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Tuesday, August 18, 2009

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Jamie Moyer with a big FU to everyone tonight. You know he has to feel good. Maybe the demotion will light a new fire in him.

Gotta look forward to Lee vs. Haren tomorrow.

I liked the original header about misleading with slop...

Well, it was a good win, indeed.

Still, there are things I wish they'd improve.

Bases loaded, no outs, no runs = not acceptable.

This is the second or third time in the last week they've come up empty.

They had an opportunity to answer the HR in the first, and possibly demoralize the other team out of the box and they didn't get it done.

It's a wonder Charlie can sleep at night.

Well I made the suggestion when Pedro was acquired ( I was against this acquisition) but even then I saw the wisdom of having these two collaberate on a game--neither can complete by himself.
I hope this will become a useful model for the future.

kilbillrain:

"Moyer misleads D-Backs with dizzying dose of slop"

There....that's better.

yeah, maybe the original is better.

What's amazing about Moyer is that he can make the same teams look bad time after time after time and they never catch on.

JW, re headline:

Sometimes you just have to trust your first instincts.

One good appearance does not a season of mediocrity undo.

Len39, and FU?

The biggest FU he could have given them was to pitch well enough in the first place making it difficult/unnecessary to pull him from the rotation.

Look, I've gone on some of the biggest rants of anyone here defending Moyer from the haters, but loquil is correct.

He was, at best, mediocre up until the time he got moved to the pen.

Moyer did his thing tonight making a statement.

Moyer pitched well tonight. But let's not get carried away guy. Moyer pitches well against the young teams. He didn't make any statement tonight. If anything he showed that everytime he takes the hill isn't a gaurenteed 4 runs.

Joe Mauer with 3 more hits tonight. He's hitting .383.

Well, it was a good win, indeed.
Still, there are things I wish they'd improve.
They have to secure more run.


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I guess Jamie is damned if he does and damned if he doesn't.

Who said Moyer can't pitch out of the pen?!? That was the best single outing I've seen from him since he became a Phillie, plus offensively, his on-base percentage led the team! Great work tonight Jamie!

mvptommy continues his unwavering bashing of Moyer. If this wasn't a 'statement' that he is still a useful part of this club, what the hell would be good enough?

"He can only do well against young clubs?" That's terrific, because the Marlins are our main competition right now. How can that be considered trivial?

Did i miss the best night ever on beerleaguer? The phillies leave the bases loaded with no outs in the first without scoring, pedro pitches until a rain delay, and is pulled and replaced by moyer, who he replaced in the rotation, and moyer pitches 6 innings with 5 k's?

Can't believe i missed those comments

Hell of a performance from Moyer tonight. The old man showed he can still pitch, thats for sure. If your "long reliever" can give you six innings of shutout ball, you have a very good ball club on your hands.

Clout, how was Jon Garland tonight? I was at the Nats-Rockies game, so I didn't get to watch the Phils, but it looks like he gave up 11 hits and 5 runs in 5 innings and took the loss.

Is there another poster here, or anyone in the world, who would advocate trading J.A. Happ for Jon Garland? Anyone?

Reading highlights while killing time at the airport to catch up on the Phils the past 2 weeks and not surprised in the least that Moyer was able to throw up 6 spotless against them. They have a lineup with some real hackers right now and have had a bad tendency to just mentally quite in games including the last series the Phils played them in AZ.

Clout has some kind of twisted man love for John Garland. He argued in March that Garland was still a better pitcher than Joe Blanton.

I hope this performance by Moyer will trigger the resurgence of lefty gamers Cole and Raul AND keep Rollins playing small ball when necessary. Moyer now has an OBP higher than Jimmy.

Moyer was an ineffective starter, but proved effective out of the pen.

Park was an ineffective starter, but proved effective out of the pen.

Why is it that when Moyer has a good outing, it's a "statement", but when Park does it, it's proof that he's where he always belonged in the first place?

Contradiction that unreasonably favors the much older man, no?

Spitz: thanks for answering my Strasburg question. i couldn't find the answer anywhere.

no doubt moyer had a great outing and he deserves all the credit. don't forget two things. 1) the d-backs are that young team that struggles against a pitcher who knows what he's doing out there, kind of like the marlins used to be. 2) the ump was calling corners for both Garland and Moyer - Moyer usually pitches well when he gets those calls. I think the looming rain made the ump want to move this game along a bit. that's not to take anything away from moyer, but watching the game it was obvious to me. more than any other pitcher, the ump dictates how moyer does most of the time.

Common, stop trying to make sense.

You'll confuse too many people here.

after hearing a lot of people post about moyer's lack of smile and demeanor tonight, i just watched both the moyer and pedro interviews on comcast.com. pedro is so much more lighthearted and fun to listen to, he could have been pissed that UC didn't bring him back in the game, but he's not. moyer's interview was like his dog got hit by a car. i wish moyer would get whatever it is out of his rear end.

The plate was bigger than usual last night after the rain, I agree. The at-bat that sticks in my mind in particular was Ryal getting struck out looking in the seventh on a fastball that looked to be a good two or three inches inside.

As for Garland, he went upstairs when he had to (which seems to be Howard's other kryptonite). Of course we helped him with some classicly-poor situational hitting, but he did a good job in general of pitching out of jams.

Would I trade Happ for Garland straight up? Eh, maybe. One thing's for sure though: any pitcher is better with a defense behind him that doesn't drop fly balls, and doesn't dive for balls only to hit it with their heads. Garland seems to have a legit complaint with their defense.

The New York Times article today reports that Moyer was despondent after the win. Jamie pitched great but if you are that despondent after a win, you ain't a team player.

WTF is his problem? 'Despondent'? I'm sorry, he's got that guaranteed second year on his contract, that should be enough for him to just do his job already.

In fairness to Jamie, that article doesn't have any quotes, just the 'despondent' label.

blimey, the article says he "sounded despondent", not that he "was" despondent.

There is a significant difference between the two.

Either of them is open to interpretation by the writer. If Moyer was talking in a subdued voice, which I have seen him do during several interviews - he's never been a 'rah rah' guy like Vic - then it's possible a writer from NY who had never covered him before could misinterpret what he sounds like.

If I read something to that effect in the Philly rags - from the guys that cover Moyer every day - I'll be more inclined to believe it.

Moyer has already told us literally that he is not happy about moving to the 'pen.

As such, I don't expect him to get hugely excited or animated about his first relief appearance.

He never did about his starts either.

Cut him some slack - he's earned it.

i cant believe Howard didnt hit that ball out in his last AB.

He better hit two tonight.

NYT article says that Pedro's next start is Sunday at Bailout Park.

Road trip, anyone?

blimey, thanks for the heads up.

Nice to see the defending WFC get some positive press in other cities. It's a good article on out guys, and worth the read.

Here's the link:

Phillies Enjoying the View From Atop N.L. East


Howard hit a couple shots I thought were gone last night. Maybe if it's not raining, they go. He either needs to catch up to those high fastballs or lay off of them, because right now, teams have two ways to get him out, and that doesn't bode well for him or the team.

loquil, I thought the same thing, and so did the guys with whom I was watching the game.

No rain = no heavy ball = 2 Howie HR.

If Moyer played this right, he'd still be the hero in Philly.

Being a sore loser is a good way to make the fanbase turn on you...

Either way, it was great for him to save the BP like that and will Lee on the mound today, they should get another day off if everything goes well. This starting depth will start to translate over into a much better BP that is rested and continue to have a domino effect down the stretch as we face teams that are running out of steam.

I like Jamie Moyer, because without him we wouldn't have a WFC to look back on with fondness.

I also respect and support him.

But - this line from Lauber's blog pretty much says it all about his performance this season:

"Moyer threw only 69 pitches, retired 18 of 20 batters and lasted longer in his first relief appearance since 2004 than he did in all but four of his 22 starts this season."

Key part: "lasted longer...than he did in all but four of his 22 starts".


If Jamie is upset about being sent to the pen, I sympathize with him.

But really, he only has himself to blame.

RSB -

Marlins caught on.

Martinez was a class act after the game, I've gotta say. He seems determined to win over the fans and his teammates. He's humble, self-deprecating, generous, enthusiastic — and fun. Make a note, Moyer. Good game last night, but wow, you're a mope.

Franzke thought those two Howard fly balls were gone at first too..

Dang, awh, I live in Brooklyn and would love to see Pedro at Citi, but I'm out of town.

if moyer weren't born in my hometown of sellersville he'd be a lot easier not to like. oh, and all that charity work, too. ahh, and he had 16 winds with a 3.71 era for the WFC's last year. there's just too much good will to overcome!

The bullpen threw a lot of innings early in the season. I find it ironic that two of the main causes of that are now in there with them.

NYT: "They have won six of seven and hold a four-and-a-half-game lead over second-place Florida — comfortable, though hardly impervious — with just over a quarter of the season remaining."

Really? Comfortable? Is anyone here comfortable?

I haven't been comfortable all season, especially when the Phils, every once in a while, throw in a game like the one against Atlanta this past Saturday.

A bit off topic, but what is happening with Kyle Drabek? No news about him since the trade deadline storm.

Overconfidence.. complacency.. a Phillies fan seeks not these things.

The strikezone was a point I forgot to make. It was the most charitable one I've seen this season.

Moyer looked like he had a real chip on his shoulder last night. But if that's what he needs to pitch well, so be it. Maybe we could send Hamels to the bullpen next. Nice to know if we get an injury down the stretch, we have depth.

"what is happening with Kyle Drabek? No news about him since the trade deadline storm."

his last outing he went 4.2, gave up 5 hits, 2 runs, both earned, 2 BB, 7 K's. He pitches again on thursday.

Drabek's b-ref page: here.

In re: Moyer
All it took for him to pitch well was knowing that he actually can be replaced - even after turning 46 and having sort of a career year in 2008 - and pitching with a huge strike zone to kids who have never seen him before. If we can just duplicate those conditions every five days...

Lidge looked GOOD last night.

""" there's just too much good will to overcome!"""

Dukes, I agree completely.

If Moyer haters are going to let on five minute speech to the media erase everything he's done for this team and everything he's done in the community, then they really need to look at themselves in the mirror.

Or get out of town.

Andy, I too thought it was one of Lidge's better performances.

I suggested they use Jamie every 5 days to pick up where Pedro leaves off. Neither one can go very far in games. B/T the 2, we have a good 5th starter. The weather forced it this time. Perhaps Charlie will plan for it next time.

Nothing beats a zero-pitch save from Lidge -- lights out!

As far as Drabek, I am going to bet they really watch his innings until the season is over. They are not going to want him to pitch too many this season.

Many questions before this season were raised about Werth's ability to be the lone right handed power bat in the lineup and whether or not he could handle it. I would say he has done so extremely well and he has been the 3rd most important everyday player in the lineup, especially for adding balance, behind Utley and Ibanez. I also am a fan of keeping the lineup like it has been with Werth 5th and Ibanez 6th.

I agree with Moyer being Pedro's designated reliever. For teams that Moyer normally dominates, they should switch roles, with Jamie starting and Pedro finishing. They could be a tag team. Pedro came up with the name. They could be "The Old Goats". In fact, Cholly could just list the "Old Goats" as the starter, then announce who is starting just before the game begins.

Cholly should also dangle the Moyer demotion in front of Colbert, threatening a stint in the pen with Jamie taking Colbert's spot unannounced. Cholly could say to Colbert, "Colbert, you're being demoted because pictures surfaced with you behaving like a girlie man; walking around in public with some sort of backpack dog carrier with a little wiffle dog in the backpack. Off to the pen with ye!"

Apparently Moyer is still visibly upset about his bullpen assignment. Beat writers Todd Zolecki and Scott Lauber described him demeanor as "dour" and "sour" after the game last night.

Moyer was awesome, but he needs to cheer up. He said he didn't want to be a distraction, but sulking around like that he'll soon become one.

****As far as Drabek, I am going to bet they really watch his innings until the season is over. They are not going to want him to pitch too many this season****

I doubt he goes much above 150. Pulling him in the 5th when he was cruising along makes it seem as if this is the case. He'll only get a couple more starts at best and then likely be shut down for the year.

"My God, Pedro has tagged out...Moyer from the top rope! There's the pin!"

****Moyer was awesome, but he needs to cheer up. He said he didn't want to be a distraction, but sulking around like that he'll soon become one.****

He can sulk all he wants if he gives us 6 shutout innings every 5th day out of the Pen.

Still, cheer up Jamie, you're still getting paid to play baseball.

The old goat combo idea seems to have become the prevailing wisdom of the fan base. Only glitch will be if hte starter falls behind, the reliever wouldn't likely pitch beyond his first appearance in the batting order. On balance, I'd like to see Pedro get stronger and go 6 or 7. He looks like he still has the stuff to get guys out. Still,the combo worked wonderfully yesterday.

Jack: Garland was about what you'd expect from a guy brought back after sitting for an hour and 40 minute rain delay. The D'backs gave up 9 runs each of the previous 2 nights and could not afford to go to the bullpen early for a 3rd straight game, so Garland took the hit.

On the season he is what he always is, a pretty good back-end starter with a 103 ERA+, a pitch-to-contact guy who plays for one of the worst defensive teams in baseball.

And, BTW, to correct your latest lie, it was Conlin who suggested the possible trade of Happ for Garland, not I. I simply defended it as not being an outrageous idea (although that was 3 great Happ starts ago so it's looking more outrageous by the minute.)

People, like you, who've said Garland is a crappy pitcher are ignoring the stats. I'd love to see what the guy could do with a decent defense behind him.

Pedro was cruising at 38 pitches through 3 IP. There's no reason to think he couldn't have gone 6 innings had it not rained.

The Pedro/Moyer two-headed monster for the fifth slot is a huge mistake. I don't care what you saw last night. Jamie had over thirty minutes to warm up. It's impossible to give him that amount of time during a game; there's just too many things that can happen in that space of time.

Let Pedro give you all he can give you and play with a conventional bullpen after him. Let Moyer do what he did last night, which is come in to give you innings in rain delays and starts when your pitcher gets shelled and you have a good idea you're going to pull him and can allow Jamie to warm up.

If I had a plate as big as last night's, Old Country Buffet would throw me out.

mikes77: Is this lie day or something? I never said that. What I said was that Garland and Blanton are basically the same pitcher, careerwise.

Blanton career ERA+: 102
Garland career ERA+: 104

Don't let the facts bite you in the ass on the way out, troll.

Re: Drabek. yeah NEPP I think your right, his outings have gotten shorter and shorter each time out at least since his last 3. Yeah I think he'll go about 4 till the end of the season, he would only have about 4 or 5 more starts till the season ends.

Dour is a good description of Moyer's post-game comments. That's a shame but you can't dictate that everyone act happy. In shots of the bullpen, he looks like he's engaging with his teammates, so that part looks ok.
I don't have the time to research but my observation has been that Moyer pitches better with extra rest. He had a lot before yesterday (in addition to a friendly strike zone and a hacktastic opponent).

Dukes: "he could have been pissed that UC didn't bring him back in the game."

You're joking right?

Don't know if anyone saw this on Brody Colvin:

"The Phillies upped their final offer from $750,000 that Colvin turned down a few days ago to $900,000 on Monday morning. At the time Philadelphia called Colvin, he was in freshman orientation on the LSU campus about to get his student identification card and about to likely become a new member of LSU’s weekend starting rotation in 2010.

Meanwhile, at Alex Box Stadium on Monday morning, Mainieri was having Colvin’s nameplate placed over his new locker.

“I had to take Brody Colvin’s name down,’ Mainieri said Tuesday at a press conference at Alex Box Stadium. “He was a lock. He was an absolute lock for coming to school here. It’s so frustrating. Literally, Monday morning, I was convinced that Brody Colvin was coming to LSU. The kid was literally in freshman orientation. By Monday afternoon, he was on his way to Philadelphia. It’s incredible.”


Good Work Rube!

****I don't have the time to research but my observation has been that Moyer pitches better with extra rest. He had a lot before yesterday (in addition to a friendly strike zone and a hacktastic opponent).****

I think his career numbers indicate otherwise...that he actually does worse on extra rest. Of course things tend to change when you're 46.

Clout: You're exactly right that Garland is a fine league-average pitcher. Which is why trading Happ for him would be a terrible idea. Happ has already been above league-average, and even if he regresses somewhat (which I think we certainly both expect), it is completely reasonable at this point to assume his baseline level is better than Garland's right now. Then you consider their respective ages and figure who projects to be better over the next few years, and it's not even close.

Jack: Well, it will certainly be interesting to watch how it plays out, won't it?

We'll know how good Happ really is next year when people have a full off-season and plenty of tape to break him down.

I'd rather have Happ than Garland...if only from a cost standpoint. Unless the argument is that 26 year old Garland would be a better bet than 26 year old Happ...is that the comparison being made?

Yeah, should be.

I would have to say, even if for your sake I'm excluding real-world factors like budget and contracts in my above argument, that if Amaro, in the real world, ever seriously comtemplated trading 4 and half more years of Happ at age 26 for a year and half of Jon Garland at 30 and being paid 7.25 million this year and 10 million next year, he should be fired on the spot.

Funny thing is that Moyer was this shaman, professor, ageless wonder, darling that had this major respect from everyone even up until a few weeks ago. "he owned the marlins" etc. His press conference seemed to divide the camps into 'he's a cry baby' or 'this was just wrong'. One thing this forced me to do was revisit his 08 playoff stats-
Division Series- Loss- 4.5 ERA 4.0 IP
Championship Series- Loss- 40.50 ERA (?!?) 1.1 IP
World Series- ND- 4.26 ERA 6.1 IP (actually his best performance- and Phils ended up winning his start)

But I think for me, the fact we won allowed me to forget that he wasn't even that effective last fall. Sure he had a bunch of wins and we wouldn't have made the post-season last year w/o those wins, blah blah blah.

Bigger question i had today- "who was that guy wearing the moyer jersey pitching last night?" had he looked like that all year, we wouldn't even be so occupied with him right now.

Moyer was despondent because he always visits BL and knew his solid effort would be dismissed as only being due to the D'backs age and the home plate ump.

NEPP: No, the argument is Happ now vs. Garland now. The problem is Clout doesn't understand things like budget and value, so he doesn't see how much more valuable Happ is because he's controlled for 4 more years and is being paid nothing, while Garland is owed 10 million next year and then is a free agent.

Extra rest or sand in his vagina, either way I saw Moyer hit 84(!!) on the gun a couple of times last night.

I really can't see how getting $10m at age 46 to continue to pitch, at an age when most players are running car dealers or restaurants (or defrauding invstors on Wall Street), he has any right to complain about being in the bullpen. They need a month to see what Pete Angry brings to the table, and Jamie needs to go to the BP to let them do that.

"We'll know how good Happ really is next year when people have a full off-season and plenty of tape to break him down."

Well, if his BABIP rises, be prepared to learn from the likes of LakeFred and others that Happ's struggles are due his suddenly becoming a pussy.

Jack: You could adequately defend that trade by the following: you don't know what you're going to get out of Happ, the window during which you have the bulk of your core under contract is two years after this one, and you can take on salary due to increased ticket sales, possible post-season appearances, and people coming off the books (built-in raises notwithstanding).

That's hardly a fireable offense.

Jack: It is true, that unlike you, I really don't care about ownership's profits. I just look at the quality of the players. Far more interesting to me.

****Extra rest or sand in his vagina, either way I saw Moyer hit 84(!!) on the gun a couple of times last night****

Yeah, he was a tick up on his last couple starts:

He hit 83.8 on his hardest pitch last night compared to 83.6 in his previous start and 81.8 in the start before that. His velocity charts on Fangraphs have this as the upper part of his velocities this year. He was definitely airing it out last night.

Is the more important storyline who's the team's 5th starter (aka the guy sitting on the bench in October or in this year's case November) or the lineup's incompetence at hitting with RISP?

Moyer's pouting makes for a nice discussion and all but ultimately these guys need to figure out how to get someone in from third base w/o going yard if they want to advance in the playoffs

Fangraphs is the ultimate nerd site.

Not that I want it to continue, but they did okay in the World Series despite a general inability to hit with RISP, didn't they?

Good pitching makes up for a multitude of sins.

Clout: It's still a business. The Phillies along with everyone else have a budget. If owners of sports teams couldn't make any money then there wouldn't be an MLB or NFL or NBA and it's why the NFL Europe folded and the WNBA won't last forever. We'd all have to go down to the local fields and watch an American Legion team play to get our baseball fix.

JBird: And yet, improving the product on the field adds to your success. Added success means more customers. More customers adds more money, which gets funneled back into improving the product...

Welcome to the big boy business model.

Does anyone know, is Antonio Bastardo dead or deported? Didn't he go on the DL for a little arm strain? What happened?

On Garland, he gives up at least 2 fewer runs with some decent defense behind him. His left fielder needs to get a tatoo for "don't be so stupid you moron."

Just so we are crystal clear on my stance. Do I like Moyer? Yes. Do I think Pedro deserves a shot because of Moyer's performance this year? Yes.Now is the part where BLer gets confused about my stance. Did Moyer make a statement pitching 6 scoreless innings against a team with NO offense other than Mark Reynolds? No. Also, what happened to the Moyer that said " No one is above the game" and "No one should be a distraction". Hmmm, guess 1 bad break for Moyer and those quotes of his don't apply anymore.

Loqiel: That's true. Are you arguing the Phillies haven't done that? Or, that pitching Jon Garland instead of Happ would help sell 10 extra of those $15 standing room only seats, the only one's usually available this year? There is such a thing as diminishing returns.

Welcome to the logic-based business model!

Bastardo really does seem to have disappeared. It's easier to get info about prisoners in Gitmo, than a Bastardo update. I'm working under the assumption that he's done for the year with "not as good as Tommy Hanson Syndrom", also known as arm soreness.

Re: Garland

I agree with clout. When we went up against him in AZ I thought he was pitching a pretty decent game until his defense threw it away for him. You could see it on his face when he left the game.

I thought he may have been the Blanton-type of deadline signing that many of us expected, and it would have been interesting to see how he would fare with a decent defense. Seems like a change of scenery would do him a world of good.

Last nite he was definitely taking one for the team, and he at least could turn his back on his defense while pitching.

Re Bastardo:

Two weekends ago Scott Proefrock, on the radio pregame with Jim Jackson said he was rehabbing in Clearwater and targeting availability in September, I think.

Happ's start the other night in Atlanta was his 4th start against the Braves, 2nd this year.

Guess the Braves will need two offseasons and lots of tape to figure him out.

There's nothing wrong with Jon Garland as a #3 or 4 pitcher. I don't think he's going to get better now that he's on the other-side of his peak years. Garland's the safer (more expensive) bet to hit his career avg. while Happ is a wildcard with more upside (and downside) and a longer period of control. If Garland's a free agent do you sign him. Sure, he'd be helpful. Do you give up a lot for him in a trade, no, probably not more than a couple B-grade guys a few years from the bigs.

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