Part of

« Lee trade discussed; Phillies-Diamondbacks tonight | Main | Making room: Happ’s loss could be bullpen’s gain »

Thursday, July 30, 2009


Yeah but we got Cliff Lee so all in all, the day balanced out.

Petit had some really solid minor league numbers. Guess the team was in a post-Cliff Lee trade stupor. . . .

Speaking of Cliff Lee, Why do Jason Stark and Phil Sheridan have articles out about how disappointed Phillies fans are about getting Lee instead of Halladay? Did they talk to any fans before writing these articles? Everyone I know thinks the deal was pretty awesome. I think they just made it up.

I think the poll I saw had a 97+% approval of the deal....I'm assuming Eskin was the other 3%.

I have not yet talked to anyone who thought it was a bad deal. Everyone seems to think we hosed Cleveland...including most of Cleveland's fanbase.

Lee will join the club today.

Meh. Even good teams have clunkers and get shut out. So what.

They took 2 of 3 in AZ, and beat Danny Haren. Not too shabby.

If I had told you before the series that that would be the outcome you would have thought that was OK.

The only disappointment about last night was that, on paper, the pitching matchup seemed to favor the Phillies.

Then again, Roy Halladay lost yesterday in Seattle to Ryan Rowland-Smith. Who?

Sweet...I assume Francisco will too...since he likely needs to be in the lineup today in place of Vic...Well Werth to CF, Francisco to RF.

NEPP, my thinking exactly.

Let's turn on the afterburners, Phils. Now's the time to leave the rest of the NL East in the dust.

JBird, Hagan even has a column titled calling Lee a "consolation prize", though he tries to disabuse readers of that notion.

I posted this Hardball Times link on the thread last night/this morning, but apparently Halladay hasn't been that much better than Lee the last couple of seasons.

""Before you say that Halladay is better than Lee, compare their runs saved above replacement since the start of 2009: 117 for Halladay and 108 for Lee (source: FanGraphs). That's pretty darn close, and not big enough to make up the difference between what the Indians got and what they could have got, assuming the rumors are at least close to true."

Link here:

Was the Cliff Lee trade really a win-win?

There will always be the naysayers, some who do it just to be contrarian.

To answer your question this way: Do you think Phil Sheridan talks to anyone, or does he just listen to sportstalk and take notes on the callers who support his viewpoint?

Now that you've mentioned it, I'll have to go read the article, but do you really pay attention to Sheridan anyway?

i've stayed up for about every westcoast game this year except this one, i picked a good one to miss.

re: vic questionable

isn't francisco a CF option as well? I thought he was a good CF but just not enough to replace Sizemore..that true or am i mistaken?

Bodley writes a good column supporting the trade, it's on

Vic had a couple of defensive catches that were tough on his legs lately. Last night's and the other day he caught a spike on the chain link fence at CBP and came up hurting.I hope it's nothing a little rest wont cure. Plus side - we get to see how Ben Franklin ( I mean Francisco) plays right away.

Damn, shutout at the hands of some dude with a 7+ ERA and some team 15 games under .500. Ah, who gives a spit? The Phils took the series from the D'backs and got Cliff Lee yesterday. Seriously, life is good. Time to take our 6 game lead in the NL East and head over to San Fran for a nice 4-game treat with the Giants.

I never listen to sports radio, but on the way home from work I felt compelled to get the latest updates and commentary. Eskin and Missanelli were on the two channels at the time. Both did not like the trade. Eskin was just a blow hard with comical responses about Lee's W/L record this year and his "flash in the pan" one year that made him Cy Young Winner. Absolute moron. Mike M actually likes Lee, thought the Phillies gave up less than expected, but kept focusing on "if you can get Halladay, anything short of that is second place". He's in the camp that Halladay is far and away better than Lee, not because Lee is average or anything, but because Halladay is that good. He said that we could of made a deal to get him, therefore we should have made the deal. He said he felt let down after thinking for two weeks we were getting Halladay, and then we didn't get him.

From what I understand, this was the general sentiment on Philly sports radio for the whole day, and of course, if that's what the blowhards are saying (and focusing the on air discussion towards), that must be what the fan base thinks. I also read some blogs (like the 700level) that relayed the same sentiment.

NEPP: Was thinking as well that Francisco may just get the start tonight, his first day in a Phils uniform.

I'm still juiced over this trade, and love the fact when I checked the minor league box scores this morning, I still saw Brown and Taylor, and will see Drabek when he pitches again. Just an awesome job by Rube.

I didn't get to see the entire game last night, but just looked like a game where the Phils didn't have it at all. Petit did have some pretty nasty breaking pitches that he managed to throw for strikes too. And it seemed everytime the Phils hitters were waiting on the offspeed pitch, he was able to throw a fastball for the strike. Tip of cap to him.

It's amazing how things in baseball can change in a week.

Missanelli was whining the last couple of weeks that the Phillies had to get Halladay to match up with the Giants Linececum/Cain/Johnson in a short series.

Now Johnson is hurt, and Colorado in neck-and-neck with the Giants.

We'll see how that plays out.

Can we still trade Happ and Drabek for Halladay?

With Vic hobbling, maybe Mayberry survives again for a few more days.

Send Kendrick and Register back down (neither one is going to pitch anyway) to make room for Lee and Franklin. Lopez (if he isn't traded in the next 2 days) becomes the long-man after his start tonight.

Plus, with Lee, Hamels and Blanton now in the rotation, there truly isn't a need for that many relief pitchers in a bullpen. Those guys are 7+ inning horses almost everytime out.

Its time now, to start giving some of these everyday horses that Cholly has been rolling out there every day, to give them some rest. That's Werth. That's Ibanez. That's Utley. And, that's Vic.

When Vic is completely healthy, then maybe RFD goes back down and another reliever can be called back up (or Pedro will be called up by then).

"Can we still trade Happ and Drabek for Halladay?"

No. This isn't fantasy baseball.

Any other trade (which isn't likely, unfortunately) should be for a late inning option/replacement down the line this year for Lidge.

That is still the #1 issue going forward, Lee or not.

I still find it hard to believe the Phils would take Happ out of the rotation, as was suggested in JW's initial post.

SmokyJoe, take a look at the link I posted.

Halladay is clearly the better pitcher.

Since 2005:

Halladay - 75-31, 3.02 ERA, 981 IP, 1.097 WHIP, 4.49 K/BB, 6.6 K/9

Lee - 66-36, 3.77 ERA, 875 IP, 1.282 WHIP, 2.89 K/BB, 6.3 K/9

The question to be answered though is who is better for the Phillies, given the urgency to win now and the prospects they would have had to give up for Halladay?

Tony D: If the Phillies wanted to trade Drabek (+ or - Happ) they would have already done so. They dealt for Lee precisely because it meant not trading Drabek.

Not to mention salary issues and such.

the DNL guys had an interesting question yesterday: who is the playoff closer, Lidge, Myers, or Pedro? They all said Lidge, but the idea of Pedro as a closer is interesting.

Yeah yeah, it's not going to happen and it's make believe, but it's still an interesting idea, seeing as we have an overload of starters now.

Do you know if there's going to be a press confrence for Lee today?

Happ isn't coming out of the rotation. They messed it up once with the Chan Ho experiment.

Like I said, before Pedro even signed. He will be a bullpen arm.

I'm very happy with this trade but even though we may feel it is a great deal for us, I am worried that some of these prospects are better than we think. Cleveland once landed Sizemore, Lee, and Brandon Phillips in the same trade for an ace, Bartolo Colon. They know what they are doing from a talent evaluation standpoint. I'd still do this deal in a heartbeat but just something to think about.

timr - It does seem ridiculous that Happ would be the guy to come out of the rotation, but really, what other move is there to make? You can't move Moyer; there's just no way you can put a 46-year old guy in the bullpen and expect him to pitch potentially every second or third day. Pedro is going to get a look, and it'll be as a starter at least initially. So with Pedro and Lee coming in, that's two spots to free up. Lopez is obviously one, and Happ makes the most sense as the other one. Also, considering the injuries in the bullpen and the success Happ had earlier in the year, he could shore up the pen for the time being. If Pedro doesn't work out, the investment is small enough that the Phils can cut their losses without a second glance.

Too much pitching - it's a blessing, not a curse.

AL: The prospects are good. But the Phils have such a deep system that those good prospects still weren't the best they have.

Actually, if you look at the stat lines I posted for both Halladay and Lee above, one could ask the question this way:

Halladay is clearly the better pitcher, but - assuming the Jays would have taken Carrasco, Knapp, Donald and Marson WITH THE ADDITION OF HAPP for Halladay(not true, I know) - would it be worth giving up JA Happ to get Halladay instead of Lee?

Anyone worried about Shane? Seems like this could be a serious injury?

If Derek Lowe and Tim Wakefield could do it in Boston (become a swingman) then JA Happ can do it. He's assured a spot in next year's rotation either way. He's a team guy and he'll be fine. He went from starting in ST to relieving back to starting with no issues. He's a gamer.

BaySlugga: X-rays were negative and it seems the knee is just sore. What makes you worried?

****Halladay is clearly the better pitcher, but - assuming the Jays would have taken Carrasco, Knapp, Donald and Marson WITH THE ADDITION OF HAPP for Halladay(not true, I know) - would it be worth giving up JA Happ to get Halladay instead of Lee? ****

Yes...but they refused that offer so Rube did the right thing.

Rube pulled a Theo Epstein and kept his best prospects to win now and win later.

You have to figure they take one of the lefties out of the rotation (Happ/Moyer) to make room for the righty (Pedro). There is no way they can carry 4 lefties on their rotation. They have no other option but to put Happ in the Pen (but only until Pedro implodes.)

Josh, Hamels and Moyer both have reverse splits so the 4 Lefties thing is way overblown.

bayslugga - there is not a break or fracture, just a bruise and soreness, which was caused by diving on the ground. Seems to be an external injury which would lead me to believe it isn't serious at all.

****8:37am: SI's Jon Heyman (Twitter link) says the Dodgers declined the Blue Jays' request for Halladay and are moving on to Orioles closer George Sherrill.****

Music's about to stop and Ricciardi doesn't have a chair...

Red: Victorino is a guy who uses his speed. Any leg injury has to be a red flag - he came up very limp.

I doubt he will play this weekend. Hello Ben Fransisco.

Bruised knee might keep him out for the SF series but they don't tend to be very serious in the long-term. Good thing we have a very good 4th OF to fill in, eh?

AL, Amaro said in an interview that:

"We gave them four very, very good baseball prospects, and that hurts," Amaro said. "But when you are talking about players of Cliff Lee's ilk, and Ben Francisco, when you want to acquire talent, you have to give talent."

You're right - the Indians do seem to know how to evaluate talent, but I think Amaro as much as said so, because all four guys that the Phils sent to Cleveland have the chance to play at the MLB level in some capacity.

Donald and Marson can contribute, Donald probably as a utility IF and Marson as at least a backup catcher, but Carrasco, if he ever figures it out, could be a #2-3 starter. Knapp, who Shapiro said was the key to the deal, throws 95+ in the 7th inning. The scouts say he has the potential to be a #1 starter.

So, if everything works out well for the Tribe, four years from now Knapp and Carrasco could be the top two guys in their rotation, and Donald and Marson could be contributing as backups.

That's not a bad haul - even for a Cliff Lee.

This is Gammons closing line on the Lee trade:

"When you are the Phillies, Yankees or Red Sox, you think about next year. When you're Cleveland or Tampa, you think "next window.""

I don't know about that. The Yanks and Sawx can afford about an extra $40-100 million in salary more than the Phillies can. Pretty significant difference. I think he missed the point that The Phillies are in their "window" so they are trying to maximize it. Feels weird being grouped in with the Yankees and Red Sox.

Rolo, if I'm reading you correctly, then we are in perfect agreement. We got the second best available pitcher, a solid #1/#2 horse who leads the AL in innings pitched, and got him for 50% less salary than Halladay, and arguably half as much in total prospects value. This move allows more flexibility for the payroll next year to fill-in the gaps and they won't have to let Blanton go now, which they probably would have needed to if they signed Halladay. Next year's rotation sets up as Hamels/Lee/Blanton/Happ/#5, which looks mighty good on paper. They still have Drabek for either 2010 or 2011, and the same with Brown & Taylor. That allows them to let Werth and Lee walk after next year, and get 4 top picks in return, and have more payroll flexibility, and have another top OF ready to come in when Ibanez either gets hurt, retires, or becomes a below standard player by that third year.

And on top of that, we're going to the playoffs, and the move keeps our odds of repeating to be just as good as anyone else's odds in the crapshoot that is MLB playoffs.

Is Jaime Moyer going to be our highest paid pitcher next year?

SmokyJoe: I wish your post could be read on every Philly sports talk radio show as well as every baseball blog. Very concise and (IMHO) accurate.

For what it's worth, the depth chart on the Phillies site already has Rodrigo Lopez listed in the bullpen.

NEPP: "Good thing we have a very good 4th OF to fill in, eh?"

At least a competent one. FINALLY!

And, yes, Ricciardi doesn't have a chair. He's talking about keeping Halladay through 2010(posturing?) and only getting two draft picks.

Against trading him for Happ, Caraasco, Knapp, Donald and Marson, I really don't see how that helps the Jays as much in the long run, even if they are competitive next year. The draft picks they get are likely to be from big market clubs, which means there is a high potential that the 1st rounder they get is going to be low in the round.

We don't know what the conversation was, but maybe it went like this:

"JP, I have a deal in place for another #1 for these four picks [lists them]. I'll throw Happ in the deal if you give us Halladay".

"No, Rube, that's not enough. We still want the three guys I told you about."

Maybe Ricciardi thought Amaro was bluffing.

rolo: A few weeks ago people were talking about we needed Halladay to combat a Lincecum/Cain match-up. I said at the time that you can't make a move based on who you might face in the playoffs. That situation with the Giants right now is exactly why.

Much of this has been mentioned separately, but let's summarize:

David Murphy: "Veteran lefthander Jamie Moyer is not an ideal bullpen piece, and newly acquired veteran righthander Pedro Martinez signed with the intention of starting."

Bill Conlin: "Jamie Moyer will not be sent to the bullpen, no matter what. Ditto Pedro Martinez. You can't ask veteran starters to adjust to the vagaries of situational relief... Ruben Amaro Jr. gets to drive the Clydesdales this October. And if he can land a back-of-the-rotation righthander for J.A. Happ - Arizona's Jon Garland, perhaps - and toss a few B-list bodies Baltimore's way for lefthanded closer George Sherrill"

Scott Lauber: "Well, Rich Dubee said yesterday that he doesn’t view Martinez or 46-year-old Jamie Moyer as candidates to pitch out of the bullpen, and certainly, Cole Hamels, Lee and Joe Blanton have spots in the rotation.

That leaves Happ, who, after all, began the season as a reliever and could help bolster a bullpen that has been decimated by injuries "

(1) I think Happ has drawn the short straw again, and (2) the next 24+ hours may be more interesting than some of us thought instinctually following the Lee deal.

SmokyJoe, we also got a pretty good 4th OF.

I suspect that was one key to the deal for Amaro, and he should be commended for it.

He killed two birds with one stone.

And you're right. In 2012 the OF could be Brown, Taylor and Vic. With the two kids manning the corner spots, it might make it possible for them to keep Howard, who makes 20MM in 2011, and will probably get a raise from that point.

this is all PURE speculation, but still, the Phils may be able to keep the window open longer than we think.


This is Gammons closing line on the Lee trade:

"When you are the Phillies, Yankees or Red Sox, you think about next year. When you're Cleveland or Tampa, you think "next window.""

I don't know about that. The Yanks and Sawx can afford about an extra $40-100 million in salary more than the Phillies can. Pretty significant difference. I think he missed the point that The Phillies are in their "window" so they are trying to maximize it. Feels weird being grouped in with the Yankees and Red Sox."

Yeah, I agree that the Phillies aren't yet on that level of the Sox and Yankes in this sense. Payroll wise, they're still way ahead of us, because, if we don't win the world series the next 2 years, it could be hard to maintain the level of payroll they are currently at.

Halladay would have been a gamble to where they basically would need to go to the WS twice and win it once more and from there hope that they got on the Sox/Yanks level of media attention, picking up fanbase elsewhere to help make money...which would be a huge risk.

I agree, rolo. If handled correctly, and a lot has to fall into place, the window can stay open.

Deutsche, are you implying that Rube still has a couple of moves to make?

Well, I posted yesterday that the Phils had to go 37-25 to win 95 games.

Only 24 more losses to go!!! :(

Does MLBTradeRumors have the most unctuous crew of comment-ers in the the whole of the internets? Every deal is pronounced "horrible" or a "joke" or a "steal". I read them, and feels as though I'm being berated by Jim Rome.

BedBeard, whether they are competitive after THIS year will boil down to one thing - despite who the position players are: PITCHING.

I think this was the better deal for the Phillies. Halladay would make us a dominant team for the next two years. Lee gives us the potential to be a dominant team for 2-6 years because even if Lee doesn't resign we will be restocked from our farm system because we kept our best prospects in this deal. I thought the same thing when I read Stark's article. Who are these unhappy Philly fans? Everyone I talked to is ecstatic.

That should go without saying!

ROLO: I'm not sure to what extent I believe that to be the case, but the columnists (and if I read JW's prior post correctly, our esteemed leader) seem to think that is the case.

I'm not talking Halladay like some other loose nuts out there, but it's not hard to see Rube eyeing a back-end reliever is it? I wonder if he is still happy having Bruntlett on the bench, though the likelihood of him entering games in high leverage situations seems to be diminishing. Sadly, your namesake might get some very very minor value in a trade, no?

The series starting tonight is going to be big and it’s exactly why I love sports in general, and baseball specifically.

Brian Sabean has been roundly mocked for his method of building a team but the Giants currently have a nice mix of veteran talents (Renteria, Rowand, Winn) and young guys (Lincecum, Sandoval, Cain)- and they are putting together just enough offense behind strong pitching to win. They have been getting a lot of buzz of late as the team you wouldn’t want to face in the first round of the playoffs with a Tim Lincecum/Matt Cain 1-2 punch. They are currently sitting 11 games over .500. And for the next 4 games they absolutely get to see where they stand with the big boys as the World Champions come into town for a series.

This situation is very similar to what the Marlins faced coming out of the All-Star break. The Fish had a chance to make a statement about where they stand and they were swept by the division leading Phils at home. The Giants can put their own stamp on the season by taking it to the champs, and reinforce the “team you don’t want to play” label. On the other hand- if they drop 3 of 4 or get swept then the Phillies deliver the message the Giants aren’t ready to play with the big boys yet.

Pitching match-ups seem to favor the Phillies (slightly) in this with the Giants best pitcher probably getting matched against new acquisition Cliff Lee. However Zito, who will go Sunday, has been very good against the Phillies in his career. What helps the Giants here is if they can take 3 or 4, with only one of their big guns going it shows they can win with offense.

This is a huge series. I expect a dogfight all weekend and some close games. The Giants have too many veteran players to not know what these series means to their season. The Marlins failed their test. How will the Giants do on theirs?

TTI: Yeah, I'm looking forward to stomping the Giants so everyone can stop worrying about the possibility of facing them in the playoffs.

Why, Mr. Conlin, are we trading Happ for Jon Garland?

Agree with TI--a very interesting series upcoming.

Rolo - you're back in the pen. it's time to bring back awh

Klaus - don't read the comments on MLBTR. You lose an IQ point per comment read. I looked two days ago and still have not recovered.

Also from the Conlin article:

"Carlos moved to the head of the package for Cliff Lee with a minor league record of 45-44 and a 4.14 ERA compiled during six seasons less about 6 weeks. He has not had a shining season. Amaro would have faced a tough roster decision. Was the former prodigy worth a 40-man spot to keep him out of the Rule 5 draft? The Indians made his decision an easy one."

Does he really think that CC wouldn't be protected in the Rule V draft this offseason?

We have so many back-end relievers. It's too bad we can't merge some of them to create one super reliever. Perhaps Happ going to the bullpen is the BP piece everybody is talking about. Is his marginal value to the BP larger than his incremental value to the rotation? I have my doubts.

"Does he really think that CC wouldn't be protected in the Rule V draft this offseason?"

The fact that you have to think for a second about that question shows how much the Phils farm has advanced from the days when Chris Roberson was protected.

I guess it is going to be Happ in the bullpen, until Moyer or Pedro falls on their face. I am not 'Happ'y about this.

Has this thought crossed anyone's mind:

Just because they signed Pedro doesn't mean they have to bring him up.

Seriously, if he doesn't make the team better, then screw him, they owe him nothing other than money.

I think they should put Pedro and Moyer on the buddy system where they would rotate starting and relieving. This transitions both of them to the post-season role as relievers.

Edmundo: Well, I think Joel Naughton was protected last year. So we really haven't come all that far, have we?

I think that we might be getting just a little ahead of ourselves here with all the Pedro talk.

So far he's pitched an inning and a third in A ball, hit a guy, walked a guy, given up a hit and has one K.

Until he can go 6 innings in AAA with some level of success - he is a non-factor to me (and I hope to Ruben/Charlie et. al).

Right now we move Lopez to the pen (replacing Register - huge improvement), we move Lee to the rotation (replacing Lopez - huge improvement) and we replace Mayberry RFD with Francisco - huge improvement.

This is all that we know for certain, and it is all good stuff.

If Pedro can take Moyer's or Happ's spot in the rotation - then that would be a good thing as well .... I think he is going to have to earn it frankly as July becomes August - best guys are going to play in my opinion.

According to Buster Olney in his writeup this morning: "FYI: At least two other teams ranked Knapp as the best pitching prospect in the Phillies' organization, even above Kyle Drabek." I still like the trade though. Knapp won't be up for 3 years in the best of best case scenarios. . . it'll probably be more like 5 years at least.

I wish Moyer would have just retired

I like Knapp's upside more than Drabek's, but he's further away and could blow out his arm. I do think people need to relax their expectations of Drabek a little bit .

Conlin must be smoking something if he thinks there was even a 1 in 5 million chance that Carrasco would't have been protected. Our current 40-man roster includes guys like Joel Naughton, Kyle Kendrick, Andrew Carpenter, Drew Naylor, Michael Zagurski, and Brad Harman. We were gonna lose Carrasco to the Rule 5 draft because we want to protect Drew Naylor?

This series is no more important than one from April or May. Just have to stay healthy and consistent.

Am looking forward to seeing Lee and Mr. Yellow Ribbon, though.

Truth - Sabean should be largely mocked. He has had no really had no game plan for that team basically since '05 when Bonds' career was winding down and he didn't know what direction to go. Make a run for it, status quo, or rebuild.

He see-saws back on acquiring veterans (mainly by overpaying them especially positional players who don't want play there because of AT&T Park's rep as a pitcher's park) and building around youngsters.

This year is no different in that while it made sense up to upgrade their woeful bullpen (funny how Walker and Taschner were two main culprits and ended up here) with some legit veteran arms he also signed some guys to WTF kind of contracts again this year including Renteria which was almost universally panned.

moving Happ to the bullpen is simply the best allocation of available resources. the fact is that the team is suffering a lot of injuries in the pen right now, and needs a boost. if that doesn't come from a trade, then Happ simply makes the most sense. You could move Moyer to the pen and use him strictly as a long man, but that's an expensive waste of a resource for a guy whose value is best maximized by letting him start and throw 6 innings. Pedro could also go to the pen, but with him starting in the minors and being a right hander (plus statements from the team saying he will start), he makes much more sense as a starter to break up the lefties, provided he shows something in his appearances.

Moyer, though he may not be the perfect option for the 5th starter right now, is the best way to use him, as he probably wouldn't be very useful in the pen with his stuff (not to mention I question the idea of transitioning a 46 year old pitcher to spot relieving). Happ has the experience relieving and was effective in that role, and in the case of acquiring a superstar pitcher like Cliff Lee and having a HOF pitcher like Pedro Martinez waiting in the wings, it's nothing to be too sour about as it's a good problem to have, and likewise, his value in the depleted bullpen will be substantial.

JMARR- if the best guys are going to play then Lopez would be kept in the rotation and Moyer would be taken out, or Pedro would replace Moyer in the rotation if/when he comes up, and NOT HAPP.

If they want to win now, which the trade for Lee makes obvious, then the best players need to be on the field regardless of loyalty and/or star power. This means Moyer must go!

Remember when Sabean signed Jeffry Hammonds the day before the deadline for offering arbitration just so he wouldn't have to pay a 1st rd. pick?

Happ is quickly becoming a fan favorite, isn't he?

A pro in every respect.

Last points:

- It is really frustrating to see that just because of seniority you give Moyer and Pedro spots in the rotation over Happ. You can at least make a some arguments that Moyer has earned a right to stay in the rotation with a modest improvement in performance and because of what he has done. For Pedro though? I knew that when Pedro signed here that he it was going to be as a starter.

His comment the other day was classic Pedro speak - I will go the bullpen if I am put there but I won't go quietly or as a gold teammate. Pedro is about Pedro first and foremost. Means he loves to win (especially if he is out there) but he is undeniably self-centered.

By putting Pedro and Moyer in the rotation for 2 months, you have a much better chance of exhausting the bullpen then you do if you leave Happ in the rotation.

This logic of moving Happ to the bullpen to solidify it is perplexing to say the least. You take a guy who is averaging well over 6 IP/start and put in a guy like Pedro who might not make it more than 5 IP/start most nights.

More importantly, it means that either Pedro or Moyer is likely going to be your Game 4 starter in a playoff series if they both stay healthy. This is really the depressing part and kind of negates the value of the Lee trade just a bit.

I don't have a problem with Moyer staying in the rotation but I don't want him or Pedro anywhere near a start in the playoffs but that is almost certainly going to happen now.

While some things change, it is kind of disheartening to see the Phils still practicing some of their old ways including giving preference to veterans because of their "veteran presence." I really hope that Amaro gets rid of his utter fascination with "veteran presence" and "vertasility" this offseason.

I second, third, or maybe I should just say "echo" I wish that Jamie Moyer would have just retired.

Benny P - no argument from me on whether I'd start Lopez or Moyer (against anyone other than the Marlins) if our BP was lock down solid - but our BP is really in bad shape right now - and Moyer can't help the pen - Lopez can.

So in my view - that is a no brainer. Lopez to the pen.

BTY - Bako is here on "veteran presence" and I have't seen one iota to prove that he wasn't and isn't completely washed up as a MLB player. Unfortunately, he is going to be the backup catcher on the playoff roster now too.

Yeah the bullpen needs help NOW but everything the Phils do from this point forward really should be with the goal of shaping up their roster for the playoffs. Putting Happ in the bullpen doesn't address that need.

Yeah, Sabean continues to do a lot wrong -- i.e., overpaying for Renteria and Rowand, trading Alderson for Sanchez. They've had a bit of a charmed year, and it sure doesn't hurt when you have 2 starting pitchers having Cy Young caliber seasons. Still, I could easily see 2009 being a fool's gold type of situation with the Giants. Absent substantial improvements to their offense, I wouldn't be surprised if they were back to being a sub-.500 team next year.

MG: I'm looking at a team that seems to have a plan in place now. You can quibble about how he set the team up, but the fact is right now this team is 11 games over .500 and in the playoff hunt.

When you have a pitcher's park like they do you are going to have to overpay for hitting. Much like the Phillies are going to have to overpay for pitching becasue of their park reputation.

Some of those contracts will probably look worse with time, but they also have some good young guys on the cheap which help balance it out some. Plus some moves can change things as you go.

The larger point though is right now this team mix is working, whether you like it or not.

2 disagreements with above posts:
1) Halliday is the better pitcher over a 5 year period (why pick that span?) but Lee is nearly identical since 2008.
2) Why assume the Red Sox are able to assume a bigger payroll when Fenway holds almost a third less fans. Phillies can compete with anyone payroll wise. Who else selling out (45000) every game. Not even the Yanks and Mets are selling out.

BoSox and Yanks have crazy payrolls because they own their own cable networks.

MG: Why is it perplexing that Happ would solidify the bullpen? He adds a reliable arm to the bullpen (along with Lopez), whereas Moyer and Martinez aren't as well suited for the pen. Sure, you could just release Moyer or Martinez, but this is unlikely to happen. If Pedro gets lit up here in the next 2 AAA starts, then maybe the situation works itself out with him getting released.

I really like Happ a lot, but if the Phillies intend to keep Moyer, Pedro, and Happ, Happ is probably best suited go to the pen, and the most useful out of that role. And like I said before, this is a good problem to have. The situation will work itself out through performance and injuries.

"Yeah the bullpen needs help NOW but everything the Phils do from this point forward really should be with the goal of shaping up their roster for the playoffs. Putting Happ in the bullpen doesn't address that need." - MG

Quoted for truth.

MG: At some point, circumstances may force Pedro to change his mind. I'm skeptical that he has anything left as a starter. 2008 was a disaster and, frankly, he hasn't shown the ability to stay healthy in a starting role for about 4 years. With his stuff and command, though, I could see him still being a terrific closer. If pitching out of the bullpen can add another 3 or 4 years to Pedro's career, he'll do it.

TI - But he overpays for pitching time-and-time again and has struck some of the worst deals each offseason for the past several years.

Zito being the most obvious case where Sabean overbid himself by at least $30-$40M by all accounts. Morris and several other guys before that. Even last year, Sabean completely misread the market and overpaid for a host of relievers.

I bet you bottom dollar the Giants don't make the playoffs again this year and Sabean will have traded one of their better prospects to largely no available.

If he got that bat the Giants desperately needed along with Garko, then it might have been worth the gamble. Instead he kind of waffled and got a guy (Sanchez) who is an upgrade over Uribe but not a difference maker nor a badly needed source of power.

"Well, I think Joel Naughton was protected last year. So we really haven't come all that far, have we?"

Isn't Naughton supposed to be a VG defensive catcher? His numbers look like he might be able to provide Ruizian offense -- he's not ridiculous to have on a 40 man roster if the defense is that good.

"Maybe Ricciardi thought Amaro was bluffing."

Or maybe he was listening to the BL chorus demanding that Rube give him whatever he wants, immediately.

"Just because they signed Pedro doesn't mean they have to bring him up."

I was just about to post something to this effect. What do they owe Pedro besides a million bucks? Moyer may have "seniority," but Pedro's been a member of this organization for all of a couple weeks. I think at this point he would really have to be spectacular to get called up, or someone would need to get injured. In my mind you need Happ starting in the playoffs, so jerking him between the bullpen and the rotation is a bad idea (as I think someone else mentioned as well). Why not let Pedro hang out in the minors until they need him?

zp - "If Pedro gets lit up here in the next 2 AAA starts, then maybe the situation works itself out with him getting released."

You really think the Phils are just going to release Pedro if he has two rocky AA/AAA starts before coming joining the MLB club?

Pedro is going to be with the club (good or bad or both) for the rest of the year once he joins unless he ends up on the shelf due to injury.

MG: If Pedro struggles in his AAA starts, do you think the Phils will call him up?

MG: What plan suits you? In one thread you jump on a team for rebuilding. In this thread you're jumping on a team for mixing veterans and youngsters together.

I'm not saying Sabean hasn't made bad deals, all GM's do. Right now though he has a team that is performing well. They also have some contracts comnig off the books next year that will help free up some cash.

I'm not saying they will make the playoffs this year. In fact, I'd bet they are a year away. My larger point is this is a big series for them. They can either prove they belong now, or they aren't ready yet.

maybe not released, but perhaps what timr suggested that they keep him a AAA until they need him. who knows. i'm sure the Phillies have Martinez jerseys ready to sell, plus all the hoopla that went into the signing him would seem to go to waste. i guess we'll find out in a week or two!

I'm not as convinced as some here that Pedro has a reserved spot in the rotation. He was basically 5 or 6 inning pitcher the last few years anyway, so why not use him in short spurts? I think that's how he would be most effective.

The comments to this entry are closed.

EST. 2005

Top Stories


Rotoworld News

Follow on Twitter

Follow on Facebook

Contact Weitzel