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Sunday, July 26, 2009

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Blanton has not been a very impressive pitcher in day games this season. Here's hoping the Phils can keep their bats hot, & Wellemeyer cold.

Phillies are screwed if he ends up in LA.

Ozark - just like last year when the Brewers got Sabathia and we got Blanton?

Let's not discount Halladay's FNTC and alleged preference to go to a team with Spring Training in Florida. Both LA team and both Chicago teams spring down in Arizona.

Still, all of this rumors intelligence (RUMINT) is frustrating and is getting old.

Worst case scenario is he ends up a Dodger. That would be brutal..

LLOL...been a while since someone has used RUMINT (and understood it for that matter).

I am glad Rube isn't just giving in. He seems to be doing a great job of exhausting all possibilities. I think eventually it will get done due to the Phils being Halladays #1 choice and the fact their starting offer has got to be pretty close to what we are willing to give up.

Carrasco, Donald, Brown, Drabeck. Seems like fair value for Halladay.

I would doubt that the Angels would take all those guys off their big club to get Roy. Doesn't make sense.

JMARR: totally different situation. LA has quality pitching and solid hitting.

Ozark - Unless you have a time machine - there is no telling what is going to happen - could end up that Doc goes on the DL, Manny shows up with a hooker to the NLCS, we get Lee/Washburn whomever and he goes 8-0 down the stretch .... the season isn't over if we don't get Roy - you say "we're screwed", I disagree.

(don't get me wrong - if not us, I hope he ends up in the AL - but I think this is just part of the process. We have as good a chance at landing him as anyone)

That's right folks, you don't have ("what's his name?") urrr...Register to kick around anymore.

Wait, mac tonight and tohers have said the Angels don't have the talent to make an offer for Halladay. How is this possible?

Clearly the report must be a mistake then.


Who'd we bring up in place of Register?

Not if we don't get him. If LA does.

****Manny shows up with a hooker to the NLCS****

Would anyone even blink though? I mean, considering his past behavior, would the baseball new media even criticize him or would they simply go on and on about how its just Manny being Manny...and hasn't he had a great series so far?

MLBTR said, "They asked for Joe Saunders, Brandon Wood, Erick Aybar, and one (other) prospect from the Angels."

That is better than the Phillies package.

Hard to believe JA Happ is the breaking point of a deal like this. If they did'nt want to give up Potential future 30-30 Dom Brown, I would understand. Not doing this deal over Happ, bizzarre.

****Manny shows up with a hooker to the NLCS****

Ia the hoooker male, female, both?

What do you BLers think the ZOPA is?

****Is the hooker male, female, both?****

Would it even matter?

I wonder if the BJs would take a deal of Drabek, Happ, and Donald?

Thoughts?

NEPP: I'd be happy if they did. But I doubt it.

One thing I read on the Dodgers getting Halladay said 3 major leaguers would be involved from the Dodgers side. So, just based on that, they might be further apart than the Phillies if the Jays haven't moved on from asking about Kershaw.

The other "offers" make you wonder just how high the BJs value Happ. Apparently it must be quite highly if he is essentially the key to the deal.

It seems that, from what I read, the Phillies package isn't as much as what they're asking for from everyone else.

I wanted to catch up with a good question from Jack who asked on a previous link why I would say that Brown has greater power potential than Taylor, given their respective SLG stats.

First, it's not "I." My opinions are based on what I read from professional scouts as reported in BA, sickels, Scouting.com etc. So it's not "my" opinion per se.

Scouts say Taylor's swing does not generate the power that Brown does. Taylor's is a line-drive swing, Brown gets under the ball more. That could certainly change and you can certainly debate whether, on offense, a big-HR hitter is more valuable than a high average, gap power hitter.

denny b. also raises questions about their respective stats since Taylor has a higher SLG at a higher level than Brown. But he sort of answers his own question (and Jack's) by noting he realizes that Taylor is 23 and Brown is 21. To that I would only add, let's see how many HRs Dom Brown is hitting at age 23 before we conclude that Taylor has more power, shall we?

Either that, or they really value Drabek, Happ, and Brown more than most (including us).

Or those other offers are BS from Ricciardi to make Rube think "well, what he asked me was actually reasonable when looking at the other "offers"".

Who knows at this point.

Also puzzled by the exchange between thephaithful and MG over the ball flying out of CBP on a hot July/August day. thephaithful seems to be saying that it has nothing to do with the park or the weather, it's the Phillies better players.

If you look at the park's total HR stats for July and August over a period of several years (for both Phillies and foes) it becomes obvious that when the weather is hot it is a great HR park. This ought to be a moot point by now since management and the players have all said this as well.

Mike77
What makes you think its Happ thats holding up this trade and not Drabek.
They said they did not want to give up 2 pitchers

According to espn.com, it would seem like Drabek is holding it up, not Happ. Reportedly, the Phillies offered Happ, Carrasco, Taylor and Donald and it got rejected.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=4356851

Indians looking to trade Martinez. Guess we couldn't move Ruiz to back-up and cut Bako.After all we got rid of Coste to keep Bako.

I actually meant 2 pitchers of Drabek and Happ - they wanted to give Carrasco in lieu of Drabek - and I believe they were throwing in Donald and Carrasco instead of Drabek

Bako and maybe Donald for Martinez and Lee. Do it Rube!

Beard: besides that not being nearly enough, the catcher going to the indians would have to be ruiz, not bako. Actually i could see them doing that swap. Ruiz has proven he can handle a staff, plus he has the world series swagger. When's the last time the indians had a world series winner playing for them period?

I'm going to break my own rule from above, do the Phils counter-counter with Drabek, Brown, Donald, and another arm or two? And does that get it done?

mm: It was sarcasm.

Forget about Halliday. They are only going to deal the guy if they are "blown away" (aka, the Jays "fleecing" someone) by a offer. Screw em'. The Angels have laughed in their faces. So have the Yanks. They want 3 major leaguers from the Dodgers. Get freakin' real!

He is going nowhere, unless Riccardi comes back to reality.

Put your attention toward George Sherrill to shore up the REAL weakness with this team the rest of the year and a lower-level, "Blanton-type" of starter and be done with it. Add a right-handed bat either before July 31 or during the waiver period (ala Stairs) for the bench and hope Myers returns in a few weeks for the pen. Roll with that, and see how it turns out.

Keep most of your young studs (so that the team will continue to dominate the division into the next decade; while the Mets flounder around without any young players coming along) and build a kick-butt bullpen this year (which is how many teams win it all nowadays) with the best defense and best offense in baseball, and take your chances.

denny b.: Amen, brother. Amen.

Denny: Agreed.

I tend to agree with Mike77 and others that it seems strange for Happ to be the dealbreaker. Happ is no phenom--he is a 26 year old finesse pitcher, without dominant stuff or pinpoint control, who could not make the rotation out of spring training. He has pitched well, yes, and deserves mention among ROY candidates; nevertheless, Happ has virtually no track record in the big leagues. No major league team would consider 17 games started a track record UNLESS they have already decided that such a player is a complete stud, a la the Rays with respect to Evan Longoria last April (and even that move on the Rays part was perhaps ill-advised). In fact, all the evidence suggests that the Phillies have NEVER considered Happ a stud, making their sudden protectiveness of him all the more curious, and in turn undermining the claim that he actually IS the dealbreaker, here.

All this makes me wonder wonder whether the Phils think they might be able to keep Taylor AND Brown by rejecting Toronto's initial request for Drabek, Happ, and Brown. If it's true that Toronto won't make a deal without both Drabek and Happ, then it would make sense for the Phillies to leak word that they value those players just as much as the Jays do. Moreover, what if the Phils' FO agrees with Keith Law about Drabek? It would only behoove them to burnish his stock, call him untouchable, and give him up with Happ if it means keeping Brown and Taylor. The other side has to believe you're suffering enough (think about all Ricciardi's talk about how it's going to have to be painful for some team).

Toronto, of course, would seem to benefit from demanding Happ and Drabek as well, as--if the Phillies really are as high on Happ as they're acting--the Phils would then be more likely to overpay to keep him in the rotation (ie by sending three prospects in his place, for instance). This is why I agree with posters who are skeptical about any information making it's way onto Olney's, Heyman's, or Rosenthal's Twitter pages: there's no way to tell right now who the Jays really like within the Phillies system. Ultimately, I believe that Toronto will only take players that it really wants, meaning that we won't have a good sense for who they've targeted until we hear that a deal's in place.

BTW, Pete Martinez is toeing the rubber today in Clearwater.

I have to admit, its hard to actually have to root for the guy now.

But I liked what I saw from him in the WBC. He has been good in "half-season" stints the past few years, before he tired later in the season.

Love or hate Pedro, but he was and hopefully still is a hell of a competitor. Would not surprise me at all, if he pitches great ball the rest of the year.

And if the Phils like what they see, maybe another starter isn't truly needed anyway. Not saying the Pedro of 2009 is going to even remotely be the Pedro of 2000. But I have a feeling, he is going to be pretty good for the next 2 months.

Did you guys see this re: a fan killed outside the Bank?

PHILADELPHIA -- A 22-year-old man was killed in a parking-lot brawl outside Citizens Bank Park during Saturday's Phillies game, according to multiple news reports.

6abc.com said the fight began around 7 p.m. ET at McFadden's Restaurant -- located inside the ballpark -- where there was a bachelor party being held.

During the eighth inning of the Phillies' 14-6 victory over the Cardinals, the disorderly crowd of up to 30 people spilled out to Lot M at Seventh Street and Pattison Avenue, where the deadly assault occurred.

"The victim was taken to the Hospital of the University of Pennsylvania and was pronounced dead, according to 6abc.com and CBS-3. A 36-year-old injured man was taken to Methodist Hospital. He is in stable condition" MLB.com

Great for our image

Chuckles going with Stairs in RF today. He bats 6th. Cholly must want to get Stairs going, with some more AB's. He hasn't done much hitting lately, as a pinch-hitter.

Werth gets the day off. Bako behind the dish.

7 lefty's in the lineup against Wellemyer, who has been struggling.

denny b: Part of me agrees wholeheatedly. Except, i want a stud pitcher on ths team who is a #1 ace and helps relieve the bullpen every 5 days.

It's fair for a phan to worry about shipping off a bunch of prospects, but I worry less when it's for a proven stud. Moreover, I think it shows that many phans are still stuck in the pre-WFC mentality of being paralyzed by the "what could go wrong" instead of understanding that this franchise sees themselves as one of the leading organizations in the league and wants to stay on top.

2 things:

1.) How highly were Sizemore, Lee, and Phillips ranked by scouts when that deal happened a few years ago?

2.)That second deal of Happ, Taylor, Carrasco, and Donald is a pretty good deal. It's a major league arm who is ready and off to a great start in his career. A top 25 prospect from the minors according to BA. A pitcher with a supposed high ceiling and a guy who will cheaply fill a void they have next year. It sounds like Riccardi has some ridiculous demands.

Maybe he doesn't need to dump salary like Mac Tonight says.

I don't understand this "Amaro is genius" and "Amaro is hold the line" nonsense.

The initial trade demands supposedly had Riccardi wanting a package highlighted by Drabek, Happ, and Drabek. Supposedly, according the Inquirer/Daily News writers, Amaro countered with a package led by Carrasco and Donald.

I repeat it again but this is not "Amaro being a genius" or "Amaro holding the line." This is a risk-averse and poor counterproposal because it supposedly didn't contain a single item that Riccardi really wanted. Only secondary points.

This is NOT the basis of good negotiations. The only thing is really is a basically a waste of Riccardi's time.

During a negotiation, you need at least some common ground in the first counterproposal to continue negotiations in good faith. Doesn't mean you cave or that you even give a majority of their primary demands in the first counterproposal. But you have to give something of merit. Amaro didn't.

Maybe the exact terms of those deal aren't correct but I would bet they are fairly accurate. If Amaro is at all serious about trying to acquire Halladay, then he needs to make a more valid counterproposal than a package headlined by Carrasco and Donald (who arguably wouldn't even get you a Washburn-type starter).


If anything good can come out of that it's hopefully that was the guy holding the laser pointer at yesterday's game.

I'm curious if the Halladay talk is have any type of effect of the team. Does it affect them saying they can't win without acquiring him? They were cruising along and all this talk started. I can see it affecting their confidence a bit in that there's a belief they can't win it all as they are as team now. It's suck if they go on a skid because there some who actually believe that.

To me, it just sounds like the Blue Jay's have scouted the Phils' organization extensively and know exactly who our best prospects are. Riccardi is stupid for not asking for the best ones in return for one of the best pitchers in baseball, but the Phils would be stupid to give up all of our best prospects without trying to whittle it down some. It's not Happ that's holding up this deal as some believe, it's Drabek. Amaro doesn't want to give up Drabek and Brown, and I can understand that.

Think of it this way: you want the Phils to get Halladay, but secretly (or not so secretly) you hope all the prospects we send to Toronto turn out to be just OK (or even duds). It's like when you buy someone a lottery ticket as a gift--which I think is lame, BTW--you don't want them to win, do you? I mean, what kind of nightmare would that be? LOL

"That second deal of Happ, Taylor, Carrasco, and Donald is a pretty good deal."


Its a REALLY good deal, for the Jays. Using John Sickels pre-season prospect rankings, that would be the #1 (Carrasco), #2 (Taylor), #4 (Donald) and #5 (Happ) prospects in the Phils system.

Maybe the Phils should throw in Howard, Utley, Hamels and J. Weitzel while they are at it?

Sometimes, the best deals you make are the ones you DON'T make. This might be one of those cases.

Anybody want to guess the over/under on the number of times the word "Halliday" is used on the TBS broadcast today? I will say 24 times total, from pre-game to the final out.

The Blue Jays have rejected the Phillies' latest offer for Roy Halladay, a source familiar with the two teams' discussions told ESPN.com.

On Saturday -- after the Phillies informed Toronto they would not agree to a proposal that would have sent pitchers J.A. Happ and Kyle Drabek, plus outfield prospect Dominic Brown to the Jays for Halladay -- the Phillies countered with a four-for-one offer.

The Phillies took both Drabek, their top pitching prospect, and Brown, their top position-player prospect, out of the deal. Instead, they submitted an offer of Happ and their three most advanced prospects -- outfielder Michael Taylor, pitcher Carlos Carrasco and shortstop Jason Donald.

Amaro has 3 needs to fill in the next month on this team:

- Another starter
- Another RHP bullpen arm
- Right-handed bat off the bench

It probably is expecting too much (or Amaro might have to give up too much) to fill all 3 of those needs but he should be able to fill at least 2 of them.

If not, then Amaro should get his first real "fail" because Gillick the past 2 years (and even to some degree in 2006) was able to fill some of the Phils' bigger holes down the stretch through trade or internal means.

According to one baseball man who talked to Blue Jays general manager J.P. Ricciardi, the GM informed the Phillies "that's not going to work." The Blue Jays are continuing to tell the Phillies, Angels, Dodgers and other clubs inquiring about Halladay that they're only going to deal their ace if they get "wowed" by an offer.

And in the course of rejecting the Phillies' offer, they told Philadelphia GM Ruben Amaro Jr. that they're "very comfortable" keeping Halladay if they don't get what they want.

So the two teams are still a long ways away from agreeing to a package that would send Halladay to Philadelphia. Nevertheless, the sides continue to talk. And clubs that have spoken with the Philadelphia brass portray the Phillies as a team that "still wants to make this deal." They just "want [the Blue Jays] to consider other options."

However, the Blue Jays have given no indication that the price will come down. They sent their top evaluator -- assistant GM for player personnel Tony LaCava -- out to watch the Phillies' Double-A and Triple-A teams last week. And after LaCava saw Carrasco give up six runs in six innings Friday, the Blue Jays appear more dug in than ever that they're not willing to substitute Carrasco for either Drabek or Happ.

But the Phillies are holding just as firm to the stance that they would deal one of the two but not both. And their latest offer is an indication that they're working to keep the highly touted Drabek (10-2, with a 2.80 ERA, at two levels this year) out of the deal.

It's also still possible the Phillies could turn their attention to Cleveland's Cliff Lee, whom they will scout against the Mariners on Sunday. Halladay is still clearly at the top of the Phillies' list. But one baseball man familiar with their thinking says they're "trying to keep the door open" on Lee.

The Phillies also have looked into the Pirates' Zach Duke and Seattle's Jarrod Washburn. But those two appear to be only back-burner options.

hiki: There was an article in the Inky today about that very thing. Happ specifically is profiled.
http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/phillies/20090726_Inside_the_Phillies__Trade_talk_has_impact_in_clubhouse.html

Optimuspun has some interesting and insightful thoughts. But I have to disagree about Happ. No, he may not be such a great pitcher in the long run, but I'd certainly rather see him be our fourth starter in a postseason rotation than Moyer. And after all, this deal is about winning this year, not the long-term health of the franchise.

"This is a risk-averse and poor counterproposal because it supposedly didn't contain a single item that Riccardi really wanted. Only secondary points."

It had Happ who was in the first proposal from the Jays. It switched Brown to Taylor and Drabek to Carrasco. Even if the Jays consider Taylor/Carrasco lesser, it's not like this is an insulting counter offer as they added Donald to the package.

Happ/Taylor/Carrasco/Donald would be at least a counterproposal worth discussing and frankly I would hope the Phils would be willing to substitute Brown instead if they need to make this deal happen.

I tend to agree with Conlin about Taylor. Not only has Taylor showed the goods so far at AA and beyond but it is very conceivable that Taylor could be on this team and helping this current core win in the next year or two. You can't say the same about Brown.

Carrasco laying an egg doomed any chances of substituting him for Drabek. If the Phils did Drabek, Happ, Taylor, Donald/Marson, the Blue Jays would have to do that.

MG: I agree with you, but I think the Jays really want Drabek here. I think if they were to offer Happ/Taylor/Drabek/Donald that might get it done.

MG- "Another RHP bullpen arm"


Not so sure, it has to be a righty. It needs to be a guy capable of closing out a game though. I think Myers may be that extra righty you want, anyway.

Myers and Park would give the Phils 2 guys with really good stuff, capable of pitching multiple innings. Condrey is a solid middle guy, who can get a groundball and usually has good command. Madson is your 8th inning guy. Lidge? Who knows what his role would be, if another capable closer is acquired. Maybe the DL for good?


MG
You keep leaving out Happ who we know Toronto wants. Yes Happ Carrasco Brown, and Donald is a pretty good bargaining point, You have to give Amaro some credit if this is his starting point.

"they added Donald to the package."

I don't get why Donald is considered an a noteworthy prospect anymore. Yeah he has some value to a team as a guy who potentially could be a super utility type player but Donald is going to be 25 this year and has really struggled this year in the minors.

Given his defensive deficiencies (he hasn't played well this year defensively according to various reports at Lehigh at SS or the very limited time at 3B), his spot as a starter at the MLB is really only at 2B.

You guys are being penny wise and pound foolish. Halladay is an amazing talent who pitches in the toughest division in baseball. He will mow down the Braves, Marlins and Mets' lineups. I think Brown, Drabek and Happ is a fair deal. Brown is a great talent but he is still in A ball and has a lot to prove before we anoint him the next coming. Drabek has already had one TJ and despite his great numbers is still having trouble against lefties in AA. Happ is a nice pitcher whose secondary stats would show you has been pitching over his head.

Don't get me wrong, I think they are great prospects the Phils would be giving up, but Halladay is a once in a lifetime talent. This isn't Blanton, Washburn or Lohse. I say Rube calls JP back and tells him he wants Scutaro included and sends those three guys packing and we start planning the parade route.

One more thing, Hanley Ramirez is the best SS in the NL, do you think anyone in Boston is lamenting his departure? No, because they got a ring to show for it. Flags fly forever guys.

While I'm a little down on Carrasco, there still is potntial there and he's young. If you can make a deal and still keep him and Knapp, it'll leave you with some well thought of young talent.

denny - What are you (and everybody on here seemingly) assuming that Myers is going to come back healthy and provide a real lift to the pen in early Sept?

Anything you get out of him will be an added bonus and hopefully the Phils will have a nice, fat lead by mid-Sept so they can figure out where Myers fits potentially in their postseason plans over the final 3 weeks of the season.

It doesn't have to be a RHP arm but the Phils already have Romero & Eyre as lefties out of the pen. I would rather they pick up a RHP in case Lidge goes down and using him instead of a guy like Durbin or Park in the postseason if needed.

Scutaro, as a type 'A' player gives the Jays 2 draft picks. Hard to imagine Toronto moving him.

Romero-the guy on the DL with arm soreness?

AMARO TO TORONTO: Drop Dead!
Phila-This just in, in a surprising move Amaro makes final offer of Carrasco, Ozuna, anybody named Collier the Jays want and a cruise with Kevin Jordan. Amaro then sings " Chocolate Salty Balls" to Ricciardi on phone. Toronto has no comment.

RodeoJones- great post and I agree 100%. I think Rube should come back agreeing to the deal if Toronto throws in another small piece such of Scutaro.

Do you think Boston sits back and think "Oh man, if we only had Hanley?" No. They look up at their banners, worship Josh Beckett and love life.

The reason why Happ is possibly holding up this deal is that the whole point of a Halladay deal is to win *right now* and Happ is contributing *right now*. Obviously Halladay is a better piece than Happ, but the whole point of doing a blockbuster deal to win *right now* is to add a piece, not swap a piece.

For the record I agree Drabek has a higher ceiling and more long term value. But, if the goal is to win *right now* with this deal, Happ is more important to the 2009 Phillies than Drabek.


You may disagree on precisely how important it is to keep Happ, but its not "stupid" or "baffling" or a "no-brainer" or "confusing." It may end up happening, but Amaro is right to not agree to including Happ right away. Amaro is rightfully concerned that a rotation in 2009 minus Happ plus Halladay is still vulnerable given the rest of the issues.

"One more thing, Hanley Ramirez is the best SS in the NL, do you think anyone in Boston is lamenting his departure?"

To start, I think if time travel was available, very few Sox fans would go back in time and actually make that trade. Flags fly forever, but, they've won 1 with Beckett, it wasn't in the year he was obtained and if you could do it over again you don't make the deal and find pitching elsewhere.

Also, Beckett was like 25 in that deal, and is still there right now. Which is a bit different than Halladay at 32 on a 1 1/2 year stint.

BB - How is a bigger concern (Lidge or Romero)?

I didn't realize Scutaro was an A type. Strike that thought from me.

Happ, Drabek, and Brown is really a fair deal. Selling high on both Happ and Drabek. Before the season anyone would have done this deal. If Brown is the breaking the point I'm sure you could counter with Taylor and another lesser player.

MickO
You got it wrong - Happ is not the pitcher holding up this trade - its Drabek

Happ is not holding up the deal, it's Drabek and possibly Brown. Basically a deal will not happen without Drabek, you can count on that.

Tray, thank you. Let me say, I think you're right that, since Drabek is not going to help you this year (and probably not next year) that it's reasonable to prefer Halladay, Hamels, Blanton, Happ over Halladay, Hamels, Blanton, Moyer. That said, I think the FO believes that Happ's potential production in the playoffs could be matched by the hot hand among Pedro, Moyer, or even Lopez. I think that belief is probably justified, though the better Happ pitches, the more it may look like wishful thinking to consider him internally replaceable. If the FO is right that Happ will come back down to earth, OR that a rejuvenated Pedro could replace him satisfactorily come October, then the real decision would be between a playoff rotation of (perhaps) Halladay, Hamels, Blanton, Pedro or one of Hamels, Blanton, Happ, and Pedro, in which case I think the Doc's value at the top far surpasses Happ's value at the bottom.

TMac's voice comes on and I immediately feel some indigestion.

Iceman: The difference is that Papelbon had an ERA of 1.85 in '07, w/ half as many blown saves all season as Lidge has had so far in '09. Also, no one on the Boston bench was named Bruntlett, Bako or Mayberry. Obtaining Halladay won't fix what's ailing the Phillies.

And what self-respecting adult calls Grand Slams "Grand Salamis"? I hate you TMac. I hate you. I hate you. I hate you.

who posts in a more repetitive fashion?

MG? or mvptommy?

Hibachi - 'find pitching elsewhere'? I wasn't aware that it was that easy to find. That's the point of all this, guys of Halladay's caliber don't come available often.

This stalemate will never come to a conclusion with these two GMs.rube has always been the second banana and now he is looking to prove himself and if he doesn't he doesn't want to look like...well, a rube. JP is still pretty young and inexperienced at this game too, small market team and no giant deals. Neither wants to budge and neither knows how to handle a once in a generation deal. Somebody, like an owner or a retired mentor stepping in will be the only way this gets done. We have two dudes who don't know how fast their car goes playing chicken.

Walk Lugo. Pitch to Pujols.

G-Town: Or peg Lugo and pitch to Pujols. Julio probably wishes he could face the Phils every day. Albert does not share his enthusiasm, however.

danger lad: It's a toss up. Tie-breaker though is that MG usually has salient points to make and not insane ramblings.

"they've won 1 with Beckett, it wasn't in the year he was obtained."

I have mixed feelings about a Halladay trade, but I don't get the logic -- repeated often here -- that the WS has to come that very same year for the trade to have been worth it. One year after the Beckett trade, Beckett won 20 games and was the hero of their WS run, winning MVP of the ALCS. That's still a World Series that would never have happened if they hadn't made the trade.

@njrossdawg

"JP is still pretty young and inexperienced at this game too"

a) J. P. Ricciardi is 50.
b) J. P. Ricciardi has been a GM for 8 seasons.
c) J. P. Ricciardi began his front office career 23 years ago.
d) You make generalized statements without actually knowing what you're talking about.

"Somebody, like an owner or a retired mentor stepping in will be the only way this gets done."

a) You've seen "The Might Ducks" too many times. The grizzled Canadian skate maker to whom Emilio Estevez turned for advice doesn't know baseball. And is imaginary.

"njrossdawg"

a) Jersey. Ughhhh.
b) "dawg". Projectile vomit.

danger lad - Yeah I tend to beat a belabor a point at times and I am certainly have my share of being "wrong" on an issue too. I will though at least try to find some common ground most times and with mvp you usually can't in a discussion.

What the crap??

"Hibachi - 'find pitching elsewhere'? I wasn't aware that it was that easy to find. That's the point of all this, guys of Halladay's caliber don't come available often. "

Right, but my point was, that if you could look back and now decide who won the Beckett/Hanley trade very few people will tell you the Sox side.

Beckett is great, but Hanley is special.

I realize you cant re-do trades, but I think you tried to make the point of "get pitching" but used an example of why you don't just throw them whatever prospects the other team wants.

doubleh: Good point. You'd think someone would at least attempt to brush Julio back a bit ... although bad things have happened when Blanton tries to pitch inside this season.


Vs. The Phils In '09:

Pujols - .222 (4-18) 3 R 1 HR 2 RBI

Lugo - .684 (13-19) 7 R 1 HR 5 RBI


Good job by the Big Man, & by Utley for moving up.

Good job getting the run home by Ryno. Nice aggressive advance by Chase, too.

"One year after the Beckett trade, Beckett won 20 games and was the hero of their WS run, winning MVP of the ALCS. That's still a World Series that would never have happened if they hadn't made the trade."

And right now, Hanley might be the best player in baseball...and the Sox have been looking for a SS ever since trading him.

To say that it's a WS they wouldn't have had otherwise makes zero sense.

I have to say, Pujols is a great player. However, all the breathless knob-slobbering by the national media gets to be a bit much for me.

well, we wouldn't have won last year without blanton. you can't just have your second best pitcher go down with an injury and expect to do just as well without him. we need somebody, not necessarily halladay, but we definitely need somebody.

Most people would say the Sox won that deal. They got Beckett, Lowell and a WS.
Fla hasn't made the playoffs since.

Rube is starting to piss me off...just make the move.

BS interference call on Utley...complete BS.

Nevermind on the interference call. Damn ump.

Blanton won us a WS...no question.

doubleh: From your lips to Joe Buck's ears ...

Great facial hair on Jason Larue.

dlhunter: He's got the Sal Fasano going.

G-Town: TBS broadcast is blacked out for me. Thankfully.

"Most people would say the Sox won that deal. They got Beckett, Lowell and a WS.
Fla hasn't made the playoffs since."

Really? You would judge who won the trade based on this? Unbelievable. There are more players on those teams than just the ones involved in the deal.

Hanley turned into a better player than the Sox thought he would.

I'm not saying you FAULT them for making the deal or that it was a bad deal for them. Because Hanley's upside was a huge unknown. All I'm saying is that if they kept Hanley and didn't acquire Beckett/Lowell they would have been much better off.

Is it just me or is umpiring worse this year than I've ever seen?

Lugo was out at second and it lead directly to a run.

We nearly lost a run because of the lame umpire interference on Vic's steal.

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EST. 2005

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