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Wednesday, July 29, 2009


Jason, you are wrong.

I do not like this deal.

I mean, who are we going to kick around what with no more Gnome?

Oh. Replace Mayberry. Bleh.

Repost from last thread:

Gargano reports the Phils told the Jays that they'd give them the same deal, plus Happ. Blue Jays said no.

Bake: Gnome will still be here. He is the only 1st base, 2nd base, SS replacement.

Mayberry will go back down.

i think we can thank gillick for this deal. his "stand pat" mantra clearly influenced amaro, so he didn't feel bad about balking at the blue jay's price for halladay and instead got lee at a great price.

bravo, ruben. bravo.

Absolutely thrilled to get Lee especially at this price, but it's the inclusion of Francisco that intrigues me...

Greg Dobbs minor league line: (6 seasons) .307/.360/.456/.817
Ben Francisco minor league line: (7 seasons) .291/.357/.459/.815

If Ben can become a righty Greg Dobbs, he would be a real positive asset for our bench.

bake -
There's always someone to kick around.

Damn. JP Ricciardi sucks.

What does Toronto do now?

Riccardi hates the deal, too. Assuming Boston's still interested, Doc's trade value has just gone down.

Seems like a payroll dump by Cleveland, along with one high ceiling prospect.

Rube did good.

If they make a RoLo for decent reliever deal, we ought to sweeten the pot with a plaster garden ornament of two and pull up some minor leaguer who can keep from making out more than 7 out of 8 times.

Ok, Blers with this trade included. So far the following have been Rube's moves as GM.

- Signed Ibanez
- Signed Chan Ho
- Signed Cairo
- Resigned Moyer
- Traded for Cliff Lee and Francisco

What is the overall grade for him thus far?

I agree, NEPP

****1:43pm: Ricciardi tells Sherman he expects to keep Halladay through 2010 and try to win next year.****

Yeah, good luck with that plan.

I am so thrilled in every respect as to not want to mess it up by saying much.

And Jaramillo for Paulino

Love it! And..and the Phils have the parts to double down for Halladay. Would that be nuts? I got 7-1 odds this morning on a WFC repeat.

B+ for Amaro. Letting Chan Ho ever start was kind of silly but, i think Chan Ho is content coming out of the pen. Being on a winning team makes not being in your ideal role alot easier.

Cairo, who cares, every team signs guys like that, and sometimes they know when to cut them(cairo) and when not to(bruntlett).

Resgigning moyer is so-so. Don't know why it had to cost so darn much is really my only problem with it.

And the lee trade is almost the best trade this team has made this decade.

The second best thing about the Phils getting Lee as that the Dodgers don't. The third best think is the hand-wringing likely going on in Miami and Atlanta.

Don't forget the Hamels, Howard, Werth contracts..among others.

Hey what about me? Am I just the token broken down has-been for the team to lug around for the sole purpose of keeping me off another teams roster?

And the fourth best thing is probably the neck ringing going on in queens.

Congrats gents. Mighty fine acquisition. I don't mind it really, since I'm writing off this year (unless my Metropolitans see an August miracle and a clean bill of health for our entire DL).

Getting a reigning AL Cy Young without giving up any of your top 3 prospects? Bravo.

Lee was scheduled to start on Friday for Cleveland. Does he take that spot on the Phils or do they move him to Saturday and give him an extra day to scout the Giants a little more?

From Cleveland perspective: They got a guy with ace potential, another guy who may be just a tweak away from being a #3 starter. And two guys in Marson and Donald who could be average everyday players. Let's not forget that 50 games ago Donald was a middle infielder with a combined .880 OPS at A/AA the last two years. Not exactly chopped liver.

From the Phillies perspective: The only guy they gave up with superstar potential is an 18 year old pitcher. You become an elite team with superstar quality players. It's not very likely we traded the next Utley, Howard, or Hamels in this deal, and we got the current AL Cy Young winner. That's awesome.

Check out the postings on the Cleveland Plain Dealer site they are as bitter as we are happy
I almost feel sorry for the Indians fans- almost!

MFiP - Those Metropolitans saw a September miracle in 2007, n'est pas? Rather close up.

you forgot the golson jmjr deal also,

i predict jmjr is moved for a reliever at some point as well

Wow!! Like the inclusion of Francisco in the deal. This deal is SO much cheaper than the Halladay one, in all respects. Of course, Lee is not Halladay, but all in all, I think it's great for the Phils. I don't think it's terrible for the Tribe, either, if Knapp and Carrasco become solid starters down the line, which is entirely possible.

I do agree with those who say it will be Mayberry to the minors for regular play as opposed to DFA'ing Bruntlett. As far as making room for Lee, I suspect starters will be Lee, Hamels, Blanton, Happ, Moyer, with Pedro throwing from the BP. What happens to Lopez? Does he go to the pen until the injured relievers come back? Then what? I'm thinking he will be odd man out.

Am I just the token broken down has-been for the team to lug around for the sole purpose of keeping me off another teams roster?

Posted by: Pedro Martinez

One of the most important things in life is to recognize your place in the world.

Other secondary real positives of this move including addressing not only this season but this offseason too:

- Amaro doesn't have to make a trade this offseason for a frontline starter to replace Myers.

- That $7M differential between Lee and Halladay is huge because this team already has a large amount of payroll committed next year to existing players who automatic raises and other players who will see notable increases (e.g., Vic, Blanton). It allows the Phils to have a little more payroll flexibility to sign a steady bullpen arm or two.

- Francisco isn't a world beater but again he is a guy who could be that reasonable 4th OF the Phils have been looking at a low cost too. Probably save at least $500k next year vs. having to go out and acquire a veteran guy for $800k-$1M.

tommy, it's hard to grade him for Moyer and Ibanez.

Let's see how they do through the length of their contracts.

For instance, right now Sabean gets a failing grade for the Zito deal.

But, for instance, if Zito wins 20 games/yr from now until the end of his contract, wouldn't that raise the grade?

So, PRELIMINARILY, I'll give Rube a solid B.

With all the teams looking for pitchers right now, I wonder if we couldn't send RoLo somewhere for a utility guy without pigeon poop on his plaster cap.


Mildly humorous. Lacking in creativity.


Francisco is a UCLA alum as well. I'm sure he, Chase, and Freddie Mitchell reminisce about their days outside Pauley Pavilion all the time.

BenFran's career OBP against Yanks, Sox, and Rays? .442, .421, .516. Meaningful? Probably not. But nice to look at nonetheless.

And Tony D, don't forget that Bako is here instead of Coste.

Mike Missaneli doesn't like the deal, thinks we should have got the Big Fish. So much for universal praise

"mildly humorous;"
"creativity lacking,"
words of a loser

Serious question: If this is a done deal, why is Cliff Lee warming up with his Indians teammates in Indians gear on the field in Anaheim right now?

the one thing i have to say thats a downer is that Harry won't be on to announce the trade at the top of the broadcast, after having to announce losing star players for soo many years, it would have been great hearing his enthusiasm for acquiring one...

(MFiP: if you use shorter words, I fit more of them in my next haiku.)

Howard Eskin not a fan either. Shocking.


You sound awfully miserable. All I did was congratulate your team on your acquistion. Relax.

loctastic: He's the same guy what was pissed when Phils fans at CBP were (*gasp!*) rooting for their team to NOT get no-hit at home earlier this season. Mikey can STFU.

Missanelli has been consistent about advocating for Halladay.

Cass: Yeah, he should be a physicians offer turning his head and coughing.

"at a physicians office", even

limoguy: I think everyone wanted Halladay. Not everyone wanted to sell the farm to get him.

Holy HELL! I LOVE this trade! Definitely much better than landing Halladay considering what we gave up. We'd have to give up all 5, and get only Halladay in return. We gave up a #3 starter, 2 good hitting prospects that can contribute immediately (which is what the Indians need at C and SS considering they're trying to deal Victor Martinez), and a live arm in a low minor league. We make out great, getting another ace pitcher, and we didn't lose our best prospects or J.A. Happ in the bargain!

Instead, we get another Cy Young pitcher in Cliff Lee, and righty bat Ben Francisco. Our rotation is now:


Scary, huh?

The bench is now IF Eric Bruntlett, IF/OF Greg Dobbs, OF Matt Stairs, C Paul Bako, OF Ben Francisco. Power off the bench from both sides of the plate, speed in Bruntlett and Francisco, 3 good pinch hitters, it's a pretty good group.

Francisco's Statline
Vs. LH (67 AB)

Vs. LH (193 AB)

Just what the doctor ordered for the bench! A good righty bat to face left handed pitching, and he's decent against RH too (OPS .755 career). He's also got some speed, having stolen 13 bags this year and being caught 3 times. Helluva guy to add to the bench. We just replaced Bruntlett as our 4th OF, although Bruntlett will probably stay on to backup J-Rol and Utley. Mayberry will probably be sent down.

Love it, love it, LOVE IT! A much better deal than if we landed Halladay. Ricciardi must be suicidal.

They are talk show hosts. Their jobs are to stir up stuff. Hence Eskins Pro-Eagles, Anti-Phillies shirade.

Everyone says Mike Missanelli is an improvement over Eskin.

I don't see it. Both are sanctimonious hacks. Mikey Miss really turned me off when he went off about the Chase Utley parade vulgarity for over a week.

ESPN is nearly chastising the Phils for not being willing to part with their entire pharm system for Roy Halladay. I find the national media's interest in this quite self-serving and short-sighted.

Gargano is shooting down every one of Eskin's points.

Eskin's an f'ing tool.

has there been any talk whatsoever from the phils brass about pedro in the pen?

Next move: Phillies add Adam Rubin to player development!!

Eskin generally never has a positive thing to say about the Phils. He promoted the same crap every playoff series last year when he thought the Phils overmatched including against the juggeranut Brewers without an exhausted Sabathia, no Sheets, and a team that was happy to largely be there.

He generally does that now though to rile up listeners and get them to call.

MFiP - I'm not miserable; you took away points for creativity, so I made your post into a haiku. Just lookin' for a few extra "creativity" points.

I do remember, OTOH, the garbage we received from many trolls (which would not, I'm gathering, include you) when the Mets sacrificed all their tradeable parts for (and Omar got reamed, salary wise, by) Johann; the gloating was far more substantial than our response. I would have used something other than "loser," too, but you're better-than-an-average Met-troll vocabulary used up most of my 17 syllables.

So what does everyone think is the next move here? I just can't buy Ruben has closed up shop

Halladay better chance to win a WS this year - maybe. You can make that argument.

Still, you are really hard pressed to make the argument that the Phils won't be in a potentially better position to contend next season though too (and in the longer run) because of the Lee trade.

"Do these phillies prospects come with crutches or do we have to provide them..."

"Lets change the name to the Cleveland Pirates..."
Just two of the outraged postings on the Cleveland site.

drake: Yes, Pedro could end up in the pen, but he'll get a chance to start first. Pedro actually has incentives in his contract for relief appearances.

Outstanding deal, and it leaves Happ, Drabek and Brown in place for a trade with Toronto to add Halliday to our rotation.

Eskin doesn't like the deal.
A+++++ Ruben- Well Done.

"I would have used something other than "loser," too, but you're better-than-an-average Met-troll vocabulary used up most of my 17 syllables."

The most backhanded compliment I have ever received.

Thank you, good sir.

"Eskin's an f'ing tool.

Posted by: Bridoc10 "

I suggest we all start calling those plastic receptacles into which we place our wrenches and screwdrivers "Eskin Boxes."

Quote from a poster on the Cleveland Web-Site:

"This is the worst trade I have ever seen. Carrasco has a 6-9 record and 5.18 ERA at AAA. Knapp is still 2-3 years away...and what the hell do we need another catcher for? We have Santana waiting in the wings!

Awful. Just awful."

Makes you want to smile doesn't it.

Eskin should run with scissors down a flight of stairs in an earthquake.

While we're on the Mets:

I am hoping the Wilpons feel that they have to "stand by their man" Minaya because of the extension he got last offseason this year and that Minaya feels that he has to go out and sign a couple of questionable FA players to big deals this offseason in order to contend including somebody like Bedard.

Cleveland papers speculate the Indians may turn around and deal marson again...

banana - yes, who wouldn't have wanted Halladay? I think Missanelli's mantra was that he's of such a high calibre and you don't get many chances at acquiring the best. And of course that the Phils would have had been a lock to repeat if they had gotten him.

silly argument
a back-handed compliment
you're very welcome

Now the question is does Amaro feel he has to get a bullpen arm because of the injury status of a couple of guys and the shaky results from Madson and Lidge?

I say he should but it likely would cost a decent prospect (e.g., Taylor) and at least 1-2 other prospects for a guy like Sherill or Bell and Amaro won't.

Next order of business:

What happens with Pedro?

MG - In re: Halladay's chances of getting to the WS.

Unless he gets traded, he stands almost no chance. The Jays are the fourth best team in their division; how many of those other three do you realistically see them passing?

How about if the Phillies ship Lee and a throw-in for Halladay? That's perhaps the only way this day gets better.

Ibañez: A
Park: B (I'm still pissed about the starting thing)
Cairo: F
Moyer: C (Based on the addition of a 2nd year)
Taschner: F
Lee: A (Based on giving up pretty much nothing)
Lopez: B
Bako: D (Pointless)
Pedro: I

All deals are not equal, however, so overall I'm giving Rube a 'B'. Whether he vaults to a Gillick-like 'A' or slips to an Ed Wade-ish 'C' or 'D' will depend largely on how Lee, Francisco & Pedro perform on the field.

My quick thought on the deal:

Ruben did a great job of recognizing that he was dealing with a total flake. Riccardi has been doing more dealing/negotiating through the media than with GMs. In contrast, we already had solid contacts w/Cleveland from last year's aborted Sabathia talks. So Ruben quickly did the about-face and dealt with a known entity, and did it before other teams could collect themselves. That's straight out of the Pat Gillick opposed to the Ed Wade school, which would have ended with a 6 pm Friday press conference beginning with "We tried, but ultimately, we couldn't get it done." So kudos to Ruben---you've earned your stripes big time, kid.

For the Eskins and others who badmouth this deal---how would they have felt if Ruben had taken this down to the last minute, not dealt for Halladay, and seen someone else walk away with Lee? Also, considering that we would have given up a similar package of players last year for Sabathia, but might have only had him for half a season (vs. Lee for 1.5 years at reasonable cost), this was a no-brainer.

Don't get me wrong---Halladay would have looked great in Phillie pinstripes. But to nab a Cy Young award winner in his prime for nothing more than some DECENT (not "stud") prospects? You can't possibly fault Ruben for making that deal.

Unless the Dodgers nab Halladay :)

I know some are dreaming of a rotation of Hamels/Lee/Blanton/Happ in the playoffs but my guess is this trade opens up Happ as trade bait for a bullpen arm. Mayberry maybe also.

This trade is a huge win for Amaro. He got a great starting pitcher- a legitimate #2 or #1A guy AND kept the three prospects that are the highest rated by many scouts.

He basically worked this to a point where he held all the cards. He got a great offer on the table from the INdians and then gave the Blue Jays one more chance adding Happ to the mix. That for Halladay + something would've been a great deal as well. So he either got Halladay for a great package or Lee for a great package.

For better or worse, Amaro put his stamp on the nucleus now. We can complain about the Park deal, the 25th man on the bench, etc. but this deal will loo large on this and future seasons and it is an absolute win for Ruben. He has to get an A/A- on this season now in his first year as GM. If they don't win it this year or next- it won't be for lack of trying on his part.

Ruben can't speak right now-- he's in confession.

I sure am glad I was wrong about the inevitability of a Halladay deal. This was a truly impressive turn by Junior. Hopefully, there will be moves for a Gnome-killer and a bullpen arm, but this is a huge boost for the postseason, no matter what else happens.

Howard Eskin not a fan either. Shocking.

eskin also said empty the entire farm for halliday. he has no cred...

"Cleveland Pirates" is *hilarious*. What a great year (dating back to this time last year) it's been to be a Phillies fan. I'm still not accustomed to, you know, good things happening, but whatever. I've learned to deal with it by looking at an outstanding team and, dare I say, sound management.

Lee is a #2 only if Halladay is on the same team...

Now the main focus has to be to de-mitch- williams-ize Lidge.

I find myself terrified of going into the ninth w/ a three run lead or less.

If you were JP, would you trade Halladay and Scutaro/other IF for Lee, Happ, and a throw-in? If I were looking to cut costs, etc., etc., I would. In this way, Toronto wins by cutting costs and getting value back in Cy Young Lee AND Happ, an extension on getting value back for a stud pitcher, and gets out of the mess that is now TOR-Hallday relationship.
Philly wins by getting RHB infielder to replace Bruntlett, their stud #1 RHP, AND backup RHB bat in Francisco. (and keep Drabek, Brown and Taylor, who are all looking untouchable)
Cleveland wins...well not really.

How tense is anyone over the physicals for the outgoing wounded? Pending.. Pending... Pending...

ed - good one and he did just rob Cleveland blind. He will be absolved depending on which team the priest follows.

Finally, sweet revenge for Phila getting passed over for the Rock and Roll HOF....

has anyone heard reaction from phillies players?

I have to think JP Ricciardi is living off of borrowed time.

The Bosox now match up as the most likely trading partner, so if he pulls the trigger there, he gets lynched in the press and on the team blogs for moving Roy within the division.

Will he get an offer as good as a Buchholz centered one in the offseason?

Not if Halladay's value goes down.

The question I have is this:

If he doesn't more Halladay by Friday, will he get an offseason package as good as

Happ, Carrasco, Knapp, Donald and Marson?

IMO, it'll be tough to do.

an alternative to Lee+Happ+throw-in for Halladay+Scutaro is Lee+Happ for Hallday+Reliever.

BTW everyone we have a game tonight!

The presence of 4 lefties in the rotation suggests that Pedro is going to be one of the 5, no? I just don't see anyone being bumped other than Moyer, and he can't go to the pen.

Side note, huge upgrade is Fransisco coming in for late inning defense and possible critical ABs instead of Gnome/Mayberry

So, happiest person on the Phillies roster, probably Happ? I'd hate to leave this team if I was a player, and he dodged that bullet only due to the sillyness of JP.

And Eskin is an idiot, worst talk radio personality in this town, and is a tool of the highest caliber.

bsg: Durbin, who played with Lee in Cleveland, had this to say about him (vis Lauber's blog):

“He works as hard as anybody,” Durbin said. “The same things you hear about Halladay’s work ethic, that’s true for him. He was in that big trade. He and Sizemore and Phillips were going to be given thir opportunities. When he was given it, he jumped on it. Spring training, seeing him outwork people, run harder, run faster, train harder. He’s a horse. To get a guy like that, and to keep Happ and Drabek, it’s impressive. Ruben [Amaro Jr.] did a good job.”

gotta love the fact that Cliff Lee's middle name is "Phifer." For real.

Well, this is awesome. I'll smoke a blunt to that.

I still think it would be great if they did a 6 man rotation. Yeah it's goofy and they'll never do it, but man, Moyer always looks better with more rest.

possible trade-

brunlett, eskin trade to any double A ball team for some a case of rosin bags

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