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Wednesday, July 22, 2009


Great photo! What is it? Blood stains left from a negative Phillies fan suicide?

Bad game. Durbin needs new scenery. He'll be part of the Halladay deal. Toronto will add some guy they want to unload, too.

From Previous Thread:

rjm: Yea, the problem with the Phillies NOW is they have too many 3-5 guys in the rotation now. That is the reason a trade for a #2 regardless if it is Halladay, Lee or Haren seems bound to happen any day. Because they have Happ, Lopez, Martinez to fill 2 spots. Moyer is going nowhere. Then you have Blanton and Hamels obviously.

Soo, if you trade Happ + Prospects( any combo) for one of those pitchers. AND Lopez continues to impress. Then all of a sudden you have a rotation of Hamels, #2, Blanton, Moyer, Lopez with Martinez in the pen.

"One reader writes: “I really hope those Chad Qualls rumors are true because 2009 Brad Lidge is, quite simply, a basket case. I don't know if he's injured or it's in his head, but I do know that, if this were a contest for single worst closer of 2009, he would have lapped the field three times by now.”"

JW, with all due respect. Qualls STINKS. He has 4 blown saves himself. Along with the 3.63 ERA, NO THANKS.

I think the predictions of the early retirement of Jamie Moyer are premature. He is the winningest starter on the staff. He has pitched some good games recently. He's not done.

Let's be honest, Lidge would've tweaked his groin on the 2nd lap.

Adam Eaton : Last pitched July 27th, with a 5.80 ERA.

Jamie Moyer : At July 22nd, has a 5.65 ERA. He has rebounded from his early season catastrophe, but not completely - only 2 out of his last 5 starts have been QS, which is hardly a high bar to clear. Getting rid of ineffective starters last year was one of the main reasons we made the playoffs... the Phillies shouldn't get complacent now.

It looks like a Jackson Pollock painting.

ERA doesn't tell you everything about a RP, because one or two horrible games totally inflates it.

And furthermore, a 3.63 ERA would look really good on Lidge right now. His current one is twice that, no?

I don't know if Qualls is the answer, but another somewhat reliable arm would be better than Durbin right now. He's a larger issue as far as I'm concerned.

2 questions:

1. Would you trade Lidge back to Houston for Michael Bourn right now?

2. What are the odds that Brett Myers is the closer in October?

It's hard for me to muster any real anger about this game. It was over the moment Jamie Moyer toed the rubber. I present his recent game log:

June 17, 6 IP, 6 R
June 23, 6 IP, 1 R
June 28, 5 IP, 4 R
July 4, 6.1 IP, 1 R
July 9, 5 IP, 6 R
July 16, 7 IP, 1 R
July 22, 5 IP, 5 R

He's so inconsistent that he's consistently inconsistent. It's good start/bad start/good start/bad start. He was due for a bad start. He's now had 11 starts in which he's given up at least 4 runs without getting out of the 6th inning. That's bad starts in 11 out of 19 starts this year.

Clearly he's not as bad as he was out of the gate (8.15 ERA in his first 7 starts), but he hasn't been good since, either.

The reason the Phils signed Pedro AND want to deal for someone like Halladay is that they know that Jamie Moyer's days are numbered.

MVP: So you'd rather have a closer with an ERA of 7?

There are 10M or so reasons why Moyer's days are a Phils' starter aren't numbered. That is what they are likely going to owe him next season if he gives them 180 IP and 30 GS which he will well onto his way.

clout, in the last thread, asks why everyone is so quick to assume that Lidge is injured when he also has a history of playing his way out of the closer's role due to poor performance. It's a point I've also been making for much of the year but, at the same time, this must also be said: even at his worst, Lidge's peripherals were never anywhere near this bad in Houston. For that reason, I do tend to think he's injured.

I would also note that, when he went on the DL this year, he made comments to the effect that his injury had been bothering him all off-season. Yet, his stay on the DL was for the minimum time possible, and 10 days later, he was pitching again in rehab stints. But, if Lidge was telling the truth about being injured all off-season, then it's literally unfathomable that 10 days on the shelf would have cleared up an injury that didn't get cleared up with 3 months off.

This is from the end of last thread, but only just now showing up:

MVP: This argument has been hashed out before & we are basically arguing in circles. In essence, you and I simply disagree on whether saves are the defining stat for evaluating a closer's performance. Personally, I view saves as pretty arbitrary. A statistician decided that if you close out a game under certain arbitrarily-defined circumstances, you get a save -- regardless of how you pitched.

Put it this way. It's pretty hard to think of any other pitching stat where a guy can be among the league leaders, even though he has a 7+ ERA, a WHIP of nearly 2, a BAA around .300, and 6 walks and 2+ homeruns allowed per 9 innings. It's like the old saying, "If you ask a question, and you know the answer is wrong, maybe it's time to ask a different question." Those who point to Brad Lidge's saves as evidence of his effectiveness are defying common sense. They need to think of a new question as to what criteria define a successful closer.

Even using saves as your criteria, Qualls has been a better closer than Lidge. And, by all other criteria, he has been so superior that I feel dumber for even debating the point.

Phils really need 3 things:

- Another starter
- Another RHP reliever
- Right-handed bat off the bench

It would be great if they could get a frontline starter or a reliever who could close if Lidge completely falters/injured but that might not happen.

At the very least though, it is not too much to expect Amaro to fill 2 of those 3 needs over the next 3-4 weeks though. That should really be the criterion on judging what he accomplishes at the trading deadline/waiver deals in August.

MVPTommy: Qualls has a 3.63 ERA, a 33/5 K/BB ratio, and has allowed 3 HRs. Lidge has a 6.82 ERA, a 37/21 K/BB ratio, and has allowed 8 HRs.

Yet you don't think Qualls would be an upgrade? Seriously dude, do you even watch baseball? Do you follow the game? I don't think you do.

Kyle Kendrick, 2008: ERA+: 80, WHIP: 1.612.
Adam Eaton, 2008: ERA+: 75, WHIP: 1.636.
Jamie Moyer, 2009: ERA+: 77, WHIP 1.407.

Basically, Jamie is Kendrick or Eaton, minus a walk or two per.

Like those guys last year, unless something changes, he should not be in the rotation, nor be on the playoff roster.

BAP - I don't understand why Clout continues with his assertion that Lidge isn't really hurt. The guy has been on the DL (missed time twice) with inflammation in his right knee this season and has had at least 1 (probably 2 cortisone shots) to deal with it.

Additionally, everybody from Amaro, Cholly, Dubee, to Lidge himself has said that his right knee was injured at some point this season to a varying degree.

The only question is can Lidge can it through the rest of the season without being a complete disaster as he largely has been and what type of offseason medical regimen is Lidge is going to have this offseason on his right knee (shocked if he doesn't have a 3rd major surgery on his right knee in a little over 2 years).

I love Jaime Moyer, but it might be time to put him out to pasture. He doesn't have the skills to pitch for this championship squad anymore. When Pedro gets here, lets move Moyer to the pen and keep Lopez in the starting rotation.

MG: Your financial argument about Moyer is sort of a circular one. The only way Moyer reaches 180 IP, triggering his $10M bonus, is if the Phillies let him reach those numbers. If they yank him from the rotation, there would be no 180 IP and no $10M bonus. So, far from providing a reason to keep him in the rotation, that $10M incentive-based salary is actually a strong motive for the Phillies to yank him.

Moyer isn't going anywhere and really isn't the issue right now unless they really do slump for whatever reason.

The reality is that you do want to see him start a playoff game and that (along with Happ's rookie status) is why Amaro is likely going to get another starter instead of bullpen help.

Phils have 3 holes and Amaro isn't going to be able to fill all of them. It isn't unreasonable though to expect he can fill 2 of them with upgrades over Moyer, Lidge, and Bruntlett/Mayberry.

With all of this talk about trading for this pitcher or that pitcher and signing Pedro, the REAL issue with this team from DAY 1 this year, has been the closer.

The #1 problem with this team now and what might be a fatal problem in October, is #54 and the 9th inning.

Its very apparent that whatever magic he had last year, is gone and not coming back in 2009. He has ZERO control. Has no idea where his fastball is going and worse yet, no confidence (which is what got him run out of Houston in the first place).

Before we gut our farm and our future, for Halliday or Lee, maybe we ought to figure out something for the 9th inning going forward. Because as good as those 2 in particular may be or as solid as Hamels, Happ and Blanton look to be most times out, if you can't close a game out in the 9th, it doesn't mean much. Unless you just want to pitch Halliday or Hamels or Blanton until their arms fall off and have them go 9 every time out, the 9th inning is going to be the reason this team succeeds again or falls short.

If Myers comes back with anything close to his old stuff in August, I would not hesitate to put him back in the role he was best in here and roll the dice with him. It might be too much for him physically, but with his mindset, contract-drive and his stuff, he'd be a tiger in that role this year.

How can anyone, with any baseball knowledge at all, have any confidence in Lidge the rest of the year? His ERA approaching August is over 7. His control has been awful all year. Its almost a relief now, when he doesn't pitch in a game.

Maybe he can be resurrected in 2010. But (if as Chuckles and Rube and most of the fans here have said ad nauseum) if its about doing EVERYTHING you can to win and win big in 09', it might mean slotting Lidge somewhere into the middle of the bullpen and keeping him far away from the 8th or 9th innings.

As for the game today, we were due for a game like that. Utley is tired and needs a day off. Moyer with a hitters umpire is never going to end well. Durbin still can't throw the ball where he wants anymore and is a roll of the dice anytime he pitches.

There were a few positives though. Dobbs had a nice AB against Marshall and got 2 knocks. RFD Jr hung in there against a nasty righty and got a hit. Feliz just missed tieing the game in the 7th and had some good AB's today. Condrey and Eyre did really good jobs in tough situations.

"Adam Eaton : Last pitched July 27th, with a 5.80 ERA.

Jamie Moyer : At July 22nd, has a 5.65 ERA."

Yeah, but we're a very sentimental bunch. And really, there's nothing like watching Dan Uggla whiff on yet another Geezer 60 mph changeup.

BAP - After today, Moyer is at 111 2/3 IP and 19 GS

At 150 IP and 23 GS, his base next year is $7M

If he hits 180 IP and 30 GS, his base will be $10M next year so yeah the Phils actually have plenty of incentive to pull Moyer from the rotation but I can't imagine that would go over well with him, teammates, or probably even Cholly.

MG: You actually cited a reason why Jamie Moyer WON'T be in the rotation unless he improves.

The Phils have a financial interest to NOT allow him to continue to pitch so poorly.

He's on pace right now to earn $8.5M or $8.75M this season while also increasing his base salary next season to $8.25-$8.75M.

If Moyer only makes three more starts this season, then he WILL NOT reach any of his incentives this year and his base salary will not go up next year.

And guess what? Moyer is now on the same schedule as Pedro and Pedro's scheduled return would conincide with Moyer's pre-incentive exit.

I'm just sayin'...

If Moyer's part of a 4-man postseason rotation I'll puke.

2 questions:

1. Would you trade Lidge back to Houston for Michael Bourn right now?

2. What are the odds that Brett Myers is the closer in October?

MG: Small correction... his base can only go up to $8.75M at the most for next season. He would then have to hit his IP incentives next year to get to $10M.

Shouldn't our Pitching Coach Rich Dubee be able to fix what's wrong with Lidge? It's not like you need to teach Lidge to learn all the fundamentals of pitching; it is one thing, location on the fastball. Can't that be tweaked?

Lake Fred:

It depends.

Lidge can't locate his fastball for one of three reasons.

1) He's injured and compensating for it and he has to get healthy to fix it.
2) He's got a mechanical flaw that Dubee should be able to locate and fix.
3) He's got a mental block which many believe is why he struggled in Houston and only Lidge can fix that.

Everyone needs to calm down a bit about Moyer. It's a little bold to compare him to Adam Eaton. Eaton lost his spot in the rotation last year after two starts of 2.2 IP, 6 ER and 3.2 IP, 8 ER. While Jamie's start today wasn't great, it wasn't that bad either. Eaton gave us no chance to win last year, which is why we removed him. Kendrick was a similar case. His first two starts in September last year, he went a total of 5.1 IP with 13 ER. Jamie has bad starts occasionally, but 5 IP, 4 ER is good enough for a win with our offense.

It seems to me that his 5.65 ERA is scaring everyone. Since May 20th, his ERA is 4.42, which is perfectly fine for a back of the rotation starter for our team.

Anyone else think Park should be our setup guy now?

"I present his recent game log:

June 17, 6 IP, 6 R
June 23, 6 IP, 1 R
June 28, 5 IP, 4 R
July 4, 6.1 IP, 1 R
July 9, 5 IP, 6 R
July 16, 7 IP, 1 R
July 22, 5 IP, 5 R"

Obviously the answer is to use Geezer on 10 days rest. Makes sense that a 50 year old requires twice the rest of a 25 year old.

Some of our new (or new named) posters are jumping on the "Moyer is washed up" bandwagon, which has been pretty full for the past 3 months. The problem is, despite the wishes and hopes of these predictors, Moyer has actually been getting better as the season continues, not worse (unlike Eaton and KK, thus making that comparison lame-brained.)

Including today's disaster, Moyer's numbers for the past 3 months are:

May 1-4, 8.01
June 2-1, 4.80
July 3-1, 4.24

It seems to me that unless Moyer reverses that trend these posters are going to be what they almost always are: Wrong.

"It seems to me that his 5.65 ERA is scaring everyone. Since May 20th, his ERA is 4.42, which is perfectly fine for a back of the rotation starter for our team"

Cherry picking is all well and good, but the games from March to May 20 count too. Another fun set of numbers is all of his games except the Fish games. And all games except Fish and Nats.

Skeeter: I don't necessarily think you're suggesting this, but I don't think there's any way you can complain about the Lidge trade. The fact is that Lidge might be the biggest reason we won the WS last year. As frustrating as Brad's performance has been this year, I won't feel too upset about trading Bourn unless he puts up Willie Mays numbers, which I doubt. And besides that, Bourn wouldn't be a starting outfielder on our team, so it's not like we need him.

As for your other question, I wouldn't be at all surprised if Myers was the closer. I know the injury is still a concern, but if anyone has the passion to come back from something like that quickly, it's Myers.

Wouldn't Miguel Cairo, David Newham or Pablo Ozuna be an upgrade over Bruntlett at this point? All are sitting in Lehigh Valley.

That game log is the reason why moyer still gets to start while other guys got the boot. Eaton and the like didn't have very good outings to keep them in good graces. He is inconsistent. They were consistently bad. He is very good and very bad.
I guess today showed everyone how important it is to go get Halladay and not pretend that pedro, moyer, and lopez are enough.
Also a bench guy needs to come from somewhere. The minors? A trade? Waivers? People talk about Bruntlett's versatility keeping him in good graces, but he isn't that necessary. If they bring up another infielder they will be set. Mayberry/Dobbs take care of all outfield needs. And the way chase and jimmy play everyday they can get by with Feliz being the emergency SS/2nd (with Dobbs at third) or Cairo/Donald playing 2nd. I just don't get his purpose on this team. As for resting people, there is a ton of baseball to be played and guys won't get rested much until september when rosters are expanded and the race is run.

curt: then by your logic Hamels is washed up, no? Hamels ERA in April was 7.27 and in May it was 4.06.

Those games count too, right curt?

Maybe Durbin was feeling effects of pitching 3 innings the day before yesterday?

denny - Getting another starter as an upgrade over Moyer is pretty important but yeah Lidge has been a disaster this year. He deserves some real credit for trying to gut it out on a bad knee but at what point does he (or the team) realize that his performances are hurting the team more than helping.

uhhhhhhhhh.....ok. Why is that?

skeeter: Please ignore the Mets troll who's pretending to be a Cubs fan.

clout: I'm concerned less about his overall ERA than I am about the fact that every other start he gives us little to no chance to win.

June 17, 6 IP, 6 R
June 23, 6 IP, 1 R
June 28, 5 IP, 4 R
July 4, 6.1 IP, 1 R
July 9, 5 IP, 6 R
July 16, 7 IP, 1 R
July 22, 5 IP, 5 R

I'm bored, so I'm gonna point out all the spelling and grammatical errors in bears fan's magical post. This should be fun.

1. Using "your" instead of "you're"
2. Mispelled "series"
3. No question mark after "series"
4. Using "your" instead of "you're"
5. No period after "wrong"
6. Using "to" instead of "till"
7. Mispelled "Halladay"
8. Missing the words "can't" and "him"
9. Mispelled "because"
10. No apostrophe in "can't"
11. Missing the word "is"
12. Mispelled "not"
13. Using "on" instead of "to"
14. Mispelled the word "where"
15. Missing the words "do you"
16. No question mark after "go"
17. The word "on" is unecessary
18. Missing the word "it"
19. Using "on" instead of "to"
20. No period after "cubs"

Oh, and he decided not to use capitalization at all.

So I present this question to you BL readers. Is this, or is it not, a Mets fan in disguise?

CJ: So you're saying allowing 1 run per start half the time and getting blown out half the time makes Moyer a very bad #5 starter?

15 runs, 22 singles, 2 2Bs.


You boys and girls are giving me real belly laughs [laughs out loud].

There is no joy in Philly, is there?

One loss, and every flaw - or supposed flaw - on the Philadelphia Phillies baseball team is dissected, chewed on, swallowed and spit up.

I, for one, am very happy right now despite today's loss.

How, oh how, rolo, you ask, can you possibly be happy after a game like today?

Well, boys and girls, it's because I don't expect my team to be perfect.

You see, unlike many who post on this site, I'm rational.

On Monday morning, I took a look at the scheduled pitching matchups in the Cubs/Phils series. They were:

I said to myself on Monday morning:

"You know, AWH (I was still AWH on Monday), these pitching matchups do not favor the Phillies.

"Lilly has been pitching very well, Harden might be the best pitcher in baseball when he's healthy and 'on', and Zambrano is a horse. We have three pitchers going against them, NONE OF WHOM INDIVIDUALLY IS BETTER THAN THE GUY HE'S MATCHED AGAINST."

Then I said to myself:

"You know, AWH (I was still AWH on Monday), you really want this winning streak to continue until they break the record set by the 1916 NY Giants who won 26 straight. That would really be fun and historic."

Then I took a closer look at the 1916 NY Giants and found out they had another winning streak that season of 17 games.

Still, they finished in 4th place.

So then I said to myself:

"You know, AWH (I was still AWH on Monday), maybe this winning streak is overblown and in the end doesn't mean very much. What you really want is for your team to win another WFC. So, let's see what Jr. can do between now and July 31 and go from there."
So, I'm very satisfied with the way the Phillies have been playing because every team has a clunker now and then (the Cubs had one two games ago), and the Phillies were due for one.

We have the ACE going against the Padres tomorrow, and then the Cards in town for 3 games.

Win tomorrow, and take 2 of 3 from the Cards, and their record will improve and things will still be good.

Relax tonight and have a couple of adult beverages.

There's baseball tomorrow and our team will, at worst, still be 7 games up in the loss column.

Sure beats being a Mets' fan, no?

CJ: In keeping with your view that an inconsistent pitcher is a washed up pitcher, would you say that this pitcher is washed up:

4.2 IP, 4 R
4 IP, 7 R
7 IP, 1 R
6 IP, 5 R
5 IP, 1 R

Looks strikingly similar to Moyer's games, no?

rolo: Does AWH ever answer you?

Curt: Yes, those starts count. However, I am pointing out that there is a positive trend and that citing his 5.65 ERA on the season doesn't tell the whole story. Therefore, his situation is very different than Eaton's or Kendrick's last year, as they both showed in back to back games late of the season that they were not capable of even keeping the team in the game. So yes, we can't ignore those starts entirely, but I am a lot less concerned about his consecutive 7-run starts in early May than I would be if they had just happened.

Jamie's recent performance has indicated that what happened prior to May 20th should not be expected now that he is pitching better. However, it makes little sense to remove his starts against the Marlins and Nationals, because we still play 15 more games against those teams this season, so those starts can be reasonably expected in the future. Neither of those teams are abysmal offensively either (in R/G, the Marlins are 16th and the Nationals are 20th. While neither has a great offense, neither is terrible), so it isn't like any pitcher would automatically do just as well against those two teams. If you are trying to point out that Jamie is incapable of pitching well against teams who aren't the Nationals or Marlins, I would point out that he has pitched well against the Dodgers and Rays, who both have very good offenses. Even in the games where he has pitched badly, he virtually always goes 5 innings and rarely puts us out of position to win.

clout, who said anything about anyone being "washed up." The question is whether we can do better at #5, and the FO is obviously making an effort, as it should.

Durbin is my only real annoyance with the game. I'd cut him and put Lopez in his spot when Pedro is activated.

His walk rate and control are not MLB level anymore.

clout, only when I've had a few too many!

curt: We can do better at #1 thru #5, no?

"denny - Getting another starter as an upgrade over Moyer is pretty important but yeah Lidge has been a disaster this year. He deserves some real credit for trying to gut it out on a bad knee but at what point does he (or the team) realize that his performances are hurting the team more than helping."

I am with you. Hey, if the team can find an upgrade for the rotation, that can also help them in October, that will be great.

I am not a Moyer hater and think he is doing a admirable job as a 5th starter. He does have 9 wins, you know. He is going to have games like today. We all know it. As long as he gives them 2 good to every 1 bad start, that is probably enough.

But for all of those (including many of the so-called "experts" on ESPN/MLB/TBS) who think all the Phils need to do is get a Halliday and it will be time for another parade in the fall, they are sadly mistaken.

Would Halliday help? Of course. It would be stupid to not think that. But is Halliday going to close games in the 9th inning? Nope.

The 9th inning has been the major flaw (and not the rotation) from April to July this year. It was the major strength last year. It was a flaw with Lidge early. It was a flaw when Madson had trouble in that role. Its still a flaw now that Lidge is "back" healthy.

Halliday doesn't solve that problem. Cliff Lee doesn't solve that problem. Aaron Harang doesn't solve that problem.

And we all know nothing is more demoralizing for a team, no matter if its Roy Halliday or JA Happ starting, when you blow a game in the 9th.

I love the rest of the pen. But, the closer is not getting it done and unless that completely reverses in the last 2 months of the season, it will doom this team in 09'; Halliday or not.

clout: My point, as I've said numerous times, is that we can, and should, do better than Jamie Moyer.

You disagree? Interesting. I know you've stated before that a 6.00 ERA for a starting pitcher is acceptable.

I believe we can do better. When I first called for Moyer to be removed from the rotation, I said Happ should replace him. Then Park blew up and Myers went down. I haven't called for Moyer to be replaced again until now. I believe Moyer will get 2 or 3 more starts and then Pedro will replace him.

CJ: What makes you so sure that Pedro will be better than Moyer? Especially considering Moyer's recent performance?

Murgatroid: I'm not sure. I'm hopeful. I know what Jamie Moyer will deliver. It's painfully obvious. If Pedro comes in and fails, then we'll look elsewhere.

Murgatroid, what do you define as Moyer's "recent performance"?


Happy Pi Approximation Day to all!

CJ: But what about the pitcher with these nearly identical games?

4.2 IP, 4 R
4 IP, 7 R
7 IP, 1 R
6 IP, 5 R
5 IP, 1 R

He should be replaced as well, no? Or are you a hypocrite?

clout, sure, but Rube's a cautious, incremental kind of guy, esp. here in his first year. He's not about to blow up the WFC rotation #1 through #5. We've been getting upgrades around the edges. And Geezer's one very ragged edge.

Let's give thanks that Geezer wasn't "washed up" 2 years ago, as you expected.

rolo, your assessment of the series was spot on. I've learned that the pitching matchups can be an indicator of the probable outcome, but don't bet the house, because that's why they play the games.

Let's beat the sanitary Pads tomorrow with our (cough) ace.

curt: I'm not convinced he's washed up now although CJ and others have been predicting it all season. If the ERA trend was down, I'd be on board. But it's up, not down.

I'm happy with 2 out of 3 in this all of you should be.

I think Moyer is a 5ish ERA guy the rest of the way.

Is that good enough to stay in the rotation?

We must be spoiled; no two ways about it.

The Phillies win a World Series in charming fashion (and what Championship wouldn't be charming?) then bust out of a slump to go polar opposite and then some...ending up at fourteen games over .500 and we light them up for one loss in a series that they won?.....

That game was bad but they are now 10-1 in their last 11. I am also worried about Lidge, but even last year, in the coupla outings he was given with a tie score or the Phils behind, he got riddled. He's a different pitcher when he's closing the door..even this season.

I'm counting on Myers to be some nice insurance in the pen this October.

clout: You seem to be confused. My reason for replacing Moyer is not because of his last 6 starts. That's merely part of the overwhelming evidence.

I'm amused that you consider Jamie Moyer and Cole Hamels to be equal.

I do not.

Jamie Moyer has a higher WHIP, more BB/9, more HR/9 and fewer K/9. Moyer's ERA+ is 14 points lower.

But if you also want to replace Cole Hamels in the rotation, well, that's an argument you'll have to make without me.

Chris Duncan to the Sox for Julio Lugo? Pretty good haul for them today, eh?

I'd be astonished if Pedro replaced Moyer.


Moyer's ERA his last 7 starts: 4.91
Moyer's ERA the 5 starts before that: 3.77

Since cherry-picking is so popular here, I'd say his ERA is trending back up.

NEPP: Strangely, the Sox are also getting cash and a PTBNL along with Duncan.

Myers becoming the closer at some point this season doesn't seem to be out of the question.

Granted Boston is picking up essentially ALL of Lugo's salary but they were gonna be doing that anyway. Considering they were supposedly asking for a fringe prospect, Chris Duncan is a stunning haul for them. Epstein with a stunner. I was thinking a PTBNL period, not Chris Duncan AND a PTBNL. Duncan's purely a platoon guy but he does hit RHP pretty well (.851 OPS for his career). Odd move for the Sox to make but better than nothing.

This just wasn't the Phillies' day from the outset. I think I've learned not to bury the man quite yet, but I can't say I'm surprised by Moyer's performance. There's Jamie vs. the Marlins, & Jamie vs. the rest of MLB: the former is a thing of beauty, the latter most certainly is not. Regardless, a loss was bound to come along sooner or later, & I can think of far worse times than today. My only qualm is that Utley wasn't forced into taking a day off (he clearly needs it), & Charlie once again screwed the pooch w/ regards to the bullpen.

Now I know I'll find plenty of disagreement on this point, but I could not possibly care less how poorly Lidge pitches in non-save situations. So far as I'm concerned it's on Charlie for putting him into the game today at all. Why use Lidge when (a) the Phils are down by 3, (b) he pitched yesterday night & (esp.) (c) there is a stretch of 11 games in 11 days right ahead of you? The same goes for Madson. I know Charlie tries as hard as he can to win each individual game, but I think sometimes it's better for the long term to let one go. Today I would've let Durbin take his beating, no matter how ugly it got, & let this game go.

Oh, & one final note RE: Utley -- it would be a lot easier to sit him down now & again if the alternative wasn't Eric F*cking Bruntlett. Isn't it about time that bench situation was addressed? Rube? You out there, Rube?

CJ - read the BL bylaws. Numbers rule in the case of every player except Geezer. Since we like the old guy his numbers are irrelevant, or can be explained away, or don't tell the whole story, or....

curt: Just FYI, here's my post from the day of the Moyer trade:

That said, the Phils don't appear to have given up much. Barb is the only one of the two ever likely to taste the bigs and he's not among their top 10 prospects. Jason also makes an excellent point about Moyer having an advantage the first time through the league. Although Gillick's track record on deals has been very poor for the Phils so far, this one looks good at first glance.

Posted by: clout | Sunday, August 20, 2006 at 10:38 AM

Re: Myers as closer

The Phils are seriously downplaying a quick return from Myers. I'd love it if Myers could return in time to give our bullpen an inning every couple of days, but I doubt we'll get any more than that.

G-Town Dave: It's kinda hard to get upset at Manuel for his use of Lidge or Madson considering he had been tossed from the game.

I know prospects are important, I honestly do but we're talking about Halladay. We're talking about Halladay man. We're talking about Halladay. We're not talking about Cliff Lee or Doug Davis. We're talking about Halladay man. When you go to the Dome, and you see him play, you've seen him play right? you've seen him give everything he's got, but we're talking about Halladay right now.

But I thought Myers was gonna come back and be a stud closer (something he never even was when he was the closer) tossing 97 mph fastballs...

You're saying this isn't accurate?

clout, I was thinking of the one that winter where you were confident that Eaton would have a better 2007 than the old man. Nothing unreasonable about the prediction, but it is obviously not unreasonable to suspect the old boy is reaching the end of the line 2 1/2 years later.

re: I'd love it if Myers could return in time to give our bullpen an inning every couple of days.

Sounds like the workload of a closer to me. :-)

Shrink: So, what do you see...

Winter: Hmm... the results of Iceman taking out his rage on AWH/rolo?

Shrink: Nope...

Winter: Half of BL if we get Doc?

Shrink: Not really...

Winter: The other half of BL if we don't get doc?

Shrink: Look closer...

Winter: Well, it could be Howard swinging at another breaking ball out of the zone that he has no prayer of hitting...

Shrink: Interesting, you're almost there...

Winter: Ohh, I see. It's the extremely unlikely possibility of the Gnome actually getting a hit one day, establishing his status as our "go to" pinch hitter/utility man in one fell swing and securing his spot in Charlie's heart and on the post-season roster. Oh the horror, the horror! Look away! Make it stop, please make it stop!

Winter, I think he gets there by leaning into an inside pitch or by fouling off 3 or more 3-2 pitches before taking ball 4. Lead pipe lock if the bases are loaded at the time.

Don't look now, but the Braves are armed and ready and didn't get the Memo that Its Over.

Braves have lost 2 games in the standings over the past 10 played. I think we're okay for now. Even if they win, we're still 5.5 games up with 3 games in hand.

CJ: If you believe the manager isn't still making those decisions, fair enough. I truly admire your faith in people.

The Braves are most definitely are most serious competition for the division. Their pitching is fantastic.

I think we will still win the division, but it is certainly not "over" yet.

Just as people on here were way too down on the team when they went through a two-week slump, I fear people will be way too high on them right now.

Re: Moyer -- Don't get me wrong -- Jamie was certainly an asset last season. However, if we owe him $10M at 180 IP and 30 GS, there's no way the club should let him get close to any of those thresholds

I know he's not a top prospect or even really considered much of one at all but you cannot help but be impressed by Steve Susdorf so far:

42 of 101 on the year. Only 5 BB but also only 13 SO. Yeah, he's too old for Clearwater but he's batting over .400 (.416 to be exact). Perhaps they should promote him to see if its all just him being too old for Clearwater.

KK's pitching line (so far) tonight in Charlotte:

Kendrick, K P 4.0IP 6H 4R 4ER 0BB 1SO 1HR

Yo, newer thread

Winter, should I be fearing Iceman?

The Phillies had a wonderful little streak. Enjoy it, I know I did. Why are so many of these posters including Jason, just whiners? Someone needs a hug from their missing mommy.

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