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Tuesday, July 28, 2009

Comments

JW: 30-15 on the road.

It was one of those games they easily could have lost, great efforts tonight and it looked like 2008 all over again. With Haren, Lincecum and Caine to come, this was a great start. I'm excited to bring the juggernaut head to head vs the aforementioned studs.

Indeed.

Regards,

PHI Tired Jason

The way this team is going why sell the farm? We are playing with a hot hand, honestly I think we need bench help much more than starting pitching. Bench help and a healthy fall and we could repeat.

you mean "on the road", not "at home".

"If Hamels had allowed the exact same results not a peep would be heard from the peanut gallery."

Hmm . . . From the last game thread:

"sheesh, pull it together cole" Redbeard

"Ok, Hamels is getting hit extremely hard, I lied." Knight

"That's the Hamels who falls apart & surrenders cheap HRs when things don't go his way." G-Town Dave

"Who said this is the Hamels we know and love?" Hope SE

"Bizarre. How can you pitch 3 great innings and then just completely lose your command?" BAP

"The Jays leverage increasing by the minute." Curt

"Pods matching their game high run total since ASB. Nice, Cole." Curt

Mind you, all this was during a 7-inning, 4-hit, 3-run, 6-strikeout performance.

Any thoughts on the possibility of trading for Heath Bell to supplement the bullpen. He may be had for a reasonable trade package and I believe he's got a reasonable salary for next year.

The desperate 'Moyer is washed up' crowd has now transitioned from arguing about the actual topic to insisting that they do, in fact, needlessly b*tch about every Phillies pitcher. So whining about Moyer is no different.

Meanwhile, with essentially no more tangibly reasonable arguments to continue asserting Moyer is finished, we can now comfortably transition back to figuring out if Lidge is having the worst season of any closer in the past decade.

And, to augment my point, here are some of the "peanut gallery's" comments from Cole's rotten July 11 start:

"Hamels....WTF?" Kool Earl

"Glad we shuffled Hamels around to get another great outing in before the break." Joe

"At some point, someone has to ask: Has the league figured out Hamels? Or what is going on?" Hope SE

"Hamels ERA is barely a run better than Moyer's." curt

"b_a_p: Cole was awesome in the postseason, so it doesn't matter how he pitches this season -- No Criticism Allowed!" G-Town Dave

"I think cole needs to stop worrying about reality TV and adoption and filming commercials and watch some film and go over hitters before his starts." Tony

"These aren't exactly bloops that Cole is giving up tonight. These balls are getting hammered." denny b.

I don't see too much inconsistency -- let alone "hypocrisy" -- from the peanut gallery. If a pitcher is struggling, he's going to get ripped by a certain contintent on Beerleager. If that pitcher straightens things out -- as Moyer did after the 3rd inning tonight -- the peanut gallery quiets down or acknowledges that he is pitching better.

Iceman: Whether people use the word "washed up" is irrelevant. Here's the only question that matters: Do you want Jamie Moyer pitching Game 4 of a playoff series.

I say "no." I like Jamie Moyer a lot. And having him on the mound is not the worst thing in the world, especially given the Phils' prolific offense and reasonably steady bullpen. But the team has two more playoff runs before the core starts to break up. If I'm management, I want to put them in the best position possible in 2009 and 2010.

No offense to Jamie, but having him on the playoff roster is a question mark that can be eliminated with a trade.

I prefer to go into a playoff series with a rotation of Halladay-Hamels-Blanton-Happ. Barring that, I'll take Hamels-Lee-Blanton-Happ. That doesn't mean he's "washed up." It just means the team can do better.

Yawns.....I wonder if the Yankees or Red Sox would like a 5th starter who can pitch 6-2/3 shutout innings?

I'll leave it for the rest of you to argue.

Tough matchup tonight, with Haren on the hill for the Dbacks. The Phils counter with Hamels.

Low scoring game?

H

How many times has Bruntlett (.200 OBP) hit for Park (.313 OBP) ?

Having not seen the game last night, does "vintage" include a kicksave?

Kicksave Lidge isn't Vintage Lidge; that's Lucky Lidge.

Morning all-

We need to resurrect the Josh Willingham talk. 2 salamis last nite.

I've been reading BL for a few weeks now, and while I understand that it's fun to gripe, I think maybe y'all ought to back down on Jamie Moyer a bit.

It's not just that he's pitching reasonably well, although that's true. The man has an astonishing work ethic and tons of experience. This is now his 15th year winning 10 or more games; he knows how to win. He has more wins this year than any pitcher on the team. He had more wins LAST year than any pitcher on the team. He had more wins the year before, except for Hamels...

You need guys like this on the bench when you bring those talented youngsters up from AAA, to make them into the right sort of player. You need guys like this on the bench when the pressure's on in the playoffs. You can't measure his value by reading statistics. Moyer is a winner, and they'd be stupid to dump him so long as he remembers how to win. When he can't pitch anymore, we should keep him as a coach.

Moyer's the kind of guy who will know when to quit. Until he does, he's contributing, even when his statistics don't look so fine. We're lucky to have him.

Everybody's acting as if it's a given we're winning the division. Frankly, the Braves scare me, especially how we've faired against them head to head this year. I believe the Braves are for real, barring injuries.

shakenbake, I don't know how long you've been coming to the site, but your sentiments have been expressed by many others since ST.

Any serious baseball fan realizes that a team with a rotation like the Bravos should not be easily dismissed.

Now that they've added a bat or two, they seem primed to make as much noise as possible.

The Phillies are 18-5 in July. The Bravos are 15-8.

That's not too shabby either.

In July Moyer gave up 11 ER in 30 IP.

That's an ERA of 3.30

What a bum!!! Clearly he's washed up!

CJ, Jack, or BAP- how would you guys like to break the data down. What is the best way to prove Moyer still stinks for you?

And I already saw you guys trying but the discussion of whether you want Moyer pitching in the playoffs is a completely different discussion. You all at one point or another declared him finished as a starter. Don't muddy the discussion by introducing different arguments.

My tuning into this site has been sporadic this summer. So I somehow haven't seen much anxiety expressed re: Atlanta. Every commentator (CSN's Battalico, for example) seem to refer to the Phils winning the so-called weak division by default. I'm just glad we have an 8 game, I believe, gap in the all-important loss column. That margin will no doubt shrink on this trip.

Usually you can count on Chipper going down with a hammy for a stretch and one of their starters having TJ surgery. But the odds seem to be evening out after a miserable time of it last year for the Braves.
Maybe this is all another reason to take out a mortgage on the future to get Halliday, but even that doesn't guarantee the Phils the division.

C'mon. Nobody can honestly say that they want Moyer on the mound in the playoffs.

In order to be effective he needs the perfect storm out there: pinppoint control, a sympathetic umpire, an overly aggressive if not foolish lineup.

I'm not saying hes washed up or should be cut or can't win games for this team, just that he's not who you want pitching for you against a playoff lineup.

well maybe versus the giants...

Fact is, Grand Pappy Moyer has been following a very distinct pattern of good start/bad start over his last 9 appearances. Since his start against the Mets on June 11th, he's gone 6+ innings allowing 3 or fewer runs in alternating starts. In the other starts he's gone mostly just 5 innings while allowing 4+ runs.

I'm okay with Pappy pitching game 4. While he's more subject to a bad start than anyone else on the staff, the Phils have an extraordinary ability to come back. Thus, they can usually get out of whatever hole they find themselves in. And when Moyer isn't bad, he's still incredibly effective--especially when facing inexperienced hitters.

Plus, he brings the Utley mentality to the pitching staff (well, excluding Myers). How often do you see opposing pitchers blow it when covering first? Phillies pitchers since Pappy joined us?

carson, are you implying that Chollie should skip Moyer's nexr start and that they should call someone up?

Hey, maybe they could do this:

Put Moyer/Pedro/Lopez in the pen and have all three of them start every third game. They'd all be rested and fresh, and if one guy got in trouble early in his start you could easily plaug one of the others in to eat some innings! :)

Halladay brings Utley mentality

I don't know about anyone else, but I can't waitt until Saturday's matchup of Jaime Moyer vs Tim Lincincum. Ought to be a great pither's duel, eh?

Just finished the game thread and I have two thoughts:

Iceman, you are right, you have been right for weeks, and I appreciate your positive take in a sea of negativity. But do you realize you pulled a TommyD and hijacked an entire thread last night, a game thread at that? One, two, maybe five times should be enough.

Truth Injection: How difficult is it to type with your nose that far up Clout's butt?

SmokyJoe, OUCH!

Way to start the morning off on a positive note!

Do you guys think the Jays will stick to their Hallday deadline today?

Truth: With all due respect, Moyer got himself out a of a few jams last night that could've easily gone the other way against a better hitting lineup. I love Jaime Moyer and the fact that he is still getting it done at the age he is at is beyond amazing to me. But I think the guy is pretty close to needing to hang it up. His ERA is still over 5 (I think). He can't seem to consistently pitch a string of good games anymore. But ten wins is ten wins, he still gets my vote for this year.

Granted I don't have all the stats and I also don't study stats as heavy as it seems you do. I'm just going of my naked eye and think the needle is closing in on E for this guy. But what a helluva a pitcher

Agree the Phillies shouldn't think they have the division won before August.

The Braves have an easy schedule remaining, other than 7 with the Dodgers and 9 with the Phils (6 in Atlanta).

The rest of ATL's schedule includes 9 with the Nationals (they end the season with 4 at home against Washington), 9 against the Mets and 6 vs. San Diego.

So clearly, the Phillies still have to TCB in their divisional games.

Smoky: So when someone agrees with me they have their nose up my butt? What if someone agrees with you, although given your ignorance on the subject of baseball, that's fairly rare, do they have their nose up your butt?

I agree that the Willingham talks should start back up. I think Willingham would easily be our best bench player if we were to acquire him.

Slugga, the question is: What do the Nats want for him, and, after last night's performance and the positive PR it generated for the franchise (of which there has been very little), can they afford to trade him (from a PR standpoint)?

Most impressive intelligence from my man Jack last night was that Moyer, the 5th starter, isn't as good as the Phillies 4 other starters.

Stunning insight.

Tim from W'port: Should he quit now, while's ahead? If not, when?

Bay Slugga it would be hard to find a worse bench player than the current ones we have.

The Phils could be 40 games over .500 and you guys would still find useless crap to argue about.

FWIW: I think right now Moyer would be your 4th starter in the playoffs. If they add a guy like Halladay and don't get rid of Happ, Moyer would probably be in the bullpen come playoff time.

Tim: I agreed with that in the game thread though. However, a big thing to me with a pitcher is how they get out of trouble. He went through the 4-6 hitters rather routinely in the 3rd. He got a double play ball out of Drew in the second. A few other times he had guys out on their front foot at change-ups and got some lazy pop-ups. Also he really settled down his last 4 innings.

SmokyJoe: Do you type with your nose?? I can see your comedy material is on par with your baseball knowledge.

Just so clout and company don't continue under the impression that I'm the only one who feels this way:

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http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/51790917.html?cmpid=15585797

David Murphy:

1) We know that the Blue Jays are playing it smart by acting as if they have all the leverage in the world. On paper, Toronto does have all the leverage. Not only do they have several different partners from which to choose, they have the freedom to sit out this dance if they so choose. After all, Halladay is the team's most popular player, provides a noticable draw at the gate, is signed through next season, and surely can be moved in the offseason. Toronto is trying to say, "Look, we really don't want to move Halladay. But if you give us a reason to move him, we will." Hence, an asking price that starts with J.A. Happ and Kyle Drabek.

2) We don't know if the Blue Jays actually have that leverage. From the time Ricciardi "let it slip" to Ken Rosenthal that Halladay was available, he has acted and sounded much like a man who is under orders to shed salary and shed it now. For the first couple days of Halladay's availability, Ricciardi spoke with every media outlet short of the Weekly Reader, insisting to each one that the Blue Jays would only listen, yet in doing so sounding like a man who needs to make a deal. We won't actually know what the case is until Halladay is traded or July 31st comes and goes without a deal. The Phillies are obviously hoping that Ricciardi is bluffing when he calls the chances of his ace being dealt "very slim."

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I'll repeat what I've said before: IF (not when) Halliday is dealt, the buzz of the baseball world will be how little the Jays got in return for him.

It is my belief, based on the situation as a whole, that the Jays are in dire straits financially. They obviously aren't going to throw themselves at the mercy of the league and beg rivals to trade a bucket of balls for a superstar. They're playing their hand as best they can, but the best they can do is bluff and hope for the best.

Toronto is in the first stages of a full scale clearance sale. Everything must go. Halliday may go now, or he may not, but between now and this time next season, Toronto is going to make the Marlins 1997 fire sale look like a lemonade stand. I've been saying this (and being mocked for it) since the moment Ricciardi tipped his hand by going to the press in the first place. I'm sure I'll be mocked again by clout looking for "factual evidence" (which, unless I am hired as their accountant, is nearly impossible), but this is my deduction based on all that I have observed. Bookmark it if you like, but I think the next season and a half of Toronto baseball will play out exactly as I've predicted it would: a team with little or no leverage doing whatever it can to lighten the financial burden.

"I don't know about anyone else, but I can't waitt until Saturday's matchup of Jaime Moyer vs Tim Lincincum. Ought to be a great pither's duel, eh? "

mikes77= hater.

Mac Tonight surfaces! I wonder if Halladay can still be had for a package that features Carpenter, Kendrick, and Donald?

Clout, while you may be the most snarky, mean spirited poster on this board, you have shown to be very knowledgable in the past. If you were doing anything other than trying to get Jack's goad with your various HR/RBI vs. OPS arguments last night, well I may have misjudged you. There have probably been over 10 arguments you have had in the last year where you have discounted HRs & RBIs vs OPS and OPS+ (and rightfully so). So I'll asume you were trolling a bit with Jack, but you didn't know that TI would jump on the hook at the first sign of bait.

TI & Clout,
Exactly what have I posted that leads you to the conclusion that I'm ignorant on baseball? Is that the best you can do? Well, OK then, I'm rubber and you're glue.

I miss phargo and her pleasant "Good Morning".

P'Blunt, don't pay too much attention to mikey. He, tommy and phlipper are cut from the same cloth.

(Am I trying to instigate, or what?)

Mac Tonight: "acting like a man who needs to shed salary," is not the same as "The Blue Jays absolutely must shed salary."

Also noticed you didn't quote this part of Murphy's article: Now, there is a whole lot of conjecture masquerading as fact when it comes to the Phillies situation.

Smoky: You should probably go back and re-read the thread from last night where I asked Jack if he thought Howard's numbers (whch are currently ahead of last year's at this point) were going to go down. I used all the stats Jack wanted without using HR and RBI'S. So we can add reading comprehension to your lack of skills. Comedy, Baseball Knowledge, Reading comprehension- you don't know what you want to suck at.

"I wonder if Halladay can still be had for a package that features Carpenter, Kendrick, and Donald?"

I think it's equally likely to his being dealt for Happ, Drabek and Brown, or any of the outrageous proposals batted around.

I've played cards with men like Ricciardi. I go out of my way to find guys like Ricciardi to play cards with. What appears as leverage in these discussions is, in reality, pure desperation. Perhaps if there were more teams with spendable cash and tradable prospects and/or if there were less teams with quality pitching to trade, Ricciardi might be negotiating on solid ground, but the reality of the situation is that he's bluffing and Amaro (and likely every other GM in the game) knows it.

The sky high asking price is going to change dramatically in three days. The league has called their bluff. The only question is whether they'll cut their losses and take what they can get, or if they'll try again this winter and compete with the free agent market.

MLBTR:
Phillies manager Charlie Manuel is trying to persuade his GM to go after Zach Duke, who won't become a free agent until after the 2011 season.

Interesting to hear from the skipper.

clout: Are you asking me if he should just throw up his hands and say "That's it, i'm done"? Probably not. He's still doing a pretty good job in 5th rotation spot.

Truth: He is a master at getting himself out of a jam but arguably this lineup is not very potent. Moyer thrives on young hitters who swing away. Even with a tight strike zone last night (from what I heard) they still swung away. I also contend that he's just not a very consistent pitcher anymore. Here are his last 10 starts:

6/17 vs Tor 6 IP 6 ER
6/23 at TB 6 IP 1 ER
6/28 at Tor 5 IP 4 ER
7/4 vs NYM 6.1 IP 1 ER
7/9 vs Cin 5 IP 6 ER
7/16 at Fla 7 IP 0 ER
7/22 vs Chi 5 IP 4 ER
7/27 at Ari 6.2 IP 0 ER

One good game, one bad game basically. I'll take it from my 5th starter guy but definitely not for a playoff game unless it's an emergency.

For TI & Clout...it's long & requires math comprehension, but both of you claim to have superior baseball knowledge, statistical analytical skills, and reading comprehension skills. This is the abstract from a paper I wrote in College several years ago for my Applied Statistics class:

The problem with most modern baseball statistics is that they are (mostly) derived, in one way or another, from OPS. Despite the apparent contradiction, the goal of baseball offense is not to get on base or to slug by hitting doubles, triples, etc; the goal is to score runs. Getting on base or slugging at a certain rate certainly can (and will) contribute to scoring, but those activities do not create runs in the same manner that the measurement would predict, and also fail to give credit towards certain baseball activities that do in fact contribute towards scoring runs. Does a walk really have the same effect on scoring as a single? What about with a runner on second & third with two outs, what is better? Is a triple really twice as likely to create runs as a single? What about a sacrifice fly, or a ground ball to the right side with 1 out and a runner on third? The net result of OPS has been to overvalue walks and undervalue singles, along with missing other aspects of the game that the old-timer would find fundamental to good baseball
The Runs Created stat is a nice attempt to measure a player’s impact towards creating runs, but as many people have pointed out, the ability to score a run or drive in a run is dependent on others in the batting order (unless the player hits a home run), which means that a certain player’s results are directly dependent on his current team’s makeup and batting order. Another issue with many of these stats is they mingle the statistical analysis of past events with actual results. In real statistical analysis, the current actual events need to be kept separate from the statistical analysis of the past data, and then only used to compare versus what the statistical results suggested.
So what is the solution? It’s both simple and complex at the same time. I’ll call it a “Run Contribution Percentage per Game” (RCP), with each event of an at-bat carrying a “Run Contribution Factor” (RCF). I would use statistical analysis to go over some period of time (10 years, 20 years, etc.) and load every single regular season at-bat into a database, along with the actual result of that at-bat and whether it led to a run or not. Since scoring a run has both a runs-scored and RBI component, each would be worth ½ point. For instance, a strikeout or any out that does not advance a runner would be worth zero. If the average homerun over the course of the sample was a two-run HR, then a homerun would be worth 1.5 RCF (one for a player driving himself in, .5 for driving another player in). Every other possible at-bat outcome would have a value in between, based on the statistical likelihood of that at-bat leading to a run.
For example, a 20 year statistical analysis might show that a ground ball out that advances a runner might directly lead to a run (which otherwise would not have scored) maybe 5% of the time, which would give that at-bat outcome of .025 RCF. The same statistical analysis may show that a single leads to driving in 1 run 25% of the time, driving in two runs 10% of the time, and scoring one run 30% of the time, for a grand total of .375 RCF ((.25*1 + .1*2 + .3*1) * .5). A triple may lead to driving in 1 run 35% of the time, 2 runs 15% of the time, 3 runs 5% of the time, and scoring a run 55% of the time, for a total of .655 RCF.
Obviously, the above hypothetical examples were just educated guesses. The real analysis would lead to each activity’s RCF, which would then be applied as a constant factor to each at bat of a player. The average results per game would lead to the RCP, which would approximate statistically a player’s average contribution to scoring runs per game, or stated another way, as a proxy towards the number of runs per game that he contributes to.
Once again, it is important to separate the statistical results from the actual events. A player hitting a homerun would get 1.5 RCF points for that at-bat, regardless if it was a solo shot or a grand slam. However, what is good about the RCP statistical measurement is that actual results can be compared to the “statistical results”, showing just how relevant the statistics are. For instance, if the total RCP for a team over the course of a year was 5.5, but the team in fact scored 4.4 runs a game, then either the team was incredibly unlucky, or this particular statistic, as derived, is not relevant as a proxy, or aspects affecting the game itself are evolving, such as changes in equipment, changes in the strike zone, etc., or the original statistical analysis failed to account for all parameters that affect scoring runs. Comparisons made over different time frame samples would help to draw conclusions about fundamental changes in the ways runs are scored over different periods of times, and an iterative process of comparing expected results to actual could lead to a refinement of the RCF.

Um...Truth...I'm not sure if you ignore lines like "It is my belief, based on the situation as a whole", but I never claimed what I've said about this situation to be gospel truth. I don't have inside knowledge and I'm not claiming that what I'm saying is "fact." What I am doing is looking at the situation as a whole and formulating my opinion, which is that the Halliday situation has been one of the most obvious bluffs from a GM that I've ever witnessed, whereas you and clout seem to be limited to the narrow view of "OMG, an ace is going to be dealt. Lets give him everything he wants and hope it's enough". I would absolutely love the opportunity to play cards with either of you.

Your continued imitation of clout as relates to Smokey is comical. It's beginning to remind me of that "toadie" kid that hangs around the bully Scott Farkus in "A Christmas Story."

I wonder if a package of Drabek, Carrasco, Brown/Taylor and donald would get a trade done for Halladay?

After reading Murphy's blog this morning, it sounds like the Phils love Carrasco's stuff, but his makeup/maturity/consistency needs to improve.

It sounds like they don't feel Carrasco is going to be ready by 2010-2011, especially since reports have said they're worried about 2011 and beyond. IMO if they thought so, they might be less reluctant to deal both Happ and Drabek.

It also sounds like they think Carpenter is a AAAA pitcher, which his MLB performance so far seems to indicate.

I wonder what they think Bastardo's ultimate potential is? If they thought he was going to be ready in 2011, wouldn't they feel better about letting Drabek and Happ go?

Just speculatin'.

Mac: The Yankees said they would include Jaba in a package for Halladay. Considering all your arguments about the state of the Jays, their leverage, and the economy, do you think a Jaba for Halladay trade would be a fair deal?

PhillyBlunt-

Daily News backpage for Saturday:

The Tortoise vs. The Hair

This 10 win season milestone for Moyer is pretty special, especially in our new age of pitch counts reducing the number of decisions for starters. What if Moyer wins five more games before the season ends? 15 wins for an old codger would be pretty super. Kick the old dog to the side of the road (a little BL logic there)!

Bay Slugga: If I were the Yankees, I wouldn't trade Chamberlain for Halliday straight up, let alone as part of a package, but in the current economy, I'd say a 1 for 1 deal would be fair.

If Carrasco can't contribute to the Phils rotation in 2010, there's a good chance he never does.

If Happ and Drabek are both dealt for Halladay, they might have to consider CC next year.

Remember those Bowa t-shirts a few years back: "Now is the Time"... to go for broke and get Halladay.

Mac Tonight: What does Murphy mean when he says, "We don't know if the Blue Jays actually have that leverage."

That's not your position at all. You have declared that the Jays MUST trade Halladay. Murphy is saying we don't know, but we'll find out Friday if Ricciardi is bluffing, as you claim, and settles for a package of lesser prospects as you predict.

MAC: Two things:

1.) The Murphy quote does not back you up that the Blue Jays absolutley must dump salary which is the drum you've been beating for 2 weeks now. It is Murphy's speculation based on what Riccardi is doing. Not a fact. Something Murphy mentions before he says it.

2.) I invite you to go find where I said, "Trade for Halladay, give them what they want." I've said numerous times I think the Philies would regret trading Drabek. I said the price the Jays asked for was way too high. I also posted the quote from a Jays source where they said, "They (Blue Jays) would want every last good player in a team's system," to which I replied, "No thanks."

Ozark: I wonder if the Brewers has printed those shirts for Sabathia.

Our rotation may not be the '95 Braves, but it's not a disaster either. I'd much rather see Amaro tell the Jays to shove it and go for Zach Duke.

Then, if they Jays don't make a desperation deal at the deadline, offer Carpenter, Worley, Donald and Carrasco this winter, and if they decline, tell them to shove it again.

Mac: You wouldn't make that trade? We aren't talking about some John here - this is Roy Halladay! I understand your POV, and you actually make some interesting points. The problem is that you are exaggerating these points to the extent that you think Halladay 100% has to be moved, and the Jays only will get 10 cents on the dollar. You are delusional if you think a fair deal for Halladay would be Happ straight up - no matter the circumstances.

BedBeard, he's only 22. Do you really think he has to show himself MLB ready by 2010?

To wit, Happ probably wasn't ready by 23 yrs old, and he seems to be a serviceable #3-4.

Suppose CC still has his suff at 25, and everything 'clicks' for him then?

My overall point in the post was to get people thinking about how the Phillies view CC, Carpenter et.al., and whether or not the FO feels they can "count" on them contributing after 2010.

If they trade Drabek and Happ for Halladay, they'll be fine for next season. The rotation would be Halladay, Hamels, Blanton, Moyer, and _______ (RoLo, Bastardo,Pedro,CC,Carpenter,KK??? - who knows?). That's a pretty good 1 - 3.

But if the reports are correct, they're worried about AFTER 2010. The rotation would be Hamels and ______???

No one else is signed, and I suspect that if they really thought they could count on CC, Carpenter, KK or whoever, they wouldn't be so reluctant to part with Drabek AND Happ.

Slugga, on BL, the correct way to refer to a no-name player is not "some John".

The correct term is "some dude".

Just helping.

Clout and Truth: You're both wrong. I never once said that the Jays HAVE to trade Halliday. I said that they HAVE to dump salary. I think you're once again demonstrating your ability to twist the words of other posters in order to strengthen your argument.

Truth: "It is Murphy's speculation based on what Riccardi is doing. Not a fact. Something Murphy mentions before he says it."

Um...buddy, why is it that you're able to see that, but when I say nearly the EXACT SAME THING, you choose to ignore it?

Remember that part when I said: "I'm not sure if you ignore lines like 'It is my belief, based on the situation as a whole', but I never claimed what I've said about this situation to be gospel truth. I don't have inside knowledge and I'm not claiming that what I'm saying is 'fact.' What I am doing is looking at the situation as a whole and formulating my opinion."

Um, yeah... I'd like to believe that since you're able to pick out the part where Murphy isn't claiming his opinion as fact, you're able to offer me the same courtesy. I have never once, in the past two weeks, claimed that what I am saying is the gospel truth. It is my opinion based on what I have seen.

Clout: Thank you for once again trying to tell me what my position is. As usual, you are a waste of bandwidth who comes here to stroke their ego in order to feel better about a life that you're not happy with. If picking fights on BL is all you truly have in life, I pity you sir.

Ahh, I can hear it right now. Both Clout and TI feverishly clicking the keyboard to search Google to see if I just stole that from something online. Either that, or maybe they are still on the first paragraph.

Duke would be a very interesting option. He scuffled a lot in his first two years but this year has really started to flourish.

Of his 20 starts 14 have been "quality." 6 of those he lost becasue of poor run support.

Two other starts he went 7 and gave up 4 runs. There is a common belief that pitchers- on average- hit stride at 27 which he is still a year from. Could be a really good move depending on what you have to give up.

"You are delusional if you think a fair deal for Halladay would be Happ straight up - no matter the circumstances."

Slow down there. I do believe we were talking about Joba Chamberlain for Halliday, not Happ.

Since you brought it up, however, I think anyone with half a brain would agree that Happ for Halliday would be ridiculously one sided, but the market being what it is, I'd sooner keep Happ, his manageable salary and the money to make a serious play in future trades or in the FA market than to tie all of that money to a guy whose arm has been ridden like Smarty Jones over the past three seasons.

Yo, new thread

Everyone woke up on the wrong side of the keyboard again. I think we need a common enemy to unite the Beerleaguer faithful. Is Bruntlett in tonight's lineup?

rolo/AWH: That's true, but the guy is scuffing in AAA and in your thoughts, it would seem he would be struggling again next year. That would be 2 1/3 years in AAA. I wouldn't give up on him, but major concerns would be raised and I know you're just throwing the thought out there, but if he's still struggling in AAA at 25, umm that's not good.

I hope Amaro has enough resources to keep someone glued to the waver wire in addition to the much ballyhooed potential pitching trades.
This team is going great . But 2 bench players should be easily replaceable --Bruntlett & Bako.
Still don't understand cutting Coste for Bako.
Bruntlett is an OK defender but shouldn't PH for anybody. I would rather activate Milt Thompson or even Charlie than see Bruntlett with a bat in his hand.

Jamie Moyer was brilliant in the second inning. THree base hits, nobody out, nobody scores! How do you do that? Moyer did it by holding the first runner close to the base with 5 pickoff moves. WHen the second hit came, the runner couldn't advance to third. When the thrid hit came, the runner could only get to third becasue it was weakly hit and the Phils armed and dangerous outfield. Two pop up later, the innig is over with a strikeout thrown in. Brilliant! Crafty veteran. He's going to make a great pitching coach and turn mediocre pitchers into consistant winners--like himself.

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