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Wednesday, July 22, 2009


From last Thread:

GTown: Ok, I understand. BUT the ONLY reason that happened was because in case Park was needed he was warm. Then we get into the 8th and Charlie used his "role" guys. Madson in the 8th & Lidge in the 9th. After still being tied Park was ready in the 10th. Nothing wrong with that.

As I have said over, over and over again. Pitchers feel comfortable in certain spots ( i.e. Madson in 8th, Lidge in 9th). You can not just change players "roles". IF Madson and/or Lidge pitched the 9th/10th instead I feel we would have lost the game. It is a mental thing with uys. I am telling you. BLers refuse to believe in the "role" thing. I said that Madson wouldn't do well closing and look what happened. These "roles" ARE NOT interchangable.

Also, just to rub some salt in the wounds of some BLers ( AWH, clout, BAP in particular). How about that Ibanez catch? If that were the Babe out there, he would still be chasing that ball.

There were time's last year where I could not have been lower on Charlie. Idiotic decisions, too much confidence in guys who weren't producing, etc. But he, and the team, pulled through better than we could have ever hoped.

That being said, I've been infinitely more impressed with his managing this year. It's been a hectic ride at times, particularly with the pitching problems. As of today though, I could not be more pleased with the coaching staff.

Though of course I wish they would send the Gnome to the showers in the sixth inning every game just so Charlie wouldn't be tempted to use him.

(from last thread)

G-town Dave appears to be correct that CHP was signed for only one year and not extended yet beyond that. I'd like to see him locked in before he goes FA. The sooner the better.

My only objection to using Lidge in the 9th is that he's been scary in non-save situations (even last year). Fortunately, he came up withthe bicycle kick and all went well.


A great game all around last night. The 3-5 hitters struggled at the plate but you can also chalk that up to some great pitching by the Cubs. Both teams got some outstanding work from their starters and bullpen guys.

Last year when the Phiilies made the trade for Blanton I said this is a guy with good stuff who can be anywhere from a #2-#4 in the rotation. I said, "if he hits spots, and trusts his stuff he has shown the ability to mow through hitters in spots and be hard to hit." I was roundly mocked by many of the same guys who give zero insight to this board. Lately Blanton has looked like a legitimate force in the rotation.

Credit Where Credit Is Due:

Charlie Manuel knows his players. The man's tactical decisions still frustrate/infuriate me to no end, but I have really come to appreciate how well Charlie reads & interacts w/ his guys.

Also to recap, this is what we've learned so far on here this season:

Jimmy Rollins is hitting .348 as of late. But I thought he was down being a productive member of the offense?

Just like Jamie Moyer was finished back in May. And the season was definitely over when we were 5 games behind the Marlins at the end of April.

Are you saying that I shouldn't listen to some of the posters on Beerleaguer?

Great catch last night by Ibanez. I remember all the BLer naysayers complaining about Ibanez' defensive skills when Rube signed him. I have no complaints. He's plenty good enough for me.

Does Ruben get credit for the Ibanez and CHP signings?

Anybody disagree that CHP needs to be signed for next year ASAP?

I am really glad Moyer has turned it around, but I still can't understand why some people were so bothered by the suggestion that Jamie's horrific start of the season meant that he was cooked. The guy is incredibly old. Its going to happen some time in the not-too-distant future. His era is still highest on the team except for Lidge's. It was simply not far-fetched to say Moyer was finished back when he was getting beaten up game after game, and I don't see why it bothered so many BLers.

tommy, once again you have provided us with evidence of why you have been given the nickname:

leviculus tomas preur

I just don't understand your psychological need to say "I told you so". It is, at best, rather immature.

Have you reached puberty yet?

To wit, none of the other posters you mentioned above have had any issue with Ibanez's defense, except that, at the time of the signing, statistically he didn't look like much of an upgrade from Burrell.

If I recall, the major objections (mine, anyway) to signing Rauuuul was the lack of balance in the lineup, and the wisdom of giving a player his age a 3 year deal.
To compliment Raul, he has hit LHP much better than expected - those expectations being based on the lifetime splits he put up prior to 2009 - though 2008 looked like an outlier.
For us to have had the "lineup balance" objection was perfectly reasonable at the time he was signed.

For the record, and I KNOW I speak for the others on this subject, we are HAPPY that Ibanez has worked out so well.
We will see in the next two years how well his body holds up for the length of the contract.

Because I am a Phillies' fan, I hope it does.
As far a you are concerned, you need to grow up, gain a little maturity, and get over yourself.

He gets credit for both but a caveat on the CHP signing is the promise of a chance to start. Other than that CHP has been a great signing.

At what point does UC get serious consideration for Manager of the Year?

Today's Lineup (via Zolecki on Twitter): Rollins SS, Victorino CF, Utley 2B, Howard 1B, Werth RF, Dobbs LF, Feliz 3B, Bako C, Moyer P.

limoguy: I have no objection to re-signing Park ... but don't you think he might still be pining for a return to a starting role, & try to sucker another team into trying it next season?

If Park is smart, he'll aim for a 2-3 year deal as a reliever and he'll likely be out of our price range for middle relief. I would guess something in the $2-3 million range annually if he keeps this up. We already have Madson/Lidge/Romero locked up at high rates...I doubt we lock up another reliever.

As Durbin has shown as well as countless others, relievers are fungible.

Has a defending WS champion manager ever won manager of the year? The expectations are higher, so I doubt he gets it.

As of right now, I think it goes to Torre or Bochy. Dodgers were good last year, but are much improved this year, have the most wins in baseball (by 5 or 6), and have the biggest division lead.

I think the Giants are a big surprise team, who really only added Randy Johnson, but have improved greatly.

NEPP - promising him that and following through on it as an organization seems to have worked out very well. It may very well have been what got him here as opposed to elsewhere.

CHoP is also 36. Just sayin'.

CHoP will be Moyer's age in ten short years. I'd be wary of any long term commitment for CHoP.

"gtown/bap . . . aren't you ashamed/embarassed to even post on beerleaguer after last night? you two whined and cried about every pitch the entire game."

phaithful: What constitutes whining, in your opinion? Taking Cholly to task for burning through his bullpen too fast, and not getting an extra inning out of his best reliever, even though he threw just 8 pitches? Saying that the Phillies have blown too many opportunities? Saying that the 5-pitch Bako-Bruntlett-Rollins inning was hideous? Saying that Eric Bruntlett is the worst player in the history of baseball?

Critiquing a manager's decision, or making an in-game observation about the team or its players, is NOT whining. Geez. This board sure would be boring if you turned it over to people who think that any comment other than "Rah-Rah" should be off-limits.

A nice 10 game winning streak would certainly quiet down all the nay-sayers.

"At what point does UC get serious consideration for Manager of the Year?"

Whatever the criteria IS for MotY, it always seems to go to a manager whose team wasn't regarded highly by anyone but ended up exceeding expectations. WFCs don't really have the luxury of exceeding expectations... they can merely hope to repeat the success of yesteryear. So even though we as fans get the priviledge of intimately looking at the job Charlie done... and the subtle moves that we highly appreciate... it isn't a flashy team-turnaround that normally demands the MotY award.

I'm curious if anyone thinks, especially those who think Park was grousing about things, that Park would have been happy as a reliever from the start of the season? He got his chance and now knows where he can be productive. Who knows what would have happened to Happ. All the pressure of starting the season, as opposed to being the hero and picking up where someone else couldn't.

I think, as this post is about Charlie handling his players, his handling of those two this season should be looked at a little closer.

I'm hearing Moyer is scratched and Kendrick is in - can we confirm this...

This winning streak is nice, but the team still has three holes:

1. Lidge needs to get healthy and get it together
2. No. 2 starter
3. Righthanded bench options

The front office can't really do anything to help Lidge and they're not going to replace him.

They're the leading contender for the best pitcher in baseball and reportedly scouring the league for other options. So they got that coverd.

Isn't the bench the easiest of those three problems? They have a bunch of mid-level pitching prospects and need for two righthanded bench players. Get it done.

I'm glad that Charlie resisted the urge to go with wholesale substitutions today. I get the whole day game after a night game line of reasoning, but come on. This team is en fuego. Ride the wave as long as you can.

What a difference a couple of days make, and WHAT A DIFFERENCE in the reaction of posters on this site.
The Phillies beat the Marlins 6 - 5 a few days ago, and many here were incessantly whining about the bullpen giving up a 4 - 1 lead. Our esteemed host even titled a thread

"Irritating win evidence of needed bullpen upgrades".
To no avail, AWH repeatedly tried to counsel others that sometimes you just have to give the opposing team's hitters some credit:

"Give the Fish some credit for staging a comeback. They are not exactly a weak hitting team, and have arguably the 2nd best offensive player in the league in their lineup. To "blame" it all on the Phillies 'pen is giving no credit to the Fish.
To wit, when the Phillies staged the 5 run comeback against the Reds to win in the 9th, we gave all the credit to Phillies hitters and their resiliency, their toughness, their 'never say die' attitude. How about a little credit for the Fish - it's not the Pads' offense we're talking about."

Posted by: AWH | Saturday, July 18, 2009 at 10:41 AM

"Wow, still no credit being extended to the Marlins' hitters on this board?"

Posted by: AWH | Saturday, July 18, 2009 at 11:12 AM
Now, we have some of the same people obeisantly praising the bullpen to the point of nearly recommending cannonization for some of them.

At the same time they are remarking that the Cubs' pitchers deserve some credit for shutting down the Phillies lineup.

So, I need to ask, how is it the Cubs' pitchers deserve credit for their performance last night, and the Marlins' hitters didn't deserve credit for their comeback on Friday?

smitty: Zolecki's Twitter page says it's Moyer. But for some reason Dobbs is starting in place of Ibanez.

With regards to Moyer, just for fun, let's look at where he might stand at the end of 2010:
Currently at 255-191 WL
He has about 14 starts left, let's assume he goes 7-4, ending the season at 262 wins vs. 195 losses.
So, he manages to pitch another season, losing a little, so he goes 13-12. Now he's at 275-207.

25 wins away. Still going strong. Would he be tempted to sign up for 2 more years? Would any team let him sign for a minimum contract? Can Jamie Moyer conceivably reach 300 at age 49? If so, is there any way in this world he would ever be considered for Cooperstown?

It's a good thing Moyer is in because, if the pitching matchup had been KK v. Zambrano, I might have started whining before the game even started.

bap, Raul is coming off a groin injury, and it's a day game following a 13 inning night game.

No secret as to why Dobbs is getting the start.

I'll stick my neck out and predict a good game for Dobbs at the plate today. His swing looked good last night, despite the lack of results.

bap, LOL!!!

Extend CHoP? Put me on the "not necessarily" list. The guy is a bit of a head case. Let's see how he responds when things aren't going so well for him - which historically has been not so well.


It's certainly an interesting question. Moyer currently sits at 255 wins, with a career ERA+ of 105. Assuming he hangs around for 3-4 more years, he could conceivably end his career with 300 wins and a career ERA+ of 100..... precisely league average over his career. In that case, I think most would look at him as a compiler, so he'd have a tough time getting in.

No way in hell Moyer gets to 300. I'd be stunned if he makes it to 275.

MFiP: That would make him the first 300 game winner not to make the hall. In the past 300 wins made you a lock. But I agree with you. As much as I love Moyer, I don't think he gets in no matter what. His longevity is remarkable, but it doesn't make him great. The Hall should be reserved for the great. Another interesting point; how many have one say 260 and not made the hall? Not too many I'm guessing.

NEPP, I don't know. He's functioning at a league average level right now. He's earning a paycheck from the best team in baseball, and carrying his weight. I would be suprised if he made it to 300, but if he pitches to the end of his contract, I think 275 is easily within his grasp by the end of next year.

Bert Blyleven

Tommy John

That's off the top of my head. There are several others.

This little ditty is from Rosenthal's latest:

"Right-hander Rodrigo Lopez, who has made exactly three starts for the Phillies, might actually become a trade candidate once righty Pedro Martinez joins the rotation and/or the club trades for a starting pitcher such as Halladay or Lee. Lopez, 2-0 with a 2.60 ERA, could get moved in an August waiver deal, if not sooner. His $650,000 salary is affordable to all ..."

If that happens I'll have to change my handle back.

Jim Kaat

Post-1900 guys who had more than 260 wins but are not in the Hall of Fame (excluding those not yet eligible):

Jim Kaat, Bert Blyleven, and Tommy John,

****NEPP, I don't know. He's functioning at a league average level right now. He's earning a paycheck from the best team in baseball, and carrying his weight****

Yeah, he's been solid since late May. 11 GS, 4.21 ERA and all.

I question how much he'll have left in the tank by the end of the season and next year is all. Personally, I'd love to see him do it as I love watching the man pitch.

NEPP: Yeah I thought of all of them too. I'm betting there are probably another 10 or so. Still not too many though.

rolo - are you AWH?

My Korean colleague informs me that "Chan" in "Chan Ho" is pronounced "Chun".

I'll repeat my post from the last thread.

What a bunch of cry babies! Oooh, I can't stand reading negative comments during a game thread. Waaaa! Be quiet about Cholly's managerial moves duing a game and don't question any of Cholly's tactics or decisions. Baaawwwlll! What a bunch of sissies!

Real men like bitching and complaining during games. As our esteemed Phillies leading philosopher Chase Utley has said in the past: "Boo, F#@% you!"

No, those are the only 3 after 1900 who have won 260 or more games and are not in the Hall of Fame

rolo, what was your former handle?

Noah: Are they the only ones? I figured there'd be a handful more. I will look it up when I get a chance unless you already did.

For the record, there are 8 pitchers who have won 260 games and are not in the HOF, the most recent being Mike Mussina.
The Pirates have apparently traded Adam LaRoche, though no one where and for who.

My guess: Bosox as insurance for Lowell.

AWH: Excluding guys who are not yet eligible for induction.

Noah: Thanks. And Wow.

And you could probably argue that at least Blyleven and TJ have much stronger HOF cases. Blyleven especially.

I've been on the side of the fence thats hesitant to spend the prospects on Halliday. Seeing that hes 32 and can become property of the yankees, red sox, or cubs in two years I don't know if i'm enthusiastic about trading youth.

I know hes not necessarily available but what about blowing Arizona away for Haren? The guy is lights out, 28, and under contract until 2013 i believe. He's a guy id trade taylor and drabek and whoever for because he can be a cornerstone of the franchise for five years.

Arizona is going nowhere with the current roster. maybe trading mayberry, taylor, donald, etc, even werth, would get them to come around.

and for the love of god ruben get a right handed bat for the bench. pretty please.

LF and JB, I 'announced' yesterday, that in order to honor the Phillies 5th starter I was changing my handle to "rolo" until his next start.

Best regards,

Haren would cost a bit more for one. He garnered a hefty trade before he was locked up and, if anything, he's a far more dominant pitcher now.

Starting Pitching has been beyond solid. This team is going to average 4-5 runs a game by the end of the year, but as long as the SP can keep them close in pitcher's duels like last night they're going to fine.

Obviously during playoff time we'd love a 1-2 punch of Hamels and Halladay, but you're probably going to use only 3 or 4 starters in the playoffs and right now I want Country Joe and Happ pitching in the playoffs. And for whatever reason Moyer will probably lead the team in Wins when the season is over. Unreal.

Oh, I actually stopped counting at 300 wins.

There are 4 pitchers with over 300 wins who are not in the HOF as well.

None are curretly eligible.

i'm very willing to pay the price for haren

rolo, thanks! And here I was thinking, this new BLer named rolo is writing some good stuff!

Watching Bako and Bruntlett bat back to back for the second time in about a week and a half triggered my gag reflex. Bring back Miguel Cairo if neccesary but this is a downright disgrace.

If Moyer pitches through this year and next and then retires and a couple things occur like another WS win that he's involved in, he might, MIGHT get in as a Veteran's Committee type guy in 30 years due to his very very unique skillset (the number of guys with the same amount of wins after Age 30 is very small and pretty much all HoF guys.)

If he got in, he would not be the worst pitcher in the Hall by any means nor would he be anywhere close to the elite HOF guys (Schmidt, Walter Johnson, Carlton, Ruth, Mays, Mantle, Koufax etc). Personally, I think there is a place in the Hall for guys like Jamie that are paragons of how the game should be played and have contributed immensely on and off the field. I doubt he'll ever be voted in during his years of eligibility though simply because the stats arent there and the voting group has gotten much more stat-saavy (other than Jim Rice's pity election) in recent years.

mvptommy: I was at the game and what struck me about the Ibanez catch is how slow he was. This is not something you can see on TV, but have to see the whole field as the play unfolded. It was a great catch and great effort by Ibanez. But most leftfielders would have glided to the ball and been in easy position to catch it without having to lunge. Ibanez is not a fast runner. You might be the only person on the planet who would say that he is.

NEPP, I am on record as as posting that I would favor a trade for Haren over Halladay, and would be willing to give up more for him, for all the reasons PHIinBK mentions.

To me, 4-1/2 yrs of Haren would be worth:

Happ, Drabek, Knapp, Taylor and Marson/Donald.


Haren is a huge upgrade over Happ, and Drabek and Knapp are just prospects.

Is it guaranteed that Drabek and Knapp are going to produce at the MLB level?

Also, there is no guarantee that they'll be able to re-sign Hamels after 2011, and Haren would give them an ace for two more years.

Haren also gives them more time to draft and develop other pitchers.

Yes, it would be a big price to pay, but you'd still have the other guys bubbling up in the minors, as well as arguably the position player with the most upside in Brown.

By 2011-2012 the Phils shoudl be able to restock the system somewhat.

Most of the current "core" of position players is under control until then anyway.

I second the comment that Ibanez was slow to that ball. Still, he got there and made a very nice play. Other LFs would have, also, but I doubt Burrell does. I also noticed on teh play immediately prior that Ibanez walked very slowly, if not gingerly, back to his position. I was hopeful that he was merely trying to preserve his energy that late in teh game and, I think he was. Not surprised he's going to be a spectator at the start of today's game.

Adam Laroche traded to the Red Sox. No word on what the Pirates got back.

The reason why tommy is justified in continuing to say "I told you so," is that other posters simply refuse to say "Ok, I was wrong."

We read over and over from those that consider themselves "in the know," that the Ibanez signing was wrong-headed because the Phils needed to replace Burrell's RH power. All along, posters who made that need paramount neglected the upside of the Ibanez vs. Burrell comparison in career stats.

Just based purely on career stats, and not the uptick in Ibanez's numbers this year relative to his career stats, Burrell's RH power was being replaced with someone who would be facing (opposite-handed) RHP more than (same-handed) LHP, and someone who meant exchanging a higher career average with someone that had a higher career OBP due to a higher walk rate.

Arguably, in the Phils lineup, and based purely on career stats, it should have been obvious that the Phils would be better off with the #5 hitter in their lineup (with weak hitters to follow) that is getting base hits in exchange for getting on base via a BB.

Some, who consider themselves "in the know," ignored that trade-off and simply perseverated on Burrell's higher OPS, in particular versus LHP. They went further, in fact, to ridicule anyone who pointed out the weakness of their logic," and claimed that anyone that wasn't similarly obsessed about replacing Burrell's RH power hitting was an "idiot."

One thing is clear - those that denigrated the trade-off of Ibanez for Burrell were, flat out, wrong. To justify being wrong about that by referencing career stats is perpetuating the wrong-headedness that was apparent to others all along.

So, again, until certain individuals just man up and admit they were wrong, I think tommy's "I told you so" posts are justified.

This Tony Bernazard sounds like a real class act. I am so happy to be a Phils fan and not a Mets fan these day.

Ibanez is Jesse Owens compared to Pat Burrell.

I'd LOVE to have Haren...I also dont think he'd be put on the market even if they lost every game between now and July 30th. He's the cornerstone (along with Drew & Upton) that they need to be building on.

On Raul: He's faster (markedly faster actually) than Burrell and that's all that's needed in LF at CBP. With Vic & Werth playing the other two positions, Raul merely needs to be average to give us a great defensive OF. His arm is quite above average despite a somewhat slow release. I love Raul, he's a gamer and he turned out to be the perfect fit for our lineup. He swings and makes contact in critical spots. Burrell always did that infuriating stick his arms out crap that either ended in a SO or a BB...neither of which usually brings in the runners.

Our FO makes a huge deal out of getting character guys that fit in the clubhouse (ie passing on Manny, Soriano, Bradley etc) and Raul really fits the mold. The guy honestly looks like he's in better shape than anyone on the team and he plays like a guy that's 30 instead of 37. If they keep giving him days off, I think he'll be a very good bat the other 145 games he starts over the next couple years. If not, Taylor and Dom Brown will be ready (whichever is still around) to take over his spot or at least platoon with hm.

rolo:, or anyone else who would want Haren over Halladay, are you at all concerned with Haren's second half splits the last few seasons?

****Adam Laroche traded to the Red Sox. No word on what the Pirates got back.****

Probably a bag of balls...

Werth replaced Burrell's RH power and production and he is a superior all around player to Pat anyway. Essentially, Ibanez is replacing Jenkins in the lineup from last year. We are a much deeper lineup this year because of the emergence of Jayson as an everyday player and Ibanez massive production. Jenkins got 322 PA last year somehow.

Thanks, NEPP, for reminding me of the other major fallacy in the arguments of posters who claimed that the Ibanez signing was wrong-headed -- the simplistic pounding on Ibanez's age without giving due consideration to the mitigating factor of his exceptional conditioning.

While they're at it, maybe the "in the know" posters can man up on that issue also?

Yeah. Like that will happen.

The Pirates: everyone's favorite farm system.

****Joel Sherman of the New York Post wonders if Nick Evans and Daniel Murphy are even major league bench players. ****

Great headline from MLBTradeRumors. Seriously is Daniel Murphy the most overrated guy since Francouer. He can't play any position (he bombed defensively at 2B, LF and 1B now) and he has no power. He's a Jason Michaels type player with no defense. At least Jason could cover all 3 OF spots respectively.

Hugh: I agree with you re: Burrell.

Oh my goodness! phlipper (tommy's mutual man crush?) has reappeared.

Hibachi: NO!

Ricciardi's publicly stated that it's unlikely the Blue Jays will trade Halladay. Guess he lost interest once the Phillies took Drabek off the table. That, and moving the deadline up to July 28th to get anything done (wonder what that's about).

Really, if we had to trade Happ, Drabek, Knapp, and either Brown or Taylor, that price tag would be entirely too high. Halladay isn't worth the moon, and that's what Ricciardi's asking for.

"Werth replaced Burrell's RH power and production and he is a superior all around player to Pat anyway. "

Which was part of the argument made by those who favored the Ibanez signing - that this year Werth would be playing full time instead of being platooned as in the past.

Can someone give me comparison stats of the Phils' offense at this point of this year as compared to last? I remember also being "ridiculed" (by those "in the know") for predicting that with the replacement of Burrell with Ibanez - on the whole - this year the Phils would be better than or at least equal to last year offensively.

Burrell would have made the safe play and played it on the bounce or off the wall for a double. Burrell knew his limitations and almost always made the safe play to avoid the "dive, miss, triple" result.

doubleh: Do you think they shouldn't have traded LaRoche? Was he such a big part of their success over the last few years that he should be deemed untouchable?

Does anyone get the sense that flipper is angry and bitter about something? Maybe he and mac tonight (whose posts read suspiciously similar to flipper/phlipper's) should see the same shrink.

"Oh my goodness! phlipper (tommy's mutual man crush?) has reappeared."

I guess your need to launch a personal attack means that you were one of those "in the know" that posted specious logic about the Ibanez signing, eh rolo?

Just a hunch.

Jack: No, no one's untouchable on the Pirates, apparently. They just always seem to be building for the future and I feel sorry for their fans.

****Ricciardi's publicly stated that it's unlikely the Blue Jays will trade Halladay. Guess he lost interest once the Phillies took Drabek off the table. That, and moving the deadline up to July 28th to get anything done (wonder what that's about). ****

Total BS by Ricciardi. Its all a negotiating ploy. He's trying to drum up interest and make an artificial "drop dead" date to pressure the teams interested. Makes him sound a bit desperate actually.

I'd say there's about a 90% that Halladay is traded.

And clout follows suit as well.

Let me guess - you were also one of those whining about the loss of Burrell's RH power?

So predictable.

I think there is no pressing need to get hallady if you can fine if not no matter. Pedro unless injured surpass the expectations of most there is something about being able to compete for the ultimate prize that has a way of summoning what is left in a player and when that player was once great many times they can recapture enough that greatness to win it all one last time secondly myers will be back there is no reason to think that he wont clock mid 90s when healthy so the pen is not a problem the right handed bat off the bench however you do need no getting around that

And clout, I love your paranoid post about me and Mac being the same person.

Especially since it was, as I recall, either you or AWH who posted under dual aliases as you tried to dig out from under calling Parker an idiot for saying that KK was "bad at times" last season.

Appreciate what Moyer has done for the Phils but he has been less than adequate a starter and his 9-6 record is largely of enjoying some of the best run support in the NL.

He still isn't a guy I want to see starting a playoff game for the Phils especially in a 5-game series.

While Myers may be back sometime in late August/early Sept., it is presuming an awful lot that the Phils don't need to make a bullpen move because of Myers' return.

If anything, a return by Myers' would be an unexpected bonus and hopefully the Phils could wrap up the NL East early enough so that they could figure out how Myers might fight into their postseason plans.

Quick Jason, new thread!

Yes, please, new thread. Apparently, a lot of people had p*ss in their Wheaties this morning.

You'd think the team was in the midst of a 10-game losing streak...

flipper/phlipper: Since we already know you've used multiple screen names why is paranoid to suggest that you and the equally bitter mac tonight are the same person? Have you ever seen any posts that remotely resemble yours, aside from mac? It's the same bitter and angry sniping, post after post.

Lake Fred: real men bitch and complain, eh? 10 to 1 odds your wife/g/f has you by the balls if that's the standard to which you hold your 'masculinity.'

Chase's quote was actually "Boo? F*ck you." It wasn't an endorsement of boos, smart guy.

NEPP: 100% correct on Ricciardi's posturing. It's all a part of the game. I put Amaro's declaration that Drabek is "untouchable" in the same category.

philliper: You are really mis-stating the. opinion expressed by many in the off-season regarding Ibanez.

I was one who thought Werth could take Burrell's spot as the right handed bat.

However, I thought giving 3 years to Ibanez was not a great idea. If his numbers come back to earth in the last year and a half of that contract it will be a middle of the road deal. He is earning his keep right now and exceeding all logical expectations, but he could look like dead weight in year 3.

phlipper, you're obfuscating now.

What I was responding to was your defense of tommy's incessant need to keep saying over and over and over and over and over and over "I told you so".
Most of us who favored a RH bat instead of Ibanez (check the archives - I thought Manny's "bat" would be better than Raul's - never mind the other stuff) have acknowledged that Raul was a good signing - for now.

We get it.

However, what the signing looks like three years form know remains to be seen. We've already lost him for 21 games to a groin injury.
So, if you want to continue to defend juvenile immaturity that's getting old then that says more about you than anyone else.

Great game last night by Park, I don't think the Phils should sign him to a multi-year deal given his age and the age of the team. If he continues pitching well he could conceivably end up as a Type B free agent, and I would hope the Phils would offer him arbitration. In which case we either bring back a valuable bull pen arm under a 1 year deal, or lose him to some team that tries to make him a starter and we end up with a draft pick.

Which Nostradamus-like posters would have predicted correctly four of more or these current stat leaders without using the MAGIC 8-ball?

AVG: Ibanez .310 - concentrate and ask again
HR: Ibanez 25 - my sources (clout) say no
RBI: Howard 69 - signs point to yes
SB: Rollins 16 - outlook good
W: Moyer 9 - don't count on it
ERA: Happ 2.68 - very doubtful
Saves: Lidge 19 - it is decidely so
K: Blanton 96 - reply hazy, try again

RBI and Saves are no-brainers - the rest are debatable to unbelievable.

" It's the same bitter and angry sniping, post after post."

Pure irony.

rolo - Once again, to give a full evaluation you need to also compare Ibanez to Burrell over the next three years. Related to that point, although Ibanez has missed time - the younger Burrell missed more time, no? That is another reason why simply pointing to Ibanez's age next year and the year after is a shallow point. The guy is a stud. All indications are that he will significantly outperform any assessments made simply on the basis of his chronological age.

At this point - given what Ibanez has meant to the Phils this year, I'll be willing to give him a lot of leeway in years to come anyway.

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EST. 2005

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