Phillies labor in back-and-forth loss; Jays sweep

Frustration over the Phillies' halfhearted effort has yielded to a fear that injuries, fatigue and holes will lead to a hard fall until the All-Star break.

Credit the Blue Jays for taking three on the road, but there's no excuse for the Phillies to get swept at home against a below-average, depleted Blue Jays' pitching staff. With mounting injuries of their own, the Phillies are in no position to take anything for granted, but that's exactly what they did in the horrid series that ended with an 8-7 loss this afternoon. At what point do the Phillies realize there will be no Brett Myers this season? When do they recognize that perfection will no longer come from Brad Lidge? Now? Now, after starting the homestand 1-5? Now that their most productive player has gone on the shelf for an undetermined amount of time?

But bearing down will only do so much. The bullpen is battered, beaten and eyeing Antonio Bastardo's start a little over 24 hours from now. They're desperate for pitching. They've hit the interleague wall, just as they did last June. Many would argue that everything came up roses. Perhaps, but that team was perfectly healthy, while the current club is falling apart before our very eyes.

Injuries handicap every to club and cannot be predicted, but something must be done to get this team to dig deeper and improve the focus at home. Up 0-2 on Rod Barajas, there's no way he should be getting a letter-high fastball. Ryan Howard. After six years in the league, he must know B.J. Ryan is throwing him a down-and-away breaking ball. The front office. They must recognize that they've allocated resources to the wrong areas, and it's had a direct impact on the downward spiral.

Comments

[clout]

The most serious problem is the need for pitching. Ruben needs to come up with a solid SP and, if possible, another bullpen arm.

BTW, hope everyone saw Mayberry's arm in RF. That's why Werth was shifted to LF.

P.S. Anyone ever heard of a groin injury that began in April, but didn't have any impact on a player's performance until the end of June?

[doubleh]

clout: Maybe he didn't tell anyone about it until recently?

It is worrisome, however, because groin strains can become groin tears very quickly. See Briere, Danny's 2008-09 season. Do. Not. Want. To. Relive.

[High Hopes]

As there seems not to be a top of the rotation type veteran starter available, perhaps the phillies should target a prospect like Clay Bucholz. Drabek and Carrasco ain't ready, and can't be relied upon for anything this year or next. Penny won't relieve the bullpen unless he's in the bullpen (given his Moyer-esque stamina). Blanton can rip off a couple nice 6-7 inning games in a row, but look at his overall stats this year and last, he's a back end guy on a good team, and right now he's pushing it at that. JA Happ is our second most reliable starter, and its not even close. Frankly, he's been our best starter this year given that Hamels hasn't truly stepped it up outside of his one performance against the dodgers. Ironically, as Mayberry shows his value, we are in a catch 22 as we now can't trade him until Raul is back, though I wouldn't be opposed to just promoting Michael Taylor and throwing convention out the window if the oppurtunity required it. As bad as things are right now, there's no sense overpaying for the Penny's and Marquis', might as well wait to see if some of the top level talent regain their health/become available. What's the latest on Webb?

[J. Weitzel]

Without another starter, the Phils will linger in contention because of their offense. With a starter, they sail into the post-season. The division and league is not strong.

[clout]

JW: Agreed 100%.

[bay_area_phan]

Not sure anyone's going to do any sailing. The Mets will be a lot tougher when they get Reyes, Delgado & Maine back. And there are so many teams in position for the WC, it's pretty much impossible to predict which of them is going to be left standing when it's all said and done.

The NL East and WC races have both gone down to the last week 2 years in a row. I don't see any reason to believe that it's going to be different this year.

[kart racer]

Even if we get Penny, we probably still need another starter, so I would give Donald for Penny for now if that was enough for the Sox. Then they can maybe try to get a stud later on. Doubtful though.

I have always liked Penny so I am biased.

[bay_area_phan]

The RedSox need a SS now. When Donald got injured, that probably nixed any hope of a Penny-Donald trade.

[kart racer]

Yup, all the trade ideas are falling through..Rube will have to get creative

[Zudok]

Will someone please dig up that photo of Barajas allowing that guy in Atlanta to slide between his legs, safely into home? It's one of the many highlights from his illustrious Phillies career. We need to see that today. Hello? Jason Marquis? Come quickly, we need you. Not Penny. Not Bedard, please. Ruben, do what you must.

[brad]

I don't see the phillies making a move in the short term. A few contenders need to drop out of the race and create less of an imbalance between supply and demand on the market. The only viable acquisition right now is Pedro, and who knows if he would contribute, or how quickly he'd be ready to take a spot in the rotation. Then again, there is very little chance he is any worse than say, Kyle Kendrick. Paul Byrd is another free agent, but his home run totals terrify me.

[old grandad]

Brad Penny has lasted an average of 5 1/3 innings in 13 starts this year. He hasn't gone a full 7 innings in one of them. Last year, he went 7 innings only twice in 17 starts. Just what this depleted and overworked bullpen needs. I wouldn't take this guy if the Sox offered him to us for nothing and even agreed to pay his salary.

[HEYCHOLLY]

Ben sheets?

[The Truth Injection]

Agree with JW and clout completely. With a solid starter the Phillies waltz into the playoffs. I don't really think we need a bullpen arm though. Right now we are in a freaky part of the schedule where they have played extra innings in 4 of 8. Three of those games were in a row. On top of that they were playing from behind in all those games where they had to keep pulling pitchers to try and maximize at bats. Another game they had a rain delay and some sloppy play that caused extra work. That obviously won't continue.

Once this settles down I think the bullpen will be fine.

If you can find a way to get Penny, I'd be all for it. I also think trying to bring in Pedro would be a good move. Maybe you can talk Pedro into being a bullpen guy?

Otherwise though- there is a lot of time left in the season and baseball is a war of attrition. The Phillies just need to weather this storm.

[IOP]

Phillies Fans circa 2007: "Get out Barajas, come back when you can block the plate, much less wash dishes!!!"

Phillies Fans circa 2009: "So, um, look Rod, we said some thing we didn't mean. You know how things get emotional sometimes. You know we never really liked Coste anyway. What, Bako? You know that was just a stupid one week fling. It was nothing. Come back Rowdy Roddy, come back."

[McG]

I live in OKC and watched Mayberry play a lot for the Rangers AAA organization. He is a great player. We ripped the Rangers off in that trade(again) but I'm afraid that this recent call up because of injury will be his audition to be used as trade bait to acquire a starting pitcher.

[Andy]

"they've allocated resources to the wrong areas, "

Exactly.

But it's really hard to beat Tashner and Bako and Gnome. A law-firm for the Shire.

[MPN]

Andy: Perhaps we just look to the east on the morning of the fifth day and all will be well again..........

[mikes77phillies]

Jason Marquis?
What's with this sudden love for Jason Marquis? When did he become a #2 starter. He should not be the primary target for the Phillies. The Phillies will get to the playoffs whether they obtain a starting pitcher or not. Any starting pitching acquisition should be made with any eye toward playoff matchups.
Jason Marquis does not help the Phillies for the playoffs because they will not win games 2, 3 or 4 with Blanton , Marquis and Moyer as the pitchers.
The Phillies need a legit #2 in order to push the rest of the staff where they belong in the playoff rotation. Marquis is not a #2 and he really is'nt even a #3.

[BobbyD]

Since there's no logical reason why the Phillies can't win at home, how about an illogical one: the weather. It's been crappy for the better part of the spring, and the Phillies are a warm and sunny kind of team. That's all I got.

[Billy Baroo]

K-Rod blows the save and Mutts lose. Small victories.

[Kool Earl]

It seems like when ever the Phillies tick me off with a crappy loss, the Mets take the edge off it with a stinker of their own.

[Jonesman]

I am starting to think the AL East might be a little bit better than the NL East. The Braves lucked out in getting one less Interleague series.

[Billy Baroo]

Jonesman: Don't forget, the Fish swept the Jays right before they came in and emBarajassed the Phillies.

[BobbyD]

More proof that the Mets are no threat unless the Phils really go in the tank.

[doubleh]

Jonesman: What will Chipper complain about then if their schedule is more favorable than everyone else's?

idk about AL East being better, considering the Nats have taken 2 of 3 from the Yanks. The Braves and Marlins swept the Jays. We took 2 of 3 from the Yanks. The Mets took 2 of 3 from Boston. I just think the Phils have trouble with IL play and certainly the Jays offense benefitted greatly from playing in our ballpark and facing our worn out/less than stellar pitching.

[kart racer]

I think Interleague sucks for everybody somehow.

[doubleh]

BTW, the Good Phight put up some good numbers to show just how bad the Phils are in the month of June. When you extrapolate IL play, the Phils have a winning percentage of .603 for the month. It's totally playing AL teams that kills them.

See the research here.

[G-Town Dave]

"Taschner, Bako & Gnome: A Law Firm For The Shire"

Andy - ROTFLMFAO!!!!!!!!! :-D

And "Yes!", knowing that the Mets also went down in flames *does* have a way of making one feel a bit better about this baseball life ... :-)

[Tray]

"Jason Marquis does not help the Phillies for the playoffs because they will not win games 2, 3 or 4 with Blanton , Marquis and Moyer as the pitchers."

We won with Myers, Blanton and Moyer and Moyer didn't pitch any better in the playoffs than he's pitching now, really. I don't really think Marquis would be much worse than Myers, do you?

[king myno]

Tray - I just hate that it's so easy to talk ourselves into a Marquis/Penny type now. I think when JW says adding a starter = guaranteed playoffs, he means an Oswalt, not another 3/4/5 type.

[Mac Tonight]

There is an absolute zero chance of Oswalt leaving Houston.

There is next to no chance of Peavy or Halladay coming to Philly.

We might as well discuss pitchers that actually have a shot at being acquired, and with the Rockies recent success, it's very possible that we'll be able to land Marquis as well.

Here's the question: How much of the farm should they be willing to give up for a half season rental of a slightly above average pitcher? Should they go balls to the wall in 2009, or hold on to what they have and hope for the best for this season and seasons to come?

[Anamels35]

J.W.'s point of Howard's "eye" in the batters box is absolutely true. I can't believe he is still swinging letter high...at a ball that's diving low and away. It's so frustrating to see a man with so much power and potential. If he just had a little more patience...but I digress.

In looking at possible trade partners, what the hell happened to the Arizona Diamonbacks? This was a team that won their division in 2007, started rolling everyone early in '08 until the Phillies met AZ for 4 in the desert. Since that point it seems that this team has done a nose-dive. They're 15 GB in the West. This is a young team, but they have 2 of the best pitchers in baseball (Haren is pitching well this season and Webb is scheduled to come off the DL soon). Does anyone here think that the DBacks would be willing to deal Webb or (preferably) Haren?

[Tray]

Well sure king, we'd all prefer a legitimate No. 2. I just don't know how many of them are available. Even in the case of a Bedard, I'd think they'd want a lot, if only to placate their fanbase. They traded Adam Jones for him, and he's already putting up All-Star numbers in center at the age of 24. So you'd think they'd want a lot back.

[bay_area_phan]

As I recall, mikes doesn't want Bedard either. He only wants guys who have no chance of being traded.

[bay_area_phan]

Marquis isn't the sexiest name in the world but, at least for this year, he is pitching like a No. 2. And since he has had one very similar year in the past, there's reason to think that he can continue to pitch well for the rest of the season. Of course, now that Colorado is back in contention, there's probably little chance that they'll trade him.

[doubleh]

After watching this team play IL for the past week, I feel like I've got beer pitcher goggles on. At this point, everybody is starting to look good to me. But that's part of the danger of knee-jerk reactionary thinking...there's a lot of pressure on these young arms to win some games this weekend. I hope they can shut the O's down the way the Phils were shut down by pitchers they had never seen before.

[bay_area_phan]

Now I can't remember where I read it, but there was an article earlier today which speculated that the Phillies will make a trade very soon. One of the reasons for the speculation was that Pat Gillick is apparently in town, so the theory was that Ruben had brought him here to consult on a possible trade. It got me to thinking: if Gillick's involved, one potential name that springs to mind would be Gil Meche, who is probably the only active player left from Gillick's Mariner teams that hasn't yet had a stint on the Phillies.

When KC signed Meche to that 5 year, $55M contract 3 years ago, they were widely ridiculed. Well, guess what? He has turned into a pretty damn good pitcher. KC looks unlikely to contend this year, so it's possible they could trade him. I imagine the asking price would be pretty stiff, though, since he has 2 years left on his contract.

[J.R. King]

I have to agree with Jason and clout and disagree with b_a_p: If the Phils had a No. 2 starter they (along with the Dodgers and Red Sox) would be in a class by themselves. The division, including the Mets, are week.

b_a_p: David Murphy of the Daily News wrote on his blog about Gillick being in town. Gil Meche would be nice. I have the feeling Rube will end up with someone like him that no one is talking about. Funny how the $12 million he is owed in the next two years is not seen as reasonable. He also has a no trade clause, by the way.

[J.R. King]

I meant Meche's $12 million is NOW seen as reasonable.

[kuvasz]

"Waltz in the play-offs with another starter?"

I would like Clout and Jason to elaborate on the particulars how getting a guy in to start about 15 games can do that. Does that mean are we talking about a guy whose starts translate into Phillie wins each time? Because even the best pitcher known would not win much more than 9 of those 15 starts.

And what about the remaining four guys in the rotation? that is 80% of the games. Hamels might, just might return to form and win a few more than he'll lose, same with Blanton if he's lucky, but after that who is expected to win more than they lose? Happ? perhaps, but certainly not Moyers, Bastardo, Park, Kendrick, or whomever they promote from the minors.

Even if you get 6-7 good innings out of these guys each start as a group you still have to rely on a suspect bull pen that loses leads on a regular basis.

I think that the club has a lot more problems than resolving them with a starting pitcher and it points to poor management decisions made over the last year.

[J.R. King]

kuvass: "a suspect bull pen that loses leads on a regular basis"?

Do you realize how many innings they have pitched over the last week? Do you think that has something to do with they way they have been performing of late? Do you think the bullpen was put together well last year, but that this year the exact same squad (minus Gordon plus Park) is the result of "poor management decisions".

I don't want to speak for clout or Jason, but I believe replacing Bastardo with, say, Cliff Lee would give the Phils a lot more chances to win and significantly reduce the number of innings for the bullpen. Remember: When used sparingly, these guys are capable of putting together strings of shutout innings.

[J.R. King]

There's another reason to target Gil Meche: Mike Arbuckle now works for the Royals as special assistant to the GM.

Didn't he scout Carrasco? When he left the organization, Carrasco was the only prospect worth talking about. Plus, didn't he scout and draft Joe Savory? Maybe the Phils can get the deal done without parting with Michael Taylor.

The Phils are now a big market club and the Royals are in the smallest of small markets. The Phils are one of the only teams willing to take on salary this year and they need to use that to their advantage. Sweeten the pot with KC by offering to take on dead salary like Coco Crisp ($5.75M plus $0.5M buyout) and Ron Mahay ($4M). The Royals can have Carrasco and Savory and save $34 million, all for one front-line starter.

I'm officially on the Gil Meche bandwagon.

[Tray]

"Because even the best pitcher known would not win much more than 9 of those 15 starts."

Well I don't know about that. Given our offense being what it is, or what it usually is at any rate, I'd like to think we could go 11-4 in those 15 starts. I also like the Meche idea.

[ftl John]

I had a discussion with a friend regarding what it would be like if the Phils played in the AL. We came to 5 points:

1. We would be battling with Baltimore and Tampa for 4th place.

2. We would probably still have Jim Thome.

3. We would have a murderer's row of lefties in our lineup.

4. Cholly would never have to worry about pitching.

5. Cholly would cream his jeans.

I say we take a flier on Sheets...what the heck.

[mikes77phillies]

bap said, "As I recall, mikes doesn't want Bedard either. He only wants guys who have no chance of being traded."

You recall wrong. I was one of the 1st on the board that said they wanted Erik Bedard. My only issue was that I did'nt want to trade Taylor, Brown or Dravek for him. Now that he has had arm issues, the Mariners would probably take what they can get.

[mikes77phillies]

Tray sai, "We won with Myers, Blanton and Moyer and Moyer didn't pitch any better in the playoffs than he's pitching now, really. I don't really think Marquis would be much worse than Myers, do you?"

No, I don't think Marquis is much worse than Myers, but Myers has had #2 potential his whole career and pitched like a #2 late last year.

I don't expect Cole Hamels to go 5-0 in the playoffs this year. Blanton pitched a little over his head in the playoffs last year. Jaime Moyer was mediocre/bad in last years' playoffs, and is no where near as good a pitcher this year. Therefore, they need a pitcher that is as good or better than Myers to even have a chance in the post season. They don't need a guy that is 'just a little' worse than Brett Myers.

[ozark]

I wonder if the Phils would be forced to create a package deal involving a current outfielder such as Werth and possibly platooning Mayberry and Dobbs. Priorities...

[Tony D]

Trade Werth and Drabek for Halladay. Call up Taylor.

[clout]

kuvasz: Have you seen the rest of this division? Injuries and all, this Phillies team is better than last year's and there is no outstanding team in the division.

[tw]

It doesn't sound like the Phillies are looking at Pedro: he's throwing in the Dominican for the Yanks, the Angels, the Cubs, and the Rays. Looking for a $3 mil deal plus bonuses for the rest of the season.

http://mlb.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20090619&content_id=5412198&vkey=news_mlb&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

[clout]

"I had a discussion with a friend regarding what it would be like if the Phils played in the AL...We would be battling with Baltimore and Tampa for 4th place."

Yeah, in a division with a great team like the Yankees who just got done crushing the lowly Nats...oh, wait.

[clout]

I forget which poster said Bastardo was better than Tommy Hanson after Hanson's bad first start (my guess: mvptommy or mikes77), but here's where they stand after 3 starts:

Hanson 17.2 IP, 2-0, 4.08
Bastardo 12 IP, 2-1, 5.25

[thegreenebros]

Its days like this that I like to wake up and look at my World Champion hat, and breathe a little easier. No reason to sell the club down the river, because, oh yea, next year the window will still be open.

[Alex]

Conlin on Taylor today.

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/20090619_Bill_Conlin__Phillies_prospect_Michael_Taylor_a_heavyweight_five-tooler.html

[mvptommyd]

clout: Well it wasn't me that said that because I would NEVER argue over prospects. It is very foolish to do.

[BobbyD]

ftl john: well if the phillies were in the al east, you'd have to take one team out. so without deciding which team is out, how can you have that conversation?

[Hydrant]

The emerging Gil Meche bandwagon has spurred me to do some research...

He has a full no-trade clause. I don't think his name has been active in trade rumors and there is not even speculation on thoughts of staying in KC or where he would be willing to go.

So, I guess this is another Peavy-type situation?

[ZT]

I'm all in on trading Werth and calling up Taylor. A lot cheaper, and a 30-30 guy like Werth could probably pull a lot.

[mvptommyd]

Hydrant: I get the feeling the Royals aren't trying to trade anyone this year because of them actually getting better with Coco Crisp, Jacobs and others coming in there. Not going to expect them to move anyone including their good starters.

[mvptommyd]

ZT: What is this love affair with Blers and Taylor? The guy is in AA. Calm down everyone.

If we can get Dan Haren for Taylor, Carrasco and Kendrick. I will personally drive the guy to the airport. So much slurping over Taylor, enough already

[Bedrosian's Beard]

MVP: forgive us for getting excited about a stud prospect. Lets go back to praising Carpenter.

[Tony D]

tommy, I love how you tell everyone to calm down over Taylor, and then you try to trade him for one of the best pitchers in the NL.

Mix in a clue one time.

[sneed]

I think the Gil Meche idea fits the FO's MO if you will. As Montgomery said on Comcast SportsNet, (paraphrasing) "a big acquisition for us might not be seen the same way by the fans." Meche isn't Bedard or Peavy or Oswalt or Halladay, but he's consistent and locked down at a reasonable $12 million for the next two years. After a rough start, he's pitched very well for KC of late. If they could toss a veteran like Ron Mahay in, it would seemingly be a no brainer right now. Meche wouldn't take Drabek/Taylor/Brown who have clearly emerged as the cream of our farm system crop; rather, a close to ready, higher ceiling guy like Carlos Carrasco and a mix of other prospects to their choosing. Arbuckle knows the system quite well, so he probably already has a sense of what it would take to get that deal done. It's not just speculation on our part that they need to get a deal done soon, the past 6 games and mounting injuries are forcing them to get a deal done ASAP. Say what you want about Amaro, but his off season moves showed he's aggressive and understands the small window we have to win another championship. He locked a good core up through this year and next and has repeatedly stated that we have payroll flexibility in the current season.

Bottom line: The Meche scenario seems to be the most plausible one we've tossed around here yet; especially since Donald is out longer than Jed Lowrie and Dice-K can't seem to get anyone out. The Sox have several rotation question marks, and despite a pool of young arms to dive into, my money is on them sticking it out with veterans for a bit longer. Bucholz will get his turn, but his debut was unimpressive and he's a bit of a hot head. Pitching in Boston is no walk in the park.

Meche for Carrasco. It's time to make that move.

[MG]

I love to see Meche come here (never though I would say that 3-4 year ago) but a couple of things:

1. Why would the Royals trade a starter who has shown he is capable of giving them a quality 200+ IP and is locked up at a relatively reasonable figure for the next 2+ years?

2. Royals have desperately tried to prove to their doubting fan base that they are indeed serious about put a contending product on the field again. They boosted the payroll and made a few moves this offseason (Crisp, Jacobs) to prove that point. Attendance has notably risen as a result and the Royals are one of the few teams in MLB this year to have a notable increase in attendance. How would trading Meche help that or be seen by the Royals' fan base?

3. Meche is supposedly a low-key kind of guy who has only played in two low-key markets - Seattle and KC. Would he really waive his no-trade clause to come to fickle sports fan base like Philly?

4. It is going to take more than a Carrasco to get Meche. It would take at least at least 2 very good prospect (and probably 1 less one too). Means something like Drabek/Savery/Taylor or Brown? would go in a deal for Meche.

[MG]

mvp - I don't get you at times. Taylor is a potential Triple Crown threat this year at AA in a league that generally has been decent pitching and you just dismiss this outright? Yet you have a man crush on Mayberry and act like he is some kind of bonafide diamond in the rough star?

Mayberry likely can contribute (and I still don't understand how Bako is stealing a paycheck and a daily meal allowance right now on this roster) to this team at the MLB level if used properly and Taylor likely would take some real lumps if he was called up right now but you take such extreme viewpoints it is hard to take you seriously.

[EastFallowfield]

Yo, new thread