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Monday, June 29, 2009


Charlie, in general, gives his players more than enough time to fix themselves. He has done this for both Rollins and Lidge. I think both players need to look at themselves in the mirror and either man up or not.

If the insinuation is that Rollins is angry at Charlie, he needs to re-adjust that attitude because that won't fly here, given his pathetic season. You can't cry when you're numbers are so bad.

Brewers have around 12 hits, have hit into 4 DPs, including one involving Braden Looper tagging and trying to score on a shallow fly to right with Prince Fielder on deck, and have dropped a fairly routine infield pop up leading to two runs.

They're only up 3-2.

Rollins talked some yesterday:

“You can’t fight the powers. It isn’t like it’s something you can argue about,” Rollins said in his first public comments since his four-game hiatus began Thursday. “It’s something he wanted to do and something he felt like he needed to do.”

The whole article has more quotes...

This is what I wrote last night after the Chavez bunt:

"Healthy, my a**. That throw was awful. Lidge practically hopped into the air to avoid pushing off on that knee. Why the Phils continue to mess around playing him hurt is beyond me. This team either has the most ignorant or most negligent medical staff in MLB."

This continued pattern of lies by the Phillies & Lidge will -- not might, WILL -- come back to bite the entire team in the ass when he finally reaches the point of total physical collapse.

So far as J-Roll goes, I have been soundly ripped pretty much all season for claiming that he is a me-first player & a detriment to the team. Sadly, I continue to see & hear nothing, either in terms of Jimmy's play or the way he has dealt w/ his straggles & subsequent benching, that would lead me to believe I am wrong. I guess Rollins is only "team leader" material when he himself is playing well. Kind of an insult to guys who were/are actual team leaders, like Burrell & Moyer, don't ya think?

EFF: Thanks. Must have been a Sunday story I saw that, maybe?

Casey MacGehee makes up for his dropped popup by hitting a grand slam to make it 7-2 Milwaukee.

I used to think guys like Lidge are being selfish when they try to pitch through their injuries, but think sometimes it's more a case of trying to help out your fellow relievers.

Latest Zo Zone from Zolecki at has quote from Amaro saying they don't see Drabek as help in the bigs this season, unless circumstances change.

Citing the youth and surgery...

Mike Lowell's already having problems with his hip again. Hope Chase escapes that.

G-Town Dave sez: "Sadly, I continue to see & hear nothing, either in terms of Jimmy's play or the way he has dealt w/ his straggles & subsequent benching, that would lead me to believe I am wrong."

Well, I guess you see what you want to see. Rollins doesn't go to the papers -- the Philly papers which would invent or kill for anything controversial. He doesn't Twitter about wanting to play elsewhere. He cheers and fist-bumps teammates while he's on the bench.

Yeah he's been terrible offensively, but by all reports he has been watching extra video to try to figure out the problems.

Your characterization of him as hurting the team offensively is borne out.

Your characterization saying you have seen "nothing" to suggest he's not selfish is a bit less supportable.

I give Lidge some "credit" for trying to work through his injuries, but with his blown saves in his head, i'm surprised he wants to keep going-he has a real excuse to sit out a bit.

Time to play everyone's favorite game: Guess the random player the Phillies will acquire first. I'm thinking bullpen. I'm thinking Seattle. If you guessed Miguel Batista, you're correct.

Just to clarify, the Phillies haven't acquired him, but can't you just see it?

What about Takashi Saito? He's expendable and can pitch anywhere from the 7th inning to closer. Granted, it would just be a rental.

I was thinking Jarrod Washburn from Seattle.

If we're going bullpen, how bout Jon Rauch from the Dbacks? Just trying to think of teams who are definitively out of it who would be selling.

Anyone take a look at this possibly leaked, totally unconfirmed steroid list? ( in case the hotlink doesn't work).

How bout offering a package centered around Bastardo for Heath Bell? He's going to go way up in arbitration and I know the Padres are trying to get rid of salary. Towers loves finding stud relief pitchers, and I could see him liking Bastardo in that role.

I realize this is an old arguement, but it seems to me that Rollins has responded when batting 6th in the order, although it has only been for an incredibly short time. Maybe Cholly should keep him there longer and let him truly fix whats wrong before plugging him back into the top of the order. Maybe J-Roll will want it more!

Your characterization saying you have seen "nothing" to suggest he's not selfish is a bit less supportable."

I consider J-Roll's continued insistence on batting leadoff selfish, as is his open disagreement w/ Charlie's decision to (a) bench him & (b) wish that he use said time off to get away from worrying about hitting & clear his head for awhile.

(See the article EF links to above)

I'll agree with Dave in so much as Jimmy Rollins status as a "team leader" is very overstated. He's an excellent defensive shortstop and usually is productive at the plate and on the basepath. As for "leadership", it would be better classified as a combination of cheerleader / hot dog / good guy.

Thome was a team leader. Moyer is a team leader. References to Jimmy as a team leader are platitudes.

If our manager wasn't quite so stubborn, he might want to experiment with hitting Jimmy sixth or seventh for the rest of the season and reassessing his leadoff capabilities (or lack thereof) in spring training. We have a competent leadoff hitter in Victorino. There is no need for Charlie to continue trying to hammer a square peg into a round hole.

I don't buy that list...there are far too many big names on it and not enough lower fringe guys. We've seen enough evidence that just as many fringe guys as stars were juicing. The names would have been more equally distributed if that were a legit list. Its almost as if someone went down the rosters at that time period and picked the top names from each team to make a sensational list...and made sure to include all the guys already suspected of juicing.

“You can’t fight the powers. It isn’t like it’s something you can argue about,” Rollins said in his first public comments since his four-game hiatus began Thursday. “It’s something he wanted to do and something he felt like he needed to do.”

that's all about jimmy feeling victimized. it IS all about him.

Batista's an excellent guess because he meets the minimum age requirement (38 and up), he's terrible, he plays for the Mariners, and he's a name that has been linked to the Phillies more times than I can count.

Honestly, and I never thought I'd say this...perhaps Jimmy should be traded. The BoSox traded Garciaparra and it won them a WS...perhaps Jimmy could get us a top pitcher if we center a package around him.

i'm with NEPP. jimmy is over. prove me wrong jimmy. please.

People questioning Jimmy's attitude just wear on me. Was everyone complaining about his attitude in 2007? No, everyone on here was tooting his horn to be MVP because of his leadership qualities, explaining why he deserved it over Matt Holliday, who had better numbers.

The guy is a pro athlete, and a damn good one. So yeah, he has a lot of pride and not a little bit of ego either. It's what's made him a great player. If you wanna complain about his attitude, at least just admit you're completely speculating and don't really know what you are talking about.

As I see it, it's just pointless, because none of us are in the clubhouse and have any idea. Complain about him playing poorly, by all means. But the speculation about his attitude and intangibles is just stupid, in my opinion, especially because so much of his popularity only a year and half ago was based on people promoting those exact things.

I agree with NEPP. I'm not sure Rollins comes back from his "vacation" and goes on a tear. I'm just starting to think that he is in a serious decline and that needs to be taken care of. If he can get us a solid pitcher as is, I think it's worth it.

NEPP: Damn. Deja vu.

Seriously, how do you guys think a 5'7 kid becomes an MVP-level pro athlete? By having a chip on his shoulder and some ego. Deal with it.

These posts just prove JRoll right for his "frontrunner" comment. Haven't we seen enough bad opposition shortstops this season to know that Rollins brings a lot to the table even if his bat is silent?

Just to clarify, I would not trade Jimmy, but I wouldn't sign him to any extensions either.

I think a new role hitting behind Utley/Howard/Ibanez might suit him nicely. Providing that Amaro doesn't make a jackass stupid trade (Brown, Taylor), we should have plenty of pop in the lineup that we could endure a .250 Rollins bat at the bottom of the order for years to come.

I think right now, Jimmy has to be looked at with the same lens we see Pedro Feliz; an above average fielder with limited power potential. If he goes on a tear and becomes the Rollins of 2007, terrific, but at this point, I'd be happy if he could settle into a new role and hit for league average.

In either case, hot Jimmy or cold Jimmy, he isn't a team leader, but that doesn't mean he should go.


For what it's worth, I wasn't posting here in '07, so what "everyone" was saying then has no bearing on my opinion. Nor, for that matter, does Jimmy c. '07 have any bearing on how Jimmy has acted since he won said MVP. Also, we're speculating/debating J-Roll's attitude not just for sh*ts 'n' giggles, but because it is one of the two stated topics of this thread.

AFish: Seriously. The same people who were cheerleading him for MVP now want to trade him. And not just that, but they don't even just say it's because he's playing like crap. That would at least have some sort of justification. They cloak it in some BS about "attitude" and being selfish, of which they have no idea.


I don't know. In his worst year, 2002, Jimmy hit .245 with a .306 OBP. Of course he led off that year, and that killed the offense. It'll take a resurgence for him to even equal those numbers.

I wouldn't get rid of him; I have loyalty to the guys who won us the WFC. But there's no way he should be batting leadoff.

Afish: the attendance at CPB since it opened make Jimmy's "frontrunner" comment the single most jackass stupid thing any Philadelphia athlete has ever uttered. Ever.

Philly fans are demanding. They can be boorish, vile and just plain angry, but they show up to boo.

Comments such as those illustrate one of the reasons why Jimmy is not, and never was, a "team leader."

but I still don't want to see him in another uniform; just another spot in the lineup...permanently.

Rollins "frontrunner" point was that fans cheer when a player is doing well, but turn on the player when he struggles. Seems correct to me.

"But I still don't want to see him in another uniform; just another spot in the lineup ... permanently."

I agree, Mac. The time may well be coming where Jimmy needs to go elsewhere, but I respect what he has accomplished in his time as a Phillie, & don't wish to see that time end just yet. Even so, he should be dropped in the order, once & for all.

FWIW, I'm not disagreeing that Rollins should be dropped in the order. I think he should as well. I just think all the crap about his attitude and lack of leadership is ridiculous. And I also thought it was ridiculously exaggerated in 2007 too.

Unless its a Milton Bradley or Elijah Dukes situation, I feel like we should just focus on the on-field stuff, since we have no idea what the off-field stuff really is, and if it even matters.

Four NY relievers combined to give up 7 runs, as the Mets lose & drop to 1 game below .500 (37-38). The Phils now lead the NL East by 3 games.

AFish: If that's true, then he misused the term. Phillies fans have ALWAYS cheered success & booed failure. Nevertheless, they have continued to support their team (unlike, say, the "fans" in Tampa or Miami).

what if games saved with his golden glove are cancelled out by games he loses with his silent bat? i agree the chip and the ego helped him at one time.

and i assure you that i am no frontrunner. i've been a phillies fan since the days of stan lopata and willie jones. i watch every game. god, i hate mondays. lol

Lidge looked considerably better with his fastball and control yesterday. yes he looked awkward fielding the bunt but fielding has always been an issue for Lidge off the mound. It was a smart play by the catcher for the Blue Jays to make him field a ball. I don't know if he is hurt or not but I didn't notice anything out of the ordinary and he looked fine running at McDonald during the rundown and turning quickly on it to get out of the way.

The Rollins stuff is silly. He has not complained about the benching. He doesn't make comments in public about it, and yesterday he was audibly heard on TV congratulating Bruntlett after busting up the double play at second. Rollins knows he is struggling and is taking the benching in stride.

Truth: Don't know that being a good teammate is really the issue with Rollins. I don't think there's a question there. The issue is why would a player less than two years removed from MVP need to be benched six times, twice for discipline?

That steroid list is bogus. I mean, there were only top flight names listed. The reality is that most of the people who were doping were bottom shelf talent. Plus, wasn't it a random sample for testing? So there should have been like, 60% of the league that were never tested? Details hazy. Go figure.

Well, since apparently I'm being Devil's Advocate and defending Rollins here, the four times this weekend were performance-related, and there's no argument his performance has been really bad this year. That's not in question. The two games for discipline can clearly be seen as isolated incidents, both of which Jimmy admitted fault to and took his punishment without complaint.

So do I see a pattern here? No.

Jack: I don't think you're playing Devil's Advocate necessarily. I sense the majority of people feel exactly as you do about the situation.

But for me, that fourth day seemed excessive, and I wondered if there was more to it.

The J-Roll situation is one where I think a "show" caliber stat guy might provide the Phils with an edge (admittedlly not much, but something) in evaluating this situation.

Would love to see someone factor in all the stats including age, hitting, power, fielding, speed, SB, previous injury history, etc. Then compare it to other comparable caliber/age shortstops. This might provide some insight as to whether what we're seeing is more likely to be the start of a downward career slope or whether the probability is greater that this is simply an off year that he can be expected to bounce back from.

At this stage, as Jack said here (and I think he has made a similar point in seasons past), we are not in the clubhouse and really have no way of knowing whether the other players regard him as a high maintenance prima donna or a leader.

I gather from articles at the time and since then, and from several books, that No-mah was regarded as a drag on the Red Sox by a number of other players on the team. Chase or Moyer may be more my "style" of leader based on their reputations, but professional athletes march to their own tune. We have no real idea what the other Phils are thinking other than speculation at this point.

And this is not like deciding whether Bruntlett should go or stay or which utility guy might be better. Dealing someone of J-Roll's stature can change the tone and success of your club for years. We better get it right.

JW: I was responding more to what G-Town Dave wrote. However, I don't think there is anything real underlying in Rollins being benched. He was benched once last year because he didn't run out a fly ball. Afterwards he agreed with the benching. Then he was benched for being late to a game. It seems like a common thing for him and he didn't like it. The phillies were in a slide at that time and I think Charlie was going after one of the locker room leaders (not a bad strategy).

The most recent benching was related to his offensive problems and a defensive gaffe on Wednesday. That one looked like his struggles at the plate had seeped over to his defense. You have to sit a guy at that point to clear his head. People on here have been clamoring for Rollins to be dropped in the order or benched for weeks now. It finally happens, and it's a real benching- not just 7 innings of a game- and we are looking for ulterior motives.

As I'm usually the Rollins antagonist here, I'll point out that Jimmy only took responsibility for one of his two benchings in '08 -- he openly disagreed w/ Charlie's decision to bench him following his late appearance to a game in NY.

Furthermore, when J-Roll was benched most recently, Charlie stated that it would be for two games ... which magically became four, much to everyone's surprise. I am speculating (yes, speculating) that the additional two games were tacked on as a result of Jimmy refusing to get away from the game mentally for a couple of days, as Charlie wanted, & continuing to take his swings, watch video, etc. In short, Rollins' refusal to take heed of the manager's directives, which is both selfish & (in light of his continuing failure to hit) self-destructive.

G-town Dave's posts are often bizarre and wrongheaded, but his thing with Rollins is beyond rational comprehension.

Because Rollins wants to be in the lineup every day he's a "me-first player and a detriment to the team"????

I guess Dave thinks Rollins wants to be in a slump.

Don't know if it's been commented on yet or not, but apparently, Ibanez likely won't be ready to come off the DL when his 15 days are up per CSN tonight. Ciccotti is going to take a look at him this week and see if he is ready for rehab and then we'll hear after that.

BTW, I hate those CSN Alerts. I always think there's a horrible trade in the works or someone's dead. Either way, I prepare myself for the worst whenever I see the graphics.

If I understand the thinking of Beerleaguer posters correctly it goes like this: Whenever Lidge does poorly it's because of his knee injury, regardless of what he himself says. It couldn't possibly be that he's reverted to his 2006 and 2007 form, because 2008 is the real Lidge and if he's not pitching to that level it hs to be because of the knee (even though he had a knee injury last year too).


That really blows RE: Ibañez. I had hoped he'd be back by the time the Mets rolled into town. And I feel the same way you do about those "CSN Alerts", doubleh.

OT, but Cooperstown was great. It was my first ever visit there and there was so much to see. I tried to see as much of it as I could with a 3 year-old in tow (who wasn't all that interested in the place). Also, the town seemed to be 33% Phillies fans because of the special Phillies weekend thing they had going on at the HOF.

I took some pictures, so if you want any of the sweet Phils WS display, Jason--or anyone else--let me know.

I quite literally ran into Michael Barkann and his family when he was coming out of a restaurant.

It's almost as if I never left Philly...

BTW, Phils LF have hit a combined .237 since Raaaaaaaaúúúúúúúúúúúúllllllll has been gone. :-S

===> New Thread

clout: Well, it is the focus of Jason's article. It'd seem odd if Beerleaguer posters didn't discuss it. It's standard practice; like your trite use of "interesting" as a part of the gimmick character that you've built.

JW, if I'm Charlie, I might also consider keeping Jimmy down after an explosion of offense and ride it out so to speak. Actually, that's exactly what I'd do. The other "benefit" might be that it would make Jimmy all the more eager to get back into the "swing of things."

You'll have to pardon that pun...but it fits so nicely.

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