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Saturday, May 23, 2009


With pitching..we will dominate. Look at the game last night as an example.

so who's our dh, Mayberry or Ibanez?

Yes, but we must remember, all those ML parks are bandboxes.

Let them all be bandboxes at least that will stop pitcvhers from ragging about CBP and maybve get them to sign.

All hail Beerleaguer the omniscient.

Ibanez will DH. Get the young legs out in teh OF.

I guess the 'will RBIanez get 100RBI' debate is moot now that he seems to be entrenched at no. 3 in hte order.

"In the prior thread benson says Madson/Lidge is better than Trancoso/Broxton.


Clout can't be bothered to explain his position on what is in fact a debatable issue* and instead resorts to a catty rhetorical?

Intere....wait, no, I mean, utterly banal.

Also, claim that Beerleaguers "worshipped" Gillik in order to score points against--someone? Check.

*Although perhaps not: Tronocoso's only thrown 65 innings in his career; not a lot of ground for comparison.


sitting raul to dh for a rookie to start at his position would be wrong imo. he hasnt done anything to merit that, his defense has been sharp, and we dont even know how mayberry will perform. id be worried with screwing with rauls hot hand by telling him to sit(dh) so a 'better defender' who never played at this level yet can play.
you dont mess with a streak, leave raul be and hope mayberry can get a few good looks and swings.

Pretty wild to see what Ruiz has done recently. Only a few weeks ago I thought he had no bat. I mean, he still has very little power, but he's now hitting .271/.394/.407 for the season after hitting .393/.514/.643 in the last 9 games.

Klaus: OK, let's debate. Tell me why Madson/Lidge is better than Troncoso/Broxton. And, if you think 65 IP is too small a sample size, I'd be curious to know just how big a sample size you think is meaningful?

I would love to know what Clout has ever done in his life to warrant such arrogant behavior.

Playing Mayberry jr in LF is the smart thing to do.
You can't pinch hit for your DH. The Yankees have a million RH relievers and one Lefty. You play Mayberry in LF then when they go to the Bullpen you got Stairs and Dobbs ready. Additionally, Ibanez has started every game. You can't take his bat out of the lineup. This is the best way to get him some rest.

redbeard: Mayberry is a very good defensive outfielder. Ibanez is not. I don't think being DH will affect Ibanez.

Spout: Um, not use multiple screen names?

redbeard - Normally I would disagree because Mayberry certainly has more range and is a better defender but at this point you don't mess with Ibaenz's mojo at the plate for any reason.

Actually, I have never posted before.
The disgust of watching you condemn poster after poster for their OPINIONS has driven me to make my first post.

FYI - You are not God. And even if you were, God judges no man until his last day. Keep the slanderous comments to yourself or figure out a more intelligent way to get your point across!! Anyone can criticize. Read a little about some of the smartest men to ever walk this Earth.. See if they EVER condemn people (Ben Franklin, Abe Lincoln)

And I still would love to know your finest achievement.

Clout - Normally I would agree but Ibanez is looked in right now at the plate and it can affect a hitting if he suddenly DHes. Perfect example of this was Burrell who could be hitting well coming into Interleague play and doing nothing for a weekend series where he was the DH.

If there were a justifiable fawning obsess-o-meter (From 0-10) for ESPN, Lebron James would be an 11 (breaking the meter) and the Yankees wouldn't register.

It is the difference between actual greatness (worthy of obsessive replay) and faux greatness (not so much).

Clout: You praise the Rube, but subtly criticize Pat Gillick. In the past you have consistently been a "results are all that matters" guy. What gives? Gillick was the GM of the Phils when they won the WS (and exactly when he said that they would be competitive). Hard to argue with those results, regardless of what you think of the means to the end (I certainly don't question them).

You can't pinch hit for a DH? Why not?

Spout - Drink a beer and calm down man and enjoy the weekend.

clout: Other than Ibanez, which Amaro moves have worked out this year? Resigning Moyer (to a 2-year deal, no less)? Resigning Bruntlett? Signing Chan Ho Park and guaranteeing him a chance to compete for the starting job? Giving the last bench spot to Miguel Cairo?

At least on paper, Amaro does appear to have gotten the better end of the Mayberry-Golson swap, and he certainly got the better end of the Taschner-Jaramillo swap. But you can't evaluate a GM just by lining up a list of his trades and seeing how many times he came out on the better end. 20 Jack Taschner type trades do not make up for having a 46-year old starting pitcher in your rotation, with a 7+ ERA.

When I said that Madson/Lidge is debatably the best 8/9 combo in the league, I was taking last year's WFC run into account. I was also thinking of when Lidge is healthy.

Lidge's slider and Madson's changeup are devastating when they are on and can make those two literally unhittable. Their track record shows this.

As far as stats this year, Troncoso/Broxton look good so far, but it is a stretch to say that their "stuff" matches up with Madson and Lidge. Madson's changeup and Lidge's slider are two special pitches you don't see many other places around the league.

EF: If you pinch hit for a DH, you lose the DH for the rest of the game. Dumb rule, but the rule nonetheless.

If by "better" you mean, better this year, the award goes to Troncoso/Broxton, obviously. If you mean better as in, who's better, no I don't think we have a basis for legitimate comparison. Lidge vs. Broxton perhaps, although even here...

Troncoso has a 1.63 ERA and WHIP of 1.01 in 27 2/3 innings. Madson has put up similar numbers over similar time spans, more than once.

You can certainly pinch hit for the DH. However, there is a rule that the DH must come to bat at least once, unless the opposing team changes pitchers. I would start Mayberry in left the next two games to give Ibanez a mini-rest.

Meaningful sample size, to my mind: at least a year +.

"he certainly got the better of the Jaramillo-Taschner trad".
Hows that? Taschners been mediocre at best and they're paying him close to a 1 million $ to do what Escalona or Bastardo could do for the league minimum.

that is, in knowing who is better, as in essentially better. That's the basic standard, after all, by which we know that Burrell is a better hitter than Ibanez, right?

I don't think that's right. You simply switch your DH. You cannot put a DH into the field without losing the DH, a whole different thing.

Are we National League fans or what?

Torre should definitely be known as "Destroyer of Bullpen Arms." Broxton isn't on a crazy pace yet (72 G, 79 IP) but Troncoso is (64 G, 102 IP).

It is amazing (maybe criminal) how Torre every year runs his best setup guy and usually one other arm into the ground by Sept. My bet is that it will be no different with Troncoso this season who will either get hurt or be ineffective come Sept. It might actually do the Dodgers come good if he only did come down with a minor injury so that he could come avoid Torre's abuse/come back fresh.

Went to the Sox-Pirates game last night and saw Jaramillo and Gavin Floyd. Floyd was sawing off some AAAA Pirate bats and looked fairly sharp (took a no-hitter into the middle innings), but those are two mediocre lineups.

I got it now. Ibanez is hitting better than Burrell because Burrell's mojo is thrown off by being a DH.

I am starting to come along with the guys who said Burrell was a better hitter than Ibanez despite Burrell batting .200 for the last 4 months of the season and getting 1 hit in the WS.

mike - Agreed for the most part. Paulino has come back to earth in a big way for the Fish but Jamarillo has put up respectable numbers for the Bucs. Still, by trading both of those guys the Phils have been forced to go through their seemingly never-ending pursuit of acquiring fringe journeyman catcher (see Bako, Paul) for more depth as it appears that Marson isn't ready at all to play at the MLB-level.

Trashner has been slightly better than people him credit for it he definitely has real control issues just about every time out so far. He just hasn't gotten burnt by it yet for the most part. Regardless, he will be back in the minors in 2 weeks unless a team claims him when Romero comes back.

Clout: So you're saying that a 47 year old man in decline, pitching at an age in which no prior non-knuckleball thrower, can still play for a championship team?


ps: I think a young pitcher would benefit from playing for a championship club that puts up the type of offense that Philadelphia does. Does their status as defending WFC make a callup a more daunting challenge than Happ in 2008 or Kendrick in 2007?

mikes77: Taschner has been mediocre and Jason Jaramillo is a fringe major league player, who has virtually no use at all. Mediocre major league reliever > fringe major leaguer who has virtually no use at all.

And how do you know that Bastardo or Escalona could have done what Taschner has done? You have no idea, and neither did the Phillies at the time they traded for Taschner.

Mike - You are being you typical ridiculous self. Just making a point that some players hate to DH and their numbers reflect it. Burrell's certainly did as he had some pretty poor career numbers as a DH in a Phils' uniform.

Spout: You knew the answer to that question before you even asked it. He's accomplished very little. People with happy, productive lives, families and friends do not feel the need to log onto the internet to belittle others to make themselves feel better.

I truly pity the man, which is why I don't call him out for his arrogance anymore. If this is all he has in life, who am I to rob him of it?

BAP - Look at it from this point though. If the Phils designate Trashner for assignment in 2 weeks (which is very likely unless someone gets hurt in the interim), I bet he gets claimed by somebody.

So basically the Phils gave up Jamarillo, Paulino, and Trashner and have nothing to show for it. Yeah all minor guys but not very astute maneuvering either.

mike77 - define mediocre as it pertains to Taschner, a guy brought in to be the last arm in the pen. As for Bastardo and Escalona, they're minor league arms who have not shown they can do what Taschner is doing at the major league level. Keep in mind Bastardo and Escalona are putting up their numbers while repeating AA. As for Rube, you've got to evaluate him not just on his FA moves but also the arbitration cases he settled with ridiculous speed.

MG: You know, I'm not one to cite sample sizes too often, but I've got to believe that prior to 2009, Burrell hasn't had a whole lot of AB as a DH.

Frankly, I don't know or care if Pat enjoys the DH role. He's a Devil Ray. I'm not a Rays fan. However, to cite his poor performance in interleague games as DH (assuming you're correct) as proof positive that he's destined to fail in the role is pretty silly.

Mike: You were right on Ibanez, at least so far. But please don't mischaracterize the arguments made by those who thought Burrell should have been retained. Nobody I recall said Burrell was better than Ibanez. We -- or at least I -- took issue with your denigration of OBP, your flippant willingness to ignore the LH-RH issue (which could still matter if anything happens to Werth), and your frequent assertions of opinion as fact.

Amaro deserves credit, at least so far, for his willingness to go outside the box on Ibanez. I advocated retaining Burrell because I saw no better RH bat available. Amaro was willing to roll the dice on a third LH power bat. YMMV, but I remember the month-by-month breakdown on Ibanez' 2008. There were some cold months in there, with numbers that were positively Burrellian. That's hard to imagine looking at his swing right now.

Alby: So, the worst case scenario is that Ibanez has a cold month in which he performs at the level of the man he replaced while the best case scenario is that he continues to feast on NL pitching?

I think I can live with that.

It's nearly June and the LH-RH issue seems to be a non-issue. Apparently, Ibanez performance against LHP in 2008 may not have been a fluke after all?

Bruntlett HR'd in game 2 of the 2008 WS as a pinch hitter for DH Greg Dobbs...

It amazes me how little people here seem to understand the DH rules and then want to offer up ideas for what Cholly should do based on their own misinterpretation of the rules.

You absolutely can PH for the DH. For instance, if Mayberry were to DH to start the game and then the Yanks go to RH reliever, the Phils could then replace Mayberry with Stairs or Dobbs as DH.

You "lose" the DH (forcing the pitcher to hit) if you end up putting the DH in the field. Some people are scared to death of this unlikely scenario but all that really means is from that point forward you manage the game like an NL game.

IOP: "In the past you have consistently been a "results are all that matters" guy. What gives?"

Still am. What were the results of the Freddy Garcia trade?

While some here say the WFC means no mistakes were made, I say bullchit. Each move should be judged on its merits.

Alby: Don't be so scarce. You're one of five posters on here worth reading.

It amazes me how little people here seem to understand the DH rules and then want to offer up ideas for what Cholly should do based on their own misinterpretation of the rules.

You absolutely can PH for the DH. For instance, if Mayberry were to DH to start the game and then the Yanks go to RH reliever, the Phils could then replace Mayberry with Stairs or Dobbs as DH.

You "lose" the DH (forcing the pitcher to hit) if you end up putting the DH in the field. Some people are scared to death of this unlikely scenario but all that really means is from that point forward you manage the game like an NL game.

BAP: Moyer could be a mistake. Too early to tell, no?

spout: LOL. I'm not God, but how do you know He doesn't post here?

Mac: It's funny that you should be the one proposing all these radical moves because, back in spring training, you were arguing: "How can any of us no-nothings dare question the GM of the WFC?" Adding a further layer of irony is the fact that you were making this argument during a debate about Miguel Cairo, who you thought would be "just fine" as the right-handed bat off the bench.

At least MVPTommy is consistent in his ridiculousness.

Wait . . . I know you can't move a DH to a defensive position. That's the whole reason why Cholly doesn't want to use Coste at DH. I thought you also could not pinch hit for him. Perhaps my understanding was wrong. Just don't expect me to admit to any error. As an ordained member of the Beerleaguer Elite, I took an oath to never admit I was wrong.

DH rules actually show why it makes sense to DH Mayberry. It's quite likely that Stairs will pinch hit for Mayberry for some time today. If Mayberry is in LF, you are then left with the choice of leaving Stairs in LF or putting Bruntlett in the game. The Phillies are better of DHing Mayberry unless Raul could really use the break from playing the outfield.

Clout- Moyer too early to tell? Does the ERA have to go to double digits? How many games do they have to lose to prove the obvious? What does it take to get this guy out of the rotation? Of course, we can save him to pitch against the Marlins. What if the Marlins light him up? Will that be the last straw? Amaro better get busy fast.

BAP: You absolutely can pinch hit for a DH.

Also, this thing that Coste can't possibly DH was proven false when he DH'd against Kazmir in the World Series. It's true that if Chooch got hurt and Coste had to go catch, then we'd lose the DH. But that isn't the monumental catastrophe that people would lead you to believe it is. The pitcher has to hit but of course you can always pinch hit for him like you could in an NL game.

BAP: There's an ordination ceremony for the BL elite? I thought JW would just have to tear up your membership card, but maybe it's more complex than that.

SS Rollins, 2B Utley, LF Werth, 1B Howard, DH Ibanez, CF Victorino, 3B Feliz, RF Mayberry, C Coste

As per a Lauber tweet. Werth in left, interesting.

Clout, why don't you are your five friends worth reading go log on to facebook or something and have your own limited discussions. That way, you wouldn't have to scour through the rest of the mindless drivel on this site. You would not be missed by 90% of the readers on this site.

But if you left, the rest of us would not be able to bask in your brilliance. Too bad.

Jason said the other day that his traffic pales in comparison to Metsblog. Maybe thats because insecure folks like you scare people away with your condescension and belittlement.

In my opinion, you seem to suffer from little guy's syndrome. So are you 5'2", or 3"???

By the way, according to your logic, that was not a personal attack, just a hypothetical rendering of my opinion.

Ha, I posted the lineups so we could, you know, talk about those. Rather than Internet fight for no reason.

If this keeps up, next time someone from Metsblog wanders over here and makes fun of Beerleaguer, I might agree with them.

BAP: I don't recall saying anything about "questioning the wisdom of the GM". In fact, I was a pretty vocal opponent of re-signing Moyer at all (let alone to two years). If you'd care to search the archives, I'd be interested in the post you're referencing.

I thought that Cairo would be "just fine." I was wrong, just as many of you were wrong about Ibanez > Burrell, Ibanez being a fine defensive LF, etc... Same sample size as Cairo, no?

To clarify, it was I who said that Ibanez is a fine defensive LF, that he would very likely hit 25+ HR with 90 - 100 RBI and that the LH trifecta was a minor issue that was blown up on BL.

I seem to remember getting mocked repetitively by the elite who insisted that Ibanez was a Lonnie Smith level defensive liability, how Pat was bad in the field, but Ibanez was worse, etc... Can't seem to remember a time where the need arose to take him out for a defensive replacement thus far...

Funny how selective memory works, isn't it?

Why should we assume that the Phils will likely pinch hit for Mayberry today? Look at his splits so far this season at LHV.

If the argument is that a RH-heavy Yankees bullpen will overmatch him, then why is his OPS higher against RHs and all 8 of his homeruns against RHs?

Anon: He said he looked like Bill Conlin before. (or someone acting like Clout did) so in that case he wouldn't be very small. Well maybe short, but not around.

Interesting lineup King. Sitting Ruiz after a 3 hit game and has been hitting well. Also Werth in the 3 hole, I imagine because of the LHP.

Maybe Charlie feels Howard will get more pitches to hit with Ibanez behind him the way Ibby has been hitting>?

As far as mayberry in right, maybe Charlie thinks he can leap up and grab those cheap home runs out there? hahah

Wow, someone must've watered the comments section, the annual "clout's a meanie!" flowers are blooming.... Some folks need to find a virtual Mr. Miyagi and learn some mental toughness and some virtual wax on, wax off. clout is right more than he's wrong and aside from his occasional tautological responses, he brings a lot to the table particularly on prospects, etc.

MPN: I'm sure he does offer the occasional useful nugget of information, but it gets lost in the shuffle when 75% of his posts are some paraphrase of "you're an idiot, and I'm smarter than you".

As far as "mental toughness", after my brief J-Roll experiment on BL, I think I demonstrated that it's in short supply around here among all parties.

Having Ibanez DH is hardly an insult to him. The guy DH'ed 9 times in 2008 and 11 times in 2007. Its called giving him a break. He's a professional enough to not take a perceived slight towards his defense. He's 37, not 23...I'm sure he's a bit beyond that kind of crap now.

Let's hope Mayberry wins the righty off the bench job so we can put an end to this issue.

Good 1st inning from Happ. Maybe this guy can be a solid 4-5 starter for a few years.

Ibanez!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! How many people don't like the signing now?

I wonder what the asking price on Bedard is?

Yo, new thread!

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