Postgame: Phils run down Dodgers, leg out 5-3 win

Four Jayson Werth stolen bases, including a steal of home, highlighted a night when the Phillies welcomed winning baseball back to Citizens Bank Park. Chan Ho Park notched his first win in another encouraging outing.

The Phillies took advantage of some Clayton Kershaw wildness and pieced together a big inning in the 4th, which started when Werth stole third and Jimmy Rollins pushed him home on a nice opposite field stab. Raul Ibanez would deliver the fatal blow in the next at bat with a two-run double to the gap in left-center. But the night's highlight occurred on an insurance run, when Werth stole second, third on a double steal and home on a perfectly timed dash during Russell Martin's throw back to the mound. Werth beat the throw home easily. On the mound, Park made another strong case to stay in the rotation with his second quality start in as many tries, allowing two runs on seven hits, with no walks and three strikeouts. Brad Lidge picked up his fifth save of the season, but made it another adventure, allowing a run on a Mark Loretta RBI.

Beerleaguer: A year ago, he was stuck in the lesser half of a platoon with a player who is currently out of baseball. Today, Werth is playing like a 30-30 star. He's been steady against righties and lefties, he's hitting with power, his glove and arm have been outstanding, and after tonight, he'll break into the league's top 10 in steals. He's terrific.

Comments

[king myno]

Lidge is gonna give me a heart attack, but I don't think swapping him and Madson would solve anything. If he can't get the outs in a save or a non-save situation, I don't see how pitching the 8th or 9th would matter.

[Phlipper]

What's amazing is that as bad as he's pitched, he's only blown one save.

[RSB]

Dodgers now 1-4 without Ramirez. It had to deflate their morale to an extent, but moreover it exposes their lineup as pretty punchless - or at least powerless. Three of their starting eight don't have a single homer. They sure don't have the look of a team with the best record in baseball.

[J. Weitzel]

Failed to mention Rollins had some good ABs tonight and some hard-hit balls.

[G-Town Dave]

I suppose the Phillies could always trade Lidge to someone else for a handful of magic beans, à la Ed Wade. After all, it'll be fun to watch Brad right himself again & tear it up for another team!

[Lenny's Ghost]

Lidge is scaring the crap out of me. Now I know how it feels to be a Mut.

Werth. Wow. Awesome. Love him.

[J. Weitzel]

The drumbeat to get Happ into the rotation goes silent for at least one more day.

[RSB]

JW: I missed the earlier discussion, but to me it's hard to figure why you put a guy who's not driving the ball in the 5 hole. I'd rather see Rollins down at 7 if he's not going to be 1 or 2. 5 makes no sense to me.

[Goody]

My ranking of the oddities tonite:
1. Werth steals 4 bases
2. Feliz walks 4 times
3. Werth steals home
4. Howard steals
5. 8 runs at CBP w/o a HR
6. Cholly does nothing wrong

[MG]

Glad to see the Phils finally getting the running game going tonight especially against one of the worst defense catchers in the NL. Running early and often on Martin this series.

[MG]

Finally saw the highlights of the game and stealing home is arguably one of my favorite plays in the game. Right up their with the suicide squeeze.

[Jack]

Feliz walked 4 times? I miss watching one game, and I don't even get to see that?

Werth is the most underrated player in baseball. If I told you I had a guy who was hitting .290/.400/.550 with 20-20 numbers last year and 30-30 potential, and plus defense in right field, and was signed for 3 million dollars this year? One of the most valuable players in the league, you'd have to think. Yet he gets no pub nationally, and some still consider him a platoon guy.

[Sophist]

Jack - Last year was his first of more than 130 games (134). Prior to that he played 89, 102, and 94. He needs another near full season at this rate for some pub, I'd think.

[Meyer]

I believe having Bowa in the opposing dugout brings out the best of Lopes.

[IOP]

Werth more than proved himself to me last season. I never understood why people have been down or iffy about him. He played a "major" role in the Phils winning the WS last year and has proven to be one of the most baseball savvy guys that the Phillies have had in quite some time.

The guy was born to play baseball, literally. Look at his family history. His G-father was Dick Schofield and I think his uncle also played pro ball (I may have the two mixed up, but either way the point stands). To top it off, I think his mother was a professional softball player. Talk about pedigree.

[IOP]

Oh, and I'm thrilled with Direct TV, because I couldn't watch the Phils and instead had to watch the Braves v. Mets horrific catastrophe in HD.

Next thing you know, I'll be seeing a Joe Buck rent-a-car commercial. Is that in HD? What is the world coming to?

Makes me miss Harry K. even more.

[Iceman]

I forget who I saw in the last thread say that the Phils should consider demoting Lidge and making Madson the closer, but I'm laughing to hard to hit the 'previous thread' button. Nothing like hitting the panic button after one blown save following a perfect season. Call me when he starts costing the team multiple games in the standings.

[Goody]

Meyer: If you're old enough to remember, Bowa in blue and Lopes in red still seems strange to me.

[bathtubhippo]

only 1 quibble with the game management today--i would have liked to see stairs PH for carlos with the bases loaded in the 7th v a RHP, thought stairs could have really put the game out of reach...but all in all, a quality game. first time i was in attendance for a win this year, and a chan ho park game at that!

[Goody]

hippo: Most likely, Cholly kept Ruiz in to block Lidge's sliders.

[J.R. King]

Another rarity: Jayson Werth GIDP

[Goody]

I hope we see 3 RH at Yankee Stadium next weekend. Matt Stairs as DH should be exciting.

[J.R. King]

For the series against the Yanks, the Phils are scheduled to face Pettitte and Sabathia Saturday and Sunday. I'd bring up Mayberry for the weekend, have him play left and have Ibanez DH. It'd be quite a defensive outfield.

I'll be at the game Saturday. If Eric Bruntlett DH's, I'll be the one vomiting in the stands.

[Goody]

J.R. King: Best laugh of the day. Myers is probably the best bet against CC.

[Goody]

King: What's the game time for that sat.? My schedule says TBA.

[strange]

IOP:

Werth's mother was actually an Olympic track-and-field contender. I think sprints and long jump, but I don't think she ever medaled.

And I think he is the third person in his family to play on a World Series winning baseball team.

[bay_area_phan]

Iceman: His ERA is 8.53 and he has been the single worst player on the entire team -- which is no small feat on a team with Rollins, Ruiz, Blanton and Moyer. The reason he has blown only 1 save is because he has only had a few opportunities (6), and all but one of those opportunities came with a 2 run lead or more. You could make Jack Taschner the closer and he would still save 5 out 6 games in which he enters with a 2 or 3-run lead. If Lidge gets bombed a few more times, I would definitely try flip-flopping him and Madson. For reasons I don't profess to understand, Lidge has an erratic history when it comes to the closer's role, but has excelled whenever he has been put in a setup role.

[bay_area_phan]

On Lidge . . . yeah the hit to Loretta was obviously pretty cheap, but that misses the point. He also allowed 2 hits before the one to Loretta, and those were not cheap. When you're constantly pitching out of trouble, you're going to allow runs -- whether by cheap hits or not-so-cheap ones.

Frankly, I don't buy the conventional wisdom that this is all mental. Lidge just doesn't look right to me. He doesn't seem to be using his slider that much and, when he uses it, it looks nothing like the slider that was making so many batters look foolish last year. I still think he's going to land on the DL at some point in the very near future.

[bay_area_phan]

Just saw that the Twins DFA'd Juan Rincon. Strange case. He was one of the best setup men in baseball from 2003 to 2006. He lost it overnight in 2007 and has been absolutely wretched ever since. Yet he's still only 30 years old.

Rincon was also one of the first major leaguers to test positive for steroids. But that was back in early 2005, so if drug testing was the reason for his decline, you would think the decline would have started earlier. Might be a worthwhile reclamation project for someone.

[J.R. King]

Goody: Gametime Saturday is at 4:10 pm. -J.R.

[J.R. King]

b_a_p: I agree that Lidge looks off. I don't know anything about pitching mechanics, but he looks very uncomfortable on the mound. I'd bet money he goes on the DL before the all-star break.

[Verdeforce]

I haven't posted yet this year because a) I have a two year-old and b) I'm still basking in the great victory of last year's world championship! But tonight inspired me for two reasons, it was the first time I saw Phillies broadcast coverage without Harry - the DirecTV package has only shown opposing team broadcasters since HK's passing for some reason - but, that's almost ok, because it's just not the same without him and second, Charlie Manuel finally adjusted our lineup. On that topic - some of us have been calling for this for almost 3 years, and by golly, we were right, it worked! Now he just needs to stay with it for a little while!

Victorino is the closest thing this team has to a true leadoff hitter. Utley might be the purest two-hole hitter in the game today and everyone knows Utley and Howard should have been split up in the lineup a long time ago. If Rollins gets his groove back consistently, he fits better at the 3 with Werth at the 5, but either way, the top six (make that 7 if Feliz can keep his production up) are best utilized this way, making the best offense in the NL, almost invincible.

[phxphilly]

Glad someone else noticed the Feliz 0 for 0 with 4 BB's. (That has to be a record for him, right) 1.000 OBP!

[Iceman]

BAP- the DL move is fine, but just inserting Madson as the closer and leaving Lidge to be the...setup man? Middle relief? That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard.

[TK]

BAP

I agree 100%. Lidge is not good this year. No debating it. Let's try Madson. You play to win the games. Brad Lidge in 2009 is a shell of his 2008 self. Madson is a better pitcher right now. Have him close.

[TNA]

With the "new" strike zone, which appeared to be in effect last night, the two Izies (Feliz and Ruiz) should be more defensive in their approaches at the plate, and drive up their walk rate. Ruiz did exactly that in the 3rd inning, but did the opposite with ducks full on the pond in the late stages of the game.

With this new strike zone, the Pit/IP rate should climb. However, it hasn't risen significantly yet.

All pitchers 08: 16.45 Pit/IP
All pitchers 09: 16.73 Pit/IP

Starting pitchers 08: 16.21 Pit/IP
Starting pitchers 09: 16.37 Pit/IP

[shake-n-bake '77]

Sadly, Lidge might have to take one of those Brett Myers voluntary assignments to Lehigh Valley. I really don't see him turning things around in pressure situations. He looks like a guy who really has no feel whatsoever for the release point on his FB. I'm even wondering if it really is mechanical. He had a lot of lucky saves last year down the stretch and seemed to pitch progressively worse as the year went on (lot of 32-pitch wiggle outs) He just may have used all his bullets and it might take until the All Star break to get him recharged, if it occurs at all in 09.

[IOP]

BAP: Lidge was great for several years (He was nearly unhittable), then he has two average seasons (it is worthy of note that one of those "average seasons" looks more average because of the ERA skewing of relief pitchers. He actually pitched brilliantly in the second half of one of those seasons).

Lidge then comes to the Phillies after that great second half and doesn't blow a save for the season. To say that he has "an erratic history as a closer....., but has excelled in the setup role" ignores most of his career statistics and his performance last season, where he was far from erratic.

It is quite clear to me that Lidge is having problems with his knee. He either is having problems planting or he is holding back subconsciously from doing so, and it is screwing with his mechanics. A stint on the DL, fine, but to just throw him in the setup role when he is clearly not right, just to let him play hurt in a less "crucial" role seems outrageous.

[IOP]

BAP: Your assertion that Taschner could be inserted and do the same job is similarly curious. I think you could find great support on this site, and from "experts" around the game that would say that Lidge's presence had a significant influence on stabilizing the Phillies pitching staff, particularly the bullpen, last season.

I wonder if you really believe your statements discounting the value of the closer position. If Taschner can do the job, then why even get Lidge? Why don't teams just throw in a Clay Condrey or a Geoff Geary? Why not just keep Tom Gordon?

Take a look teams like the Orioles, Nationals, Brewers (prior to Hoffman's DL activation). Ask them how they would assess the value of a guy who could shut the door and get three outs while up by two-three runs in the 9th inning. I bet they do not share your sentiment about any old Taschner getting the job done.

[J. Weitzel]

RSB: They probably needed to do something with Rollins just to give him a different look. Don't know if fifth makes the most baseball sense. But at least there he can stay involved with the big boys. If you drop him to seventh or something, they might have a disgruntled player on their hands. In a way, it's nice having a speed threat ahead of Ibanez and Feliz who can do some damage. I would have been prepared to let him keep taking his licks in the leadoff spot however. A lot of times, moves like these serve no purpose other than a symbolic gesture of the manager's frustration.

[TNA]

re: Lidge

his main problem right now is not throwing strikes, especially with his first pitch to batters (which he does less than half the time). the only person on the team who has a lower strike percentage is Eyre, who is the worst pitcher on the team right now.

at this point, batters are taking pitches, not necessarily biting on sliders that fall out of the zone because his fastball can't be located, and getting into hitter counts.

when he does throw strikes, he's missing as many bats as Madson.

re: Park
yesterday's performance was good. not great. not bad. it was acceptable for a 5th starter. it may have appeared like an incredible performance given the rotation's woes, but that should be the standard for the 5th starter, and a baseline for the pitchers higher up on the ladder.

speaking of pitchers on higher rungs, Moyer has got to come through tonight. his peripherals are terrible, and it's showing up in the boxscore, W-L record be damned because he's been getting a ton of run support (6.0 R/IP, which is in sharp contrast to Park who gets 2.4 R/IP while he's in the game).

re: Rollins
I like the lineup of Vic, Utley, Rollins, Howard, Werth, Ibanez, Ruiz. Rollins performed well and produced as the #3 hitter for team USA during the WBC. However, that's not the lineup to use now while Rollins is slumping. That said, I feel Rollins is about to turn the corner.

[thephaithful]

Goody: The Phils win a game and Charlie does nothing wrong?

He pinch hit for Park in the bottom of the 6th - that is EEXXACCTTLLYY what he did with Myers last weekend and everyone came on and argued that Manuel is an idiot, because they ended up losing that game.

It amazes me how short of an memory people have, i mean we're talking less than a few games!!

[thephaithful]

Also, let me clarify that I believe pinch hitting for Myers in that spot was the right move, and the same thing for Park last night - I am simply bringing it up because the same people who called for Charlie's head in a loss are now "surprised" that Charlie did nothing wrong last night when they win.

Very annoying.

[MPN]

A below the radar story, for me at least thus far, is how un-clutch Dobbs has been. He continues to come up small in pinch hitting situations. His problem, it seems to me, is that he needs to play in order to get better passes on the ball, but that isn't going to happen if the $4 Million Man (Fay-lease as Wheels says) at third base's surgically repaired back has him playing well on both sides of the ball. Stairs now seems to be Charlie's strategic reserve PH bat off the bench for the crucial scenarios.

[J.R. King]

RSB and Jason: There's another reason Charlie may have wanted Jimmy at #5. Teams are reluctant to pitch to Howard and Ibanez has been one of the top hitters in the National League thus far. So, hitting in between those two, Rollins will likely see a couple more fastballs.

[thephaithful]

Also, not to rain on Werth's parade, but I think his throwing accuracy has been less the desired so far this young season - at least compared to his stellar play last year.

[mvptommyd]

JR King: Exactly right, as I tried to explain yesterday for about a half hour and no one understood. It was like I was speaking a different language.

Thats why I love this site and find it at times funny. For being such stats heads, it seems like most the people on here never played the game for an extended period of time. Because some of things that creep up in games people just can't grasp.

For example, the Victorino play with Reyes. People on here said it was "bush league" or "cheap". Excuse me, but you are taught that in little league if someone is in your path. Also, this who batting 5th between 2 100+ RBI guys equals more fastballs thing. Rollins isn't seeing pitches clearly at the leadoff spot, he is mixing up breaking balls ad fastballs. Therefore, causing him to pop up. At the 5th spot he is getting mostly fastballs and able to get his timing back.

7th isn't the idle spot for him because he won't see any pitches there because pitchers will rather face Ruiz even with Jimmy in a slump, Ruiz is less dangerous.6th isn't idle for the same reasons except with Feliz.

[clout]

Iceman: "Lidge to be the...setup man? Middle relief? That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard."

Lidgeb lost his job as closer for the Astros in both 2006 and 2007. They moved him to setup man where he was superb.

[clout]

IOP: Go back and analyze what happened in those "two average seasons" and what his role was when he was pitching well.

[mvptommyd]

clout:"Lidgeb lost his job as closer for the Astros in both 2006 and 2007. They moved him to setup man where he was superb."

Please tell me your joking. The man had 1 Blown save and you want to move him?

In 2006 and 2007, he had 14 BS combined.

You are crazy, your making yourself sound foolish.

[R.Billingsly]

Also, not to rain on Werth's parade, but I think his throwing accuracy has been less the desired so far this young season - at least compared to his stellar play last year.

Wow. Really going out of your way to be negative. I'd hate to see what you have to say if he goes 1-4 and only steals second twice.

[J.R. King]

Werth was deadly accurate last year. Another good thing we can expect to see later this season.

[Andy]

The two "average seasons" were before he discovered the potential of his slider. I'm not sure how predictive they are of future success/failure. My concern is that his fastball is, currently, fairly hittable. Good hitters look to foul off any close sliders but really take a wack at the FB. I wonder if something he is doing mechanically is causing his still fast fastball to not move adequately.

Also, I don't know enough about the craft, but I do wonder if he's ever worked any on some kind of third pitch, like a change-up. It doesn't need to be too good, just adequate to throw when he's thrown 4 sliders that have gotten fouled off on a 3-2 count. Throw that lefty a 90 mph change-up that he thinks is a 95 mph fastball and you may get a dribbler to second.

In re: Jimmy
He will definitely see different pitchesand fewer at bats from the five hole. It has not hurt us so far.

Anyone know if Pedro Feliz has EVER walked four times in a game before?

[clout]

mvptommy: "The man had 1 Blown save and you want to move him?"

English is evidently your second language. Please find the post where I said I want to move Lidge from the closer role.

[Andy]

I just realized, after posting, that with regard to James Rollins, I was completely agreeing with mvptommy...it is a very strange time.

As I look out the window I'm wondering if those are really starlings, or bird sized locusts?

[clout]

Andy: Really? Lidge didn't have a slider in 2004 and 2005? That's news to me.

[LwrSlwrGeorge]

"For the series against the Yanks, the Phils are scheduled to face Pettitte and Sabathia Saturday and Sunday. I'd bring up Mayberry for the weekend, have him play left and have Ibanez DH."

Can we get deal with LA and the Natinals before we start the Muttsfans-esque talk about a series 11 days away?

[mvptommyd]

Iceman: "Lidge to be the...setup man? Middle relief? That's the most absurd thing I've ever heard."

Lidgeb lost his job as closer for the Astros in both 2006 and 2007. They moved him to setup man where he was superb.

Posted by: clout | Wednesday, May 13, 2009 at 09:44 AM

Um, clout...on this team that is absurd. By the post you infer you have no problem should he move roles.

[Iceman]

clout- not saying that he couldn't pull off a set-up role. What I find absurd is the notion that blowing one save after a perfect season is reason enough to demote him to set-up in lieu of a guy who hasn't proven he can get the job done. A DL stint is much more reasonable.

I don't think his problem is folding in high-leverage situation, so I don't see what good it would do moving him to a situation in which he would incur less pressure. Send him to the DL if it's determined that it can't be repaired without costing the team games.

Even more absurd: the observation that Taschner could have been the closer to this point.

[clout]

tommy: Really? Let me try again. And it's OK to move your lips as you read. Here was what I was saying: That Lidge lost his closer job with the Astros. Several times in 2 years. There is nothing in that statement that infers my views at all. It is a simple fact, that his troubles this year do have some precedence. Get it?

[clout]

Iceman: "What I find absurd is the notion that blowing one save after a perfect season is reason enough to demote him to set-up in lieu of a guy who hasn't proven he can get the job done. A DL stint is much more reasonable."

I agree. I thought you were saying the notion of him as setup man was absurd.

[thephaithful]

RBills: I am just responding to JW's inclusion of his defense being great.

His D was stellar in 08 and I think it will be in 09, but so far I've noticed that his arm has not been as accurate this year most of this season.

Werth is the man and I think he excels in all of the 'small things' ontop of having excellent tools as well - a very rare occurance. Just making a small note to some of his errant throws in early 09, thats all.

[timr]

You can blow a game in the 8th just as easily as you can blow it in the 9th. Moving Lidge right now isn't going to change a thing for him, his problems are mechanical and possibly based on an injured knee. Moving him to the 8th isn't going to magically correct his mechanics or heal his knee. Plus, Madson's been so dominant as the set-up guy why would you want to mess with that?

[timr]

Has this been posted yet? Jimmy is indeed pissed about the move out of the leadoff spot. He got angry at Todd Zolecki when he asked about it:

He just sort of glared at Zolecki before continuing. "I don't see where else I would hit in the lineup. Today, I'm batting fifth. That's that. I'm a leadoff hitter. That's what I do. It doesn't matter what the numbers say. I'm going to produce. Pretty much - especially in this lineup with all the power guys - it wouldn't make sense to keep me down in the lineup where my game is speed."

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/homepage/20090513_Gonzo___A_leading_man_s_foibles.html

[TNA]

re: Lidge

According to the data provided by fangraphs, Lidge's pitches, in terms of movement and velocity aren't that different from last year; the vertical and horizontal movement on his pitches is almost the same, and his velocity is 1 mph slower on his fastball.

His problem is that he isn't establishing his fastball down in the strike zone and he's getting behind hitters by throwing a lot less first-pitch strikes compared to years past. His GB/FB/LD splits show that he's leaving too many pitches up in the strike zone; especially relative to last year. I have to assume that most of these pitches are fastballs because sliders that end up at the top of the zone would mean that he's aiming them above the strike zone (if that is the case, however, his mechanics must be really messed up). The problem his fastballs are being tagged is because there's too much of a difference between the location of the fastballs and the sliders (which seem to have the same location as last year) so hitters can too easily identify the fastballs.

[mm]

For all of those with direct tv. Why don't you spend the same amount of money for mlb.tv, sure there is some difference in quality, but you can watch any game you want that isn't broadcast in your home market(plus the annoying sat and sun blackouts), but still 5 days a week, you get to see the phils for the same price. Also, if you have a newer tv, it probably has some sort of PC input, you can run your computer right into your tv and still watch it in your living room.

[EastFallowfield]

Get all the games on directv except the Fox ones. Why deal with hassles of computer and picture quality?

[EastFallowfield]

Yo, new thread

[Andy]

clout: Lidge didn't have a slider in 2004 and 2005? That's news to me, too.