Part of

« NL East: Standings tighten after Mets' loss in LA | Main | Game chat: Phillies visit Reds; Happ joins rotation »

Tuesday, May 19, 2009


From the last thread:

BAP: All common sense says to call up Mayberry. That's why I think the Phillies will pick Harman

I think you nailed it there. And even better, he's already been called up before when they did it last year. Afterall, what do we logically need? Another no-hit infielder!!!

On KK: I made this comment a couple days ago on PhuturePhillies: "I think the KK miff was quite intentional on the part of Dubee and UC. IMHO, it clearly was a message for him to focus on improving his secondary pitches/command and not worry about a short-term callup. They want him to come back and be an effective 5th starter, not spot start the 2nd half of a double-header and then head right back down."

On BAP's comments regarding Harmon getting the call up for the Yankees series. BAP's logic is surely Chollyesque. BAP are you sure you're not channeling Cholly's brain while you are sleeping?

"Why do people continue to think that Omar "I only sign Latino players" Minaya is a good GM?"

He has made the Mets a contending club. Also, he doesn't only sign Latinos, although most of his best signings/deals involved a Latin player.

Most people could make them a contending club with that payroll... that doesn't neccessarily make him a good GM.

Signing Oliver Perez over Derek Lowe is a prime example of his greatness...not that I'm complaining.

PhilsGal, you can see all the Mets/dodgers lowlights on

Link to the wrap page is HERE.

The Beltran error, the Curch miss of 3B, the throwing error to end the game are all available on the gamewrap segment.

"Most people could make them a contending club with that payroll... that doesn't neccessarily make him a good GM."

I'll take that to mean that the goodness of any high-payroll GM is indeterminable. We can only know if they're bad, if the team loses.

Interesting view, although I don't hold it.

look, i realize i'll get blasted for saying this and accused of being some sort of FO schill, but i understand and support Amaro's recent decisions not to burn guys without options. pitching staffs a year after a WFC have suffered in recent experience the following season from the apparent extra innings. i believe that's why he stashed all those extra middling bullpen arms at AAA to begin with. combine that logic with the way the Phils starters have been pitching out of the gate this season and the concern for bullpen overuse is enormous. i believe Majewski et al. down there at AAA will prove useful this season, and i believe the FO does too, but they see their value as being greater later in the season when Condrey or Durbin suffer the inevitable deadarm. all i am saying is that the roster spot Escalona is occupying now is not going to last forever and if they had called up Majewski and then had to send him back down and lost him on the waiver wire, i would bet money (if i had any) that we'd be bitching about Majewski's effectiveness in San Diego or Washington or Pittsburgh come August.
i don't think this sort of thinking would cloud their judgment over offensive players, so if they're certain Mayberry won't rot on the bench in the upcoming AL series, i bet that's who they tap.

please, commence firing.

The past seasons the Phils showed that over least a particular 10-game stretch of what they were capable of doing by playing when playing a high level.

So far, the Phils haven't done that and kind of muddled their way through the month with a slight climb north in the standings thanks to their recent weekend series in DC.

JW is right - this team needs to go 8-4 or 9-3 the next four series (Cin/NYY/Fla/DC) because June does look like a tough month and I see the Phils at best as playing .500 baseball in June including their killer 2-week stretch of interleague games where this team has played horrendously and is not well-built to win those type of games again (lack of right-banded bat to play DH and some starting pitching that will struggle to get through a pitcher-less lineup).

I had no issues whatsoever with Escalona over Majewski/Koplove as its a short-term callup. Why risk losing one of the latter two for a short callup? If they were to call up Harmon over Mayberry I would question it as Mayberry is the better player and can help us defensively...same with Ozuna. We dont need another "versatile" infielder on the bench.

Its not as if Escalona has hurt us so I dont see any legit criticism of the move.

Minor League Update-
Lehigh Valley beat Gwinnett 3-1. Mayberry went 2-4 with a 2B and had 1 K. Rodrigo Lopez went 7 innings with 1 ER and 6 K's. Lopez has only had one bad start out of his 6 so far. I think there is a distinct possibility that he will be the next starter up.

Also of note- Mike Koplove had a one inning save with 2 K's and now has a .47 ERA. Donald and Marson both went 0-3 and are hitting .242 and .205 respectively.

"Majewski et al. down there at AAA will prove useful this season"

For instance, last weekend Majewski would have been useful.

I'm not going to call you a schill, Myers. But I'm going to say the FO did not put the best team available on the 25-man roster. I'm not sure why you'd want to defend that decision.

NEPP: LOL! When I saw they gave Oliver Perez 36mil I laughed hysterically. Imagine the dire straights we would be in if they had given that Money to Ibanez instead.

Mayberry would make a lot of sense for the Phillies this weekend. Not sure if they want to waste an option on him however.

We'd lose Majewski as soon as Romero came back so I dont see the issue. We'd have to expose him to waivers to send him back down and I'm sure there's a team out there that would take him as their 12th pitcher...same with Koplove.

T.J. Bohn must be floating around out there somewhere. Maybe we could sign him to be the right-handed bat.

"Why do people continue to think that Omar "I only sign Latino players" Minaya is a good GM?"

NEPP: Considering how much money Omar has spent, & how little the Mets have accomplished in that time, I'm continually amazed that he hasn't been fired. Minaya took up the mantle of "Worst GM In The League" from Ed Wade & freakin' *ran* with it.


"The Phils reliance on outslugging opponents will only get them so far, and the Mets inability to congeal is already proving problematic."

drew: I agree w/ you RE: the Phils, but "congeal"? That would be great for me, not so much for you. I think word you're looking for is "gel" ... :-S


""mets" and "class" in the same sentence? did someone leave out the "dont have any"


phanatic's brother: The Mets put the "ass" in "class" ... maybe that's what Rosenthal meant?

Albert: He has 3 options left. He will not need all three unless he turns out to be a AAAA outfielder.

NEPP: If the Phils have three relivers for depth, would it be the worst thing in the world to lose one? If these guys are valuable enough to the big club to worry about losing one of them, isn't it worth the risk to take advantage of those valuable releivers?

Why not waste the option on Mayberry? If he's not ready to be a 25 man roster guy permanently by his Age 29 season then he's not a loss anyway. Our shortterm need for a RH bat is more important than possibly losing a 4th OF in 2011. And at least we'd be able to see what we've got with him at this point.

B-Mac - I wouldn't be surprised to see Lopez as the guy who gets the next callup for start if their an injury/ineffectiveness.

Carrasco has really struggled, Carpenter doesn't deserve another look until Sept. 1, and KK has been pretty mediocre from what I have read. Plus, there isn't anybody at Reading that has pitched lights out and worth a reach at this point either.

To G-Town Dave: Brian Sabean has solidly held the "Worst GM" belt since the firing of Bill Bavasi last year. Bavasi had it for his entire tenure in Seattle.

To J.R. King: Escalona was fine in his inning of work so its hard to criticize the move. The rest of the pen should be rested for this week now so its not likely to hurt us anyway. Why lose a guy for potentially 1 inning of work when we could very well really need either or both relievers in the 2nd half.

I could possibly see Bastardo called up at some point if he continues to dominate Reading.

My bet is that Amaro is still sifting through this pitching roster over the next 2 weeks (especially the starting rotation) to see what happens.

If they continue to really struggle, I think you are going to see a pretty dramatically different pitching roster with several moves made once Romero returns the 1st week of June.

The only question I have at this point is what happens with Moyer if he continues to get lite up like the 4th of July over his next 2-3 starts. One thing to struggle over a 2-3 start stretch. It generally happens with all veteran starters. Another to get blasted over 5-6 straight starts where you don't make it even out of the 5th inning and have an ERA well north of 7.

Other thing I am interested to see if the starters can somehow cut down the rate of HRs a bit. It would go a long way to making this rotation's numbers look more acceptable and with this offense they don't need more than an average starting pitching staff.

Rodrigo Lopez is mediocrity defined. If Moyer continues to get bashed, mediocrity would be an ok short-term upgrade. But it would be nice to find someone with a bit more upside.

The Phillies also signed Gustavo Chacin this off-season. He has more upside than Lopez, but the odds of his actually getting back to that upside are fairly remote. Plus, I don't think he has pitched yet this year. I guess he's still injured.

FWIW, Todd Zolecki mentioned in his blog today that he thinks the Phillies will replace Park in the rotation with Happ for his next start. Zo's been correct before on things (like Burrell's non-arbitration, etc)

NEPP - If Bastardo sees a start in the Phils' rotation this year, it wouldn't be a good sign. Means they likely have really struggled to find 5 credible starters & had a couple of injuries and throwing stuff against the wall to see what sticks.

NEPP: Give Sabean the chance to increase his payroll 45% & I'd be willing to bet he does no worse than Omar, & probably better.

NEPP: I hear what your saying about Escalona's hastle-free inning of work, but it's the pricipal of the thing that irks me. Unless it's going to hurt the team long term, put the best 25 guys in the dugout. If they lose Majewski, they still have Koplove. If Mayberry loses an option year, he has 2 more.

With KK, on the other hand, maybe they were thinking that long-term he'd be better off not getting bounced back after one start. I'll give them the benefit of the doubt on that one.

Dave - Your kidding right? Sabean has been horrendous the past few years including failing to put a credible team around Bonds' final seasons. SF fans are usually pretty mellow but they are right that Sabean has been a horrible GM.

He tried to get a legit FA bat to come to SF and failed. So instead, he spent a huge load on Zito even though it was likely that the Giants generally were competing against themselves as the Mets' interest in Zito wasn't as paramount as thought. Sabean likely gave Zito an extra $30M at least because he missed the market so badly for him.

There are plenty of other moves you couldn't point to including some horrendous FA signings the past several years. Basically the Giants have lacked any kind of cohesive plan as an organization and signed/overpaid veterans who were generally on the downside of their career.

About the only thing that Sabean has done right is revamp the minor league system for the Giants who have some really good prospects coming up. The issue is that Sabean dislikes using younger players and Bochy isn't a good manager with a younger team.

What the Giants should have done last year was fire Sabean and Bochy and bring in a new GM and coach who was prepared to build this team gradually in a pennant contender over the next 2-3 years. Instead, Sabean went out again this offseason and signed a number of aging veterans on the downsides of their career.

MG: Nope, not kidding. Omar has pulled the same crap in NY, spent far more money on dumb FA signings & can't seem to field a team that's still playing in October, either. They're both terrible, but I think Minaya is the dumber of the two.

After all star break it will be pretty tough. They play 17 staight games from July 16th - Aug. 2nd. (July 23 is the make up Padres game) 3 @ FL, 3 vs Cubs, 1 vs SD, 3 vs STL, 3 @ AZ, 4 @ SF

Plus I think a few Phils will make the All Star team this season. Managers like rewarding their guys, Utley is a lock, so is Ibanez (Manuel will def. pick him) and probably Howard also with it being in his hometown and all.

Still haven't seen an argument for why Minyana is a bad GM--although if it's the same line of reasoning that shows that the Eagles are badly run--"NO CHAMPIONSHIPS!!!#$@#"--then don't bother.

Klaus: The way the Eagles are run is a f*cking disgrace, & I hate Lurie, Banner & Reid to the core of my being.

Klaus: Baseball is a bit different than football in that the lack of salary cap is a HUGE advantage to the Mets (and Yankees, Dodgers, Angels, Cubs, White Sox, Cardinals, Giants and Phillies).

Not making the playoffs with their payroll is a bit worse than the Eagles not winning a championship.

G-Town: One difference between Sabean & Minaya is that, when Sabean has spent big money, he has not only overspent by obscene amounts, but he has whiffed horrendously (i.e., Zito, Rowand, Durham, M. Morris, D. Roberts). Minaya's big-ticket transactions have mostly been solid -- i.e., Santana, Delgado, Glavine, Beltran, K-Rod. Where he has failed is in the minutiae of finding complementary players to round out the roster. Those types of errors are more correctable than the ones that Sabean has made. When you sign Barry Zito for $126M or Aaron Rowand for $60M, you've put a financial burden on the team which will take years to undo.

J.R.: Mets went to the playoffs in '06 and won a series. The Mets ought to have gone to the playoffs in 07; I don't blame the GM for the fact that they didn't do so.

I mostly agree with BAP.

JR- not putting the best 25 guys on the field as a principled matter bugs me too. but what i was trying to say earlier about the Escalona decision is that it bugs me less in mid May. it's a loooooong season and to risk losing Majewski or Koplove now is imprudent given the unpredictability of the next five months. maybe Escalona wasn't the best pitcher to call up, but burning his option now and saving the other arms for later may just enable the FO to put the best 25 on the field in September when the stakes will be higher.

sorry to just jump back in. lunchtime=over

b_a_p: I'll see you Zito & Rowand, & raise you Pedro Martinez (1 good year for $53 million), Moises Alou, Scott Schoeneweis & the Oliver Perez contract extension. And it's all well & good to give Omar credit for K-Rod, but how much are the Mets paying Billy Wagner not to pitch this season?

Correction: I agree entirely with BAP. Minaya's secondary moves have been lacking, although the Church/Milledge trade would have proved stupendous if not for bad luck.

To my mind a good GM is a GM whose team a) competes and, correspondingly, b) makes more good moves than bad, a few that are very good and none that are crippling.

I think a fair look at Minaya's record shows him to be "good", not great.

Minaya is no great GM, that's for sure. Still, he took over a team that had gone 71-91 in 2004. With only a $5M increase in the team's payroll, he managed to bring in Beltran and Pedro and improve the team by 12 games. The next year, with no increase in overall payroll, he brought in Wagner, LoDuca, and Delgado, and the team won 97 games and the NL East. 2 years later, he brought in Santana, and now K-Rod. Meanwhile, he locked up Wright & Reyes with long-term deals.

The irony is that, as the payroll has gone up, Minaya's results have gotten somewhat worse because he has used the extra money to round out his roster with high-priced, and often washed-up, veterans. Clearly Minaya is not a great judge of talent. The Mets' minor league system hasn't produced much major league talent in the last 5 or 6 years and he has not shown any aptitude for finding cheap, below-the-radar players like Jayson Werth, Greg Dobbs, Chad Durbin, or Shane Victorino. But when he makes a big move, he has rarely been wrong. As a result, he has raised the Mets from being terrible to being perennial contenders. All in all, he has been a somewhat above average GM, but he could definitely benefit from a better scouting system.

Klaus: Expectations are where you & I differ. The Phillies "competed" almost every year from '01-'06, & it wasn't a very happy time for me as a fan. "Competing" is what the Eagles & Flyers do. "Competing" is an excuse for not getting it done. GMs are responsible for building championship teams, & for Omar Minaya to not even field a playoff team the past two seasons, w/ more money to play w/ than any GM in the Nationsl League, is neither "great" nor "good". I wasn't happy w/ the way Ed Wade spent my money, & the money of other Phillies fans when he was the GM in Phila., & I sure a hell wouldn't be happy w/ the way my money was being spent if I were a Mets fan.

Phillies are 9-7 in May right now. Hopefully this past weekend gets the bats swinging some hot ball again.

*Nationsl = National

Infielder Miguel Cairo, who the Phillies designated for assignment after Friday's game in Washington, has accepted his minor league assignment, although it is unclear when he will join Triple-A Lehigh Valley. Cairo had to accept the assignment as part of his contract.

G-Town: Pedro was not a great contract, obviously. But his overall record with the Mets was 32-23, with a 3.88 ERA and a 1.16 WHIP. And Wagner's was a typical veteran contract: if you give an older player a 4-year deal, and you get 3 good years from him, you've gotten your money's worth. The Mets got 2 1/2 good years. The signing was hardly a disaster on the order of Zito or Rowand.

As for Ollie Perez, his track record says he's a 65th percentile starting pitcher who, like Brett Myers, is given to periods of complete ineptitude. Chances are pretty good that he will come back and be pretty decent for them both this year & in future years. I'll judge this contract in 3 years.

G-town: I mean "compete" as "having a reasonable chance at winning a championship"--and I stress chance, because that's all that any team in a given season has.

"chance" also in the sense that there's a significant luck factor

Minaya's best moves have been the ones where he spent more money than almost every team in baseball is willing to do (Pedro, Beltran, Santana, KRod).

Any move that requires not simply being the highest bidder seem a little less amazing.

b_a_p: Then let's judge the Zito deal in 5 years. All I'm saying is that, given the resources he's had to work w/, Minaya has shown a whole lotta nothing. Everybody thought the guy was some kind of genius when he built Expos teams that would compete for 2/3 of a season & then collapse at the end. "Just imagine what he could do w/ a team willing to spend money!", people said. Turns out what Omar can do is build a team that collapses in September instead of August.

Dave - Sabean has been the GM of a team that has averaged just 73 wins the past 4 seasons. That's really bad. Contrast that to the 89 wins the Mets have averaged since Minaya became the Mets' GM.

You have an odd way of defining success.

"Turns out what Omar can do is build a team that collapses in September instead of August. "


My two cents - Omar has under-achieved so far. The outcome of this season will be, I think, the final indicator of his success. If the Mets don't go to the World Series, I have a hunch he'll be fired.

I think Minaya is overrated and has underachieved, but Sabean is definitely worse.

MG: Compare Sabean's first 4 seasons in SF w/ Omar's first 4 in NY. Also, you're not allowing for the fact that an extra $70 million or so might have an impact on a team's W/L record. Again, give Sabean & Minaya the same payroll to work w/, & I think they break even, at best. Omar has always been overrated as a GM, & his teams have done nothing to show that he's worthy of the praise he has received. At least a Sabean team actually reached the World Series ...


And speaking of which, an unrelated, but interesting, note:

MLB Announces World Series Games Will Start Earlier

Bah. Stupid link worked when I hit "Preview", but not when I hit "Post". Here's the cut 'n' paste version:

I don't know how well-rated Minaya is these days. Certainly it isn't controversial to say that, at this point, he is playing for his job, so to speak.

Shhh. Omar's press conference is about to start.

Omar about to make an idiot of himself...

No GM is perfect. Gillick wasn't perfect (Adam Eaton?)

Omar just got a new deal (3 more years after this one) so he should be around to have battle of wits with Ruben for a few years at least.

do you think murphy will be in the starting lineup tonight?

ugh, omar is gonna spew the same stuff man...

so, do they trade for Huff? I like that idea

Omar is def. on the hot seat...

I trust my guys.

yes I believe Murphy will be in there although unfortunately I think its going to be at 1st...

Can anyone tell me what Omar is saying? I can't here it at work. I hope nothing bad about Reyes

I gotta agree guys,Murphy should start tonight

Huff is def. the way to go. Stay far away from Johnson. He'll have another freak accident. This time it'll be rupturing a hair follicles. while putting his helmet.

"I'm confident in going to war with the guyz we have out there right now ju know whadimsayin? I think if the potential is there for a potential trade, then of couse we will look to all avenues we can pursue ju know whatimsayin?"

Omar isnt making any moves. maybe some garbage from someone else's team but noone of importance...

Its pretty crazy that Cora went down, i hope not for too long, i was really starting to like him

What's up with all the mets folks here today? Dont you guys still have your own blog to talk on?

"i don't think we need to necessarily make moves. i think we have guys that have toughness, play with edge, and grit. that's how i constructed this roster ju know whadimsayin?"

Yeah Murphy needs to get some games under his belt for 1B. Jerry make the right move please!

Yea, he was our "smartest player" remember?

i disagree. Murphy is a terrible defensive player. The Dan Uggla of the Mets.

he'll be a disaster at 1B...

btw Omar isnt saying anything we dont know already

Cerrone probably turned off the comments again.

Oleo, Murphy is a natural 3rd baseman, the move to first shouldnt be that much of a transition.

"btw Omar isnt saying anything we dont know already"

so he's basically saying we are screwed?

I agree SVBB, Huff can also play OF in case Delgado comes back to play this season. He can hit for power and can be a threat.

Believe it or not, Huff's numbers are similar to Victor Martinez numbers. Huff is probably cheaper though.

a natural 3B he might be but he also averaged over 30 errors a season there in the minors.

1B is a much more important position anyway...

NEPP: Apparently their blog is rife w/ censorship now. *shrug*

BTW, I enjoyed your 'Simpsons' reference in the other thread -- "But Skip, I hit 9 home runs today!" Classic! :-D

Huff is absolutely cheaper. Much cheaper. Question, when was the last time there was a trade in May?

Good point, Oleo.

Huff would be a fantastic addition. I would have liked Ibanez to begin with but unfortunately he's keeping the Phillies alive right now...

but hey why do you need corner outfielders when you have K-Rod and Putz!!!

Ibanez is a beast. Talk about underrated.

Let's go get Huff Omar!

Zolecki twitter : Park out of rotation Happ in.

rex: "Free at last, free at last ... !" :-D

as a Phils fan in Brooklyn, i have to chime in on this Minaya debate... he's an awful GM. it's so bad, it's the kind of bad GMing that leads to delusions of baseball omniscience from casual fans of the other team...
he just doesn't seem to be able to critically evaluate the roster he's created. for instance, relying on Moises Alou to be the everyday leftfielder in 2008 and failing to acquire a platoon player or ready reinforcements to fill in upon Alou's inevitable DL trip. or how about the Duaner Sanchez's mistake... relying on a guy to be the primary set up man in your bullpen after he had his pitching shoulder surgically reconstructed. yeah, he'll be the same pitcher. or thinking El Duque could realistically make 32 starts in 2008. or signing Luis Castillo, a 32 year old speed player with "balky knees", to a 4 year, $25 million contract. or not recognizing that while the "collapse" in 2007 was certainly historic, it was a long time coming. they'd been a .500 ballclub since July of 2006. it's clear from looking at that ballclub that they're tired. tired of the manager? tired of each other? tired of playing baseball? Minaya just seems deaf to the dissonance in his own clubhouse and that is the mark of a truly terrible GM. i hope he stays forever!

Confirmed. :-)

David Murphy (Twitter): "Happ in rotation. Park bullpen."

The_Real_Wheels (Twitter) Sez: "Chili on spaghetti? Better than you'd think!"

I *heart* The_Real_Wheels ... :-D

Wheels on twitter, the two most unnecessary things ever combined in one simple package.

Now we just have to get Park out of the bullpen too.

I guess everyone in Korea will now have to wake up early every morning, instead of just every fifth morning. But, since Park wouldn't be coming into the game until at least the 5th or 6th inning, at least they can sleep in an extra 90 minutess or so -- except on days that Moyer pitches.

How sad it must be to be a Mets fan and have nowhere to go...

Happ in, Park out is a start to hopefully shoring up the rotation a bit.

BTY - Park didn't make it until June 1st so for once Clout was 100% wrong about something.

Myers: And we haven't even discussed how Omar has repeatedly botched the draft, or leveraged the Mets' farm system to the hilt by trading young players for overpriced veterans on their way to the DL ...

Park just cost himself a ton of money in incentives:

According to Cot's Contracts Park has $2.5M in performance bonuses based on starts (15-37), innings (110-170), games (30-70) and games finished (35-55).

He likely will hit a few targets on GA and maybe innings but likely Park won't make much on the incentive-side this year. Still, with his $2.5M deal I doubt he ends up on the waiver wire unless he really struggles in the bullpen.

I'll be curious to see how Park accepts the 'pen assignment.

Almost as curious as to see how Happ handles getting the ball every 5th day. I'm just hoping it's not a shell game.

Moyer/Blanton, take note.

Gtown Dave: true story.

Yeehaw, now only 2/5th of our rotation completely sucks!

lineups posted:

1. Jimmy Rollins, SS
2. Chase Utley, 2B
3. Raul Ibanez, LF
4. Ryan Howard, 1B
5. Jayson Werth, RF
6. Shane Victorino, CF
7. Pedro Feliz, 3B
8. Carlos Ruiz, C
9. Cole Hamels, P

GTown Dave:
Myers: And we haven't even discussed how Omar has repeatedly botched the draft, or leveraged the Mets' farm system to the hilt by trading young players for overpriced veterans on their way to the DL ...

I challenge you to name one instance of this. What is one instance where Omar leveraged the Mets' farm system to the hilt by trading young players for overpriced veterans on their way to the DL?

The comments to this entry are closed.

EST. 2005

Top Stories


Rotoworld News

Follow on Twitter

Follow on Facebook

Contact Weitzel