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Thursday, April 16, 2009


Well JW, this is one place we disagree. I grew up in a family where waffles were made from scratch with real butter in them - the old family recipe (which I still have and use).

I guess for a pre-made frozen food Eggos are ok, but compared to what I'm used to, they really don't do it for me.

Oh, and you need to use real maple syrup too. Log Cabin and Mrs. B's - too many chemical in them.

Go for the pure and natural.

Tney could possible squeeze the game in on May 28th. It's an open date for both teams, who open a series here the next day.

The Nats would have to travel home from Bailout Park, and the Phils would be heading home form Florida and could stop in DC.

Oops, I meant to say the Phils could shoot down 95 from the Zen, as a series with FL will just have ended.

Agree 100 percent on pure maple syrup, but that's as real as it gets in terms of breakfast. No time for real waffles. Beerleaguer can't write itself.

It's like a plaid pancake.

I thought Jim Gaffigan only liked Hot Pockets.

Nice. Now Weitzel is making me hungry...

I like Matt Stairs...I mean canadian bacon.

Can someone explain why Lidge starts by throwing these straight totally hittable 93MPH fastballs and finally switches to his patented sliders to end the threat--I have seen him do it twice in a row now.

I'm a big fan of any flavor of Pop Tart.

On baseball- this season is just one big distraction so far, and will continue to be so through this weekend with the HK ceremonies, but the Phils can handle and will persevere.

"Beerleaguer can't write itself."

I should say that we all appreciate how prolific you are. We must pull you away from either the Reading Eagle or your wife or both. Thank them for us.

Pork roll, real waffles made in a waffle iron, soaked in real syrup. And beerleaguer open on my laptop, of course ... ;-)

Eggos?? Uggos! Off the top of my head I can think of better things to eat for breakfast than frozen cardboard Eggo waffles: scrambled eggs, ham, link sausage, hash browns, cold cereal, real waffles, real pancakes, omelets, oatmeal, cream of wheat, a cold beer, etc. Eggos????

The Houston Astros pregame played the first Harry Kalas broadcast clip from the Astrodome as the Astros announcer. It was a preseason game with the NY Yankees as the teams headed north. Harry announced Mickey Mantle as the next batter. Roger Maris was also due to bat that inning. In an interview clip, Harry's greatest Houston memories was beating Houston in a Nolan Ryan started deciding game 5 in a best of 5 to win the 1980 NLCS against Houston and have the Phillies go to the WS.

Keystone light and cheerios

Lets see if fat Joe can get the first QS of the season. 15.75 ERA heading into the game.

I was always a fan of Aunt Jemima waffles myself. Waffles should be square if you ask me.

In minor league news though, Kyle Kendrick pitched seven solid innings last night to pick up his first career Triple A win. And Kyle Drabek had a good outing as well.

"Maybe, just maybe, it makes sense to see how a guy performs before you argue about how bad he is?"

When did I argue otherwise? Park won the job fair and square in spring training and he deserves the chance that he is getting. And let the record be clear that I don't read much into the Coors Field game, and I am actually mildly optimistic about Park's prospects. He's highly motivated to succeed and was lights out in ST. Despite his recent history as a starter, I actually think he's got a chance to be pretty decent.

My only point is that, if he isn't decent, and if he goes out and repeats the Coors game 1 or 2 more times, then I DO think it's fair to conclude that he is no longer cut out for starting duty. This harkens back to the Pedro Feliz debate of early last season, where people took the position that it was unfair to draw conclusions about him until he had been given a chance -- as if he were some kind of blank slate & we were required to ignore those 7 full seasons in San Francisco. Park is not a blank slate; he is a pitcher with a long track record of being terrible as a starter. If he goes out and starts off the season with 3 or 4 more terrible games, you don't need to see 10 additional starts to realize what's going on.


AWH: Most likely you'll see a day-night doubleheader rather than a game on an open date. Most teams prefer to reschedule these games for dates after school lets out.

Waffles with a sh*t ton of syrup and butter.

Can we call up Drabek by the All Star Break? :-)

As for my comment that Park was one of hte worst starters in baseball over the last 6 years . . . this feels like another semantical debate but I firmly stand by my statement. Between 2002 & 2007, his ERA+ as a starter were 83, 66, 93, 77, 65, 84, and 27. And, yes, I think it's fair to include the years where he had less than 100 IP. When small sample sizes are 100% consistent with the larger sample size of which they are a part, they ARE meaningful.

In any one year between 2002 & 2007, there were no doubt worse starting pitchers than Chan Ho Park. But those starting pitchers did not keep their jobs. There aren't too many major league starting pitchers who put up a 6-year track record of ineptitude that is comparable to Park's. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any.

I was hoping this would be a long post so that creepy gnome would be bumped off of my screen

I'm with you, BAP. I want Park to succeed and think it's possible for him to be an ok 5th starter(nothing more), but some people think he's got a long leash with this team.

so marson catching tonight, eh?

Why does Lidge start with fastballs and go to sliders?

Maybe he's working on stuff given the larger than 1 run leads he's been handed. Maybe he's trying to mix it up for the scouting reports.

I am looking forward to seeing Marson in a big league game that counts. Coste is off to a really rough start, with a lot of bad swings at pitches out of the zone. Hopefully Marson can run off a decent streak until Chooch gets back. At the very least he should be able to make pitchers work a little harder than Coste has been.

Time concerns, JW?

Get a Belgian waffle maker. One egg, 1/4 cup of canola oil, a dash of vanilla, about 1 and 2/3 cup of Bisquick and a can of seltzer.

A fine recipe that saves time and works well.

In re: the Bruntlett face (last thread)
I'm guessing he was practicing his game face in case he's called upon to intimidate batters in place of Pedro at third. (Dan: he may be a creepy gnome, but he's OUR creepy gnome.)

I'm with hh on the entire rotation. Park is the only one with a leash on, since they're not likely to pull anyone else before, like, July (even Moyer); so that may be why we're discussing him. But they have all stunk. I do recognize that until his FB velocity is back up, Cole is less effective, but Moyer concerns me. Too many LDs and, as Sophist noted, too many FBs. He'll get killed with that kinda stuff.

Here's hoping someone in the rotation steps it up over the next week.

Oh, in re: Happ and the 'pen
I think he gets another true shot at the rotation, even if Park recovers (in some unlikely event) the stuff he had in ST, when Moyer ages out. We'll need a finesse lefty in the rotation. Happ's the best until Savery emerges.

Happ will replace somebody this year in the rotation--I just hope it's not Hamels.

Happ replacing Moyer=OK. Happ replacing Hamels=not good.

BAP: OK, let me get this straight. In citing his yearly ERA+ stats, it's OK to include the 29 bad IP Park threw in 03 and the 1 bad IP he threw in 07, but wrong to include the good 26 IP he threw in 2008.

Yeah, that makes sense.

"So, in summary, we have a pitcher who had 3 bad years as a big league starter between 2004 and 2006. It is now 2009 and he pitched quite well as a starter in ST. Yet we are to believe that he will revert to what he was 3 years ago. That's certainly possible, but I don't find the facts particularly compelling."

Seems probable to me, clout. It isn't a matter of "revert[ing] to what he was 3 years ago," it's a matter of still being the same starter he was the last time he started a lot of games. 36 year-old Starting Pitcher X takes a two-year hiatus from the game for whatever reason; don't you usually expect him to be about the same pitcher, probably a little worse due to age, on his return from that hiatus? Starting pitchers of a certain age usually don't become dramatically better pitchers as they get 3 years older. Yeah, he did well in relief, but that's something completely different. I agree that we can afford to wait and see a few starts, but his performance in ST doesn't earn him anything more than that, a few starts. Otherwise, we should be giving Bruntlett a 30-game trial period at third to see if he's really a .360 hitter like he was in spring training.

Its nice that Peavy pitches against the Mets tonight, even nicer that it means the Phillies play 4 games against SD without having to face him. 4 out of the next 5 seems pretty attainable.

How about a quality start?

I would like a quality start. Can I order more than one?

I know this is OT for the thread and we're trying to move on, but before I forget, I wanted to post a personal favorite HK call. It was from a game I actually attended in 9/83 that helped the Phils win the division that year, and I heard the call later on replay:

"Here's the 3-2 pitch to Morgan ... swing and a high, towering drive to DEEP RIGHT CENTER FIELD .... Moreland back at the fence ... (long pause) ... OUTA HERE, HOME RUN JOE MORGAN ... Phils lead 7-6"

By the way, are there some links to some of the great calls people have been talking about, like "the runs are all unearned, but who cares"?

JW, do take Andy's advice and get you a Belgian Waffle maker. You can use any pancake or waffle mix. Pour it in the waffle maker, when it beaps, flip it over and take it out. My daughter adds chocolate chips. It is easy. You'll never eat another Eggo again!

The RSP vs. Chan Ho Park argument is getting old on this board. Park is a washed up over the hill pitcher. I doubt that he'll be a starter at season's end.

A lot of Park bashing, where's byungyun kim when you need him?

Tray: Yes, if I ignored what he did in spot starts last year and what he did in Spring Training, what you say makes perfect sense.

BAP - I'm just pointing out that sometimes you need to consider your natural proclivity towards pessimism (which I fully understand - as a Philly sports fan) when you project from past performance to predictions of future performance within the context of this particular team in this particular season. As I recall, you were all over Blanton last year, with a very impressive projection of how he'd perform here based on a statistical breakdown of how he performed in Oakland. Actually, you had me convinced that he'd suck.

My guess is that the Phils' management, in general, was in a pretty good place to determine that Park's performance in ST justified a legit shot in the rotation. My guess is that they factored in the reality that it was only ST, and his past performance as a starter.

So, I guess what it boils down to is how much leash he should be given. I'd say that 1 or 2 more games of not being decent is a pretty short leash - especially since it's the 5th spot in the rotation and IMO, Happ doesn't inspire much confidence.

It could also boil down to how you define "not decent." If he can't get past the second inning in his next two starts - I'm with you.

So you're telling me that 27 IP of spot starts and Spring Training, the latter of which is famously meaningless and largely played against non MLB-players, non-advanced players even, is strong, substantial, or even significant evidence of some kind of turnaround? I'd submit that bad pitching from '03 to '07, a stretch that includes three full seasons, heavily, heavily outweighs 27 IP of spot starts in '08 and a good ST in '09, notwithstanding that the latter sample is more recent. Also recall that we already have a tiny sample of how he's done in real games this season, and it's not too good. Start him a couple more times, more if he pitches well in those couple starts, but the odds are certainly against him.

On another note, I was looking at the Sports page, and Frank Fitzpatrick, by way of commenting on HK's potential successors, claimed that T-Mac is "a little chatty, but long on likability." Long on likability!

Phillies nation has some links to audio clips from the 08 post season.

Re: Marson says Lou Marson is batting .500 in 12 ABs against the Nats starter tonight. He's 0 for 1 in the majors which means Marson must be 6 for 11 off of Martis in the minors. Probably a good reason to get him in the game. No other Phil has more than one AB off of him.

Tray: Yes, I agree that one start in Coors is a tiny sample. But the arguments that you and BAP make about how 1 IP equals a full season in 07 and his bad record in 3 years prior that make it "probable" he will fail are not persuasive.

Remember, he is a 5th starter.

Amusing watching clout yet again take on the role of agent provocateur. Even he believes this team is better off with Happ in the rotation and Park in the bullpen.

so 3 years + 1nning of failure isn't indicative of potential failure?

No no, 1 IP doesn't equal a full season. It's just an inning. 04-06 is three full(ish) seasons. Since then, he's barely started. The spring training means next to nothing, the 27 IP in '08 means something, but not very much. I can't see how you aren't compelled to admit that if you have a pitcher who pitched 388 innings from '04 to '06 and 27 innings in '08, along with a good '09 spring training of 21 innings, (we'll throw out '07), and the samples vary in quality, the former sample, though older, is far more predictive. Because, you know, the older sample is 8 times bigger, and 14 times bigger if you don't count spring training. When a sample's that much bigger, and not that much older, it means a whole lot more.

There is no legitimate reason why Spring Training stats should ever be counted alongside Major League stats. They are NOT the same thing.

I probably shouldn't try to put words in clout's mouth, but I think he's indicating that Park won't be banished from the rotation that quickly, unless he repeatedly can't last past the third inning. The same reasoning that said Park would win the job in ST says he won't lose it again that quickly.

cj: haha so true. as soon as park gets sent down and Happ makes a good start he'll make sure to reference all of the "i was rooting for Park" posts he made prior.

Thats why some of these debates drag on and on and on. at this point you think clout was a Park fan, but before that you think he was a Happ fan, and before that you think he was a KK fan.

but in essence, his stance has remained the same from the get go, which i agree with pretty much fully - yet somehow we still end up disagring about it.

- KK still has a good chance to be a effective mlb starter, but needs time in AAA.
- Happ has nothing left to prove in minors, and may be the best fit in the rotiation, but was baet out fair and square so should be in the pen.
- Park was given a fair chance to start and he won it (and for some reason kept giving Bill Conlin all the credit for that prediction). Since he was won the job, he should be giving the ample amount of starts to prove himself as deserving to keep it.

apologies to clout if i misspoke your opinion, but I am prety sure that is where you stand. And if not, that is where i stand on this whole 5th starter, with an admitted bais'd opinion that KK will be effective again, and soon.

also, apologies to everyone who has to read my mispelled bad grammar posts - i officially promise to use the preview button from now.

Looks like bashing a breakfast food has gotten BeerLeaguer off the emotional roller- coaster and back to the normalcy of banter about the minute details of Phan existence.

Way to Go Jason- Eggos as grief therapy!

Alby: Exactly right.

clout: Fine. Throw out 2003 & 2007. Throwing out those years doesn't change the fact that Park's overall 6-year body of work between 2002 & 2007 was among the worst in baseball.

Incidentally, I basically agree with you about Park. He pitched much better last year even in a starting role (small sample size, but still not totally meaningless). He seems to be motivated and healthier than he has been in years. And he pitched great in spring training. That, plus a healthy dosage of Kool Aid, lead me to believe that he has a better than 50-50 chance of being serviceable this year. But if he gets off to a terrible start, he's not going to get more than 3 or 4 starts before he's back to the pen. A long leash is justified only when: (1) the player has a track record of success; or (2) there is no viable alternative. Neither is true in Park's case.

thephaitful: You have it right.

I am simply disagreeing with Tray and BAP and Jack and BedBeard etc. etc. who say that it is "probable" that Park will be a failure as a 5th starter and will be yanked after 3 or 4 starts. I find their reliance on what he did 3 years ago to be unpersuasive.

Clout: You need to make it clear what you're disagreeing with, and what you think SHOULD happen, and what WILL happen. I think Park WILL be a failure, and SHOULD be yanked early. I don't think he WILL be yanked early.

This is what causes so much confusion around here, especially with Clout. It's never clear when someone is saying what should happen, or what will happen (ie, what you would do vs. what the Phillies will actually do). Clout, and others, are almost always ambiguous about this.

FWIW, I find anyone who is relying on Spring Training stats to make a claim about regular season performance to be utterly and completely unconvincing. It has no correlation whatsoever. Never has and never will.

Jack: And yet you also find what he did last year in the regular season unconvincing. Presumably you find his bad years convincing.

Alby, scrapple?

Do you know what SCRAPple is and why they call it that?

They call it SCRAPple because it's what's left over - after they've finished making sausage.

They use offal and other ingredients.

It's ancestor is a German dish called Panhas, and is still called "panhoss" or "pannhas" in parts of Pennsylvania, per Wikipedia.

I've never been able to stand the way it sticks to the roof of my mouth. Yeccch.

AWH-please, no info on Scrapple. It's one of those things that's meant to be enjoyed, not analyzed. ;-)

Jack, you, bap and others are certainly entitled to your opinion, and can jump up and down and post all the "I told you so's" you want if you wind up being right. I just hope you have the humility and class to do the opposite if you are not.

Me, based on his track record, I think they've rolled the dice with Park and it could go either way.

I prefer to give him a chance to pitch, and am rooting for him to pitch well. If he does, the team will be better for it and win maore games.

If he doesn't, I am comfortable in the fact that if he blows up, Happ is a viable 5 spot option who can step in.

Jack, the problem I think so many have with you, bap and others is that you seem to be rooting for Park to fail, just so you can be correct.

That's bad for the team, and could diminish their chances to repeat as WFC.

We should be rooting for every player on the team.

Bedbeard, sorry....didn't mean to gross you out.

For what it's worth, I like liver - all kinds - and I'm sure many here can't stand the sight of it.

Scrapple ( A more favorable view)
1 pound pork pudding meat OR loose sausage
1 quart water, or pork broth
Salt and pepper, to taste
1-1/2 cups cornmeal
1/4 cup buckwheat flour

Butchering yielded rich meat scraps, too flavorful to give to the animals or simply throw away. Scrapple, however, was not invented in Pennsylvania. It most likely came with settlers from the lower Rhine area of Germany to Philadelphia. So it was in this country that the Amish learned to make the dish.

Two ingredients distinguish the dish - buckwheat and corn- meal (a New World addition), which act as extenders and provide a distinctive flavor.

Wow... Daniel Murphy's arm in RF is so weak that the Mets have a designed play on a sac fly where he throws to Reyes standing on the edge of the OF grass who then throws home. Yeah... that'll work!

That isn't the true recipe for scrapple, although it may be the more common approach. I have an old Pennsylvania Dutch (not Amish) recipe and it calls for the use of the meat from a hog's skull, not sausage scraps.

I am absolutely amazed in the selective memory of Park bashers.

We are talking about a guy whose career year (and second best season) tops anything that Hamels, Myers, Moyer or Blanton have achieved on a major league level.

We're also comparing him to a guy who has less than 40 career IP at the major league level...a guy who was unable to earn the job in head-to-head ST competition, and saying that the unproven, inexperienced, late bloomer from AAA should have a job gift wrapped for him.

I truly don't know if it's childlike faith in Happ or a dislike of the new Korean in the clubhouse, but I've never before seen a Phillie that so many fans wish failure upon. Park is a question mark, no doubt, but Happ (who has never achieved what Park has at the ML level) is a bigger question mark.

Bubba, I think you just grossed bedbeard out even more.

Yo, new thread

Mac Tonight:

Um... huh?

Chan Ho Park's career year (133 ERA+) is not as good as Hamels last two seasons (145 and 136).

And how relevant, really, is what a player did in 2000 when there is ample evidence since then of ineffectiveness as a starter?

And, finally... leave the racism out of it. There are plenty of reasons to believe Park is destined to fail that have nothing to do with his nationality.

CJ: I was speaking of strikeouts and wins; you know...stats that determine the outcome of ballgames.

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