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Tuesday, February 17, 2009

Comments

Cervanak-UGH. Should've paid for Wiggington ;-(

Give Moises Alou. I don't care that he can't run or field anymore, I'll wager when he's in the batter's box he can still rake.

Yes, the "versatility" thing is highly overrated.

A suggestion to sidebar stuff. Instead of always looking at Weitzel's playlist on the right; in the name of variety, and maybe more clicks and revenue for Jason, we could rotate the list among the BL phaithful. Jason could email us in private and we can submit 9 CD's and for a week we can see clout's playlist, then MG's, then Carson's, then Andy's, then AWH, and maybe Lake Fred's. I'll get working on my list. If Chris Coste had 9 CD's out, then you could print DaveThom's list! Hah ha!

Fred, LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!

I hope Chris Coste sees some action at third base this spring. He was terrific at 3rd for SWB in 2005.

I suggested More Hardball (http://morehardball.blogspot.com) last week.

Here's a link to the Hottest Fans in the NL East from that blog.

Coste is 36. That's grizzled vet territory. His days of manning third were over three years ago.

Wanted to mention that people using Amazon should always use my links to get there, even if you're not buying those particular items. I get a percentage of whatever you get. It costs you nothing. So if you're in the market for a flatpanel television, think of Beerleaguer.

Back to the last thread where Myers admits his fitness in early 2008:

That is more disgraceful than taking steriods in my opinion. What a little peice of sht!! How are people glad to hear this? Phils sign Brad Lidge and he throws a hissy fit and intentionally sabotages his own team? He doesnt workout and comes in out of shape because his team went out and tried to improve themselves?

Brett Myers, good riddance after 2009. If the Phils didnt make the playoffs in 08 he would have never uttered these words and rightfully so, for he would be boo'd out of town.

How could you want this man on your team? What if we signed Derek Lowe and made him our #2? Is Brett Myers going to pout in the dugout and refuse get ready for his starts?

I always knew he was a complete jackass, but this is just on another level. To intentionally not prepare yourself because your team tried to improve itself is the one of the most pathetic, lowlife things I've ever heard from a MLB player. This is why having gauranteed contracts is bullsht. I hope his last pitch for the phils in 2009 blows out his entire arm for the rest of his life.

Intentionally sabotage? Wouldn't that be throwing games? Lots of players don't work out all that great during the offseason..

phaitful - That is a just a little over the top but I know what you mean though about Myers. He is arguably one guy on this team that I have a hard time rooting for because of some of his past actions on and off the field.

I might be overreacting, as I have not heard the interview yet, but just the notion that he was frustrated that he was moved from closer to starter, and in turn, chose not to prepare himself as a starter in 2008, which directly led to many losses for the ballclub.

And makes perfet sense with what happened.

Acted like a little baby, didnt prepare properly for starts, and got shelled. Goes to the minors, stops being a baby, and pitches very effectively.

I'd take someone who may cross the line in making themselves a better player, over a player who intentionally puts in less effort over personal reasons which makes himself a worse player.

jason: Excellent topic. I've been saying since spring training 2008 that, since the utility man's main day-to-day job is to pinch hit, the Phillies would be best served by finding someone who can hit, even if it meant having no true backup at 1 or 2 infield positions. If push came to shove, Pedro Feliz could play SS for a game or two, and Dobbs could even play 2nd. I dislike the idea of wasting a valuable roster spot (let alone possibly two of them) on guys like Bruntlett who can't hit at all. And I dislike it even more on a team that doesn't have a single decent right-handed bat on its bench.

From MLBTR-
Todd Zolecki of MLB.com says things are quiet on the free agent front for the Phillies. GM Ruben Amaro Jr. said the team's not in on lefty relievers Will Ohman or Joe Beimel, and indicated that signing one of them is a long shot.

Zolecki also finds a Nomar Garciaparra signing unlikely. Nomar still hasn't decided whether to play in '09.

I don't agree with what Myers did, but I kind of understand where he was coming from. He did very well as a closer, a role he really enjoyed, and was replaced, and the man replacing him at the time was no more of a sure thing than he was. Watching the interview, it is clear that Myers liked the mentality of a closer. He didn't have to really have to have a strategy, he could just throw hard on the outside of the plate. Listening to him in the interview, it really seemed like he thought he had found his calling and had trouble being replaced. So while I'm disappointed he didn't come into the season in the right shape, I'm not really angry about it, and I don't charge Myers with sabotaging the team.

This is very likely to be Myers final season with the Phils.
Being that its a contract year, Myers is likely to have a good season. And #2/3 starters aren't easy to find.
But because of all the baggage that goes with Myers, I doubt that there will be much of a clammering from the fans to retain him.

Jason: Wow that's impressive you get a cut off of amazon just because we go through your site. I'll try to help you out, I use amazon fairly often.

Does that mean if I create some awful site and get an amazon link on it that I can get some money back just by going through my own site?

I know I'm cheap.....

Anyway is it possible for you to post an Amazon link other than your playlist? Like a bar that says Amazon that I could click on to get to their home page and put it at the top/bottom of your playlist on the right. Sorry, I made that confusing.

I had somewhat of a similar reaction as TI - albeit more muted and cynical - to the news that Myers lost 30 lbs. I know it's baseball and all, but how does a guy making $12mm to play baseball let himself get that overweight?

As for this season, the lack of a right handed bat on the bench is a glaring problem. I assume Amaro plans to pick someone up late in March but, I at least thought Manuel might have the option of making Dobbs more of a regular and using Feliz as a RHB off the bench. Now, that doesnt' look like a viable option to start the season.

I mustn't be looking in the right place...where's this Amazon search thing?

I get the impression Amaro wears a belt and suspenders.

****Does that mean if I create some awful site and get an amazon link on it that I can get some money back just by going through my own site?****

Its kinda against the rules to deliberately click on your own site like that.

The important thing with Myers is that he's in shape now...he so sabotaged our season that it took us 5 games to beat the Rays for the WS...that bastard!

From the last thread... Why did Feliz have his surgery almost 3 weeks after the season? Move up the surgery, more time to mend. Maybe he had to wait to get an appointment (like the rest of us).

Re: Myers

I'm not sure it's as clear cut as some are making it out to be. I doubt he was told he was moving back to the rotation and thought, "Well, screw em... I'm going to get fat and lazy and not prepare."

I'm guessing it was a little more complex than that. Players allow outside things to affect their preparation all the time. It may not have been something that was as conscious as people suggest.

Nonetheless, I respect him for recognizing what went wrong last year and doing it different this year.

He probably had to wait for an appointment and/or get a 2nd opinion. When you have that type of back surgery you are also pretty much required to get a current MRI right before hand. Its also possible that they wanted his back to rest for a couple weeks to allow any secondary inflammation to go down.

I have a very similar back injury/history as Pedro so that's my guestimate on what happened.

Here comes the return of the Feliz surgery conspiracy!

The Kid is coming to Atlanta.

Braves expected to sign Griffey Jr. today and he'll platoon with Matt Diaz.

Good signing for the Braves....they'll probably get their money's worth out of Griffey.

I think that the overall refusal of clubs to consider older players is getting a tad ridiculous at this point.

Phaithful, I thought the same thing when I read Myers' comments. What a dirt bag! No wonder he and Eaton got sent down. They're both brothers by different mothers, but Myers is a better pitcher.

I had the very same reaction to the Myers interview. The guy is making obscene amounts of money -- more money this year than most of us will see in our lifetimes. All he's asked to do is pitch a baseball as well as he is capable, and he'll never have to have a real job his entire life. Instead, he (a) gets fat, thereby impeding his ability to pitch to his full potential, (b) refuses to adjust to his role on the team, i.e., refuses to be a team player, and (c) tells us that when he said he was fine with his role change last year, he was actually lying. Is he telling the truth now?

This guy is a head case from the word go. And to suggest that he's not replaceable is just plain wrong. They can certainly go pay $10-12 million next year for a #2-3 guy to pitch for a winning franchise. It's not even like the guy has ever put up a full season of pitching that would ever earn him more than a B+, and most of his career has been less than that. He's a head case and always will be.

JAS: I wouldn't go that far. In 2005 and 2006, Myers put up ERA+'s of 118 and 120. He also boosted his K/9 to 8.69 and 8.59 and had K/BB ratios of 3 both seasons. Those are two very good seasons, ceratinly worthy of a No. 2 starter, IMO.

Frankly, at the age of 26, he was primed to move into another level of starter, IMO. Then the bullpen experiment came. It stunted his progress and messed with his already fragile head.

Really like Griffey signing as the Braves and they desperately needed some power in their OF.

If he is willing to accept being strictly a platoon player, then he will have some real value against RHP.

My bet is that Griffey does really help the Braves when he is on the field but he like fine china at this point. It is inevitable that he gets injured at some point and spends at least one extended trip on the DL.

Still, unless Griffey and Jones can stay on the field for most of the year though the Braves likely won't be able to score enough (say slightly north of 800 runs) to take the NL East.

@JAS -- I'm not so sure Myers can be easily replaced in the Free Agent market next year.

More than likely the Phillies are hoping that Hamels/Moyer/Blanton will be joined by Carrasco/Kendrick/Happ/Other Prospect in 2010. If not one of those, they will probably take one of those 1 year flyer deals on a guy who's more like a 3/4 than a 2/3, but he used to be a 2/3 so people will think he can replace Myers.

But that's just a guess.

I'm disappointed that Myers had that attitude, but I'm more encouraged that he accepted that he was wrong about his abilities as a closer (he recognized that Lidge was significantly better) and that his contributions as a starter were more important ("we would have clinched the pennant a week or two earlier") if he had the right attitude to start.

I'll worry about 2010 after the second ring.

Since we'll likely have 2 openings in our rotation going into 2010 (with Moyer turning 47 that year), Myers might be kept around.

Casey Smith? Now there's a name I haven't heard in awhile! He had a great spring training last year but he fell off the map in AAA, hitting .170/.213/.223 in 96 games for the Iron Pigs. Ugh, luckily I think that the Iron Pigs will be much better this year.

FoxSports have posted their initial MLB Power Rankings and the Phils are no. 3, behind the Yankees and Rays. 4, 5, 6, 7 and 8 are Red Sox, Mets, Cubs, Angels and Braves! Three of the Top 8 in the NL East! I think they've ranked Atlanta too high.

Myers is a crumb. But he's our crumb. I think the Phillies are way ahead of most of baseball in this regard. They seem to be a pretty good group of guys. I know we can't be sure of all of that, but that's how they come off. I like that this is a team that is easy to root for. I will root for them anyway because I love the Phillies first and foremost but it's easier with a good group. If I had to root for the Mets it would be like walking around wearing burlap underwear. Very uncomfortable.

BTW: Myers does seem to be exactly the type of guy to be extremely motivated by his contract year. Not much of a teammate obviously. It's not hard to figure out what his motivation would be. Bet he has a big year. And I wouldn't be surprised if the Phils cut ties with him regardless. I always got the feeling that the organization really resented his attitude last year. Particularly him popping off in Pittsbugh when Charlie took him out after he came back from the minors. I got the idea that that really pissed them off. They had pretty much stood by him throug a lot of crap and that looked very unappreciative.

Myers in 2009: 23-5, 2.24 ERA


~kidding~

donc - Good point. One of Cholly's greatest strengths has been able to keep players in the fold even after there are some notable outburst on the field.

Granted this isn't a team full of difficult personas but I do think there are a couple of guys on this team including Myers and Vic who can be pretty prickly to deal with at times. Coupled without a real vocal veteran leadership, it could be more of an issue. Cholly just does a great job of keeping negative things from lingering and festering.

MG: Good point about Vic. I think he's another of the good guys but it appeared that Charlie needed to knock him down a peg or two at times. Apparently he played it perfectly because he looks like one of those guys who is well on his way to realizing his considerable ability. I look for a big year from Vic too. I think he's often overlooked.

Myers won't win 15 games again this and my bet is his ERA is north of 4.00.

Still, I bet he is generally a bit more consistent this season and finishes with some respectable numbers (10-11 wins, 4.25 ERA) and very close/slightly over 200 innings. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if Blanton actually ends up with very similiar stats or marginally better than Myers.

Myers won't win 15 games again this and my bet is his ERA is north of 4.00.

Still, I bet he is generally a bit more consistent this season and finishes with some respectable numbers (10-11 wins, 4.25 ERA) and very close/slightly over 200 innings. In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if Blanton actually ends up with very similiar stats or marginally better than Myers.

I will be extremely disappointed if Myers doesn't win at least 14 games if he stays healthy. I do worry about his arm due to the whole starter/reliever/starter cycle he's been through. I look for Myers and Hamels to combine for nearly 35 wins if they both can go the whole season. Hey it's spring training and time for optimism.

"I got the idea that that really pissed them off."

I don't remember seeing or hearing anything that would've indicated that. And really I'd be pretty disappointed in the organization if they chose not to resign Myers because of a grudge.

I do remember the dazed expression Myers carried with him in the weeks leading up to his demotion--the look of a person who felt lost. And I remember his contrition and cooperativeness afterward. I also take his performance in August and September as an indication that truly learned some things--about his game and about himself. All of which leads me to believe that no one felt worse about Myers's failures than Myers.

Also, what CJ said. There's a significant difference between a) deciding to deliberately sabotage the team and b) allowing circumstances to undermine your motivation. B) evidences weakness, but not malice.

Klaus:I remember after the Pittsburgh game that I'm talking about when he and Charlie had words on the mound and in the dugout there were "reports" that the FO was none too happy about the whole thing. I specifically remember Seth Everett reporting it on DNL. How accurate it was I can't say but it does remind me of the Burrell situation. Remember it was reported after the WS that they were never too happy with him because of an alleged refusal to do public appearances. Many theorize that this had a lot to do with the Phils lack of interest in re-signing him. That seems pretty minor considering Pat never got into any trouble and almost completely avoided controversy. He certainly never slapped his wife around on a busy street corner. In the end I can't know what the FO is thinking. This is just a theory. Hey if the guy lights it up this year, it could all be a moot point. They probably will want to re-sign him. If he pitches only pretty well, what I'm talking about could be a deciding factor.

I have no desire to defend Myers. I think he is generally a headcase and a POS.
That said, I find it ironic when people use the rationale that it's inexcusable for players to not be absolutely committed "considering they make $X million a year to play baseball". It's especially funny when you think about the common critism of players being greedy and "only caring about money". So which is it? Should money be what drives them or not?
The bottom line is that the players are still human. Money can't buy work ethic. I wonder if hungry people in 3rd world countries exasperatedly say things like, "how can that guy spend company time on Beerleaguer when he's getting paid tens of thousands of dollars a year to just sit at a desk and do an easy computer job!!!" I bet they do. Anyway, that's my social commentary for the day.

Re: Myers

I'm not sure it's as clear cut as some are making it out to be. I doubt he was told he was moving back to the rotation and thought, "Well, screw em... I'm going to get fat and lazy and not prepare."


CJ: Thats exactly what happened.

Myers found out he wouldnt be closing, cried in his beer, struck his wife, stuffed food in his mouth like a depressed housewife and decided not to work towards being a starter anymore. Then anxiously awaited for Lidge to struggle as a closer while he stunk as a starter and make comments about how he can't adjust mentally so they'd give him the closers role again.

Thankfully Lidge was the man and Myers was sent to the minors to straighten up.

I'm still going to root for Myers to have a great 2009 as long as he stays in a Phils uniform, but for anyone who says they respect him for coming out about the motivation of his actions last year is looney or doesn't put much thought into the idea of respect.


MG: Myers had ERA's of 3.72 and 3.91 in 2005 and 2006. I'm curious why you don't believe he can approach that this year?

Something just reminded me about something else I read in Bill James' book... it was managerial stats.

Charlie Manuel used the fewest lineups in baseball the past two years... and also had a horrible rate of intentional walks backfiring... if I remember correctly.

Klaus: Agreed that circumstances can affect your motivation, for the better or worse.

I am arguing that the circumstance that the Phillies improved their team by moving him to starter and lidge to closer should be a circumstance where Myers should have reacted negatively.

If they got Lidge and made him a 7th inning guy, I could understand. If went out and traded for all new pitchers and sent him to AAA, then I could understand. But to move him into the #2 spot in the rotation? I just take a lot of offense that someone could be that much of a pansy to really pout about a move like that, and ontop of that, let it affect his preparation and performance.

I am not one to defend Myers for the most part either. But to be fair, I do think he showed a little grit when he came back up. That first start back he looked like he was about to hyper-ventilate. The pressure he was under (at Shea if I'm not mistaken) had to be immense and he survived that night and went on to flourish. I'm not wild about the way he is wired but that did show me something.

Boy there is a shortage of topics this spring training. Paul Hagen's article was nothing short of moronic. Yes I certainly think now is the time to start stressing about the state of the Phils payroll after the 2011 season. Stupid Charlie Brown looking m'fer.

"I just take a lot of offense that someone could be that much of a pansy to really pout about a move like that, and ontop of that, let it affect his preparation and performance."

I agree, it's nothing to applaud. But if Myers, fragile as he is, couldn't help letting it affect his preparation, then he warrants not rancor but pity, to my mind.

But then I've always been Soft on Myers (tm).

"there were "reports" that the FO was none too happy about the whole thing"

Well, I'm in no position to assert otherwise. All I can say is, that refusing to sign a player because he stormed off a mound is not unlike storming off a mound--both acts exhibit a lack a maturity. Although the former is worse, surely, since at least in that case, you've had time to think.

Also, there's no honor in refusing Myers a contract because three (?) years ago he beat his wife. The Phillies had no scruples playing him in the meantime.

CJ wrote- "Charlie Manuel used the fewest lineups in baseball the past two years... and also had a horrible rate of intentional walks backfiring... if I remember correctly."

I always wondered if there was a stat for this (intentional walks backfiring). Manuel has become a better manager overall, but when it enrages me when he doles the automatic four because it doesn't work.

All I know is, the starters need to play really well in the early going this season. Myers needs to be sharp, Howard can't slump so much, and they need their wins to be big wins. Otherwise, it really looks like the lack of lefty relievers and a righty bat off the bench will repeatedly kill this team in close games early on.

Once Romero and Feliz are back it won't be quite so bad, and maybe they'll have the flexibility to get someone on the bench who can hit then, but geez we could see some serious problems in April and May.

I think these things are all what you would call mitigating circumstances, Klaus. In the absence of a clear cut desire to either keep Myers or let him walk, I think these incidents could be the deciding factor. It could end up being a case of "he's just not worth the trouble". Like I said before, if he goes out and wins 16 or 17 ballgames they will surely want him back. Believe me, I think he's gonna have a big year and I hope he does. Just cause I don't like him doesn't mean I won't root for him. Right or wrong I can only root for the bloodstripes.

Myers is the pretty much your classic meathead (or pretty darn close to it). That would be fine but he always seem to find a way every season to either be a distraction on and/or off the field through poor choices of words, deeds, or work ethic at least once or twice.

I admit I do dislike Myers but it doesn't mean I root for him to fail or for unfortunate things to happen to him. Nor do I have anything against him for making a decent buck.

GM-Carson: In Bill James' new abstract, they have these stats for managers that go back a couple of years. It's new... but something they're trying to track. Very interesting stuff.

To be sure, Myers is a headcase. How many well adjusted guys beat their wives? But apart from that,his major league record is an underwhelming 69-60,and you have to go back three years to find his last winning season. If it were not for the sad fact that Adam Eaton is still on the payroll, Myers would hands down be the most overpaid Phil. For what he will demand in 2010, they sure can get a far better starting pitcher than this guy.

"Charlie Manuel used the fewest lineups in baseball the past two years... and also had a horrible rate of intentional walks backfiring... if I remember correctly."

Neither really would surprise me much. Cholly maybe be a good guy in the clubhouse but he still doesn't wow me as a tactician. He definitely is a creature of routine and is pretty reluctant to change things even if it is evidently clear what is doing isn't working so well.

Still, Cholly doesn't make many obvious gaffes anymore like he did managing his first year with the Phils including flubbing the double switch by burning a player needlessly.

Klaus, good points about honor and maturity.


Do not construe this post as an excuse for Myers' behavior, but no one on this earth is without fault.

The bottom line is that if we live in a society where those who "sin" are to be allowed cointrite repentance and be extended forgiveness, and if this is true of reformed bank robbers, murderers and thieves, then the same standard ought to be applied to Myers.

He f'd up i Boston, and according to the courts has paid his dues. He seems to be genuinely contrite and sorry about it, and also seems to be 'maturing' (as opposed to being fully mature)
.
.
Now, I ask you to contrast Myers mannerisms during his interview with Gudell to the interview the disingenuous, steroid-using, buck-passing liar gave this afternoon in Florida.

He truly is A-Fraud.

There is no reason to believe him at all. He ansered no questions and simply raised more of them.

He insulted the intellligence of every reporter in the room, and of the fans who were listening.

There is no reason to believe he is not using banned substances right now.

With the steroid use on the late '90s Yankee teams now coming to light - Clemens, Pettite, Knoblauch - it stands to reason, especially if Camaniti and A-Fraud himself are to be believed, that there were probably others.

Since then, other Yankees have been linked to PEDs.

Contrast this:

The 2008 Philadelphia Phillies:

World Series Champions!!!
.
.
The 1998-2000 New York Yankees:

World Steroid Champions.

Rant over.

"For what he will demand in 2010, they sure can get a far better starting pitcher than this guy.

Posted by: Hitman"

OK, Hitman. Since you said so, please identify the starting pitcher who, either will be a free agent after 2009, or will be available through a trade, who, for the money Myers is making, accurately fits your description of "far better starting pitcher"?

I'd like to suggest, once more, PhilliePhanatics.org Here's a guide to spring training, in Clearwater, from the site:

http://shayroddy.wordpress.com/2009/02/17/the-fans-guide-to-visiting-spring-training/

I agree with AWH. If Myers has a productive season, as I think he will, he will most likely be one of the premier pitchers on the free agent market. And AWH, I didn't yet see or hear any of the A-Roid press conference. Sounds like he didn't disappoint those that figured he would disappoint. What a turd. Loved the rant though.

While we're tossing Brett Myers under the bus... let's remember that in 2007, Myers took on the role of closer with absolutely no experience in that role. It was a key part of the team that could seemingly not be filled by any other player.

All he did was save 21 of 24 with 5 wins from May 3rd on with a 3.20 ERA. He was a workhorse down the stretch appearing in 18 of our last 31 games and four of our last five games. He was on the mound when we clinched the division on the last day of the season.

Okay... you may all now go back to hating on Brett Myers.

Make a list of better pitchers than Myers who may be available next year? Who knows who may be available. Maybe we can start with Jake Peavy? Anyhow, how hard is it to find a pitcher with a better winning percentage than .535? AWH,you have to be kidding that we have no choice but to throw money at this clown because we can't find another, less expensive .500 pitcher. Unless Myers has a big year, there is little chance he will be pitching in Philly next year.

Myers didn't do anything to me other than help the Phillies win a world championship. He's ok in my book.

John Lackey is available in the 2010 season...that's about it though.

Or did he sign an extension?

Hitman: You know better than to base a pitchers success off his win percentage.

LF - Not sure anyone would be interested in my playlist; if there's somewhere where my age shows up most clearly...

I agree on the versatility thing. That Cairo stands a better chance of making the roster (slim) than a RH bat like Cervanek (none) kinda indicates why the bottom of the line-up is a deep trench whenever one of the main guys sits for a game or two (or 15). In our dreams, I presume, we might imagine someone like Garciaparra, who is RH, has a bit of actual pop (unlike Feliz who has rumored "pop") who can field enough positions to make Chollie's short list. But there is no one. I agree with whomever posted above: we shoulda shown Wiggy the money.

I'm hoping that Myers can be better, over a full season as a starter, than he's ever been. He knows he's gonna start. And he certainly seemed, after his semi-voluntary MiLB stint, that he discovered himself.
(Who knows, maybe his 3 hit performance against LAD has also inspired him to be a hitter, too.)
(That parenthetic statement shows how much kool-aid went into my "hope" about his pitching.)

Hitman: You're not honestly judging a player based on win percentage, are you? Using that criteria, Jamie Moyer was a better pitcher than Cole Hamels last year.

And you're the one who made the bold proclamation that any number of pitchers would be availabe to replace Myers. It'd be nice to be able to back that up with a few facts...

MLBTR has a preliminary list of 2010 FAs. I have not looked at it though. I will now, however, to see if there are any pitchers on it.

If the Phils are not happy with Myers, they could send him to Seattle along with Pete Feliz and some dudes for Beltre and Bedard. I don't know if Bedard will be as good as Myers in the long run, but Beltre would certainly be an improvement over, um...you know.

Most people in here today are drinking the "hater-aid" not the kool-aid when it comes to brett myers.

The list of 2010 free agents can be found here. The list of starting pitchers is not pretty. Lots of old ones. Lots of injured ones.

2010m Starting pitcher FAs (as per MLBTR)
Brandon Backe (32)
Danys Baez (32)
Miguel Batista (39)
Josh Beckett (30) - $12MM club option with a $2MM buyout
Erik Bedard (31)
Daniel Cabrera (29)
Chris Capuano (31)
Bartolo Colon (37)
Jose Contreras (38)
Doug Davis (34)
Justin Duchscherer (32)
Adam Eaton (32) - $9MM mutual option with a $500K buyout
Shawn Estes (37)
Josh Fogg (33)
Freddy Garcia (34)
Jon Garland (30) - $10MM mutual option with $2.5MM or $1MM buyout
Mike Hampton (37)
Rich Harden (28)
Mark Hendrickson (36)
Livan Hernandez (35)
Tim Hudson (34) - $12MM mutual option with a $1MM buyout
Jason Jennings (31)
Jason Johnson (36)
Randy Johnson (46)
John Lackey (31)
Cliff Lee (31) - $8MM club option with a $1MM buyout
Braden Looper (35) - option
Jason Marquis (31)
Kevin Millwood (35) - Rangers can decline $12MM salary for '10 unless he reaches 180 innings in '09
Brian Moehler (38) - mutual option
Brett Myers (29)
Vicente Padilla (32) - $12MM club option with a $1.75MM buyout
Chan Ho Park (37)
John Parrish (32)
Carl Pavano (34)
Brad Penny (32)
Odalis Perez (33)
Andy Pettitte (38)
Joel Pineiro (31)
Mark Prior (28)
Horacio Ramirez (30)
Jason Schmidt (37)
John Smoltz (43)
Tim Wakefield (43) - perpetual $4MM club option
Jarrod Washburn (35)
Brandon Webb (31) - $8.5MM club option with a $500K+ buyout
Todd Wellemeyer (31)
Randy Wolf (33)

Isn't Rich Harden a 2010 free agent? Who would you rather have pitching for the Phils, Myers or Harden?

Andy, the "aged" music is better than the crap being played now. All good rock music is now only played by guys wearing cowboy hats, played on country music stations; stations I wouldn't be caught dead listening to back in the day.

I have about two thirds of my nine CD list formed in my head. I'll probably come up with twelve to fifteen, have a big cut day, then fire the list off to BL Grandmaster Jason.

On Myers, I think he'll be on his best behavior and performance this year. I think, he and Blanton will have a friendly rivalry to see who does better.

Bunch of Phils' starters on that list past and present including Wolf, Padilla, Millwood, Garcia, Myers, and Park.

That really is a thin list especially if a few options likely get picked up including Beckett. Likely Myers get paid out of the lack of sheer alternatives besides Lackey but I would not want him resigned to a 4 or 5 year deal. Too many miles on his arm already and a questionable work ethic over the long term.

Hitman: Harden is an immensely talented picture who has thrown more than 150 innings just once in his 6 year career. Myers has done is 4 out of the last 5 years, all except his closer season. As a full-time starter, Myers has never failed to start 30 games in a season. Rich Harden has done that once.

Harden is a better pitcher than Myers. There is no doubt. But he's also very fragile. If he's the best you got, there doesn't seem to be "any number" of pitchers as you suggested.

Best guys on the list (except for the oft-injured Harden) are all club option guys(Webb, Lee, Beckett). They will not be available.

There are a lot of names on that list that I'd prefer not to see on the back of a red pinstripe jersey. A lot.

CJ: You take Hitman to task for judging/downgrading Brett Myers based on his winning percentage... You spent most of yesterday afternoon doing the same thing when evaluating/praising Kyle Kendrick.
If your going to use an argument to make a point when its convenient for your purposes, you have to let the other guy use the same argument to prove his point. No?

Hitman, take that list of pitchers and reduce it to the ones who you think are a ""far better starting pitcher"" [your words, not mine] ""For what he will demand in 2010"" [again, your words, not mine].
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"Far better" at the same or less cost.
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Oh, BTW, if one of them has to be acquired through a trade - you used Jake Peavy as an example - please indicate what you think it will cost in talent given up to acquire said pitcher. Remember, a trade costs both talent and money.

If the player you list is to be acquired via free agency, please indicate how much you think that "far better starting pitcher" will cost. And remember, it cant be more than Myers.
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Oh, and Hitman, I never said the Phillies had "no choice but to throw money at this clown".

I'm merely challenging your confident assertion.

Now, don't obfuscate or avoid the question.

Just answer it.

mikes77phillies: While mentioning Kyle's win-loss record, I, in no way, suggested that's *why* Kendrick should be given a chance. It's his ERA over his first 43 starts that suggests his way of pitching is not doomed to failure.

Hitman, I'll give you Harden, he might be the best SP in MLB when healthy, but I'll wager that for that reason he'll cost mare than what Myers will demand.
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You see, you have a two part question: It's not just talent, but cost.

Lackey will be a FA. Do you really think he'll be less expensive than Myers?

Peavy, who will also cost you talent, and A LOT of it, is slated to be paid thus:

'10:$15M, '11:$16M, '12:$17M, '13:$22M club option ($4M buyout)

Do you think that will be less than Myers?


Please let us all know who the gems on your list are, as we're interested in seeing who "any number" of "far better starting pitchers" are.

The implicit argument on belalf of the Myers fan club is that the Phils will be unable to replace him at a comparable cost. I totally disagree. It is not possible to say who will be available next year other than the free agents. For any number of reasons, good pitchers become available. It is pretty sophmoric to challenge me to "name them," as though my inability to foresee the future invalidates my basic point that Myer is highly paid and to date has been inconsistent. Yes, a pitcher's W-L record doesn't tell the whole story, but it isn't irrelevant either when it is based on a seven year career. If Myers pitched for the Nationals, I would tend to discount his W-L record, but to date, he is a vastly overpaid pitcher with a mediocre record, and none of the polemics from the pro-Myers crowd can change those facts. As for forgiveness, if you choose to forgive a wife-beating lowlife, then forgive away to your heart's content.

Rich Harden's is a beautiful pitcher. Just...oh my god.

Disclaimer: I just ate a truckload of Indian food.

Myer's will be brought back if he's reasonably priced. Honestly, we're gonna need to replace Moyer most likely and we don't want 2 young guys in the rotation...if Myers leaves and we just let him walk without a legit replacement we end up with a rotation as follows:

Hamels
Blanton
Happ
Carrasco
Kendrick

Moyer probably won't be a legit option in 2010 and Drabek likely won't be ready yet. So we almost HAVE to bring him back...or someone of comparable value.

I dont get the venom directed towards Myers here...his resurgence in the 2nd half was key in us winning a World Series.

AWH: Arod cheated the game to become a better player. Myers cheated himself and his team by giving up on trying to become a starting pitcher.

Both are scumbuags for it, but at least Arod tried to better himself.

Give me a guy who'd cheat to get better over a guy who'd cheat his own team because he didnt get the position he wanted.

****As for forgiveness, if you choose to forgive a wife-beating lowlife, then forgive away to your heart's content.****

Cobb hated almost everyone on the diamond
Rogers Hornsby was a member of the KKK
Jimmie Foxx was an alcoholic
Ruth was a drunk and a womanizer
Mantle was a drunk
Paul Moliter and Tim Raines were cokeheads
etc etc etc


They're baseball players, not saints.

Rays manager Joe Maddon says that while Burrell will mainly be the DH, he is a FINE outfielder.

I do not know or care about Brett Myers the person, I know and care about Brett Myers the starting pitcher.

I do not judge him by what he did to his wife. I judge him on his admitted, pathetic lack of effort that he gives to his profession when he doesnt get everything his way.

Ill root for him to have a great 2009, and hope everyone realizes that he would NEVER admit to the BS he pulled in 2008 if they didnt make the playoffs last year, just like arod would never admit to it unless his name got leaked.

Who freaking cares? He's in shape now and he helped us win a World Series. Its not like it ended our season..get over it.

Exactly NEPP, we're WFC so its just fine that he gave up on the team for half the season on purpose.

Isn't that what you always joke about to discount other people? "So Taguchi is why we won the WFC".

I am over it, i already said i'll be a brett myers fan in 09. But to give him a pass just because we won the WFC is absurd.

Yeah, what he did was wrong but he realized it and came into camp in great shape this year. What else do you want from the guy?

Since we are on the topic, the Phils likely will likely need at least 2 internal candidates in the rotation for 2010.

Likely Myers won't be resigned because he will likely want at least 4 years and probably command a figure the Phils are unwilling to invest in a FA starting pitcher. There are two wildcards with him - current economic environment is likely terrible next offseason and it remains to be seen if a team will invest more than 3 years.

Still, given his age and that he is likely to be one of the 3 or 4 best FA starting pitchers available (because the class largely stinks), I bet he gets the 4 years.

Also don't forget that incentives this year will push Moyer's deal next possibly to the $8.5-$9M range if he starts 30 G and pitchers 180 IP. Don't know if he is an albatross like Eaton but hard to imagine that Moyer will be very productive in another year.

If the Phils' figure Hamels and Blanton are the only real "solid" things for 2010, I imagine they are hoping that Happ/Kendrick can at least turn into a back-end rotation guy this year while keeping close tabs on Carrasco and several others.

You never know...this time last year, absolutely no one thought Howard would sign a 3 year deal. Myers might very well be back.

Odds are the rotation will be a bit thinner in 2010 barring a surprise.

The Bluejays are rumored to being making Halladay available...being that he's one of the top pitchers in the game (top 5 easily), what would you give up for him in a trade this season or next off-season?

Imagine that rotation....Hamels, Halladay, etc

I know others are disappointed that Amaro isn't going to get a RH-bat but I am actually more disappointed that they won't pick up another veteran arm for the pen. Likely will be able to pick up some who would help them out for the veteran league minimum ($475k).

This paid real dividends last year with Seanez rounding out the last spot in the pen. In fact, dollar for dollar it might have been the Phils best FA move last year (which isn't saying alot because they mostly were adequate at best).

If Park opens the season in the rotation (and I still think he will as long as he doesn't stink up the place), that leaves 2 openings in the pen.

Call me crazy but a middle relief with XX, XX, Condrey, Durbin, and Eyre looks pretty mediocre to me for the first 2 months of the season. That is assuming too that no one goes down either with an injury.

Anyone have an idea of who is likely to round out the bullpen at Allentown this year?

"It is pretty sophmoric to challenge me to "name them," as though my inability to foresee the future invalidates my basic point that Myer is highly paid and to date has been inconsistent."
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Hitman, just got back from dinner and read the ridiclulous statement I quote above.

Now you are being downright dishonest.

Do you even care about your own credibility?

If you had made the basic point that "Myer is highly paid and to date has been inconsistent" then almost nobody, myself included, would have taken issue with you.

But that's not what you posted.

What you did write was:

"For what he will demand in 2010, they sure can get a far better starting pitcher than this guy."

You wrote it, no one else did.

That is what I and others are taking issue.

We are not challenging your opinion of Myers behavior, and not what you think of him personally. That's your opinion and you are entitled to it.

However, which is more "sophmoric" - asking another poster to back up an assertion with some facts, or engaging in diversionary tactics and deceit when your assertion is challenged?
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Now, either 1)take responsibility for your assertion by backing up what you say with facts, 2) admit you shot from the hip and were incorrect, or 3) continue to obfuscate and engage it deceit thereby compromising your own credibility.
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It's your choice.

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