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Monday, February 02, 2009


MPN: "Yes, but when he (Abreu) was here he was seen as a/the leading man."

That's news to Pat Burrell and everyone watching the Phillies. I can think of reasons to criticize Abreu or be glad he's gone, but that shouldn't be on anyone's list.

clout: Maybe you didn't consider Abreu "The Man," but to many, he was the best player on the team and thus thought to be the team leader. I don't believe that was ever the case in the locker room (actually, I have no idea), but to many fans, the perception was that Abreu was the team leader. That's a common assumption of the team's best players.

I'm with whoever said he preferred the Mets get Perez instead of Sheets. Ollie is inconsistent and still far from mastering command.

Nevertheless, a rotation of Santana, Perez, Pelfrey, Maine and Redding isn't too shabby, particualrly with K-Rod and Putz added to the pen.

clout: Considering there was talk of a Mets rotation that looked like this: Santana, Sheets, Pelfrey, Garland/Wolf, Maine... I'm very happy if it ends up being Santana, Perez, Pelfrey, Maine, Redding.

That means the only "upgrade" was Redding for Pedro. It could have been much worse for us!

clout: Check that... the talk was:

Santana, Lowe, Pelfrey, Garland/Wolf, Redding.

Many a poster on here said Lowe to the Mets was a done deal. Ollie Perez is NO Derek Lowe!

CJ: Um, I was around then, read the papers, watched TV news. Abreu was NEVER considered the team leader. Burrell was, Thome was, but Abreu, no.

Back when Bobby Abreu was the Phillies lone all-star and #3 hitter, he was THE MAN. Come on Clout- your memory is painfully selective.

CJ: On the rotation, agreed.

Come on Clout- Burrell was terrible back then. He was booed mercilessly everytime he came to bat.

clout: I'm not saying the team or the media felt Abreu was the leader... just that many fans who considered him the best player on the team thought he should have been the leader. I'm talking only about perception here.

Why don't you talk about the Garcia trade? That was clearly the worst deal they made in the last decade. If we hadn't made that deal, Gavin Floyd would be our #2 and Gonzalez would compete for #5. Both make the league minimum, and we wasted 10 mil on Garcia.

Ollie scares the Phils, but nobody else.

Cj: just to let you know the best player isn't always the leader. You don't announce your the leader. Its like mcnabb how he thinks he is the leader when in reality it is dawkins, runyan and tra thomas.

baxter: "Come on Clout- Burrell was terrible back then."

Burrell first 3 seasons OPS+: 106, 110, 146.

There is opinion and then there are facts.

Between Perez and Redding, they'd KILL us in a 3 game series.

mvptommyd: If you don't think McNabb is the offensive leader on the Eagles... you have no idea what you're talking about.

Besides, I didn't say the best player on a team IS the leader... I said many fans assume the best player on the team SHOULD be the leader.

Case in point, Craig MacTavish was the leader on the Flyers in the 95/96 season...despite Lindros wearing the C.

Ollie only really pitched well against the Phils last year. Otherwise his career numbers are much more mixed.

I am really glad the Mets didn't get that Legit No. 2 in a guy like Lowe. Only good thing for the Mets in resigning Perez is that is price tag probably came down a bit. May a 3 yr/$27-$30M deal instead instead of something like 3 yr/$36M at the start of the offseason.

Frankly I don't see how the Mets rotation is improved. Santana can't pitch much better and unless Pelfrey takes a big step forward they aren't going to be much better than last year.

The real key for the Mets' rotation (and arguably their season) is Maine. If he can give them 30 starts this year, they will have a pretty decent rotation again. Basically Mets will have 4 starters who are capable of being above average. I don't think you can say the same about the Phils although the rotations are pretty evenly matched.

If he is mired with injuries and not able to give them the 30 starts or 180+ innings, they are going to struggle to find starters to fill out the back of the rotation just like they did when Maine when down. Losing Wagner was huge for the Mets last year but losing Maine was also huge because his replacements (Figueroa, Vargas, Niese, Knight) weren't the same caliber.

One thing I am looking forward to - the real prospect of booing Garcia in a Mets' uniform at CBP. Somehow even though I only went ten Phil's games at CBP and on the road in 2007, I saw Garcia pitch in 3 of them and all of them were losses.

MG: How can you say the Phils don't have four starters capable of being above average. Hamels, Myers, Moyer and Blanton have all already had seasons that were above average. Only Myers was below a 100 ERA+ last year. And it's the Mets Mike Pelfrey with the worst career ERA+ of the top 8 startres (98).

Mets do need another pitcher and resigning Perez would at least keep them status quo. The one move I don't want to see them make this year yet is signing Hudson to play 2B and bat in the 2 hole. It would go a long way to making the Mets a notably better team offensively and defensively where an INF of Wright, Reyes, Hudson, and Delgado is clearly superior to a Feliz, JRoll, Utley, and Howard combo.

I am not sure about that. All I know is usually the leader doesn't have to announce himself like mcnabb does all the time. I never heard dawkins says he was a leader. And I don't don't think leaders throw teammates under the bus like mcnabb blamed the defense for the loss sunday. So while we think he is because he say it, for that reason we may also dispute it.

INF of Wright, Reyes, Hudson, and Delgado is clearly superior to a Feliz, JRoll, Utley, and Howard combo.

Howard > Delgado
Utley > Hudson
Jroll = Reyes
Feliz < Wright

Utley is probably as much better than Hudson as Wright is of Feliz or any other 3B in baseball not named ARod.

How would Hudson suddenly give them a spectacular infield?

MG: Absolutely right on why the Mets failed last season: They had no answer for the loss of Maine and Wagner. That was huge.

I don't think Moyer will be an above average starter this year and we'll see if Myers can turn in a season where he is above average too (I think he will be but not by much).

Pelfrey clearly turned a corner last year in terms of his development. I don't know if he posts an ERA under 4.00 again unless he begins to master a third-pitch (basically a fastball/slider guy only) but he can do well with an average 5 K/9 rate if he keeps the BBs way down which he did last year.

One of these days the Phils need to figure out Redding, too. There is just no reason for him to dominate them the way that he does. I mean, his lifetime ERA is just under 5.

Carson..... correct again. Perez killed the Phils last season, and with the lack of a RH poser bat in the linup other than Werth, he is going to present problems for them again this season.

Santana, Perez, Redding in a 3 games series will be a tough series for the Phils no matter who the Phils' starters are.

I'm not so sure that Omar's interest in Perez doesn't have a lot to do with the fact that he has delevoped into a Phillie killer.

Last season head-to-head was not the deciding factor in the division.

In 2007 it was. I have a hunch that head-to-head may be the deciding factor in 2009, and if that's the case, bringing back Perez tilts the competition in favor of the Mets.

MG: You said they weren't "capable." I'm not predicting whether they will, but all four starters are certainly capable.

mvptommyd: You seem to know less about football than baseball. Wasn't sure that was possible.

clout: I'm still not sure they have a plan for a loss in their rotation. I suppose it's Jon Niese or Freddy Garcia. What's the Phils plan for the loss of a starter? Chan Ho Park, JA Happ and Kyle Kendrick are all possibilities for the 5th spot and then, I would assume, backups if something happens. I wonder if our backup plan is better...

No, I just have a few friends that are eagles and I have first hand knowledge of the locker room and don't believe all the hoopla mcnabb drums up.

And unfortunatley maybe your the one who isn't too up to par on the sports my friend.

OP killed the Phils last year (0.35 ERA in 4 starts)....but was brutal against them in 2007 (5.40 ERA in 3 starts). It's the same old thing with's all about consistency.

The Phils actually hit Redding pretty well after his first 2 starts last year. His first 2 starts he had 13.1 IP giving up no runs. After that, he had 3 starts against the Phils, giving up 11 runs in 15.2 IP (6.51 ERA).

clout: The construction "a/the" is not mutually exclusive. I stand by that.

To repeat, Abreu wasn't a bad player, but he's better in a place like NY where he wasn't in the spotlight. Here he was always one of the best 3 or 4 guys on the roster and that seemed to weigh on him and the other 24 guys. Of course, I was in Iraq in the summer of 2006 when he was traded, so you'd know better than I about what was happening at that time.

obviously met and philly fans have different views on there respective starting rotations..statistically the mets roatation was better then the phils last yr..the difference for the mets this yr is they dont have garbage pedro and his 5.5 era clogging up the #5 spot..instead they have redding/garcia..with the phils having the same rotation with a full season of blanton and chan ho/happ as ur #5, im just curious as to who philly fans think has the better starting rotation goin into 09'? Obviously im a little biased being a met fan, as r philly fans when this topic arises. Signing perez at 3/36 is a insanely better contract then giving lowe 4/60

skeeter4: Yeah, I believe Redding went into a post-ASB slump last year where he had an ERA close to 7. I just would like to see the Phils continue to hit him well like they should.

Utley has turned out to be an above average defender from hard work but what I have seen of Hudson he has more a bit more range (especially to his left) and pivots better on a double play much better. In fact, if Utley does have one weakness defensively it is his ability to pivot well and throw an accurate/hard relay throw on the DP.

Reyes and JRoll are probably a wash (Reyes may have a tad bit more range at this point simply due to age but both are very strong defenders). Wright is better than Feliz at 3B. Quicker reflexes, a bit more range, and a slightly stronger arm.

At 1B, Howard probably makes the more occasionally spectacular play but if you both Delgado and Howard are defensive liabilities. In fact, I would say Delgado is better at picking balls out of the dirt or on a bounce.

I don't ever expect Howard to be a Gold Glove at 1B but there isn't a single part of his game defensively that has improved. He still is terrible at picking balls on a bounce or out of the dirt, doesn't necessary do a great job of staying on the bag, and still positions himself improperly on pickoff throws to 1B. All of these issues are things that could be improved with practice but it is clearly evident that Howard just doesn't care much about this portion of his game.

I would say that Hudson and Wright are better than Utley and Feliz respectively. JRoll and Reyes are probably a wash and I might even take Delgado over Howard although neither one is a decent defender.

Metsblog take on Perez signing:

…i am still having a hard time digesting the idea that the Mets will essentially have the exact same rotation and lineup as last year… even though, realistically speaking, there wasn’t much else out there for them to do…

Yeah, Manny Ramirez and/or Derek Lowe were definitely unavailable to the team with the new stadium, TV network and #1 market...

Oh, I was speaking overall players, not strictly defensively.

AWH: Let's not get crazy here with some idea that Perez and Redding will continue their "mastery" of the Phils. Look past last year and Perez wasn't nearly as good as you think. And Redding's "mastery" is significanly over-stated. In his June start, he was tagged for 7 runs on 10 hits in just 4 innings.

MG: Wow... Hudson a better fielder than Utley? I'm not a huge fan of defensive stats... but are there any out there to support that?

Blashemy!!! Cy Redding is a bonafide Phillies killer!!!

"I just have a few friends that are eagles and I have first hand knowledge of the locker room"

tommy boy, you're at it again, spewing inaccuracies and claiming expertise where none exists.

Let's deconstruct the sentence above:

"I just have a few friends that are eagles"

Let's assume (a dangerous proposition where you're concerned) that the first part of the sentence is true. If that's the case, then you get your information from the players you cite.

BUT, if the first part of the sentence is true, then the second part cannot.

If you are getting your infor from someone else and not gathering it yourself, then, by definition, it is SECONDHAND infomation, not firsthand.

You either need to go to nightschool and take some English lessons, or you're bloviating again.

It's pretty interesting reading your posts.

In the end no matter what the subject your entire argument boils down to "because I said so".

Perez isn't a difference maker. Never has been and never will be. Doesn't have the consistency with his stuff or his mental makeup.

Mets are better off in the long-run with Perez at 3/36 vs. Lowe at 4/60 but not this season and any Met fan who think that Perez is a better pitcher than Lowe is nuts.

Funny, but Lowe isn't going be enough t make a difference on the Braves this season and the same thing with Perez on the Mets.

Didn't we just have the Utley fielding debate like 2 weeks ago?

Hudson WAS a better defender than Utley or any other 2B in baseball...WAS. He is no longer that great...he is now merely above average with the most scouts and all statistics agree.

MG: "Funny, but Lowe isn't going be enough t make a difference on the Braves this season and the same thing with Perez on the Mets."

That's a very fair way to look at it. I feared a Mets team with Lowe as the #2 in 2009. I don't fear a Mets team with Perez as the #2. And I don't fear the Braves unless they manage to get Jake Peavy, too!

CJ, you make a valid point.

What I should have said is that the potential exists for a tilt to the Mets.

Meant Philips. Ugh. With what I saw from Hudson on DBacks-Giants games the past 2 years, he would be a big step up form Castillo but Utley is the more consistent of the two across the board.

NEPP: I agree that the Phils INF is better than the Mets, largely because I don't believe Delgado will repeat last year's stats.

I disagree about the distance between Wright and Feliz being equal to the distance between Hudson and Utley. That is like saying a football field is the same size as a parking space.

I actually like what the Mets have done this offseason in adding some SP depth. You can argue either way on which rotation is better. Obviously they both have a bonafide ace....beyond that I think the Mets have 3 #3s (OP, Pelfrey and Maine) and a #5 (Redding) and the Phils have 2 #3s (Myers and Moyer), 1 #4 (Blanton) and a #5 (Park). I think you have to give the slight edge to the Mets.

Good point on the infield clout...comparing Feliz and Wright simply isn't fair.

Ok you got me smart guy secondhand knowledge are you happy? Why is it a "dangerous proposition"? And I will not cite my sources. Does anybody cite good sources? No they just report which I just did to all you smart guys who think leaders come by way of announcement and who get all your "baseball knowledge" via stat books.

I don't know why there is any discussion of the Mets and Hudson.

They haven't signed him.

Also, how bad was his wrist injury? Didn't he have offseason surgery?

How is that likely to affect him going forward?

For that matter, unitl we see him on the field, no one knows how Utley's hip surgery is going to affect him.

Did I miss something? Did the Mets sign Hudson? Last time I checked they were stuck with Luis Castillo who I'd rather have the Gnome over.

trolls are fun, eh?

Thank you AWH. This argument is like us saying "our bullpen is better than yours if we sign Juan Cruz".

I would put Maine in the "question mark" category. Coming off an injury, no guarantee he starts the season off pitching well.

Bruntlett is useless offensively and basically only a plus defender at one position (2B). Besides familiarity, there isn't another reason why the Phils resigned him.

He gives them good deals on travel too...that's always helpful in a tough economy.

I was just speculating on Hudson but he would be a notable improvement over Castillo defensively and offensively. Basically the perfect No. 2 hitter for them which both they and the Phils currently really kind of lack.

skeeter, yep! I was thinking the same thing. If you read over on Metsblog, the clamor for Hudson to the Mets is coming from fans. If he's even on the FO's radar I'd be surprised.

With the financial commitmant to Castillo, who had offseason knee surgery and is expected to recover, the Mets may wait and see what they have in ST before they go out and sign someone else.

If you take a look at MLBTR, there are over 200 players who are out of options, with less than 30 roster spots left.

The Mets may not need to sign Hudson. Though I haven't taken a look at who might be DFA'd, they might be able to pick up someone else for far less money.

Actually, any club that's looking to fill a minor hole right now might be well advised to wait and see who falls through the cracks.

Remember this: Romero, Seanez, Dobbs and Werth were exactly that kind of pickup.

I am sure other teams have taken note of that fact.

Is there any new info on the possible signings of a RH bat and LH reliever? That's what I'm interested in. So the Mets will re-sign Perez, so what. They didn't get Lowe, who's better at the moment. Right. They did not upgrade their rotation. They fixed their pen. But did little else. If they somehow got Manny, then I'd say we have a problem.

Dom P, Marcus Thames is a Tiger who is out of options.

He hits .256, .325, .528, .853 vs. LHP, and has played all 3 OF positions.

He probably won't last until the Phils spot in the DFA rotation comes up, but you never know.

I doubt the Tigers will let Thames go...they could easily have non-tendered him in the fall and they didn't.

Yo, new thread.

The Mets will go with Evans or Castillo at 2B this year. If and only if they can get rid of Castillo will they go after Hudson.

DPatrone - The Mets had the second-best offense in the NL last year (by RS). If Delgado and Beltran don't show signs of aging, and they replace Tatis' production, they don't need Manny. They needed to upgrade their bullpen and they need to hope that one of their young SP (Perez or Pelfrey) progresses. Yes, they could have signed Lowe (and their SP was 14th in the NL in RA last year), but I'm not sure that only Manny would make me worried.

skeeter4: No chance in hell that Evans plays second. I think you meant Daniel Murphy... and there is very little chance of that, either. He's spent very little time there (brief stint in AFL), and isn't near ready to play there in even a part-time role.

If Manny doesn't put fear into, I just don't know who does. Mets aren't getting Manny though so its really a non-issue. The real question marks on both teams is the aging players...Will Delgado and Tatis be able to duplicate their numbers of 2008 for the Mets? ... and will Moyer be able to duplicate his 08 numbers for the Phils. The impact of those three players cannot be downplayed, because if Moyer slides in anyway then the Phils are in trouble because they don't have a number 3 starter anymore. Delgado, well he's the cleanup hitter so if he slides the entire lineup collapses.

I'm shocked and humbled by the amount of solid baseball talk on this blog tonight. Don't pencil in Hudson to the Mets, please. Look at his numbers. Perception is not reality with him. His career OBP is poor. I'd rather roll the dice that Castillo couldn't possibly have as bad a year as he did last year.

I'm not pumped about Perez, except for the fact that he is lights out against the division. I would have preferred a one-year with an option year deal with Sheets, and then attack that need again next year.

11 days and counting guys! Good luck.

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