Manuel, Green prove there's no right way to lead

Charlie Manuel and Dallas Green share the honor of being the only two Phillies skippers to achieve championship glory, and did so using opposite styles ... or so we believe. [Link]

Comcast's Leslie Gudel comes through with another good interview today, just in time to flesh out a related topic I had on the backburner. The subject of that piece would have been "When did the public perception of the Phillies change from a team that needed coddling to one that functioned independently?" It seems like so long ago, but when I first started the site, the Phillies were regarded as a bunch of softies. This was, by far, the biggest complaint registered about the club. They weren't clutch, they weren't tough, and this is what was discussed every day.

Normally, the correct response to the "When did it all change" question should always be "When they started winning some damn games." Seems obvious enough, but as someone who's chronicled each and every step of this particular group, I'm uncertain. The "perception" didn't exactly change after winning the World Series; the team had already seperated themselves from the previous generation (Rolen, Lieberthal, Abreu) by clawing their way into the 2007 postseason and establishing a reputation for hard-nosed play. But even before that, the perception was slowly changing. Chase Utley foreshadowed the fearless field general he would eventually become as early as 2005, the same season Ryan Howard won rookie of the year. This was also Manuel's first season, replacing Larry Bowa and representing a change of pace from a manager considered too demanding for the modern athlete.

It's interesting, however, that the point when the Phils sold me on being different was around the time Manuel confronted Green about comments Green made on Howard Eskin's show in early 2007, which was at the center of Gudel's interview today. Coming at a time when the team had been scuffling through a rough patch of sloppy play, Green suggested that Manuel needed to do a better job of pushing his team. The next day, Manuel confronted Green in a heated pregame exchange that became public.

Looking back, I recall feeling two things: First, it was high time for Green to butt out and move on. Second, the Phils were indeed playing like crap, and I wondered if Manuel's loosey-goosey style wasn't to blame for the chronic slow starts.

Which takes us back to the Gudel interview. Not only are Manuel and Green on good terms, but Manuel actually credits Green for what he did in '07 and for showing him how to push players while earning their respect.

Comments

[J. Weitzel]

For those who missed it, we're up to 100 comments before the jump. I lobbied for more, but I'm grateful for 100.

[clout]

I'm sure clout will be pleased to note that Kendrick is SN's projected 5th starter.

Posted by: paco | Monday, February 23, 2009 at 09:17 PM

Nah, I just want the best guy. I'm on record as saying I think Conlin is right about the job being Park's to lose, but I'm not rooting for him either.

[B-Mac]

From Last Thread- MG- I actually, legitimately believe Howard will have a great start this year and have an MVP season. I wouldn't underrate the focus he will have in Spring Training not worrying about his contract, and I think the better shape he got himself in will really help him stay more consistent throughout the season. If the offense produces in front of him and Werth can provide some decent protection, I am feeling .292/.453/.645 .

[mvptommyd]

Clout; I disagree. I think as it is now it is Kendricks to lose for 2 reasons. He won twentysome games over 2 years and if he can get his changeup working this spring they will go with him. With that said Park will get his tryout but ultimately be more effective as a mid releiver. Finally with Happ, he will be our lefty in the pen at least until Romero comes back.

Then I see all heck breaking loose between kendrick, happ, carrasco fighting for the 5th spot if kendrick struggles the first 2 months.

[AWH]

B-Mac, if Ryan Howard hits .292, it's likely he'll hit at least 50 HRs again and drive in another 145+ runs.

It will also likely have a positive effect on the rest of the lineup.

Repeating will still boil down to the pitching.

[Klaus]

"It seems like so long ago, but when I first started the site, the Phillies were regarded as a bunch of softies."

In fairness, they do call themselves ponies.

[mikes77phillies]

re: When the Phillies changed from soft to hardnosed.
The change did'nt occur on one incident. It occured as a result of about 5 differnt factors over a 3 year period.
1. Got rid of Bowa. Incompetant tactician, egomaniac, who suffers from little man's disease. Getting rid of him allowed veteran players to bloom into leaders.
2. Rowand ran into a wall. Forced the other players to up the effort, so as not be shown up . Changed the perception of the team to the fans.
3. Traded Bobby Abreu. Great talent, but too laid back, to lead the team. Rollins deferred to Abreu out of respect, but asserted himself after.
4. Howard won MVP. Gave team confidence that they were as talented as anybody. Rollins said 'he thought he was as good as Howard.' Utley goes w/o saying.
5. Cholly Manuel tried to attack Eskin. Was on the verge of being fired(at least by the media) for another slow start. Forced players and front office to stand behind him. Forced us v. them, that carried through most of 2007.

[J. Weitzel]

Mike77: Good list. You got everything I was going for in this thread.

[EastFallowfield]

Yo, new thread

[Kutztown Fan]

Mike - very good list. I'd add that getting rid of Rolen was also influential. IMHO, he was a cry baby who had a negative influence on the rest of the team.

[WillyFromPhilly]

Just think, 30 years from now Dallas Green will still be here. He'll be about 105 then and be the senior advisor to veteran Manager Chris Coste.

[gino]

Good one, Willy, and great post, JW. I'll always love Big D for what he did, but it is indeed high time for him to stop sticking his foot in his mouth and just appreciate that he gets paid 100 grand to wear Hawaiin shirts and call an office at CBP his own.