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Friday, January 30, 2009


New reality this offseason is that even a $1M deal like Stairs might be difficult to move given the quantity of decent veteran players out there.

I bet you the Phils have already asked a bunch of team to take Stairs for "future considerations" and haven't found a buyer yet. Likely they won't know and the Phils either might be forced to seriously go with Stairs on the Opening Day roster or release him outright.

Jenkins is untouchable for any team unless the Phils bite off a meaningful chunk of his salary this year and probably pick up the tab on his $1.75M option.

I go back and forth on which one I'd keep. The one thing about Jenkins is you can stick him in right field and he'll play the position well. Stairs can't field. So if there's an injury in the outfield, Jenkins is the better guy to have.

Based on nothing but gut feeling (coffee mixed with Golden Grahams), I think Jenkins can have a nice little bounce back season off the bench. Might be b/c he was so bad last year.

In this market, he's overpriced, obviously, but they'll have to hope for the best.

For all the crap Feliz gets, and his signing got, it's amazing that Jenkins doesn't get more. His conract is far worse, and he contributes much less to the team. Clout is correct in that having both Jenkins and Stairs on the bench is just another reason why the Burrell/Ibanez swap doesn't make a ton of sense for this team.

I thought readers of beerleaguer and all phillies fans might want to read this it was just e-mailed to me, not sure how old it is or maybe its been discussed on here already but this guy has got to be the craziest,luckiest fans their is!! hope the link works

Ty Wigginton is the perfect signing for this team. RH bat with some pop and can play 2B/3B/COF.

Skeeter: Wiggy is exactly the sort of player Amaro is looking for in a trade. Unfortunately, there are lots of guys like that on the unemployment line, and their price is coming down daily. Unless you'd like to take on a contract like Guillen's, and I don't think Ruben wants that.

On the plus side, if you're going to simply cut a guy and swallow the salary, you don't have to do it until ST is over. So you might as well keep him around that long in case somebody else gets hurt.

In re: Wigginton
Sure he'd be great for us.

But we wouldn't be great for him. Don't expect him to sign.

Werth played well since he took over as the starter, but I like Jenkins a a 4th OF if we don't trade for a right handed batter that can also field.
Long season -we will need to spell at least one of the starting OF at some point.

Separate question- Anything current on Pete Happy's rehab that anybody has come across?

Gillick game up aces on the pitching front last offseason. Every move he made (resigning Romero, signing Durbin & Seanez, trading for Lidge) but every positional move was largely a bust because of the lengthy contracts.

Still, Phils won last year besides they had one of the better overall staffs in the league for a change instead of having one of the weaker ones. Does resigning Eyre and Moyer count as enough and going with largely the same staff again? We'll see but my bet is that the Phils will need at least one rookie to make a very meaningful positive impact on their pitching roster this year in order to make the playoffs again. Not a bold prediction but hard to see everyone staying healthy again.

Re: staying healthy.....I actually think the Mets have done a nice job signing a lot of starting pitchers as insurance if one or more Ps go down. I'd like to see us do the same with someone like a Kip Wells.

Phils are stuck with Jenkins or good or worse this season. They have to hope that he hits RHP a little more this year (depressing thing is that he was used very against LHP and still put up some very weak numbers).

If you looks at some of his stats last year, what jumps out is the dip in his ISO numbers to .147 which was the worst in his career. This was largely due to his poor HR/FB and HR/AB numbers.

His BABIP also dipped to .292 which means that he was probably a little lucky although his %GB went up and his %FB pct went down.

One of the biggest red flags though is that his %LD has gradually dipped the past 4 seasons.

My bet is that Jenkins get about 250-300 ABs with the Phils this year and experiences a slight bounce back in his numbers largely because he catches a few more breaks on his BABIP to say get his AVG up to .255-.260.

Biggest question though about Jenkins is his power. That is why the Phils signed him originally. His HR/AB was 32.5 (worst in his career). If Jenkins can hit some more fly balls this year, his power numbers likely will go up a bit. If he hits 13 or 15 HRs in say 300 ABs, he is a much more useful player.

If Jenkins gives the Phils something like .255/.320/.430 in 300 ABs with say 13 or 14 HRs then he is a useful 4th OF. Really depends on the power numbers because his AVG and OBP aren't either going to be great because of his poor BB/K and %BB numbers.

Feliz is largely in the same boat with Jenkins. If he doesn't hit for power (like he didn't after his back injury), he is essentially useless as an offensive player and likely hits a very empty .240-.250 like Jenkins did last year.

Funny thing is that the Phils would have been much better off signing Luis Gonzalez last year. Some argued that because of the money/contract. Gonzalez did give the Fish the kind of production the Phils wish they had gotten out of Jenkins at a fraction of the cost and no albatross contract this year.

Personally I'd keep Stairs for the sole fact that he's Canadian. But seriously, he's a great pinch-hit option. He's the one that could be moved more easily though via trade because of only 1 year $1M contract. The Phils roster is packed right now. Coste or Paulino? If Garciaparra is signed, who goes- Stairs or Jenkins? Happ, Kendrick, Eaton, and others are in the mix for the staff. Packed!

Andy: Exactly right. Wigginton will sign with a team that plans to use him as an everyday player.

Stairs or Jenkins?

Stairs has that mythical HR in the NLCS to permanently have him listed in the Top 20 Phillies Moments of All Time. Stairs had the Phillies Quote of the Year, when talking about that HR.

Jenkins? Um.....I can't think of anything good about Jenkins.

B-Dizzle-that's the point of this thread-who goes-Stairs or Jenkins. Both have contracts/age that are tough to move in this economy.

Clout- in the previous thread, you quoted me as to saying "I like the deal" in regards to the day Pedro Feliz was signed. I went back and looked and here was my response:
"I see Feliz as nothing more than a No-Hit Nunez with some pop...basically he sucks at hitting.

I'm glad to had solid defense at 3rd, but I hope to God "iz" brothers (Feliz and Ruiz) don't suck the offense out of our lineup."

*So what the hell is your problem man?

Jack: The reason Jenkins didn't get a lot of heat when he was signed was that his stats suggested a guy who would be very helpful to the team. With Feliz it was the exact opposite.

Jenkins started taking heat when he failed to produce during the season. I'm looking for a bounceback from him this year.

Carson: Obviously you commented more than once on the Feliz acquisition. The quote from you I posted is accurate.

With Dobbs on the bench, there's no need for either. I agree with Jason: "I would prefer a right-handed power bat and a speedster to either of them."

Let's see some links.

We can all make up quotes.

J. Wietzel - "I am in fact a Mets fan"

See what I did there?

I thought Jenkins would be a good fit before he was signed--nothing special, but a guy who could put up an OPS just a few ticks under .800. I'm not nearly so confident about his production for 2009; I kind of suspect he might be flat out done.

on the bright side, he did hit much better post-ASB last year: .279/.348/.443. but that was in only 61 AB.

I think eventually there will be a market for guys like Stairs and Coste. I also think if the salaries are not an issue (which they really aren't since MLB contracts are guaranteed), I prefer Jenkins on the roster for a full season to Stairs. I actually look forward to the idea of Charlie throwing LH batters 1-7 against a RH starter every once in a while (with Jenkins filling in for Werth and Dobbs for Feliz).

How quickly we forget the huge pinch double Jenkins had in Game 5, Part Deux of the WS.

I think Wiggy might want to play for a winner. How in demand is he at this point? With the quality of FA still out there he might just want to take a 1 year deal with a team that has a chance to win. Even if he isn't a starter, he would still get 300+ ABs on this team.

My prediction - by the end of ST, Matt Stairs will be gone from the 25 man roster. I'm willing to be that the best Junior will get is one of those "no specific player" deals: future considerations, cash considerations or a PTNL. Or he'll willingly take a minor league deal - but I doubt it.

Coste's only hope to remain a Phil is that Paulino stinks in ST. If Ronnie is what he looks like - a MLB substitute catcher who rakes LHP, he's sticking and Coste is going. They will not keep three catchers unless they're truly desparate for a RH bat.

As for Mayberry - he hits left-handed minor league pitching. I'm not sure if they will trust his ability to hit in the majors enough to start his clock. (Although, does it start anyway if he's on the 40? Can't remember and I don't want to think that hard.)

The mess began with the (Gillick inspired) huge desire to grab Raul Ibanez before fully exploring RH options for LF. Like others, I think Ibanez's next couple years will probably not be too bad - against RHP the line-up might even be better - it just calls for a different bench than the one we have.

johnnysanz: I simply went back to the threads on the day Feliz was traded and copied parts of posts that I thought made the point about the split opinions. I didn't copy the hyperlinks and, frankly, I could give a chit whether you think I made the quotes up or not. Go look for youself.

If anything the Phils would need to get Jenkins some playing time early to boast his current penny stock value.

Charlie commented how he thinks Jenkins is a much better hitter than he showed last year and thinks he will rebound this year as well.

I wonder if Coste's future with the Phils hinges on either Jenkins or Stairs being moved? Not bringing in another RH bat is part of his prayers every night I would imagine.

Park, Jenkins, Stairs, Coste, Paulino, Haap, Kendrick, Mayberry, Eaton, and Carraso will be playing a baseball version of musical chairs in the next two months.

I would say start Mayberry in AAA because you can, unless he dominates in ST. It just seems cruel to send Coste back to the minors, so hopefully they can find a trade partner for him during ST or they keep him as RH bat until they do.
Wigginton would be great, and I would actually give him a few starts at 1B against LHPs toward the beginning of the season. Howard seems to settle in against lefties as the season wears on, but in April and May he really struggles.

JB: Chances of the Phillies carrying 3 catchers: Zero.

Maybe Rube can pull something like he did with Park. Promise Wiggington a chance to compete. He should be able to beat out Feliz anyway.

There are plenty of ABs for wiggington with us. Just a matter if Rube can sell him on them and if he is in our price range.

Barring injuries, I can't see Jenkins getting 300 ABs as was mentioned earlier on this thread. I'll surprised if he gets 200.

I'd take Stairs over Jenkins as a pinch-hitter anyday.

We also needed a superior defensive outfielder to replace Ibanez in the later innings.

I think we'll see improved hitting out of both Feliz and Ruiz. Nothing spectacular but a 10-20 point increase. Based on what? I just think they'll be better hitters than they showed in '08...moreso Ruiz.

Pudge Rodriguez wants to play for the Marlins at $3 mil. Why not get him up here? It's not like he's washed up (see Paul LaDuca).

"The mess began with the (Gillick inspired) huge desire to grab Raul Ibanez before fully exploring RH options for LF"

I have a hunch the had explored the RH options and that's why they went after Ibanez.

skeeter: Wiggy is seeking AT LEAST 3 years, $18M, roughly what Casey Blake got. Chances of Amaro giving him even close to that: Zero.

As for suitors, per Rotoworld, the Orioles, Giants, Pirates and Reds are interested.

Eventually one of those teams will hit his number (which may end lower than Blake's) and he'll be an everyday thirdbaseman or DH.

BedBeard: A hunch, huh? Well, say no more.

clout, none of the teams you listed have a shot to win. As far as getting Casey Blake money.....I think he waited too long. I really think most of these remaining FAs are going to sign 1 year deals.

skeeter: So, you think he signs with the Phillies?

I think there is a chance.......

I'm curious how the Phillies would feel about this, but I would much rather have the Phils eat 3 mil on Jenkins' salary in trading him than trade Stairs. It would save the team money versus the alternative and I do feel Stairs is a better fit for this team. They need instant, intimidating offense off the bench. And although Jenkins is a nice insurance policy in case of injury, I do feel a possible Stairs/Dobbs/(Mayberry?) platoon could fill in fine for an extended period of time.


I would say a 2 year deal worth about 10-12 million on a bad team. Giants seem likely. They normally like to give out deals to aging vets.

I don't think wiggington is going to get 3 years (maybe not even 2). Blake was the best 3B in the market and the Dodgers had a strong need. He was in a good spot.

I don't think any team is going to reach for any player at this point. Maybe Oliver Perez with the Mets, that is about it.

Jenkins seems to be more of a veteran presence in the clubhouse and is definitely one of the better cheerleaders. The other plus is that his defensive is superior to Stairs, who is basically a DH at this point. Throw in the money owed to Geoff, and all signs point to Jenkins staying.

B-Mac - You think Stairs can play the OF for any extended period?

I think Dobbs will be getting a ton of work at 3rd this year with Feliz and his back.

Mayberry is a possibility, but who knows at this point.

At this moment we need a 4th OFer. For better or worse it is Jenkins. We need his replacement before we can trade him.

GM Carson -

"Ruiz may be 29 now, but he's a young 29. By that I mean that he still has the ability to improve, I doubt he's peaked. He needs to learn to relax with men on base, that's when he was jumpiest and swung at bad pitches.

I like this move because of Feliz's defense, but by golly it better be as good as advertised or I fear for his life. It does make the bench better with Dobbs going back to that role. I still hopes Dobbs gets 1 or 2 starts a week at 3rd though against tough righties. I'm also glad I won't have to watch Manuel F-up the 3rd base rotation and use 3 players at the same position every game.

I dislike this deal because Feliz is going to kill plenty of rallies while in the lineup. Sure his 20 homeruns will be nice, but making an out 72% of the time is not good."

Of course misquoting him by putting a period after "I like this move." is completely alright though, considering it makes a big difference in the context of the statement as the "I like this move" was the beginning of a sentence in preparation to describe the only reason he liked this move, and to further demonstrate why he didn't like this move and overall did not like this move.

But misquoting people is completely fair though as long as it fits the agenda of your post.

Stairs played 121 games in the field (i.e. not DHing) in 2007. I think he could probably still play left--poorly of course, but I think acceptably.

johnnysanz: Carson liked it and didn't like it all in the same paragraph and you spent all this time digging that up? My, my.

CY- No, I don't think Stairs could play OF consecutively for an extended period, but I would assume he would split time with Dobbs against righties and Bruntlett or maybe Mayberry could play against lefties. So if one of our outfielders were to take a DL trip, I would see him having only 1/3 of the starts, which I think he could handle. He's certainly no wizard in the field but at this point in his career he should know how to play the field semi-competently.

B-mac + ae - I guess 1 out of 3 days for a few weeks wouldn't be that bad, but I would think that would be more of a qualification for a 5th OFer rather than a 4th.

Still think we would need to ad someone that could legitimately fill in for a while if we dump Jenkins. Not that Jenkins would be anything special if he had to fill in.

Like I said, I don't see Dobbs playing much OF this year.

Hope Mayberry steps up, or we land someone usefull off the scrap heap.

Clout: You don't think they explored options? This team doesn't exactly operate on the seat of their pants.

BedBeard: I don't know whether they did or not. Neither do you.

In that Jason Stark article he states that Ryan Howard has spent the offseason working on his defense and and conditioning. This sounds very good to me.
It also states that when he was in the minors that he was regarded as avery good defensive 1b.
Now I ask the people on this blog who know more of the scouting on players in the minors was this true?

"Still, Phils won last year besides they had one of the better overall staffs in the league for a change instead of having one of the weaker ones."

MG, while I don't disagree that the final numbers looked good, that was due primarilly to the exellnce of the bullpen.

Three-fifths of the rotation blew up last year at one time or another, which necessitated the trade for Joe Blanton.

Eaton - minors and gone
Kendrick - minors and gone, with a chance to resurrect
Myers - minors and miraculous resurrection

Hamels and Moyer were the only "sure things" in the rotation last season. By that I mean that, before the game, one was reasonably confident what one would be seeing on the mound that night.

clout, I have a hunch you'll disagree with someone in the next 24 hours.

AWH: Seconded...

It's amazing what a difference a year makes. Jenkins would be looking at a minor league deal if he was a free agent now. I still like him in the So Taguchi 25th guy on the roster spot, although he is very expensive for that right now. Jenkins hit in game 5 was incredible and he's a great cheerleader. Maybe he can pinch run for Ibanez too. If the Angels take a lot of Gary Matthews contract what about Jenkins for Matthews?

This is Gm-Carson reply

If it weren't for Feliz's 20 homeruns and handful of rbi, people would be pissing all over this deal, but they see 20 homeruns and think he's good. Just like Nunez was "good" in '05 with that .285 batting average...too bad it was an empty .285!!

Doesn't sound like he was for the deal

fljerry: OK, mark him on the negative side. The point of my post (read it) is that there was lots of strong opinions on both sides the day the signing wa announced and I thought the excerpts showed that.

Sounds like he's the captain of the Feliz fan club there. or a "Feliz Lover", as some like to say. J/k, of course.

"Three-fifths of the rotation blew up last year at one time or another"

I just re-read what I posted and thought through the ramifications of it.

If I had said to any BL'r last January, that three-fifths of the rotation would be sent down to the minors because of ineffectiveness, and the Phillies would STILL be "WFC", how many of you would have told me I was deranged.

Think about it for a resilient the team was, how resilient the FO was (I hated typing that), and how good a job Charlie Manuel did keeping the team together and playing hard.

And I didn't mention JRoll's injury, Ryan Howard taking a vacation the first two months of the season....I could go on.

But I think you get the idea.

A poem:

Jenkins and Stairs
Who cares?

Romero suspended
Bullpen up-ended?

Pat's bat's gone
For a song

5 spot is open
Chan Ho is hopin'

Feliz and Uts
Both got cuts

Howard wants dough
so don't start slow

Tix prices up
Pass 'round the cup

Rev- Stark's right. Ryan Howard won awards in the minors for his defense.

Howard committed 17 errors in 118 games as a 1B in Lakewood in 2002 for a .985 FP. he also had 6 errors in 29 games in 2004 AAA (.977 FP) and 8 errors in 58 games in 2005 AAA (.986 FP). his fielding percentage last year was .988; 19 errors in 159 games.

not that errors/FP are necessarily the best way to judge a fielder, but by at least one metric he was just as error-prone in the minors as he is today.

I would like to know what the defensive awards he won in the minors were; Baseball Cube at least doesn't list anything.

Maybe Howard has finally figured out he's not going to get the LT contract he wants unless he can play in the NL.

Yankees are set at 1B, won't spend THAT much on a DH, IMO

Boston won't bid against themselves, even if they have an opeing at 1B

The Mets will be reluctant to give him a monster deal anyway (they're not the Yanks), but especially if he's a growing liability in the field

Dodgers have Loney

Chicago - maybe Derek Lee will be gone, but maybe not

All the small market teams are out, and the Rangers learned their lesson with ARod

So who would the bidders be, that will drive up his price?

If he win $18MM in arb this season, and get's raises the next two, he'll likely be making $22MM+ by the time he becomes an FA.

If that's the case, the Phillies may not offer him arb for fear he's accept.

Unless he plays better defense, he might have a hard time getting a raise from the salary he's earning at that time.

We'll see.

I agree - there were pros and cons in getting Feliz - just like pros and cons in having Vic being our centerfielder for the whole year

if Howard wins $18M in arb next year, I would bet almost anything he gets traded. I can't see the Phillies paying anyone $20M.

er, "this year" of course, not "next year."

Bobby Abreu won awards in the majors for his defense.

Thank you very much for those of you that backed up my statements. Clout severely misrepresented my true feelings from my quotes on the Feliz signing around this time last year. Clout- you now owe me an apology and a steak dinner at Mortons.

Carson, LMAO!!!!

I have a hunch that you have about as much chance of getting a steak dinner from clout at Morton's as you have seeing the Phillies sign Howard to a 10/200 deal.


I also have a hunch clout will try to turn it around and get YOU to buy HIM a steak dinner.

I also have a hunch clout likes Kobe beef (very expensive, you know).

I have a hunch that clout finds the things I write about him objectionable.

One thing about Clout - hes extremely knowledgable about baseball - I usually agree with him on just about everything - somethings he goes to extremes but he is a likable person and I am sure most of you agree

Fljerry -

"what statistical evidence do you have that proves most of us agree? Please point to specific statistical reference points to back up your assertion."

(Just kidding Clout)

I usually don't have a problem with Clout, and I actually share his point of view a lot. However, this is the 2nd time in the past couple weeks I felt he misrepresented me via a snippet of a quote. This Feliz instance and the Abreu trade. That's not cool take a handful of words out of an entire block quote to misrepresent what the person was really saying.

I agree with fljerry. Clout is extremely knowledgeable about baseball.

I usually don't have a problem with Clout, and I actually share his point of view a lot. However, this is the 2nd time in the past couple weeks I felt he misrepresented me via a snippet of a quote. This Feliz instance and the Abreu trade. That's not cool take a handful of words out of an entire block quote to misrepresent what the person was really saying.

Posted by: GM-Carson | Friday, January 30, 2009 at 04:49 PM

Some might call the practice of taking a handful of words out of an entire block quote to misrepresent what the person was really saying...intellectual dishonesty.

Gosh, fellas. Forgive me for poking a little fun at someone.

Thin skins abound.

AWH- no thin skin here, in fact I think people in general need to lighten up and have a bit more fun in life and not take things so f'n seriously.

Sorry Clout. That was too good to pass up. Like an Adam Eaton curveball.

Oh how quickly we forget Lake Fred...remember our "leadoff hitter" in game 5.5? I would argue that was the biggest hit of the Phillies season.

"Stairs or Jenkins?

Stairs has that mythical HR in the NLCS to permanently have him listed in the Top 20 Phillies Moments of All Time. Stairs had the Phillies Quote of the Year, when talking about that HR.

Jenkins? Um.....I can't think of anything good about Jenkins."

Carson: I was running down a series of comments in the thread and snipping out comments that seemed to be strongly one way or the other to make the point that there were strong feelings about Feliz on the day he was signed.

I do apologize for not reading your entire quote and thus not realizing you thought the signing good and bad. As I say I was quickly snipping out quotes, not carefully reading each post.

For those like fljerry and johnnysanz who think I did this to somehow shame you, I can assure you that was not the case.

I realize that post was the biggest event in the lives of several of you, but honestly it was not intended to distort Carson's views on Feliz, whatever they may be.

I am contrite.

Spitz: "...remember our "leadoff hitter" in game 5.5? I would argue that was the biggest hit of the Phillies season."

Exactly right. It set the tone and saved that game. Yours is the only Beerleaguer post I can recall to even mention that hit since hte World Series ended.

I have a hunch AWH began hitting the bottle early today.

RE: Jenkins' game 5.5 hit

In the interest of BL accuracy and fairness, Skeeter4 was the first to cite that hit today (12:08) in response to the Lake Fred Jenkins post. Spitz pointed it out also, but later.

The Clout steel trap memory misses one every now and then.

But I'm sure we all remember that hit -- a veteran's total clutch hit, mind over matter.

Hope: Thanx. I missed skeeter's post (as apparently did Spitz). Kudos to him.

slow day at the office

This clout-carson kerfuffle reminds me of that scene in LA Confidential where Kevin Spacey's character Jack Vincennes gets transferred to the vice squad for his transgressions and he holds up a nudie picture and says "Oh, lookee here: the great jerkoff case of 1953."

I have a hunch we'll discuss the Feliz signing, the Ibanez signing and the Abreu trade eac h at least twice more before ST breaks.

I have a hunch clout likes PA Dutch scrapple as much as (if not more than) Kobe beef.

I have a hunch Gnome reports to camp without that stupid Gnome-beard he began the year with in 2008.


(Chris Coste has a hunch Chris Coste could kick all your sorry butts; and Chris Coste backs up Chris Coste's hunches.)

This is some slight evidence that Jenkins may hit a tad better and up his OPS to say .720 or .730 (about a 30-40 increase) he gets a bit more lucky with BABIP and hits a few more HRs. If his power stroke is eroding too bigtime, then Jenkins will be belowe average this season too.

There really isn't really much though to indicate that Feliz will hit any better this season. His numbers last year were on par with what he has done the past 3 years. If anything, the bad back is likely to hamper his power (at least a bit) and I would be surprised if his .SLG increases at all this season and his OBP will be weak (.290-.300).

"I have a hunch AWH began hitting the bottle early today.

Posted by: clout"


Wait, Clout- every time someone brings up Feliz's WS GW hit, you say, correctly "one big hit does not make up for a season's worth of mediocrity". Which is why I'm surprised to see you on the Jenkins bandwagon, citing one big hit. Why the inconsistency?

Jack, I have a hunch clout has anti-Latin tendencies in his thought process.

You know, tendencies along the lines that Klaus discussed.

That would explain the double standard you've identified.

"Unless he [Howard] plays better defense, he might have a hard time getting a raise from the salary he's earning at that time."

Unless he plays better offense than he did in '08, he'll have a hard time getting a raise.

"I have a hunch we'll discuss the Feliz signing, the Ibanez signing and the Abreu trade eac h at least twice more before ST breaks."

I have a hunch it will happen before ST even starts. Two weeks is a long time.

"In reference to Ty Wigginton, Jocketty said, "They're getting close to desperate stage. But we're really only looking at bench help." "

Good news for us.....

MLB Notebook has an analysis of "replacements" for players that did not get re-signed by their own teams.

This on Burrell/Ibanez:

"Pat Burrell vs Raul Ibanez

Pat Burrell
33 86 0 .367 .507 20.4% -14.7

Raul Ibanez
23 110 2 .358 .479 19.1% -11.0

As I said at the time, I thought the Ibanez signing was a mistake. With Utley and Howard in the lineup, Burrell was the perfect fit for them. A right handed bat that provided some pop. And the numbers show that Burrell really wasn't that much worse of a fielder last season, and it's not like they were really upgrading the position in the field."

link here

Clout has google, time to copy and paste statistics and a lot of opinions. I suppose that passes for "knowledgable" in this digital age.

I wonder how a discussion at the ballpark with clout would differ from Beerleaguer. I highly suspect that he'd be a bit less of a jerk and a know-it-all in person without the anonymity and security of the internet.

Pat Burrell was the worst LF in baseball not named Adam Dunn. Thats why he had to sign with Tampa Bay as a DH and take almost a 50% pay cut. Please stop trying so hard to find ways to prove that Ibanez is as bad defensively as Burrell. Its not true.

Anon: That's pretty funny coming from someone who calls himself "Anon"!

Just to be clear I've never claimed to be "knowledgable." Far from it. I'm here to learn and do so by reading knowledgable posts from others.

Now take your posts for example. Most of them are about me. I do recall a couple that were about baseball, but they didn't strike me as particualrly knowledgable. So on the number one subject you write about, plus the number two subject, you are 0 for 2.

Jack: If I had said that Jenkins' hit "makes up for a season's worth of mediocrity" as the Feliz folks have been saying, then you'd be right.

But I didn't say that. Which makes you wrong. Yet again.

mikes77: I really shouldn't try to explain this to you because it's futile, but I'll give it a shot.

The point being made by AWH and many others here isn't that Ibanez is just as bad a fielder as Burrell. It's that he's just not that much better enough to offset the exchange of a high OB, high HR righty hitter for a medium OB, medium HR lefty hitter in a lineup that's already loaded with lefty hitters.

If Ibanez were righthanded, there would be no controversy at all.

But if it makes you feel better I agree: Ibanez is a better fielder than Burrell. He's below average and Burrell is well below average.

The comments to this entry are closed.

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