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Thursday, December 11, 2008

Comments

I really, really don't like this:
"Indications are that Ibanez could sign soon, with the Phillies the leading contender and the Angels, Cubs and Mets also believed to be involved. FOXSports.com even throws the Nationals into the mix. It's likely that Ibanez will get a three-year deal, probably one worth in excess of $11 million per year. He's thought to prefer Philadelphia as a destination."

I'd rather spend $32M for 2 years of Pat Burrell than $33M for 3 years of Ibanez. The team would have absolutely nothing from the right side beyond Werth.

Isn't the trade deadline still July 31?

I don't like it, either, clout. It's exactly the situation I was hoping they could avoid by wheeling and dealing for a short-term solution like DeRosa.

What Amaro forgot to add is that Paulino was fat and out-of-shape for the better part of the last 2 seasons in Pittsburgh.

Maybe Cholly gets him to change his demeanor/attitude. If that is the case, then this was a very good deal. More likely, it is a deal where the Phils exchanged a player (Jamarillo) who was no longer in their plans and took a flyer who a guy who might upgrade the major league club.

Still, I want to know what happens again when Paulino likely is named the backup catcher again coming out of spring training? Does he pout and if so does Cholly take a firm hand like he has increasingly done (e.g., Myers, Victorino, Rollins)?

Yeah, I REALLY don't understand why signing Ibanez is a better idea than re-signing Burrell.

But ibanez hits .270 career against lefties, nearly .300 against righties, has 20 stikeouts less per season.

pat hits .250 against righties career wise and only .276 against lefties.

I agree Clout. Makes zero sense to bring in another lefty. Now if Werth hits 5th, with 25 hrs and 90 rbis, maybe it will work out semi-ok. But I don't like it.

From the last thread for mvptommy:

Um...how can the Phils "make" Hamels sign? BTW, 7 years for 145 million is neither market-value nor is it team-friendly. Sure, I'd love to see Cole end his career here, but the Phillies should be worried about winning another World Series in 2009. Putting off a long-term deal until NEXT YEAR (or even the year after, actually) makes the most amount of sense to make sure that happens.

And trust me, I'm sure the morale on a World Series winning team ain't bad. And it would probably be boosted by adding a second ace, not making sure the current one is set for life.

Ugh, this is what really frustrates me about some people on here. Everyone knows better than the GM. But when you look at the number Ibanez has better overall numbers than burrell.

Order of leftfielders i would want: Burrell or Ibanez, Dunn,Manny, Abreu

For the life of me, I can't figure out this Ibanez move. He's 36, a leftie, costs more than Pat, and will cost us a 1st round draft pick. Charlie said it best, "We won the WS with him out there..." We can hit Ibanez 6th behind Werth to split up him and Howard, but how does it make sense other than that? I think we'll be just as good with him as with Pat in left next year, but the other factors make this a bad idea, and personally I'm all for giving the tie to sentimentality when it comes to defending your title. Just bring back The Bat.

Ibanez? Said below this would be the absolute worst signing the Phils could make for the following reasons:

1. Phils deride Burrell's defense in LF and rightly so with a guy who is barely an upgrade in range/with a weaker arm. So much for the improvement in defense.

2. Ibanez is a left-handed bat. 3-4-5 when Utley comes back will be left-handed. Can you say LOOGY anyone?

3. Phils don't want to offer Burrell more than 2 yrs (and I can understand why actually) but Ibanez is 36 (and their is a good chance he is a 1 or 2 older than his reported birth date) and at any moment his production could fall off a cliff. Didn't the Phils learn this when they signed Jenkins last year?

4. Phils have to give up a 1st round pick.

Best case scenario is that Ibanez stays healthy and is productive for the first 2 years of the deal.

Bobby D:

Exactly, If you get ibanez he has to hit 6th with werth being 5th. That would work and look at his career numbers above. He actually hits lefties almost better than burrell does.

I hate when the Phils go the middling route and sign a guy like Ibanez. So much for Amaro's mantra of "pitching and defense" this offseason.

As I said before (and was attacked/mocked), I still don't believe that Amaro has a real plan this offseason besides trying to maintain the status quo as best he can.

MG is 100% correct. Ibanez is not going to be hitting sixth in this lineup, he's being brought in to replace PtB in the 5 hole.

Does the fact that I don't want Ibanez on the Phillies mean I don't think he's a good player? No, I just don't think he's a good fit on this team as it's currently constructed. And the construction ain't terrible if they just won the World F'n Series.

How can amaro have a set plan this offseason, when he has a million guys still yet to go to arbitration?

Look, he has a very difficult job this offseason. As long as the core is here and we only have ato add/ drop a couple guys this team will be fine.Everyone just calm down. I think if we get ibanez he can hit lefties so who cares where he hits, but I think it will be in the 6 hole.

So...how does Jake Peavy go back to the Padres and pitch now that the deal to the Cubbies is DOA? You've got to think that pitching for a rebuilding team isn't very appealing to a Cy Young-caliber pitcher. Do you think he changes his tune and expands the teams he'd be willing to pitch for?

It took 2 years but I think we've finally found our guy to replace SirAlden as the staunch advocate of, the nothing-the-Phillies-ever-do-is-wrong position.

Bay area phan,

Now that they won the world series when last yr we killed them at the trade deadline and the guys that we, inlcuding me wanted them to get stunk i.e. marte, mahey etc.

Yes, you are 100% correct, i am trusting the gm this time.

Ibanez is a good hitter, but signing a left-hander to replace Burrell would be certifiably nuts.

But he hits better lefty as a lefty.

Burrell (righty) hits .250 against lefties
Ibanez ( lefty) hits .280 against lefties

Burrell (righty) hits .271 against righties
Ibanez (lefty) hits .295 against righties.

Am I not making sense???

Pssst...mvptommy, we've got a new GM now. Slightly younger, likes to lie a lot, and seems to have an aversion to Hawaiian shirts. I'll hold off on declaring him infallible until after he actually fills the hole in left field and acquires a 4th and/or 5th starter.

Like I said earlier today- I'm actively hating Ruben Amaro. If he f*cks this team up that they're not in the playoffs next season, he should be instantly dismissed.

pssst. Jeltz, breaking news. Gillick is his top consultant and basically the Assistent GM without the title.Gillick was even in the phillies suite for the winter meetings, say it ain't so.

mvp: So in other words, no matter what Ruben Amaro does this off-season, it cannot possibly be wrong? Ryan Howard for Ronny Cedeno? Hey, we need a utility player. Chase Utley for Colin Balester? Well, we need a starting pitcher.

GM-Carson,

1 year boo rule.Don't know if you understand, that means no complaining for a year. How is he going to mess this team up anyway, all the core are here.

tommyd: And his Ibanez three year split on OBP is .325 against lefties and .366 against righties. Burrell's? .421 vs. lefties and .369 vs. righties.

BAP

Come on be reasonable, you really think he is going to do that??? Your insane. Some fans are really enver happy. Did we just win the world series 6 weeks ago???

I would not mind the Ibanez move for this year, its years 2 and 3 that scare me. Especially if paying him means we don't keep Werth long-term.

@mvptommyd: Look at their OPS splits. Also look at all of the factors MG laid out. Do you not read what others post? If you like Ibanez you like Ibanez, we get it, that's cool.

mvptommy, Ibanez may be a slight upgrade as a hitter (although that's debatable as he's played his entire career in the hitter's circuit), but regardless of that having him in the lineup makes OTHER PLAYERS (ie RYAN HOWARD) more susceptible to LOOGY's. Especially if Chase is hitting 3, Ryan is hitting 4 and now Ibanez is hitting 5.

And yes, it makes sense to have him hit 6th. But I've got three words, a comma, an abbreviation, and a period that should make you understand why that isn't going to happen: Charles Fuqua Manuel, Jr.

Call me crazy, but I love the Chan Ho Park signing. If he pitches like he did last year, he's a major upgrade at middle relief.

MPN, yea and you know why??? First of all why pick 3 years? do the whole career and burrells average has gone down each year. Second, burrell strikes out alot so therefore he takes more walks than ibanez. Ibanez will help us with a think called small ball. He hits 5-8 less HR's a yr but has more hits. He still gets 100 plus RBI's a year so who cares how he gets them? He moves runners if anything, thats why his OBS is off. Look at the average, rbi's and strikeouts.

Baxter: I don't hate the Park signing either, actually. I would've had he been the 5th starter. And I will if that's the Phillies only "big acquisition" of the Winter Meetings.

Why use a 2006-2008 three year average? I'll try not to be condescending here, but that is the best snap shot of a players trend-line. As for OBP, well, um, most outs are unproductive, so it's sort of the object of the game for the batter to get on base and thus increase his team's ability to score runs.

"mvptommy, Ibanez may be a slight upgrade as a hitter (although that's debatable as he's played his entire career in the hitter's circuit), but regardless of that having him in the lineup makes OTHER PLAYERS (ie RYAN HOWARD) more susceptible to LOOGY's. Especially if Chase is hitting 3, Ryan is hitting 4 and now Ibanez is hitting 5. "

Two things:

First, are the stats for hitters really inflated in the AL?

Second, if Chase is hitting 3rd & Howard is hitting 4th, how would the 5th hitter have any impact with regards to a LOOGY? If the 5th hitter is a righty, the LOOGY faces two batters and leaves. If the 5th batter is a lefty, either the LOOGY faces 3 batters or, at some point, they bring in a new LOOGY.

PtB: Career OPS+ 119 (last 3 year avg. 125)
Raul Ibanez: Career OPS+ 113 (last 3 year avg. 123)

They are essentially the same player...except PtB bats right-handed. And might have slightly slower foot speed. And is at least 3 years younger.

Right, but how did the phillies win in the world series? By playing small ball. moving runners along and then driving them in which is exactly what ibanez does.

Thats why I do not pay attention to stats. You can make whatever case you want by stats.

mvptommyd: You're cherry-picking your numbers with Burrell vs. Ibanez

Career OPS vs. RHP
Burrell: .819
Ibanez: .849

Career OPS vs. LHP
Burrell: .950
Ibanez: .733

Burrell is FAR SUPERIOR against LHP and Ibanez is only slightly better against RHP.

Summary of the winter meetings:

Mets:

- Minaya biggest needs were starting pitching and to rework the bullpen. Also could use an OF bat to play LF.

1. He signs KRod who instantly who plugs the closer hole. Conflicting reports about his drop in fastball velocity (wear/tear vs. more control on his fastball/reduce stress on his shoulder) but don't believe the foolish reports that the Angels didn't want him back.

It was purely economics. Angels had what they believe could be a decent solution and are all out to resign Texiera. An injury risk with sometimes spotty control but instantly seals the closer question for the Mets.

2. Very solid trade. Breaks down this way

a. Heilman, three prospects and Jason Vargas for Putz - Maybe seem like a pretty high price to pay for likely one season of Putz potentially ($8.5M option for 2010) but Heilman needed a change of scenery, Vargas was pure filler, and the best prospect who is Carp who maybe becomes a Mike Jacobs down the road. Putz simply put is a better setup man than anyone the Phils have in their pen.

b. Chavez and Smith for Reed and Green. Chavez might be a better player than Reed but he can't say healthy enough to be on the field. Reed fills the 5th OF spot for the Mets as a solid defensive replacement. Smith has better raw stuff than Green but again this likely didn't leave a noticeable hole in the Mets' pen either.

Phils:

- Amaro biggest needs are a starting pitcher and a right-handed bat for the OF. Phils also need to some insurance for Feliz/Utley and acquire some more bullpen help.

1. Amaro makes a decent minor deal for Paulino who might represent an upgrade to the backup catcher spot if he comes into camp into shape/keeps a positive attitude all season long.

2. Phils are supposedly close to signing Park. Disaster if they Phils are counting on this guy to start. Decent signing if they are counting on him to round out the pen and serve as insurance in case Durbin struggles this year. Depth in the bullpen is a good thing.

mvp: Not only are you not making sense, but I have no idea where you're pulling your numbers from. Ibanez actually batted .305 against lefties last year. But last year was an anomaly. The year before that, he hit .256. The year before that, .243. Besides, there are these things called slugging percentage and on-base percentage, which actually matter more than batting average. Ibanez's go way down against left-handers.

In any case, it's not a matter of what Ibanez's numbers are against left-handers. The point is, he is considerably worse against them than against right-handers. The same is true of the other two key hitters in our lineup. You can't have a heart of the order which 3 hitters in a row can be made significantly worse just by putting in a left-handed pitcher.

mvp - Your joking right? The Phils scored a majority of their runs during the season (and especially in the postseason) on the long-ball.

"GM-Carson,

1 year boo rule.Don't know if you understand, that means no complaining for a year. How is he going to mess this team up anyway, all the core are here."

Burrell- righthanded pop and Moyer- stabalizing force are gone. Minus 2 months of Utley. Not nearly as good as last year.

mvptommyd: The Phils did not win the World Series by playing small ball. They won the World Series by slugging the ball. The bulk of their runs were scored by HR or by incorporating extra base hits. Small ball is a myth.

More to the point... we won the World Series by pitching.

Ugh, you guys are impossible. If a World Series can't make you positive then nothing will.

I don't care who they get burrell, ibanez, jenkins for LF. I trust amaro and believe in the end we will be in the playoffs again like the past 2 seasons.

"I don't care who they get burrell, ibanez, jenkins for LF. I trust amaro and believe in the end we will be in the playoffs again like the past 2 seasons."

And I believe you are naive to think the Mets aren't a substantially better team now than they were 3 days ago and that the Phils have actually gotten worse since the end of the season.

Really, the world series i seem to remember the majority of the runs came on small ball including the game winning run.

And the number i put was for Ibanez for the Career. not by season, look at his career average splits.

MG: I think you're glossing over the Angels/K-Rod thing. There were lots of indications that the Angels didn't want K-Rod back regardless of the price. The Mets got him at quite a discount. There were apparently some personality reasons (he was quite a loner in the clubhouse and some teammates felt he was more interested in individual save numbers than the team's success as a whole)... and there are some questions about his declining numbers.

2. Almost no one is reporting that Chan Ho Park is coming in to be a starter. I think this was a good signing that could really stabilize our bullpen for next year.

3. I agree... we still have a starter and a LF to fill. The Mets still have a starter and a LF to fill.

Please sign Juan Rivera and get this over with. Give him a 1 or two year deal and keep the corner OF spot warmed up for Michael Taylor. Save the money and drop it on a extension deal to Hamels, Victorino, and perhaps Werth, but only if he proves his health again after another full season without injury. Park would be great for the bullpen, but there is no way Amaro could be looking at him as a #5. He will be invited to join the competition for the #5, but that is about as close as he will get to it.

The Phillies won the World Series by playing small ball? With a team that led the National League in homeruns and was second in slugging pct.?

mvptommyd: The winning run came because Pat Burrell crushed a pitch off the wall. It's called an extra-base hit. Then he scored on a base hit. It's not like Burrell got on with an infield hit, stole second, moved to third on a ground out and scored on a sac fly.

GM carson

Sorry i cant help but think, isn't that exactly what you said this time last year???

I'm so tired of this "they won the world series, you can't criticize them" We are discussing baseball, if people don't like a move, they are going to say something about it.

I would not read these comments if it was all mvptommy's brand of blind optimism. If the Phillies blow next year, I will be booing the hell out of them. You do whatever you want.

mvp: When you sign a player who will turn 37 next year, don't you think his recent performance is a little bit more meaningful than his career numbers? Come to think of it, that holds true even for players who aren't 37 years old.

Mets want to sign Lowe too? It's like the Yankees vs the Mets in the Winter Meetings.

http://myespn.go.com/s/conversations/show/story/3763051

A lot of Dodgers fans on the mlbtraderumors site were sorry to see Chan Ho Park go.

This is why all you guys should be GM's, because you know it all. Forget amaro, gillick they don't know anything in your opinions.

What do they need to do? Win 3 in a row before you trust them, man, we just won the world series.

Frankly I don't understand the calls to extend Victorino this offseason. Makes almost zero sense as the Phils control him for 3 more years and his value is at a high point. Same thing with Hamels too.

I actually agree that it makes little sense to extend either guy right now unless Hamels is willing to give the Phils a decent discount if they buyout his remaining arbitration years with a 4 or 5-yr deal.

RJM:

Good buddy, boo your lungs out. You have fun, your one of those nitwits that give us true fans a bad rep. "I am unhappy, so i am going to boo at the game. Even though we are defending champs, i dont care we didn't sign all these guys I wanted on my fantasy team. BOOOOOOOOOOOO"

Theory of the Day: mvptommy is actually SirAlden going under a new handle.

mvptommyd@ Thanks for your permission.

"When you sign a player who will turn 37 next year, don't you think his recent performance is a little bit more meaningful than his career numbers? Come to think of it, that holds true even for players who aren't 37 years old."

Yes, last yr, he has good numbers and look at manny he is going to be 37 soon. And not too many people are concerned with his production.

"GM carson

Sorry i cant help but think, isn't that exactly what you said this time last year???"

You're right, I'm not scared to admit. The Phils team proved me wrong, but I'm not dumb enough to think the injuries to Maine, Orlando, Pedro, Alou, and Billy Wagner didn't severely alter the Mets winning % last year.

And trust me, I'm damn happy and proud of the '08 Phils, but as much as I hate cliches, one that I do like is "you can't rest on your laurels".

According to SI.com's Jon Heyman, the Cubs and Mets are talking about a Jason Marquis trade. The Cubs will have to eat salary, unless they follow Heyman's suggestion to take Scott Schoeneweis.

rjm08 - Sadly Philly is very much a "what have you done for me lately" town. JRoll was right on the money when he said that last season even if it wasn't a savvy thing to make it a public statement.

If the Phils really struggle in April (and there is a decent chance that will happen with Utley out and this team's historical slow starts in April under Cholly), the boo birds will be out and in force unfortunately.

I highly doubt MVPTommy is SirAlden. SirAlden frequents my site and makes way more sense and is more sensible than this doof.

I really can't believe you guys are complaining already. I am dumbfounded. We are 3 major signings into the free agent season and already you are complaining. I am really utterly shocked.

I bet you all are holding out on renewing your season tickets until they sign some big signings too right haha.

GM Carson: Come on... you don't think injuries to Jimmy Rollins and Tom Gordon and Chase Utley... and problems with Brett Myers and Adam Eaton and Kyle Kendrick affected the Phils Win %? No reason to play that game. It's stupid. The Phils were the better team last year. Period. Excuses are for losers.

"Really, the world series i seem to remember the majority of the runs came on small ball including the game winning run. "

Game 1: Phillies score 3 runs. 2 were on a HR, 1 was via smallball.

Game 2: Phillies score 2 runs. 1 was on a HR, another was a double, followed by an error.

Game 3: Phillies score 5 runs. 3 solo HR, 1 case of small ball, and the run in the 9th. We could debate the run in the 9th, but it was a HBP, a WP, an error, 2 intentional walks & a single. Of those events, only 1 was controlled by the Phillies.

Game 4: Phillies score 10 runs. 1 was on a bases-loaded walk. 1 was smallball. 8 were on home runs.

Game 5: Phillies score 4 runs. The first two run were scored after walk, hbp, strikeout, walk, single. Not quite smallball, since there was only 1 hit, but I could see a case being made for it. And I'd call the next two as being smallball as well. Yes, they both started with doubles, but the next batter advanced the runner to third, and the batter after drove in the run.

Regardless, that's 24 runs. 14 were by the longball. 5 were smallball & 5 were otherwise. Even if you were to say that any run not scored on a HR is smallball, that's still not a majority.

mvptommyd: Dude... you're giving us optimists a bad name. There's no reason to get so defensive. You've made your point. They have every right to disagree. Let it go. Relax. Go watch the World Series DVD!

CJ- where did I say the Phils weren't the better team, because I think they were. However, the Mets are a good team too that just got better. Getting rid of Heilman actually helps and Putz and K-Rod are high quality bullpen arms. I'm not saying they're better than the Phils now, but I am saying the Mets have improved, while the Phils haven't and have actually gotten worse in my opinion.

MG, it would be nice to see one of the fresher faces of the franchise to get an extension. Especially Hamels whom I would prefer another injury free year or close to it before attempting an extension. Once Hamels hits FA status do you think the Phillies would be able to stay in the bidding? I don't think so. Myers is coming off the books soon as well so there goes our #1 and #2 over the next 3 years.

For Ibanez, at 3 years, 11per, if that is rumored than that seems like a solid deal.

For the past four seasons, has hit better with runners on base than bases empty. Career .272 with the bases empty and .302 with runners on.

As well, if they signed a righty, wouldn't we likely have 5-6-7-8 as right handed bats when we play Feliz? Werth-Ibanez-Feliz-Catcher seems more balanced than it would be if we stuck a right-handed bat in there.

I like the idea of a guy that can hit for a solid average to be mixed in to the lineup instead of Burrell. I think Ibanez plus Werth full time makes the lineup balanced in a manner similar to what the Cubs had last season.

Ruh roh Reorge:

"2:53pm (CST): Stark says the Phillies 'stepped up their efforts' for Ibanez. What's more, Ibanez has been telling friends the Phils are his top choice."

At least it won't be a platoon, I guess...

@MG: Totally true, I am not quite fickle enough to boo them in April. Actually I don't think I've ever them at the games, but I've had many unkind words directed at them in in front of the television.

I just think this argument that we have to accept everything they do happily is ridiculous. Let's face it, they don't have a perfect track record.

MG: Correct... the only reason to sign Cole and Vic now is if they over us cost certainty over the first couple years of what would be free agency and the Phils don't have to significantly increase what they'd make while under our control. This is how it's worked for other young players.

why not go after Abreu if we r gonna settle for a lefthanded bat? he is younger and more productive than Ibanez.

I just think its a disgrace that after at the stadium the day of the parade everyone was chanting "Charlie Charlie", if this team goes 3-8 to start, some idiots will be calling for charlies job.

I thought after we won, things would change, but some people will never be happy and its sad. My only advice is stay away from the stadium, we need the positive energy there, not negative people waiting to boo at the first chance they get.

Damien:...and is used to being booed by the Phans.

Ibanez isn't Manny and, if Manny were left-handed, I wouldn't want him either. It's not about whether Ibanez is still a good hitter. He is. It's about having balance to your lineup.

i understand, thats why i am suggesting putting werth at the 5 hole and if we sign a lefty leftfielder put him at 6th.

MVPTommy- shut the hell up! Seriously, you're paiting all of us with such a wide brush it's ridiculous. It's not that we're fickle, or ready to boo right away again, we're upset that our Championship team is missing important cogs in Burrell and Moyer and the voids are far from filled. If Amaro manages to pull the holes with quality, there will be a lot less bitching, but right now he's done essentially nothing and aside from Lowe rumor that seems far-fetched and Ibanez rumor that many don't like. I love the Phils, I don't want to be mad with them, but right now the 2008 season is over the team is getting ready for the 2009 season the current roster isn't as good as the one we ended the season with.

mvp - Agreed it is not fair be overly critical of Amaro given there is still time in this offseason to make moves.

I think what most fans are upset about here (mostly diehards) is that they have followed this team for a long time and upset the Phils' FO will take their usual middling route this offseason. Means largely pocketing their profits and just maintaining their status quo.

Also doesn't help that Amaro comes out as an arrogant and condescending persona too. Given that he doesn't have any track record to stand on, this is going to rub fans (myself included) in the wrong way.

@GM: Well put.

Moyer is 46 yrs old and why not give Happ a chance for less money???

I want burrell but it might not be able to happen. But both players aren't signed yet so relax. Everyone is saying we are going to the basement and gotton worse. How can we gotton worse when we havent even played a game yet and even on paper, we don't have Moyer who is replaceable by Happ who was pretty damn good in his 2 starts this year in the pennant race. Along with Burrell who most of us couldn't wait to get rid of 2 years ago and now we are acting like the guy is Manny. If we get Moyer and Burrell then good, if not Amaro will have other option ready i am sure.

And when I mean status quo I mean letting bringing in cheaper alternatives for Moyer/Burrell that aren't as good & don't replace their production.

"the 2008 season is over the team is getting ready for the 2009 season the current roster isn't as good as the one we ended the season with."

But, it's not like it's worse with no possibility of getting better.

MG:

Like i said, usually i would be band leader behind all those people. BUT we won. So we can let them do things how they want for 1 YEAR. if they screw us over then next yr, all bets are off.

But for people on December 11th to be saying if they mess up, i am going to BOO, that is ridiculous.

"And when I mean status quo I mean letting bringing in cheaper alternatives for Moyer/Burrell that aren't as good & don't replace their production. "

Happ/Burrell or Dunn, last time i checked both players were still there.

I like Happ's potential, but MVPTommy you just proved to me you're not quite sure what you're talking about when you said this- "Moyer is 46 yrs old and why not give Happ a chance for less money?" and this "we don't have Moyer who is replaceable by Happ who was pretty damn good in his 2 starts this year in the pennant race."

2 starts...la-de-fricken-da!!! Moyer has made 20x's as many of those type starts over the course of his career, and has 240+ more wins than Happ. Happ is unproven, Moyer is. I'm okay with replacing Moyer with Lowe or Looper or Wolf, but to say Happ can replace him is foolish.

mvp - What are you talking about? No one is saying they are going to the basement. I haven't seen one post in the past 3-4 weeks that said that.

The reality is that this team won 92 games. Good but not great team. Last 2 seasons they have had a narrow margin to make the playoffs. I don't think anyone on here doesn't think the Phils can't contend next season but the reality is that with the current roster they would be hard pressed to win 89 games/make the playoffs again.

I don't think people are expecting this team to win the World Series again next year but the expectations have been raised that this team will make the playoffs.

GM: "The Phils team proved me wrong, but I'm not dumb enough to think the injuries to Maine, Orlando, Pedro, Alou, and Billy Wagner didn't severely alter the Mets winning % last year."

Sorry... you seem to suggest in that quote that the Phils success was largely attributed to the Mets bad luck.

MG: "I think what most fans are upset about here (mostly diehards) is that they have followed this team for a long time and upset the Phils' FO will take their usual middling route this offseason. Means largely pocketing their profits and just maintaining their status quo."

See... now you're being unfair. It's clear this team did make the necessary moves to win a World Fvcking Champsionship. Just because the moves aren't costly doesn't mean they weren't good. The Yankees sure spent a lot of money to not make the playoffs last year.

Looper or Wolf!!! Are you kidding me, they stink!

Are you serious dude. Happ is a lefty who is good.

Do you know Happ can't????

Very well said MG.

CJ: Thank you. You are clearly speaking my kind of language.

CJ- poor wording on my behalf. I meant they proved me wrong last year because they won it all. I should have started another sentence making it a separate thought about the Mets injuries. Bottom line, the Phils were the better team no ifs, ands, or buts.

At MVPTommy- Wolf 12-12 with a 4.30 era and 1.38 whip last season, Looper 12-14 with a 4.16 era and 1.31 whip last year. Although not great, they far from stink.

mvptommyd is absolutely the most clueless poster in the history of Beerleaguer. He doesn't know what OPS is, he doesn't believe in stats, he thinks the Phillies are a small ball team and he says we should all trust Ruben.

GM: That's fair.

mvp - The reality is in any town (particularly a town like Philly, NY, or Boston where the fans are probably a bit too over zealous) is that the 1-yr exemption following a championship thing is largely BS. Sad yet true.

One thing I have changed my opinion on is Cholly. Never thought this team would win a championship with him at the helm. Still don't think he is a good tactical manager or knows how to handle a pitching staff that well.

The reality is though is that this team has played hard for him and won the past 2 years including a very difficult 2007 season (which frankly was more impressive than Cholly's managing job in 2008).
Cholly has earned the right to manage this team and get some slack from the fans.

On the other hand, Amaro doesn't have that right. If the Phils win and make the playoffs this year, then he does but that isn't the case.

I think the whole thing is, is that Ibanez is just not the most logical move. If he comes cheap, I get it but if we can get Burrell for around the same, why not go that route (especially at less years)? Even Charlie says he wants a good right-handed bat.

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EST. 2005

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