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Thursday, December 11, 2008

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He's better than Kris Benson.

**People can be in denial all they want, but the Mets just have a GREAT 2 days. Adding K-Rod and Putz while purging themselves of Endy Chavez and Aaron Heilman."


Carson, neither of these guys is an AllStar, but Endy Cahvez actually put in some very valuable innings for the Mets the last couple of seasons off the bench, particularly defensively.

Heilman..............they're probably dancing jigs over at metsblog.

Jason,

I agree, this and the Paulino move make me think the DeRosa deal may be next. Or something that we have not heard about.

Um Bonehead...So am I.

"Krod eh? Well I just got Ronny Paulino."

"Meh, we just got JJ Putz."

"I'll raise your Putz a Chan Ho Park"

"He's still alive?"

"Yup, he's got a glove and everything."

"But I also think it’s a sign that they’re preparing to move one of their 5-6-7 starters, including J.A. Happ and Kyle Kendrick."

That would be helpful if they could get anything marginally useful for those guys.

The Mets signed Putz? You mean clout actually did get a job in MLB afterall?

They traded for Putz..."giving up" Aaron Heilman and Endy Chavez and a couple other pieces.

From last thread: "I still remember when I was at a home game two years ago when the fans booed Barajas mightly just because he was going from the dugout to the bullpen."

Now imagine the love they'd feel for Delmon Young.

Right now I am actively hating Ruben Amaro.

Blow your brains out possible pitching staff at some point in 09:

Hamels
Myers
Blanton
Kendrick
Park

Assuming Moyer doesn't resign and Happ is traded for a LF.

Hey guys haven't been here in a while but wanted to add 2 things.

1.) Don't we OWE this team a 1 Yr. ban of no booing, since we did just win the 1st world series in 28 yrs?

2.) JJ Putz was on the IR TWICE last season with hyperextended elbow. He is injury prone and isn't what he was 2 yrs ago when he was a lidge for seattle.

I'm with Tommy...remember after the BoSox won in 2004 and Bill Simmons initiated a grace period where he wouldn't be overly critical of the Sox? I think his idea of an appropriate length was 5 five years....

Anyway, I'm fine with a little grumbling about the inactivity, or more appropriately about the Mets activity (no doubt they have improved), but the lack of patience with the Phils is being laid on a little thick.

Count me in the camp that thinks something will happen on a scale somewhere between "big" and "good enough."

I'm with you on that, Baron.

Thanks Baron. I just don't want SOME people on opening day as they are getting their rings to boo. It's not over yet. But the Mets have approved ON PAPER. Rodrigeuz's velocity is down and they got a really cheap deal, is that a warning sign?

Mets also gave up 9 could em 9 players for JJ putz including utility guy endy chavez who was good for them and also Joe smith, one of their actual good releivers. So sure it looks good on paper but lets see them perform before we get scared.

The mets got 2 historically good releivers. But now have a weak rotation( as of now it is Santana, ???, maine, pelfrey, ???), weaker bench, still no 2nd basemen, weak catching, weak outfield corners.

Bottom line is their relief pitching got better but the rest of the team is still the same. So lets hold off before we annoint them 95 game winners. We are still the best team in the division as of now.

The Mets have absolutely no depth and no farm system now..if they have any injuries they're screwed.

JW, while I've never been a "Condrey guy", I think it needs to be recognized that the last three seasons, except for about 6 - 8 meltdowns, he's been a pretty effective middle reliever and mopup guy. Pitchers like that have valuable roles on every pitching staff.

To wit, would the Mets liked to have had him last season? How about the Braves? Nats? Fish?

I could go on, but I hope you see my point. He, despite his shortcomings [he's not 'dominant, doesn't have an 'out' pitch, etc.] has been a fairly feective reliever IN HIS ROLE the last three seasons.

He's been better than more than half of his MLB equivalents during that time period. In 2008, he had 2 bad outings by April 9th, in games where the Phillies were already significantly behind. From that point forward he pitched to a 2.80 ERA.

Besides, if he were dominant he wouldn't be the 7th guy out of the pen.

So my only point about replacing CC is 'be careful what you wish for'.

Tommy:

The Mets gave up 7 guys. Heilman and Chavez and Smith were the names people know of outside of Metsblog. Mike Carp is a future DH. The other three are who knows prospects.

And, that Mets team that has so many weak positions - it put up the same amount of runs as the Phillies did.

I'm sure Putz and his agent are thrilled about this trade.

I would rather have CC then the Korean version of Aaron Heilman. But if they are replacing seanez with him then it is ok i suppose.

I believe its a requirement of the CBA that we have at least one Asian player on the team. Park will be replacing Taguchi on the Order of Battle just as Taguchi replaced Iguchi.

I have come to have faith in the Phillies ability to find treasure in the Scratched & Dented Sale.

The deals that never excite us (and sometimes provoke scorn) provide the pieces we need to win: Victorino, Werth, Blanton, Shilling, Eisenreich, even Lidge to some degree.

The major trades and signings that land established talent (the ones that Phillies fans rave about as they happen) tend to screw us both financially and on the field: Danny Tartabull, Kevin Millwood, Freddy Garcia, David Bell, Ivan DeJesus, Von Hayes, Geoff Jenkins (yeah, I called Jenkins "established talent").

The lesson I have learned: If we're picking something up off cheap from the scratched and dented sale, there's reason to hope. It's when we break the bank or trade the farm for a top name that I start to worry.

The Mets also gave up Joe Smith, who always seemed to me to be the best guy in their pen except for a healthy Wagner last year.

Drew,

Ok thats fine for offense but how much better were the phillies in the field then the mets players. Phils had more assists from the outfield, less errors. That is just as important.

As a Mets fan, I am sad to see Joe Smith go. He is, however, a ROOGY, which is what we got back in Sean Green.

As for Endy, I think Reed will perform his recent function just as well.

Putz also has a $9.1 million option for 2010. A bit pricey for a setup guy, even for a deep pocketed team. (Thanks CitiBank for the $20 million per year naming rights! I'll now go defenestrate myself onto a soggy CC street....)

Well tell me drew. Now that you guys have depleted your farm system between putz and santana. All you have left to trade is F martinez, neise who isn't very good ( 3 starts, 2 horrible) and awful reyes. Looks like no more trades for mets. Now with already spending 13 /yr on rodriquez, how are you going to get all those parts I listed above with only 17 million? Because your GM has 25-30 million to work with and I am giving him the upper of that budget with the money remaining.

Heilman and Endy Chavez and a few extra peices can get you JJ Putz and even a decent 4th OF in Jeremy Reed? Thats a fleecing on paper if Putz's injuries havent hindered his abilities.

Big big moves in New York, can't blame Omar on this one if they fail to make the playoffs.

Also, Jon Neise is a very legit prospect, so I wouldn't overlook him as a complete hole in their rotation. Might not be a top end pitcher anytime soon, but should be fine in the back end.

I do agree with everyone that its too early to start comparing rosters though. Im not saying the Phils are going to end up with Peavy, Lowe, or Manny anytime soon, but I'm keeping faith that at least address their biggest problems with league average talent.

Tommy - those guys that left, I hadn't even heard their names except Vargas (I forgot about him.) We have Parnell, Kunz, Niese, F!Mart, Flores, Murphy, Stoner, Davis, Havens...

It's not a hell of a lot that I actually know about the farm, I'll give you that.

I wouldn't call Church weak. Before his 2nd concussion he was raking. Murphy looks like the platoon with Tatis in LF, which isn't ideal, but should be enough offense.

We need a 4 starter, and I think Niese might get the 5 spot and get beat up like Pelfrey did a couple years ago. But, I don't think he's not very good. I think he needs more time, which the Mets don't look like they will be able to give him.

As for 2b, I want Castillo gone, but I think we're going to have to live with him.

You can tell the mets are mad that the phillies won the world series the way they have gone out spending and trading.

Good for them. Like I said on paper looks like a good job. But, if putz and/or rodriguez doesn't work out then what? You traded away all your players for a couple guys.

This is like last yr all over again. All the cocky Mets fans are coming out of the woodwork to pump their chests this time not about santana but 2 other guys. All i can say is let them. We are the champs!!!!

"This is like last yr all over again. All the cocky Mets fans are coming out of the woodwork to pump their chests"

I haven't been cocky. I just feel the need to weigh in when gross mis-statements are made.

Drew,

With all due respect those guys aren't "top" rated". Neise isn't that good, he has gotton lite up when he started. Murphy is ok, but now he got hurt in winter ball.

You said church BEFORE his second concussion, exactly. The mets are always getting guys that WERE good and then get hurt and never recorver ::cough cough:: Putz, 2 trips to the IR last yr for an elbow, same injury Maine is recovering from!

I think your guys rotation with be as follows: Santana, Perez(re sign him), sheets (coming off injury so ??), pedro, neise. Would you be happy with that???

From the last thread:

"Jr. has done nothing of note so far. Minaya has. That's all I said and that's truth."

That's true but not very telling. Minaya and Amaro aren't in directly comparable situations. Minaya is trying to (and making great progress in) fixing a dramatically bad aspect of his baseball team. Do the Phillies have a similar weakness? Or are the three phases of the team vulnerable but essentially solid? To say that isn't to give Amaro a pass if he fails to take advantage of opportunities to make significant improvements (somehow retain Burrell, acquire DeRosa or, if the gods permit, Young for Donald). But the judgment should be made in relation to the Phillies only, not to the Mets, whose situation is rather different. The mountain the Phillies have to climb isn't quite as steep.

As an aside, I saw someplace that the Phils are willing to pick up $7 million worth of Eaton's contract for this year, plus his buyout for next year if a team is willing to pick up the other $1 million. Hopefully we can find a taker, but I'm not holding out hope.

With the emergence of Ryan Madson as a setup reliever, expected continued excellence (though not perfection) from Lidge, and the Mets aquisition of Putz and Frankie Rodriguez, one thought occurs:


Assuming they all stay healthy, the Mets and Phillies are going to play a lot of 7 inning games in 2009, especially head-to-head.

Klaus,

exactly. All we really need is another serviceable option for the pen, left fielder, another bench guy. Also, without getting too greeedy a starter.

But honestly, I wouldn't mind a rotation of Hamels, Myers, Blanton, Happ, Kendrick/Carasco.

Tommy: I wouldn't, because then Maine and Pelfrey would be god knows where.

And, the guys we just gave up weren't top rated either.

"But honestly, I wouldn't mind a rotation of Hamels, Myers, Blanton, Happ, Kendrick/Carasco."

It's dangerous though to fill two of your rotation spots with unknown or dubious commodities. Not including Myers.

If bad blood hasn't arisen I still think the Phils will resign Moyer.

Drew

What do you want to see the rotation at?

tommy, I think they'd like to have someone with more experience in the #4 spot.

If they re-sign Moyer, then he'll be the #4, though I am on record as saying that in 2009 they might get as much out of Happ as they would out of Moyer.

Moyer's 2008 stands out tremendously if you look at his last 5 seasons. I don't expect nearly as much in 2009.

new thread.

Kalus,

I almost agree. But Happ started 2 games i believe in the pennant race and was lights out for one and let up a couple runs in another.

My whole point is that we replace moyer with happ and give kendrick another chance(this is on the notion we don't trade him and coste for de rosa). Then use Moyers money and Burrell's money to get a legit LF.

AWH,

I would agree if Happ had never pitched in big spots. But he pitched during the pennant race.

I just think it is stupid to force moyer back by giving what he wants whe we could use his 9-13 million he wants for 2 yrs on a LF, or even to bring back the Bat!

Just curious? With all the rumblings being heard, do you think there is a reason the Phillies are not pursuing Milton Bradley who could be a very serviceable left fielder?

Because he is a head case. No seriously, i dunno. I am not too high on him personally.
I think our best option is eithier get a lf'er with burrell type numbers or being back burrell.

I do not disagree that he is a headcase, but realistically, we have a player's manager in manuel. Plus, Bradley hits at a .293 clip in the pitching heavy American league. In the bank, as a switch hitter he could definitely do some damage, not to mention the huge speed upgrade over Burrell, whom I believe will be a DH somewhere next year.

Clay Condrey serves a very important function on the Phils team. He is always available and he is a very effective innings eater. When the Phils have a big lead or are getting blown out of the water, it is Condrey who can come in and give them 3 solid innings, thereby saving the arms of the rest of the bullpen. What he does may not be glamorous or often praised, but at the end of the season, what he does makes the rest of the pitching staff look a whole lot better. For what he costs, I would keep him in the Phils pen where he belongs and be grateful to have him.

I would be very surprised if the recent Paulino and Park action weren't a few chess moves ahead of something bigger and better happening later today or in the near future. Either or both of them may have been acquired to fatten up trade packages or to replace current Phils who are. Although the Peavy trade has occupied center stage for most of the week, I keep thinking back to the Rockies offering Atkins, Taveras and Torrealba to the Cards for Ludwick, Schumaker and Boggs, who now may be willing to trade the same players for something like Madson, Donald and Paulino. I would think that the Paulino acquisition may be more for trade and the Park acquisition may be more for replacement since other teams could have already signed Park as a free agent without having to trade for him.

Madson, Donald and Paulino for Ludwick, Schumaker and Boggs sounds like a fair trade to me.

yo... new thread

Regardless of what the Phils plans are for Paulino, I would bet on Lou Marson being the Phils long term plan for catcher. Ruiz had very solid playoff and world series performances, but I still feel that the future belongs to Marson as soon as he is ready. I have always liked Chris Coste but I think he was too distracted last year. Maybe he should have postponed publication of his book and waited to add a few more interesting chapters.

I guess Park will be our 'token Asian' next year.

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