Afternoon update: Pujols wins MVP; pitchers targeted

Updating the latest Phillies news as of 3:40 p.m. ET.

-- Cardinals first baseman Albert Pujols received 18 of the 32 first-place votes, 10 seconds and two thirds, edging runner up Ryan Howard, who finished with 12 firsts, eight seconds and six thirds. Brad Lidge finished eighth and got two first-place votes. Chase Utley finished 15th.

-- The Phillies are looking at Juan Cruz, according to FoxSports. The 30-year-old right-hander went 4-0 with a 2.61 ERA for the Diamondbacks last season. He’s a Type A free agent. Reports have also listed Russ Springer, Doug Brocail and David Weathers as possibilities for the Phils. Springer, Brocail and Weathers are solid veteran options, but of the four, I’m highest on the fireballer Cruz, a guy named 18th most desirable free agent on the entire market, according to Keith Law.

-- Scott Proefrock, who spent the past three years as director of baseball administration in Baltimore, has been hired to fill the final assistant general manager position. Proefrock, selected over Jim Duquette, Wayne Krivsky and Muzzy Jackson, will handle Major League contracts and roster composition, according to Phillies.com.

Comments

[EastFallowfield]

Can't wait to hear how bad Proefrock is. C'mon, let's hear it.

[hamels' left hand]

proefrock? really?

[Andy]

I know nothing about Proefrock except that he has a great name for BL purposes. :-)

Congrats to Pujols. Cruz would give the Phils a genuine, bonafide set-up man to preceed Lidge. I'd hate to give up a pick, but he would be great to see.

[thephaithful]

David Weathers and Russ Springer? Those guys are still around? That makes RJ Swindle not look too bad anymore.

[baxter]

Its almost as if the Phillies base all of their front office and coaching decisions on expected salary.

[baxter]

Signing Juan Cruz is cheaper than resigning Madson long-term.

[Len39]

Congrats to Pujols. As great as Howard was in September, Pujols deserved it.

I'm not too sure about those middle relievers. I'd hate to give up a draft pick for a marginal player with the state of the minor league system.

[Jack]

Cruz is the best non-closer available, and the only guy among them they should be considering signing, as he may or may not be worth giving up the draft pick and paying a good amount for- the other guys certainly are not. The only downside on Cruz is that his walk rate has been going up, but he's still been very effective.

[J. Weitzel]

Bill Dancy let go by the team, according to Lauber.

[Brian G]

I am in theory against giving up 1st round draft picks for relievers.. but in practice I would trade Anthony Hewitt for Juan Cruz.

[phlipper]

Alby -

"But you really ought to read up on it before declaring it "completely off base."

What, studying at the clout school of arrogance?

Apparently you didn't understand what I meant by my statement. First, I did not say that VORP is "completely off base." What I said is that people who assume that VORP, or any other SABRmetric is an objective measure of a player's value are completely off base. Maybe there was some ambiguity there. Although, as I said, I think that VORP is a useful measure - I should clarify my earlier statment. What I meant was that anyone who thinks that VORP is a sufficient measure to objectively measure a players "value" is off base. Once again, "value" is an inherently subjective evaluation. It depends on what one values - which is inherently subjective.

The truth of that statement is self-evident. All one needs to do is look at the fact that 29 out of the 30 players on your VORP list received fewer MVP votes than Howard to see that my statement is true. You may think that VORP is the single best way to evaluate a player's value. If so, you are in a tiny minority of the baseball-watching world.

[MPN]

Sign Cruz (our first round draft pick won't be great this year), sign Gordon to a minor league, incentive laden contract tied to durability, trade Madson, and offer Burrell arbitration (recoup draft pick if he leaves) and I think we'd be cooking with gas.

[CJ]

MPN: Cooking with gas is expensive... which should cook with electric.

[baxter]

Give Hewitt a chance. Everyone said he'd struggle for a couple years, even in a best case scenario. Hewitt was in line to replace Pedro Alvarez at Vanderbilt and a lot of scouts thought he had the biggest upside in the entire draft class. I'm not projecting anything, but its far too early to dismiss Anthony Hewitt.

[control13]

Why trade Madsen other than financial reasons? What are we getting back for him? Just when the guy fills out and learns how to throw 97 mph gas we want to trade him?

[MPN]

I should have put the Burrell signing/let walk prior to the Madson trade. If Burrell walks then Madson should be able to deliver us a young, talented OFer, etc.

[clout]

flipper: I think the reason posters seem arrogant to you is that so many of your own posts are ridiculously uninformed.

Saying that VORP is a subjective measure and then using MVP votes as your proof is absolutely hilarious.

If your point is that VORP is a poor criteria for MVP, I can agree, depending on how you define MVP. If you define it as "player at his position having the best season" then VORP is perfect. If you define it as "the guy whose leadership skills and league leading HR and RBI totals got his team into the World Series" then VORP is worthless.

[MPN]

control13: Quite frankly because Madson's stock will never be higher. Also, I was at game 5, part 2 and saw that meatball HR he gave up. I'm not convinced that Madson's strong finish was the real Madson or not. So, if Burrell leaves and we sign Cruz and Gordon, then Madson is a useful trade chit. With Cruz the bullpen would set up:
9 Lidge
8 Cruz/Romero
7 Durbin/Eyre
5/6 Gordon/Condrey

[RT]

Cruz at the expensive of the 30th overall pick in the draft. Hmm... I think I can deal with that. :)

[Unikruk]

I will now remind the remaining hysterical posters than Juan Gonzalez won not one but TWO (TWO!) MVP awards in the 90s. Congrats to Poo-holes, one of the best players of his generation.

[clout]

baxter: I agree. I even think it's too early to dismiss Golson. But the signs are looking ominous.

P.S. Is it too early to dismiss C.J. Henry?

[RT]

*expense

[MPN]

CJ Henry is the next Danny Ainge clout!

[MPN]

...or maybe the poor man's Mark Hendrickson if he was as "effective" in the NBA as he is in MLB...

[MG]

Like Cruz but likely he wants a multi-year deal at around Romero numbers (say 3 yr/$10-$12M). If so, I don't see the Phils biting and they will fall back to a secondary option like Weathers.

[MPN]

MG: That will be cheap compared to what Boras will want for Madson.

[bob]

i don't know about giving up a 1st round draft pick for Cruz. Cruz is going to cost more to sign than Affeldt, who signed for 2 years, $8M with the Giants. Would you really be ok with adding such a sizeable contract onto the payroll with the cost of forgoing control of a player for 6 years of MLB service at a significant discount, for the benefit of a setup reliever whose performance declines after 40 innings?

of course, the onus is on the scouting dept to make sure they find talent (and the FO to sign that talent), but I'd rather forgo a 1st round draft pick for a player that's going to have more of an impact in the short-term (as in over the next two seasons).

[Durbinator]

Don't trade Madson and sign Cruz. Then you can let Madson walk next year. I doubt Madson would be a type A free agent but he should at least be a type B.

[CJ]

MPN: Ryan Madson's ERA+ last year was 151. This year it was 144. He has 4 losses and 3 BS (one of which was a loss) in 114 relief appearences the last two regular seasons.

In his last 18 regular season games, he posted a 1.93 ERA with a 1.125 WHIP and 19 strike outs with JUST ONE WALK in 18.2 IP.

In the postseason, he was 1-0 with 2 blown saves and 5 holds. He had a 2.13 ERA, 0.868 WHIP, and 12 K's to just 1 walk in 12.2 IP.

But, you're probably right... based on that one "meatball," we should dump the guy before he's exposed as not the "real" Madson.

[bob]

and yes, Madson was throwing out of his mind for most of late-September/October. however, it's obvious that his 97mph gas is not a sustainable thing. By the time the Phillies faced the Rays, his velocity was back down to 92-93mph.

[bob]

"MG: That will be cheap compared to what Boras will want for Madson."

I think the Boras thing is overhyped. Because his salary is paid on commission, he probably spends most of his resources trying to get huge premiums on his biggest clients at the expense of his smaller clients, especially clients that will have a hard time ever topping $7M/yr. With this economic environment basically blasting the budget for 2010, Boras is going to have to account for weak demand for second/third-tier free agents like Madson. that said, i would like to see what Madson could fetch on the market these days when his value is at its so-called peak. i doubt it'll bring back anything worth his value to this particular bullpen.

[MPN]

CJ: What were Madson's ERA+ for 2005 and 2006? He was pitching out of his mind good at the end of the year, so that helped his ERA plus and had shades of 2004.

Regardless of your sarcasm, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree regarding what Madson will do moving forward. I just happen to think that I'd rather have some cost certainty with a Cruz rather than have to play with Boras next season.

[MPN]

Oh, there they are: 106 ERA+ and 82 ERA+, respectively, for 2005 and 2006.

Juan Cruz (from 2004-2008) posted ERA+ of: 157, 57, 113, 152, 176. His K rate is much higher than Madson's, too. He's thrown more strikeouts than innings pitched in 3 out of those 5 years (missing by 6.7 and 2 Ks in those years). Madson has never thrown more strikeouts than innings pitched in the Show.

[CJ]

MPN: Well... since you asked...

Madson's ERA+ in his rookie season was 192 in 52 games. He came back down to earth in 2005 with an ERA+ of 106 although he still had a solid WHIP of 1.253.

In 2006, Madson was yanked back and forth from starter to reliever. It was, by far, his worst season with an ERA+ of 82. It's clear Madson is not a starter.

In 2007, he became a full-time reliever. In 2008, it's clear he's settled in to the set-up role for which he's most suited.

And against Tampa, according to MLB.com Gameday, Madson's fastball topped out at 97 with the majority falling between 94 and 96. Perhaps that's not fast enough for you.

[CJ]

MPN: Ryan Madson is already a Phillie at a reasonable cost and won't cost us a first round draft pick. Juan Cruz will cost a large multi-year contract and cost us a first round draft pick.

Where does that factor into your ERA+ computations?

You pretend as though Juan Cruz is the only set-up man in the free agent market for the next two years!

[MPN]

It's not about the speed. Sheesh. Point to one example of me using that as a metric above. You can't. Parse the data however you'd like. I'd rather examine the data alongside observation. Obviously our opinions diverge.

[clout]

I'd like to have BOTH Cruz and Madson for 2009.

[MPN]

A. Cruz is available now. B. We will have the last pick in this year's amateur draft. C. We control Madson this year, but not next, and his value will never be higher. D. See above.

[MPN]

clout: Yes, I am not opposed to having them BOTH if Burrell re-signs. If Burrell doesn't re-sign though, and you want to go a non Value Village route on filling LF, however, then Madson is the best chit to get a solid return on IF we sign Cruz.

[CJ]

MPN: My apologies, that was bob pointing to a problem with Madson's speed, not you.

How much do you think Cruz is worth?

[ae]

I really think all the Boras-fueled Madson is the new Rivera hype is just that--hype. he says this about all his clients, just look at his comments about the (utterly done) Jason Varitek this offseason.

assuming Madson pitches well in 2009, he'll get a solid payday as a free agent. but he's not going to pull down some enormous contract, simply because he's never been a capital-C Closer. I'm trying to find an example of a guy who was always used in a setup role and then signed a big contract to close for someone else, but it simply doesn't happen that often.

my guess is he gets 3-4 years for $5M, maybe $6M if he's lucky. maybe that's still too much to pay for an 8th inning guy, but I really doubt that he's getting closer money in 2010.

[MPN]

3 years, $10-12 million probably.

[ae]

also, I don't think Madson really has that much value in a trade for exactly the reasons that posters like MPN want to trade him: he's a FA next year, and he's "only" a setup man.

I don't know that you'd get a better deal for Madson than, say, the Nationals did for Jon Rauch. (you could maybe even argue that Rauch was a more valuable player than Madson because of his history as a bullpen horse and his lack of injuries.)

[ae]

3 years, $10-12 million probably.

yeah, no way. none.

[ae]

I mean seriously, $12M/year? for a guy with five career saves*? if that's what you're worried about, relax.

(* not that I put much stock in the idea of saves as something really special, but GMs do.)

[MPN]

ae: Yes, obviously Boras is hyping up his client, but it is hype in a two steps forward, one step back type approach that will cost more than he'd otherwise go for. If he can improve his K/9 rate this coming year, then maybe Madson might be worth that kind of resource outlay. But again, if we re-sign Burrel, then I am happy to take both Cruz and Madson for this year -- but then Madson probably slips back to the 7th inning.

[CJ]

MPN: Madson has a better career ERA+ than Cruz. Madson has a lower career WHIP than Cruz. And although Cruz has a better strike out rate, he's also much wilder. In the last two seasons, Madson gives up about 3 walks per 9 innings pitched while Cruz gives up 5 walks per 9 innings pitched. Finally, Madson is two years younger than Cruz and just hitting his prime.

I guess I don't see the sense in dumping Madson for Cruz at this point.

[CJ]

MPN: I'm confused... was the 3 years, 10-12M for Cruz or what you think Madson will command? And is that 10-12M per year or a total contract?

[MPN]

3 years, $10-12 million for Cruz. Madson, I think, will command about $4 million in arbitration/raise this year. That price will probably go up. ERA+ is nice, but I'd rather have a high K/9 rate to compliment it.

[MPN]

ae: 3 years, $10-12 million means 3 years at $3.3-4 million per year, not $10-12 million a year.