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Posted by J. Weitzel at 11:47 PM | Permalink
We are the World Fvcking Champions!
We are the World Fvcking Champions!
We are the World Fvcking Champions!
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 05:48 PM
And actually I was really happy about the fact that I think today made Philly and its fans look great.
I was right near Broad and Locust and I gotta say that there were more people than I could have ever imagined. You get the impression that the players truly understood how much the average Philadelphia fan cared, and how much this championship changed so many lives in the Delaware Valley.
In terms of sheer numbers, I've heard estimates of people at the parade and at both stadia for the rallies ranging from 1-3 million. That, coupled with the fact that I'm sure all of us know dozens of people who currently reside in the Phillies diaspora who would have killed to get back to Philly to witness the parade with their own eyes, really should make it clear to the athletes in Philadelphia how special it is to represent this city on the diamond, field, court, or ice.
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 05:50 PM
Didn't get to go (had to work) but the whole thing was amazing looking! The players were impressed you could tell. Just shows what great fans we have here. So many years of futility. We DESERVED this even more than the players.
James L (Forever a Phillies fan!) |
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 05:54 PM
I saw a few minutes online, and it looked like PtB was having the time of his life
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 05:58 PM
Who wants Pat Burrell resigned? Personally I'd rather not have him back. He's too inconsistent. His upper cut swing makes me cringe and it seems like his legs are going to fall off whenever he runs. Rather have Manny Ramirez. I realize he might have a very negative impact on the chemistry of the team but I would hope he'd want to play here because of Cholly. Hopefully he could keep him in line.
I'm pretty sure the Phillies ownership wouldn't pay for him anyway....
James L (Forever a Phillies fan!) |
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 06:02 PM
took in the parade @ city hall today...certainly not the best spot for getting a good view but a great location for extremely happy fans and extremely civil celebrations. i observed nothing but mountains of good cheer.
my playoff beard was officially and triumphantly sheared off after i returned today. while i'll no longer be able to panhandle for a second income, at least women won't recoil in disgust quite as much anymore. woohoo!
here are a couple photos i took...enjoy!
politics & baseball
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 06:04 PM
Thanks bathtuhippo! Great pics.
James L (Forever a Phillies fan!) |
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 06:10 PM
I am still on an insane natural high.
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 06:12 PM
Good pix, hippo!
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 06:21 PM
Hey, we need to give Ryan Howard some support against these Hollywood pretty boys in this poll. Sean Avery is a jackass:
S.D. Jones |
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 06:24 PM
i have to call BS - how can you possibly think the mets were as good as the phillies, simply based on the bullpen? the phillies has one of the more dominant pens in recent baseball history, particularly with the emergence of madson. the mets had one the very worst in baseball.
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 06:36 PM
I love these sad, bitter Mets fans. It's so clear we're in their heads. They've choked two years in a row and yet there they are, watching OUR FVKING PARADE!!!! There they are, on our World Series Champion Blog!!!!!
Mets fans are awesome. They make this so much sweeter.
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 06:38 PM
I'm not sure I'd call it an inferiority complex, but I do think what you're seeing in the (rare) comments re: the Mets is just a reaction to the lack of belief anyone outside of the fanbase had in this team all year (even when they were up 3-1 with 3.5 innings to play.)
The Mets are a natural target in this context because of the last two years and the reactions to the Santana signing. Whatever you want to call it, I don't see the problem. The Phils have been celebrating for two days and these comments are rare. Anyone watching the coverage of just these playoffs can understand why some players feel the need to express a little F you.
clout - that Utley play was amazing. Would love to see a compilation of the great defensive plays of the playoffs. Utley had quite a few. Here's hoping he wins the GG this year.
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 06:40 PM
I have to call bullshit....
Dude, are you serious? I would imagine that today is another slow day at Metsblog.
I was crushed that I could not be at the parade today. As expected, I received a steady flow of text message and picture messages from the parade route. Although I was working in the Pocono Mountains and was unable to make the two hour trip to center city, I felt the love that this city has for this team. Never have I been so proud to wear the red and the white. No one, and I mean no one, can take this experience away from us.
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 06:44 PM
Just to vent for a minute or two...
My wife & I were excited to go to the parade & we had 100 level seats behind home plate for the rally as well. We got to a SEPTA regional rail station around 10:30 this morning, where trains usually arrive every hour. We got to see 2 of them drive by before one stopped around 12:45. We realized that we'd probably miss the parade, so we decided to just take the Broad Street line to CBP. However, when we hit the Walnut Street station, they made an announcement that all south bound service was being stopped & everyone had to exit the trains. When we went above ground, as expected, the parade was long gone. So thanks to SEPTA, we missed both the parade & the rally. Awesome.
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 06:47 PM
And I could listen to Harry's call of the final strike of the World Series another five hundred times and it will not get old, EVER.
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 06:48 PM
MLB.com is currently replaying the Phillies 4 wins. It's late in Game 1 right now.
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 06:51 PM
bap -- I definitely don't have any animosity towards Rowand; in fact, I truly appreciate how hard he played when he was in Philadelphia. However, I also don't feel any sympathy for him in terms of missing out on playing for this team. Like I said before, he made his choice, and it was money over winning. Even though he obviously couldn't have known that we'd win the Series this year, there's no way he could look at the Giants' roster and think that they had a reasonable shot at being competitive this year. I don't necessarily blame a guy for taking the money -- there's really a pretty small window for a professional athlete to make the kind of money that they can command -- but I also won't feel bad for them if they make that choice and it results in them spending their careers on mediocre teams.
The Other Kevin |
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 07:10 PM
Oh, and as far as the Mets and our supposed inferiority complex goes, if there is anything to it, I suspect that it's a reaction to New York & the media's vast, enormous *superiority* complex. New York, more than any other city (by far, actually) overrates itself to a stunning degree. NY (and Boston, to a somewhat lesser degree) have no idea how tired everyone else in the country gets of hearing about you. News flash: no one cares. If most of the media wasn't based there, they wouldn't care either.
The Other Kevin |
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 07:15 PM
Ron and Fez Show on XM, Ron (from philly, phils fan for those who don't know) telling a great story about the phils win and his dad. sums up things nicely (oh and some curse words just to warn you)
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 07:58 PM
Does anyone here happen to know what a 14-game partial ticket plan ends up costing? I know they have to set new prices for next year and there's a $350 deposit per seat...anybody get one this year that can relay what they paid in total?
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 08:04 PM
Phils08 - There's no discount on partial season plans, so figure out the face value of the seats you'd want & multiply by 14. Or, at least, that's how our Sunday plan worked.
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 08:12 PM
stjoehawk: SEPTA had a total meltdown. Every leading official yesterday urged the fans to not drive, to take public transit. Many of those who did missed the parade. The roads were nearly empty. Anyone who drove had no problems.
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 08:34 PM
Parade was absolutely amazing! I've been walking around with this stupid grin since Wednesday (along with about 1-2 million others today), and it feels great!
Only downside, I miss the games already...
Now I get to listen to all Iggles, All the time (ugh)...or for the next 106 days.
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 09:07 PM
Wow, Chase, you like to use the F word as much as I do. Of course, I don't often drop one in front of THOUSANDS of KIDS or on national TV, but hey at least you're gonna get some YouTube fame out of your bomb.
Thank you, Phils, for a great post-season!!!
Larry the Weatherman |
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 09:18 PM
JV- I miss the games too. I'm already ready for the next game thread, but we will have to wait a bit.
But this time, that wait is accompanied by a world fvcking chamionship, as one great Chase Utley would say. Just real quick, reflecting back on what exaclty happened this season, it's just amazing. We had many ups, many downs, many concerns, many joyous memories, many lows, but much more highs. This is what makes the season so great. If we always did well, and won 162 games a season, well, it would just get boring. Its the trials and tribulations that make this so fulfilling. Ryan Howard struck out at the low and away breaking constantly, Brett Myers continued to show his head is all over the place with minor league trip and the blowup with Charlie, Chase fialed to hit with RISP all year, Geoff Jenkins and Pedro Feliz were not the best of signings considered the amount of money they recieved, Eaton was awful, Kendrick faded, J-Roll called us frontrunners and didn't hustle at time, Werth couldn't hit righties and Dobbs still stinks with the glove, and you know what, we won the World Series.
And I would do all over again in a heartbeat.
Indiana Sarge |
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 09:23 PM
As a constant reader and very infrequent poster I wanted to share some of my thoughts as this magical season has come to an end.
I'm a partial season ticket holder and as such, I've been to a lot of games this year. I can honestly say that back in July and August I NEVER thought this would have happened.
A team without a regular who hit .300, with its "Ace" winning 14 games and the number 2 starter spending over a month in the minors getting his act together did not seem to be on the verge on winning a championship.
I've been a Phillies fan since 1971. I remember my dad waking me up to see the end of Rick Wise's no-hitter. I thought I'd seen everything. Wow, was I wrong.
Through everything I thoroughly enjoyed reading all the posts on this blog and sharing the peaks and valley of a crazy season with everyone here.
And yet now, at the end of it all, I have this very bittersweet feeling. 2008 is now officially in the books and nothing like this will ever happen again.
Thanks again Beerleaguers. We're WORLD FVCKING CHAMPIONS!!!
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 09:30 PM
To paraphrase Otis Nixon, it don't get no better than that.
I truly feel badly for those who thought they were being smart by taking Septa. They did a great job with extra service during the World Series, but today was a debacle, even by their standards.
I found a parking spot at 6th & Fitzwater and hoofed it over to Broad & Washington. No parade yet, so I threaded the back streets up to Locust, but despite my best efforts I didn't get close to Broad as the cheering began to swell. I had a ticket for the CBP ceremonies, so I again wisely didn't bother with the trains and started hightailing it south on 13th. By the time I got to Oregon Ave., I realized I had beat the slow-moving parade there with room to spare. I watched about 65 police vehicles, Pat Burrell's Farewell Float, some buses with unidentifiable VIPs, and finally four Phillie flatbeds roll by around 3:00.
I was a bit surprised that only Burrell got to ride alone, while everyone else was lumped together like they were on one of the Duck tours. That aside, everything about today was beautiful. Phillies everything, everywhere. When I was growing up watching this team, it was out of style like an old rerun of Dancin' on Air. People resented the Phillies. People only seemed to have nasty things to say about them if they talked about them at all. People had most definitely fallen all the way out of love with this baseball team between 1980 and now. Even those who continued to love them, like myself, griped about them incessantly. Now everyone invades the Eagles stadium and fill it with red. Here's what gives: it's not just the idea of winning - it's the concept of YOU DID NOT LET US DOWN. We care so goddamn much and you came through for us. You earned this love back.
Speaking of love - once in the stadium, I continued to marvel at the outpouring of affection for Charlie Manuel. Not since Darren Daulton has this city done a total turn-about for a member of the Phillies; almost as if people want to go out of their way to let him know, we were wrong, we're sorry, we get you now, and you're one of us.
Manuel's speech was one of the best, but I actually found the most moving speaker to be Brett Myers. He was sincere and humble in his thanks to the fans, and it's clear that he feels extremely appreciative to not have been booed out of town at times when he knew that could have been the case. His remarks, perhaps more than anything else I've witnessed from the guy, showed me a certain maturity which gives me hope that he can be more of a solid presence on this team than he's shown to this point in his career.
As for Utley's remark - it was wrong and thoughtless but an instant classic all the same.
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 09:33 PM
maybe it was just be, but Shane had a pretty sour look on his face by the end of the speeches, wonder what that was all about.
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 09:59 PM
WORLD PHUCKING CHAMPIONS - the t-shirt
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 10:03 PM
That didn't take long!
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 10:05 PM
Wow, what a parade. What. A. Parade. Must have been a couple million people there, and they all took the train. Which broke.
I took a metric buttload of pics, if anyone's interested in amateur shots: share.shutterfly.com/action/welcome?sid=0AZt2rdw3cN2LFDA
But man. What FUN.
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 10:20 PM
Lol! clout self-confirms once again his own opinion that he's a genius - as if he's the only one who commented on Utley's play.
BTW, while it was a great play, the throw was off-line, and Ruiz made an excellent play on the tag out. I hope that all the Debbie Downers will get off of Ruiz's case next year.
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 10:29 PM
Whoops, wrong URL. That was for one pic..
Yeah, great block by Ruiz, or as McCarver calls him, "Rooeys."
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 10:44 PM
What a day. What a year.
Brian Baughan |
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 10:54 PM
My wife and I had Patco electronic passes, so we got into town without much trouble. We watched the parade at Broad & South. Train cars were crowded for the return to Jersey, but again, no real problems.
I'm very glad we went. Anyone could see that the players were genuinely moved by the huge crowd. I think they understood just how important their success was for this region, and how much the WS win meant to those of us who have lived and died with them over the years. This was a very proud day for Philadelphia, and for the baseball team which represents us. I don't know that we had the most talented team, but the Phils were the team with the most heart and the biggest cojones when it counted most.
I can't wait to go to the Bank next April, so I can see that World Championship banner waving with Center City's skyline for a backdrop. What a beautiful sight that'll be!!!
Haddon Heights Harv |
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 10:56 PM
Phils declined the options on Gordon and Taguchi tonight, essentially kicking both out to the curb.
Phils to Flash & So, "Tag along in the parade, then don't let the door hit you in the butt on the way out."
Larry the Weatherman |
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 10:56 PM
@Larry -- seems harsh of course. but it allows Gordon to collect $1MM just to retire if he'd like and So pockets 125K plus his World Series share for his trouble.
Not a bad curb to be kicked to.
mike cunningham |
Friday, October 31, 2008 at 11:19 PM
it's been a while since anyone here mentioned it...
But We'Re WORLD CHAMPIONS...
WORLD FvCKING CHAMPIONS!!!
mike cunningham |
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 12:28 AM
Larry - wait. what? so you think the Phils should spend even more money to keep So and Flash on the team next year? Because what you call "kicking them to the curb" is wrong?
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 12:30 AM
I think Larry's point about "kicking to the curb" had to do with the timing of the Phils' decision about them, not the decisions themselves. At least, that's what it seems like to me. I can't see anyone being bothered by those two bring cut loose.
Anyway, I watched the parade today online in my SoCal office and spent the whole time wishing I was back in Philly. I live in LB and I have no idea if Utley's family is still around here. If so, I should make a trip to their house and put a WORLD FRACKING CHAMPIONS sign out front of their house.
Damn, the high from game 5.67 is still with me. I can't wait for the off-season debates about PtB and Moyer. Are there any other major roster issues facing the team?
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 12:57 AM
cjp -- other than arbitration issues, I don't think so. The question, of course, is going to be whether or not you try and lock up Howard and Hamels to long term contracts. To my mind, Hamels is a no-brainer, and I'd be inclined to try and sign him to a 10 or 12 year deal. I'm on the fence with Howard, though. Of course I like his power & RBI numbers, but I'm not so enamored with his defense, age, and the idea of whether or not his body will hold up. I hate to say it, but I think I'd be more tempted to continue to go through arbitration with him and consider a trade as he nears free agency. I'd say sign him to a three or four year deal, but I have the idea that he'll be looking for something more long term. I'm very much on the fence with this, though, and wouldn't be really upset if they did decide to sign him long-term.
As for PtB, I'd love to have him back, though I admit that some of that desire is sentimental. If the money & years were right, I'd say sign him. Barring any efforts to go after Manny or Holliday, and I don't see either happening, I'm not sure you're going to get anything that comes close to replacing Pat's production in the lineup. The defensive hit in LF is brutal, though.
Personally, I think that resigning Moyer, should he wish to return, is also a no-brainer. With his pitching style, I really do believe that he can play until he's 50.
The Other Kevin |
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 01:57 AM
I was at McGillans in Philly tonight and they played "we are the champions." It started to hit me. I'm sorry if I sound like a little kid, saying this over and over and over again, but this is the most amazing thing ever. Clearly the best day of my life.
I only wish all of the Phillies fans in the diaspora could have been here to celebrate with us today and for the next few months. They say the parade was attended by a couple million, but I felt like even more were there in spirit because of people who post on this blog, as well as people who I know in my heart would have killed to be in Philly for the celebration today.
I drank a few yuenglings tonight for all you phans out there that I wish could join in the celebration.
Just know that the next time you go to Citizen's Bank Park, you will see a red "2008" flag right next to the "1980" banner.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 02:09 AM
In case anyone's interested, iTunes now has the NLDS, NLCS & WS games available for purchase. Personally, I'm planning on re-watching them when we hit a slump or something next season, to remind myself that this team is *never* out of it as long as there's still baseball to be played.
World Champions. It still seems like a dream.
The Other Kevin |
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 04:49 AM
Went to the CBP event.
Yeah, they mentioned the Mets. And the Brewers. And the Dodgers. Dont' recall a mention of the Rays.
And Mets trolls are the only ones who show up here. They're so jealous, it's great!
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 06:22 AM
Jim Caple has lost all credibility and respect- article.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 07:16 AM
Very early in this season, I finally let go of the angst that sets in every year - the feeling that we'll never quite get back to the top. I decided to just enjoy the ride, wherever it went. I guess I picked the wrong year to be philosophical about it.
I didn't make it home for the parade. I did make it home to watch the Phils lose their last interleague game with my dad the day he died. Fvcking typical, no? I can't imagine how he would have reacted to teh Phils finally winning it all. Probably would have blown out the speakers on that old solid state radio. Savor it, folks. I'm optimistic it will happen again next year. But, reallistically, many of us may not live to see another one.
Hugh Mulcahy |
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 07:53 AM
to whomever said Shane looked pissed by the end of the ceremony - i think he was just cold. it was sunny and nice for most of the ceremony, and towards the end the shade and wind came. i think he was still in a tshirt. it got freezing down there for those who weren't bundled up.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 07:59 AM
according to the daily news, burrell rejected a 2 year, $22 million dollar deal. love ya pat, have fun playing for an american league team.
that's a lot of money for a guy who can't run.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 08:33 AM
Gillick's contract expired on Friday. Maybe Flash's did as well. If so, it was only a coincidence that it also happened to be parade day. If not, I can see what you mean.
Love that red 2008 flag. Is the flag the baseball Stanley Cup moreso than that pointy trophy? I think so.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 09:29 AM
Mets fan here. First off, Congrats, Your team is everything our team isn't.
My friend is a Met fan like myself, and last night said he thinks the Mets are better than the Phillies. I must of called him a moron at least ten times.
But what's with all the Met talk? Philly is playing a big hand in glorifying New York. Especially that announcer.
Weakside rejection |
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 10:40 AM
Ya hear what you wanna hear, Mets fan. If you were a Dodger fan you'd be complaining about the coupla mentions of the Dodgers.
Face it, you lose two straight down to the wire division races to a team 90 miles away from you after proclaiming your superiority during BOTH seasons ("We're too bored to play hard") you're bound to hear about it during your long offseason.
Congrats on playing us tough the last two seasons. Your team is everything ours isn't, I agree.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 10:48 AM
Face it? lol Don't make me break out the lexapro...
Weakside rejection |
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 11:02 AM
1) I think it's going to take at least three years to get PtB back, and I'm not sure if the Phils are willing to do that. I'm also not sure if I blame them, though they'd damn well better have a good plan for replacing those HRs, RBIs & OBP.
2) Hats off to the Mets fans who have posted here (and haven't been trolls). I'm very happy that we've got such a good rivalry going here, and I truly hope that both teams remain competitive for years to come. It makes the season so much fun when you have someone to root against and for your team to play big games against.
The Other Kevin |
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 11:12 AM
Thoughts about the complaints about the television ratings for the series:
Everyone will admit that sloppy play and weather dampened casual fan interest. However, I think its is even more worrying for MLB when ESPN, FOX, et al. have been increasingly pushing for their "chosen" market playoff match-ups. This makes all the business sense in the world considering that the media spends 90% of their time talking about 10% of the teams. For 162 regular season games, this biased coverage sells.
But when New York, Boston, Los Angeles, and to a lesser extent Chicago, fall out of the playoffs, it's a little rich to hear ESPN whine about ratings that they have directly influenced. Runners LOB and cowardly commissioners aside, the eyeballs weren't there in the first place due to expectations set during the summer.
Moving foward, it will be interesting to see how MLB's new television network divides their time. Will they cater to the big market teams or the league as a whole?
joe l |
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 11:23 AM
My photos from the parade --
I was in the first row of folks at Broad and Mifflin.
Clout is right -- while the celebration was great, city officials should be blamed for pointing folks to a hampered public transit system. The roads were clear yesterday. I live four blocks from the parade and there were several spots in the area for people to park -- for free.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 11:44 AM
I look at the Burrell decision as sort of a more expensive equivalent of what happened with JC Romero last year. When we resigned Romero, everyone gasped that we had seriously overpaid for a reliever who had one great year but was essentially a LOOGY. The detractors were right. We did seriously overpay but, at the same time, he filled a critical need and if we hadn't overpaid for him, there was a very good chance that need would have gone unfilled.
Burrell has some serious flaws in his game. He can't run. He can't field. He hits for low average. He strikes out too much. He goes through enormously long stretches where he's completely useless at the plate. And he'll turn 32 next year, coming off an atrocious second half & a season in which his overall average & OBP were well off his recent career norms. 3 years, in the $12 to $14M range seems like a lot to pay for such a flawed player. But that flawed player also gives us 30 homers, 90 RBIs, and 100 walks every year. Where is that production going to come from if we don't resign Burrell? The market for right-handed outfielders is thin, with Manny & Milton Bradley being the only 2 players who would give us Burrell-like production. But Manny will cost $20M and Bradley has so many issues that he doesn't seem worth the risk. Michael Taylor had a huge year at Single A last year &, if he had posted similar numbers at Double A, I'd say the Phillies should just give him the starting LF job & take their chances. But he's still a year away. So who plays left-field if not Burrell?
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 12:04 PM
The Phillies could move Werth to left and play Jenkins in right, or they could get a Jenkins-type player to fill in the outfield. With all the money the Phillies are going to have to pay their arbitration-eligible players, I don't think they can afford to keep Burrell.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 12:06 PM
I spent all yesterday on the parade route, from center city to CBP. PtB and Cholly got the most love from the throng. After those two, the most love was directed to (in roughly decending order) Shane, Harry K, Cole, Jamie, J-roll, Chase, Brett, Ryan, Coste.
The best single moment had to be Chase's now-famous three word pronouncement; followed closely by Cholly's hilariously pathetic attempt at a south philly accent when he said "Yo man, we love you".
Yesterday was an experience of a lifetime.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 12:17 PM
To answer my own question from the previous post, the Phillies would have several options.
Option 1: Screw lefty-righty issues & just sign a decent outfielder (i.e., Abreu, Giles, Griffey, Ibanez), even if it means having an unbalanced lineup.
Option 2: Go after Milton Bradley & take your chances that he won't get injured, have a meltdown, revert to career norms, or otherwise screw up team chemistry.
Option 3: Sign one of the marginal right-handed outfield options like Mike Cameron or Rocco Baldelli & possibly platoon him with Jenkins.
Option 4: Sign a veteran player who isn't really an outfielder, but can still hit & could probably make due in left field (i.e., Nomar, Jeff Kent).
Option 5: Trade for someone.
Option 6: Play Jason Donald in left field.
Personally, I kind of like Option 6. Option 1 would leave the Phillies even more vulnerable than they already are against left-handed pitching. Option 2 is too risky. Option 4 would be ok if I had any confidence that Nomar/Kent could still be plus offensive players, but I don't. Option 5 sounds find, but the Phillies don't have a whole lot in the way of trading chips.
Option 3 is probably what the Phillies will do. Cameron seems like a very strong possibility because the Phillies already dallied with him last off-season. Problem is, as a full-time player, he's a big drop-off from Burrell. He can still hit left-handed pitching, but left-handers only pitch 1/3 of the time and you saw how well Jenkins held up his end of the platoon bargain this year. Do you really want to go down that road again in 2009? Besides, the mediocre Cameron represents the absolute best of the right-handed free agent platoon options. If we don't get him, the remaining options are much, much worse.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 12:25 PM
bap - great summary of LF options. I, too, believe that option 3 is the way the Phils will go. I am cautiously optimistic/hopeful that Jenkins can rebound a bit next year.
Other than Rocco and Cameron, what other OFers of that ilk are available for the Phils to sign? To me, the poster boy for that type of OFer was Reggie Sanders toward the end of his career. He jump from team to team as a temporary LF solution and always seemed to do the job.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 12:36 PM
Somehow I think if all the people that overflowed the public transportation systems had decided to drive and park that the roads would have been open and there would have been available parking...
We've got to do this more often and get the logistics down.
There was a line a block long to get into a CVS on Broad Street 3 hours before the parade was due...too many people, not enough ways to move them around no matter what manner of transport.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 12:52 PM
Today, I find myself sticking "f***ing" in the middle of any two word statement that I make. It just feels right.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 12:53 PM
If the Phillies kicked Gordon and Taguchi to the curb yesterday, how do you describe what they did to Adam Eaton, who is still under contract? Andy Tracy and Mike Cervenak got to ride Toyotas around the ballpark, while Eaton was entirely absent of all mention. Even considering how godawful he was, that seems a bit harsh.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 01:06 PM
Re Eaton. I think the Phils used good judgement there. He would have been boo-ed and would have detracted from the event.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 01:10 PM
getting out of philly yesterday could best be described as nightmarish.
i left work at 1:30 since my boss said to get out when we could. i went down to suburban station to find total chaos. the station was packed so tight that no one could go anywhere. people were standing in line to get on trains even though they had no idea where they were going (where's this train going? "R5 man!" "no this is the R8!" "No it's the R3" "I'm drunk!")
the cops and septa workers had essentially lost control and just gave up trying to direct traffic. one told me where my train line was and it wasn't even the right line. i saw a girl with a cape lying face down in the station, on what i think was her own vomit. i several other large dudes passed out laying sprawled out in the station. there was a group of kids that couldn't have been more than 12-13 years old drinking out of brown paper bags and abusing and verbally harassing a homeless man. they had some of the foulest mouths i've ever heard on little white kids. i decided to abandon suburban and go for market east. the streets were still overrun by people (and a man wearing a pink pony outfit with a pink chase utley jersey over it, drinking out of a bottle of Stoli), it felt like there was some sort of outbreak and the city had broken into total lawlessness. people were openly drinking in the streets, drug deals were being done in the open with no pretense of hiding it, trash was piled high everywhere, people were standing in the middle of market street with cars trying to get through to no avail.
after i got to market east, the lines were still crazy, but even less order. there were next to no announcements, the workers had no clue where to send me, and there were just large masses of people asking and begging others to tell them how to get out of the city. i just went to the area where the train i would take would normally show up and waited hoping i was right. an hour later around 3:30, the 1:45 train finally showed and i was able to sneak on. then they proceeded to cram everyone into the train until they couldnt move and people were essentially standing on top of each other. then more people tried to force their way on and a cop came on and pulled our her nightstick and demanded everyone move back or she would move them back with force. and all that fuss to get 3 more people on the train. then there was a fight between some teenagers on the trip back. i finally got off the train at 6, the trip took nearly 2 hours longer than it normally did thanks to all the people.
the parade was nice to see and all, but if i hadn't been forced to work, i never would have wanted to be in philly yesterday. that was one of the most fvcked up and chaotic things i've ever seen. when i saw two guys wearing Mickey Morandini and Rico Brogna jerseys, I knew this was out of hand.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 01:11 PM
Vote for Best part of Phillies' victory parade here:
Captain Lou Albano |
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 01:14 PM
You know, it might have been Eaton's choice not to be a part of the celebration. I know that were I in his position, having basically contributed nothing to the team, I would be a bit embarrassed to be a part of the parade. The real telling moment will be whether or not he's voted a WS share.
The Other Kevin |
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 01:26 PM
bap, Manny will cost more than 20 million. Word is he wants ARod type money - 25MM for 4 -6 yrs.
If that happens, expect Burrell to get at least 13-16 MM per year - if he waits to let Manny set the market. This is probably going to be Burrell's strategy, at least it would be mine if I were Burrell.
Bradley is an option, but as you correctly point out, it's uncertain which Bradley the Phils would be getting.
The reason the Phillies probably don't want to go more than 2 years is because Michael Taylor could potentially replace Burrell. It certainly isn't going to be Greg Golson.
Whatever you think, if the Phillies did indeed offer Burrell 2 yrs/ 22 MM because they want to replace him with Taylor, that's a lowball offer, even for a 2 year deal.
If they really think they need him for those 2 years, then they should offer him more moeny for a shorter deal, as the Dodgers are mulling for ManRam.
I for one, am on record as saying unless the Phillies re-sign Burrell, or a RH power bat that can replace his production, the window of opportunity may close. Werth, Ruiz and Feliz will not be able to carry the load against LHP.
This whole Burrell dilemna really sheds light on how one bad contract can kill a team's ability to compete.
The contract that represents the problem for the Phillies going into 2009 belongs to one Adam Eaton. He's owed 8 million next season, and I'll wager today that he doesn't even make the Phillies 2009 rotation.
If the Phillies had that money to spend, they might be able to re-sign Burrell.
Right now it looks like Pat won't be back, but you never know how the offseason market is going to develop. If all other viable options in the FA and trade market drop from the board, the Phillies might feel compelled to bite the bullet and bring Burrell back.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 01:44 PM
Hey everyone. First timer here. I live in Philly and am a huge Phils fan. But I write/blog for Madison Square Garden's website up in New York, where I primarily write about the Mets. Life's ironies rule sometimes. :)
Anyways, I just compiled a list of quotes from Mets blogs you guys will all probably love.
Please check it out.
Gregg G |
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 01:50 PM
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 01:57 PM
bonehead: I considered that it may have been Eaton's choice, and both parties surely knew he would've been booed. You have to feel a little badly for the guy. These were/are his teammates, and though he was mostly bad in 2008, he contributed more good than people like Andy Tracy or Greg Golson.
I would be extremely surprised if the Phillies pursued either Bradley or Ramirez. They have a winning clubhouse right now, and throwing either one of those guys in the mix, particularly on the heels of what Burrell brought to the table in that role, strikes me as something they won't consider.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 02:09 PM
On a more euphoric note, I have refrained from posting the last couple of weeks, as I, like many Phillies fans, am still in a state of shock and disbelief that our beloved Phillies actually won the WORLD "EFFIN" SERIES.
I always believed they were good enough, but after so many years of disappointment
- rooting for 90 loss teams, sitting in a quiet Vet with less that 15,000 other die hards, the recent years of near misses, and last season's swift exit from the playoffs -
it really still is sinking in.
THEY WON! THEY EFFIN WON!!!!
And the best part about is is that this is a likeable team - from Chollie down to every man on the roster. Even the guys that got out of hand (like Myers and Rollins) are appreciative and contrite.
The Utleys, Burrells, Howards, Vics, Durbins Madsons, Dobbses, Jenkins, Eyres and others...
.... all likeable great guys.
And most especially Jamie Moyer, who gets traded to his hometown team in what seems like the twilight of his career, then a couple of years later the old dog pitches better than 90% of the starters in MLB showing the young pups how it's done, helps his team make it to the playoffs, and gets to the WS for the first time in his career.
Hollywood could not script it any better.
And let's not forget Chris Coste, who toiled in the minors until he was 33, had to put up with adversity even after he made the big club, fights his way back onto the roster and now will have a WORLD SERIES RING to show for it.
That attitude permeated this ballclub - they never quit.
They simply never quit.
That's why they're the World Series Champions.
God bless and good luck to them all for bringing this joy to us.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 02:20 PM
Great testimonial, AWH. One thing that made this victory as special as it was, besides the sheer length of time since the last one, is the buildup of near-misses in recent seasons. Fans *wanted* to believe so badly in the previous five years, and the team seemed so close without coming out a winner. '03, '05, '06, just missing that wild-card by a sliver, and '07, finally making the playoffs but getting blasted right out of them. This was the year that our excitement and belief and passion finally paid off.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 02:26 PM
That '03, '04, '05 to '08 buildup and frustration has a lot of similarity of feel to '76, '77, '78 to '80. I know we made the playoffs in '76--'78, and not in '03--'05, but the evolution of the team and the buildup is still quite similar. Maybe even eerie, but absolutely awesome.
Hope SE |
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 03:16 PM
Not that a guy named "Chase Utley" needs a nickname, but after yesterday, he will forever been know as Chase "F*****g" Utley.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 03:27 PM
did anyone notice an absence of chooch during the ceremony? did i just miss him?
Is that not him on the left?
Maybe he had to use the toilet.
chooch lives! |
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 04:00 PM
Anyone else here been walkin around the last couple days with a big smile on their face?
I saw some Mets fan friends of mine who tried to get me down, couldn't do it. I have an obscene amount of work to get done by the end of next week, can't get me down. I actually was walking around my apartment last night and stubbed my knee really hard on the table - it hurt like a bitch but I couldn't even get upset.
If this is what winning a championship makes people feel like, I think I can get used to this!
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 04:04 PM
Two things I'd like to see:
(1) Re-sign Moyer for a 1-2 (incentive-laden) deal. Earlier reports were in the ballpark of $8M-10M, and there was a report that Moyer expressed a commitment to be on the team next year. Moyer was the consistent #2 this year, and provides needed flexibility to the team re: Kendrick and Happ.
(2) Avoid arbitration with Hamels. In May, it was reported that more healthy play from Hamels was required before any talks of extension. Well? Kazmir has set the new precedent re: young aces. He's getting ~$18M for this 3 arb years.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 04:12 PM
Does winning the World Series mean that SirAlden was right about Pat Gillick all along?
Deep Thoughts |
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 04:41 PM
In all the discussion of Pat leaving, you have to remember, there has to be another team out there who will pay more for him than we will. I don't know who that team is.
Brian G |
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 07:17 PM
MLBtraderumors lists the Angels, Royals, Blue Jays, A's, Rays, Braves, Mets, Reds, and Giants as possible suitors. This doesn't speak directly to your question, Brian, but I thought I'd throw it out there.
Here's Burrell's PECOTA forecast with this year's included:
08: .259/.389/.508 (25 HR) (actual: .250/.367/.507, 33 HR)
09: .248/.379/.482 (28 HR)
10: .248/.375/.470 (25 HR)
11: .245/.379/.468 (23 HR)
12: .241/.365/.455 (22 HR) (35 years old)
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 07:28 PM
WORLD PHUCKING CHAMPIONS!
Joel G from Los Angeles |
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 08:01 PM
Manny might be the best hitter on the universe, but I just can't picture him in a Phillies uniform, and I don't like what he brings in terms of attention, press, etc. Besides, if you're going to spend Manny Money, just resign Pat.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 08:06 PM
I'm going to be bringing up this point for the entire off-season, but you can't underrate the importance of chemistry.
There no numerical or statistical evidence of great chemistry leading to winning, but after witnessing the 2004 Red Sox team and the aftermath of the winning the World Series, I wanted to relate that situation to the current Phillies team.
First off, I don't want Manny here. There's no denying that he's a phenomenal talent and outside of Pujols and A-Rod is the most feared right-handed hitter in baseball. But this team didn't win on talent alone; no, they won because this team was extremely disciplined, focused, and always sacrificed themselves for the betterment of the team. When you think Manny, you think distractions and a me-first attitude - two attributes which would bring down this team.
The Red Sox won the world series in 2004, and then decided to get cute and tweak their team, thereby disintegrating any semblance of chemistry that was apparent in Boston the season before.
They did not resign Orlando Cabrera and instead brought in Edgar Renteria for more money. They let Trot Nixon, Kevin Millar, Bill Mueller, Mark Bellhorn, Johnny Damon, Pedro Martinez, Derek Lowe, Allen Embree, and Keith Foulke all go. Even though Nixon, Mueller, Bellhorn, and Foulke did not have a ton of success after leaving Fenway, some of that can be attributed to the circumstances that were present in Boston and not other places, which can explain their statistical dropoffs from '04 to later seasons.
The Red Sox wallowed around miserably for most of '05 and '06 (even though they made the playoffs in '05 they really were not a good team) even though they spent more money and attracted more high-profile free agents.
But wait, you say, didn't the Red Sox bounce back and win the World Series this year? Wouldn't the fact that they won it last year negate all of your argument?
Well, the reason they won the Series last year was due to the fact that they had an obscene amount of young talent they could plug into positions vacated by the free agents they let walk after their World Series run in '04. They now have a new team with a new attitude and mantra, led by the likes of Kevin Youkilis, Dustin Pedroia, Jon Lester, and Papelbon. Readers on this website frequently characterize the Phillies farm system and youth movement from "piss-poor" to "pathetic" and many other horribly negative terms, so I think it's safe to say that they don't have the same luxury that the Red Sox had - that of letting their clutch performers from '04 go and replacing them with other ready options.
Essentially, my opinion - and one I will vehemently defend this entire off-season - is that I want as much of this current Phillies team as possible to remain intact. You can keep replacing pieces from a championship squad with "better" options, but the more you tweak, the more you escape from what actually got you into the position in the first place. Bring back Burrell.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 08:44 PM
So many mindless posts, but its posts like zp's on his ride home from the parade that keep me coming back. Where else can you find quality stuff like that? please post more often zp.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 10:01 PM
BAP has been right about Burrell for awhile, while many posters were shocked and outraged at the notion of re-signing him for 15 or 16 million per.
I have news for you guys: Burrell will get at least 15M per for at least 3 years. If you think that's an outrage, tell me who replaces his .950 OPS. If you can't, then shut the f**k up.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 10:07 PM
There are Phillies prospects that I like and some that I hate (Golson) but it is interesting to read an expert with a similar view on the Phillies lust for superb toolsy athletes who are devoid of baseball skills and unlikely to acquire them (from John Sickels):
"The Phillies are very tools-oriented when it comes to position players. I can understand it, but sometimes I think it gets excessive. Drafting Collier AND Gose AND Hewitt is putting an awful lot of chips on one class of player. Personally I prefer a broader approach, mixing tools guys with more polished players too. I have a lot of skepticism about Hewitt at this point.
On the other hand, I like the pitching they picked up this year, and they aren’t afraid to take chances on guys like Drabek and Shreve that other teams might shy away from. They’ve shown guts when drafting."
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 10:14 PM
Deep Thoughts - Interesting question and the answer is yes that SirAlden was largely right about Gillick even if his continued support for the Abreu and Garcia trades was largely nuts.
I ask you this - If the Phils don't play stellar ball the last two weeks of the season and go 12-3 to win the NL East and failed to make the playoffs, is Gillick's tenure largely remembered as a failure? Funny how about these things kind of work out.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 10:17 PM
The irony here is none of the core Phillies stars were "toolsy." Howard, Burrell and Utley were polished college baseball players. Rollins was a little guy with great baseball skills. Victorino was a great athlete, but he's not a guy you'd label toolsy. He's little and had baseball skills from day one: Look at his K/BB ratio in his first year as a pro. Golson and Hewitt can only dream about such stuff.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 10:20 PM
Now that the parade has passed and this season begins to slowly fade into a fond memory. I was thinking back to this year and the Phils basically played really good baseball for about 2 stretches this year during the regular season:
May 25 - June 8 (went 12-2 with a incredibly solid homestand that included the 20-5 mashing of the Rockies on May 26th I was at which still is the most crazy offensive output I have ever seen from the Phils' in-person)
Sept 13 - Sept 28 (went 12-3 including the now infamous 4-game sweep of Milwaukee that really saved their season and resulted in Yost get fired the day after the Phils left town).
Basically, I think the '08 team will be largely remembered as the '80 team is by baseball historians and local fans. A team that had come off several seasons of failures and marred by a summer lull only to come alive in Sept and roar throw the playoffs and win a World Series against a feisty yet less than dominant team.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 10:21 PM
MG: I disagree because you ignore half of SirAlden's point. He said Wade was a total failure and Gillick was the savior.
I made this point earlier: Wade built the core of this team. Gillick improved it at the margins. Both deserve praise for this championship, but the most talent clearly came during the Wade era.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 10:23 PM
Clout - I can't believe that no one is pointing out the obvious - the day the Phils resigned Lidge this year was the day that Burrell future's with this team was sealed.
The real issue with the Phils' payroll next year isn't the arbitration hearings and the likely raises for a bunch of decent raises for several players including Howard, Hamels, Victorino, and Madson but the nearly $25M tied up in the trio of largely useless players in Eaton, Jenkins, and Feliz.
It is going to be that $25M that is going to prevent the Phils from resigning Burrell (and I don't think the Phils were ever serious about resigning him) or making any moves to significantly improve this team.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 10:25 PM
Clout - I was only talking about SirAlden and his views on Gillick. Savior no but he did significantly overhaul the roster and made the moves that ultimately helped to put the Phils over the top.
The Phils championship this year reminds me of the 2004 Red Sox championship. Epstein got all the credit that year but almost the entire core of the 2004 Red Sox was put together by Dan Duquette who never really got his due from the Boston media because he despised them and the Boston media knocked Duquette every chance they got.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 10:28 PM
The "Phils should considering signing Manny" talk is one of the single ignorant ideas/notions I have heard a while in Philly.
1. Dave Montgomery and Co. still owns this team.
2. The Phils have signed 2 significant free agents in their entire history - Lance Parrish and Jim Thome and both of those moves were made as much for PR/improve standing of the Phils with the media and fans as to actually improve the club.
After winning a WS, the Phils don't exactly need to sign a big FA to have incredibly strong season ticket sales even with the general economy in the crapper.
3. Several actual performance reasons including a player who really should be a full-time DH at this point.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 10:34 PM
Several posters have made comparisons to the 1980 team and they are good ones. Both teams were knocking on the door for several years before they finally broke it down. But there is one BIG difference. When they finally reached the promised land, the 1980 team was already past its peak. Look at the ages of their top players:
Schmidt 30 Howard 28
Bowa 34 Rollins 29
Luzinksi 29 Utley 29
Maddox 30 Burrell 31
McBride 31 Werth 29
Boone 32 Ruiz 29
Rose 39 Victorino 27
Carlton 35 Hamels 24
McGraw 35 Lidge 31
The 1980 team made the playoffs in 1981 and 1983, but those were last gasps. This team has at least 5 more years of being in contention and probably hasn't peaked yet. IF, and that's a big IF, they can keep the team together.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 10:36 PM
That's part of what I was trying to allude to in my post. Not so much about the parallel between Philly and Boston in '04 in terms of the 2 GMs in each situation, but just the fact that there are ample parallels evident between the two teams.
Duquette acquired (via trade or signing) Pedro Martinez, Derek Lowe, Manny Ramirez, Jason Varitek, Johnny Damon and Nomar (I believe).
Although he mistakenly gave away Roger Clemens, thinking his career was over, overall he laid the foundation for the championship that resulted in 2004.
Epstein, meanwhile, like Gillick, got all of the credit for the championship because he was presiding over the squad at that time. Gillick did a fantastic job, I don't want to take away from that. Nonetheless, to say the championship was won by JUST Wade with no help from Gillick, or JUST Gillick with no previous assistance from Wade is absurd.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 10:41 PM
I too have criticized him often, but Feliz as "largely useless?" Pedro will take his Series-winning hit and go home now, thank you very much!
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 10:44 PM
Clout - Completely agree with you about Burrell. Couple of things on Burrell resigning:
- The question I thought all along this year was if a team offers him a 4th guaranteed year. After the 2nd half swoon and a pretty weak WS showing, I still bet that the only team to offer 4 guaranteed years is an AL team that can be guaranteed to move Burrell to a full-time DH in a year or two.
- Burrell has expressed his "love of playing in Philly" but I am willing to bet that like 95% of athletes he chances the biggest payday. The only caveat might be that Burrell doesn't like to DH and has stated several times that he would like to remain in the NL. This is the one thing that I think actually helps the Phils to resign Burrell.
- Phils don't have anywhere near a viable internal replacement for Burrell. They did for Rowand last year in Victorino and why I wasn't sad to see Rowand go when he got the crazy 5 yr/50M+ deal from the Giants.
The Phils basically have another 2-year window to contend with this current team. Beyond 2010, the age and contract situation will force the core of this team to be changed in significant ways.
Ideally, that is why I hope the Phils re-upp both Burrell and Moyer. Figure it would require the Phils to overpay Burrell for 2 years (something like 2 yrs, $29-30M) and give resign Moyer to a 1-yr deal with a decent base ($5-$6M) with upside incentive potential and a mutual option for 2010.
Problem is this likely requires Monty and Co to commit to a payroll of around $115-$120M next year and anybody who thinks this team payroll will increase by $10-$15M this offseason is crazy. It might go up moderately but not by over $10M.
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 10:46 PM
MG - you have a good point about the ups and downs of this season. I think you overstate it, however. The Phils played the final month very well, but the lulls (as a team anyway -- and these were largely on the offense) were largely the exception.
79 days in first.
March/April ; 3 games over .500 (+11 RD)
May: +5 (+50 RD)
June: -2 (+11 RD)
July: +5 (+5 RD)
Aug: +3 (+15 RD)
Sept: +9 (+27 RD)
The pitching was consistently good. RA by month: 121, 125, 101, 121, 100, 111. The offense had more peaks and valleys.
Opening day to June 13: 41-18
June 14 - July 25: 13-21
July 25 - Sept 3: 22-15
Sept 5 - WS: 27-9
very good baseball with the exception of 5 weeks mid-summer. Crazy hot in the last month+ (corresponding with re-emergence of Howard and Rollins, Werth in lineup, removal of Kendrick, arrival of Blanton, among other things.)
Saturday, November 01, 2008 at 10:51 PM
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