Saturday thread: Phillies try to build on Friday's win

Rising young left-handers Cole Hamels and Clayton Kershaw toe the rubber when the Dodgers and Phillies continue their series this afternoon. The Phils took the first game 8-1.

Just a couple notes before heading out for an all-day bachelor party, which includes an afternoon stop at Citizens Bank Park (The groom-to-be is a Philadelphia-born-and-raised Dodgers fan. Yeah, I don’t know, either).

Kyle Kendrick: Good not great. Too many deep counts; he tallied 57 pitches through three innings, but limited the damage with his trademark sinker.

The offense: Los Angeles led 1-0 into the 4th and it looked like more of the same. That changed in hurry. The homers were nice, but I liked the fifth inning best. Greg Dobbs led off with a bunt single, Jayson Werth hit behind the runner with an opposite-field stab, Chris Coste knocked in Dobbs with a rope up the middle. When was the last time we saw three hits in a row? Werth would later win a good battle with Greg Maddux by lifting one into the outfield for a sac fly.

Geoff Jenkins: He’ll undergo an MRI for a hip flexor or quad strain today. We’ll see if they make a roster move. We could be looking at a couple of old favorites like Chris Snelling or T.J. Bohn, who aren’t hitting at LV. I'm ready for shortstop Jason Donald’s bat. Donald homered in Team USA’s bronze medal win. If not Donald, who wouldn't be immediately available since he's wrapping it up in China, maybe outfielder Brandon Watson, who’s swinging a steady bat for Lehigh Valley.

Comments

[king myno]

I've got a TJ Bohner for this injury, as it may force someone's hand somewhere. I've seen enough of Geoff.

[Marc H]

Work counts...get em' on, get em' over, get em' in. The 1976-1978 Phillies never bought into that concept. Pete Rose sold it to the same players in 1980 and they won. Same thing in 1993 (I have never seen a team hit with the bases loaded as much in my life). If this group developes that mentality, they still have a shot. If the don't, then they are cooked and an opposrtunity has slipped away.

[J. Weitzel]

I guess Jenkins suffered the injury legging out the swinging bunt. There's some real evidence this season that Jenkins is washed up. Ideally, RF is manned by a regular, not a platoon, and Jenkins is lefty power off the bench.

Patient ABs wasn't the case yesterday for the first four innings. They were averaging 2.5 pitches per AB against Maddux early.

[Easley Or Bruntlett?]

Is Hamels really a "rising young lefty"? Young lefty, yes; rising, ehhh not so much. He has probably peaked. In any case, he is certainly the best starter the Phils have and when the Mets win the division by three games, all things aside, it will be hard not to fault Cholly for having his ace throw just 11% of the games against the Mets all season.

[king myno]

It's getting to the point where an 8-run game seems more like an aberration than a step in the right direction. I don't expect that again today.

[AWH the RBP]

Your Majesty, Kershaw is a young fireballing stud with a vicious hook. If he's on it could be a long evening.

However, he faced the Phils in LA and they got to him a little bit. He's also pitching in the Zen - not Dodger Stadium.

Hopefully the bats show up again tonight.

[johnnysanz3]

I don't think Hamels has peaked at 24... He still is going to get better...He just started learning a curveball this year that already looks good here and there.

[donc]

I didn't get to see a minute of last night's game. After reading the posts especially from the first few innings, it seems there was a lot of first pitch swinging going on. Obviously, nothing new for our boys. But I wonder if it wasn't in part a reaction to last weeks game against Maddux in San Diego. I seem to remember the Phillies taking a lot of pitches in that game and on this board there were many questioning that approach. Most thought (including me) that normally we would like that approach but this was Greg Maddux who never walks anybody. The result was a 1 run output by the offense that was fortunately just enough to carry the night. I can't help but think maybe the Phils were thinking about how waiting Maddux out hadn't worked the week before and that a lot of times the first pitch you see from Maddux is the best one.

[clout]

Mets fans are very amusing. They come here and boast when things are good and run away and hide, quivering in a corner, when things go bad for their team.

[lekh tizdayen]

Cole Hamels: "But with Philadelphia and the way they go about loving their sports here, they usually go all out to come up with original ways to express it...It makes you proud as a player to be in this city with that kind of fan support." I believe this is what Rollins meant to say, no?

[donc]

I hope they spend the rest of the season quivering in a corner.

[clout]

Here's the ERA+ of 5th starters on the NL contenders:

Cubs, Marquis 94
Brewers, Suppan 94
Dodgers, Maddux 92
Phillies, Kendrick 91
Cards, Pineiro 88
Mets, Pedro 83
D'backs, Owings 76
Marlins, Miller 74

[bay_area_phan]

He has probably peaked? At 24? And after barely more than 2 seasons in the league, in which he has improved every year? That's one of the more ridiculous statements ever made on Beerleaguer.

[lekh tizdayen]

good Hamels interview, don't know if it's been posted:
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/blog/big_league_stew/post/Answer-Man-Cole-Hamels-talks-pink-apes-Survivo?urn=mlb,102858

[clout]

And just for flipper, because he said this wasn't possible, here's Burrell's stats (BA/HR/OB/SLG) this season compared to last 2 seasons.

2006 .258/29/.388/.502
2007 .256/30/.400/.502
2008 .264/29/.388/.546

Pretty damn consistent I'd say, with a little bump in SLG this season due to higher doubles and triples. This may be a result of improved ankle health. This seasons numbers are in 40 fewer ABs than '06 and 50 fewer than '07 so it's fair to expect the HR total to increase.

[lekh tizdayen]

Clout: Interesting stat, but I'd take Miller over Kendrick 100 times out of 100 and still feel like I needed raise the percentage.

[clout]

lekh: I like Miller's potential a lot better than KK's as well. But at the moment Miller isn't nearly as good a pitcher.

[lekh tizdayen]

Clout: granted. But I'd still take my chances with Miller every five days based on talent alone, especially as the games become more meaningful. But you're right, Kendrick is the better pitcher at the moment.

[clout]

lekh: In terms of potential upside this is a very scary rotation: Josh Johnson-Anibal Sanchez-Ricky Nolasco-Andrew Miller-Chris Volstad. I was ridiculed mercilessly by kdon a couple years ago when I mentioned the prospects the Marlins had in the pipeline, but unless injuries intervene, I think the Fish are going to be a handful over the next few years.

[lekh tizdayen]

Clout: I couldn't agree more. Even next year that looks better than Hamels-Myers-Moyer-Blanton-Kendrick, assuming the phillies don't make a change, which, unforunately, doesn't seem likely.

[brio]

Jenkins is this year's David Delucci. If the Phils fall short this season, blame the front office for not improving the team, in addition to the big bats coming up small. Can't fault the pitching.

[bob]

I believe Rollins was also referring to Mets fans when talking about front-runners. When the Mets are going good, their fans become huge fans of BL. When they're not playing well, not so much.

[bay_area_phan]

clout: Unless injuries intervene or the Marlins trade them all away.

[AWH the RBP]

"when the Mets win the division by three games"

Hmmm, a pretty confident statement.

Clout, as I recall, other Mets trolls were on this blog right after the Santana trade, gloating as if the Mets had already won by default.

Their 'silence' here was deafening when the Phils moved into first place, and the "Metsblog Suicide Watch" became an official spectator sport for BeerLeaguers.

[NEPP]

From the previous thread to clout: All I was saying was that KK has gotten roughed up a bit since the AS Break. I'm in the camp that feels that he's still got a bunch of room to grow.

[AWH the RBP]

I was surfing in the archives and found this:

"First off, I am not a Mets fan, I am Marlins fan....................

Posted by: PhillR | Tuesday, January 29, 2008 at 08:43 PM"

I thought PhillR said he was a Phils' fan a couple of threads ago?

[NEPP]

AHAH!!!!

He's been outted!!!

[lekh tizdayen]

What's a Marlin's fan?

[bay_area_phan]

In PhillR's defense, he's not really a troll (Is there even such thing as a Marlins troll?). A troll is someone whose sole purpose is to taunt the regular bloggers, who doesn't really have any intent to engage in a discussion and, when he does engage in a discussion, is biologically incapable of being objective. PhillR doesn't taunt us when the Marlins win, and he's objective to the point of being clinical (some, including I, would say he's actually TOO objective, as he discounts everything that can't be accurately measured by a statistic). So I acquit him of being a troll. In fact, despite his passing comment, I don't really think he's all that big a Marlins fan. If he is, then he's the only die-hard Marlins fan known to mankind.

[NEPP]

It usually looks like an empty orange seat in S. Florida...

[donc]

Which is the larger group? Marlins fans or Sasquatches.

[baxter]

Baseball Prospectus says Hamels peaked and will decline in a few years.

[MG]

If anything, I do think that Kendrick has shown us about all he has to offer. League average guy who most nights will give the Phils a chance to win right now. Maybe I am wrong and Kendrick masters that 3rd pitch which he has experimented with a couple of different variations since coming up last year.

Kendrick should have all the motivation in the world too do that too because that really is the difference between him getting a fat FA contract in a few years/being a marginal guy who might kind of bounce around from team to team for a couple of years.

The real issue is in 2 years when he starts to become arbitration eligible/starts to make bigger dollars. I love Kendrick at $500k a year but no so much when you starts to get north of $5M/year.

[NEPP]

Yeah...I could see that...he's all of 23 afterall...or is he 24?

[AWH the RBP]

Check out THE HATER on you tube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uVn6H3tMQcU

This dude definitely needs a prescription.

"This dude"? Hey maybe it's "THe Dude"?

[dan k.]

i am a mets fan and no gloating here. i look forward to awesome pennant race with you guys. my guess is utley willl heat up in september so my expectation is things wont be until decided the last week(end). perhaps if our race stays intense, the brewers and cards could possible falter allowing us both entry into the fall classic...........

[MG]

baxter - I don't know if Hamels has necessarily "peaked." Every year since he has come up, he has got just a bit better. Even this year, if you look at the peripheral stats he has lowered a couple of important stats slightly.

Almost as importantly, Hamels is on pace to give the Phils around 33-34 starts and 200+ innings. This really hasn't gotten more attention (Hamels W-L record has) but it is frankly more important. For the Phils to win the NL East this year, they needed a healthy and effective Hamels all year.

Can Hamels deliver the a Cy Young when all is said and done? I don't think so because he plays in a hitter's park (CBP) and he just doesn't have a 3rd pitch besides the changeup/fastball to make him into an uber-elite starter. Still, he is a legit "ace" and frankly the first one the Phils have had since Schilling left town several years ago.

[NEPP]

If Kendrick masters a changeup which he's apparently pushing himself to do, he would be a 3/4 guy with his sinker. He's only 24 now (or turning it shortly I believe) and got unexpectedly promoted a full year or so early from the minors. He's had to wing it on 2 pitches and has done a decent job despite that. He could possibly develop his change and be very effective against lefties and then he's a decent guy who'd proababy get an Adam Eaton deal in a few years.

[bay_area_phan]

"Which is the larger group? Marlins fans or Sasquatches."

Maybe if we submitted PhillR's body to a biologist, it would be determined that it's actually just a rubber Halloween suit, like that recent Bigfoot specimen.

[Kevin]

Is Manuel finally figuring out that his lineup need an adjustment? He batted Pat third last night. Apparently, this was because the Dodgers have two lefties out of the pen who they went to frequently last week. I am wondering if that is just spin for a more permanent adjustment. In either case, it is the right move. Burrell has the OBP you need in the three hole.
Now he needs to put Rollins in the five and lead off with the Flyin' Hawaiian. I have had enough of Rollins this year. He regressed right back to his old ways. Swinging at first pitches, swinging at high fastballs, and popping the ball up. He is 3 for his last 36. That is ridiculous and he puts a cherry on top by blaming the fans for the teams lack of heart this year. Short memory for a guy who won the MVP with a lot of help from our chants. They should have given it to Holliday.

[AWH the RBP]

b_a_p, no one called PhillR a "troll".

As I was looking for something else in the archives I ran across that post (which I abbreviated), and recalled a discussion he had where clout accused him of being a Mets fan. If I recall correctly he denied it and said he was a Phils' fan.

I agree with you, that PhillR does try to engage in honest debate and discussion, though many here disagree with him.

[MG]

Can Donald play 2B base? If so, I hope that he gets called up Sept 1st and Bruntlett is relegated to the "use him if Cholly has run out of players in extra innings category or I need a PH for a really slow guy like Burrell or Howard late."

[AWH the RBp]

bap, LOL!

....rubber Holloween suit

[Sophist]

baxter - BP.com's PECOTA page for Hamels has him with between a 3.40 ERA and a 3.75 ERA between 2008 and 2014, a steady K9 between 7.2-7.4, and WHIP between 1.19 and 1.21. The only inconsistency in their forecast for him is that, while they predict he'll make ~30 starts a year every year in that time, they think he'll make 49 starts in 2013 when he's 29.

[bay_area_phan]

Why, pray tell, does Baseball Prospectus say he has peaked? Absent injury, I'm hard-pressed to think of a pitcher who ever peaked at age 24, and in only his 2nd full year in the league. It's absurd.

[NEPP]

How this for periferals:

Hamels has steadily lowered his P/PA, P/IP,while raising his P/GS, and IP per start. I.E. He's not just trying to strike guys out...he's becoming a more effective pitcher who goes deep into games. He's also lowered his BAA and OBP against for 3 straight years...yeah he's peaking alright. Its not all about K/9 afterall.

[MG]

Kevin - Completely agree with both except that JRoll should hit out of the 6th spot tonight and Vic should lead off.

Vic
Werth
Utley
Burrell
Howard
JRoll
Feliz
Ruiz

Chances of seeing this lineup which is the best one if Coste is sitting - near zero. In fact, I have a bad feeling that Cholly put Utley/Howard back-to-back in the lineup tonight.

[bballscientist-]

Hey guys met fan here enjoying the pennant race. Let me just address a couple things

How is Cole Hamels not a rising star? Saying that he's peaked at 24 is one of the most ridiculous things i've ever heard.

Regardless of how well the Mets are playing right now, There is no guarenteee that we are winning the division. The phillies have proved they are gritty, I wouldn't gloat about anything right now.

Just grab some beers, and some popcorn and enjoy this pennant race.

[NEPP]

Hamels has steadily gotten better since he entered the league...BP is ridiculous to say he's peaked right now. If anything, his curve will get better and he will be even more dominant.

[PhillR]

Check the logs, I also said I was a Phillies fan by default as the Marlins become less interesting.

Grew up outside of Philly. Moved to Florida. Duel allegiances. Both of which conclude in rooting against the Mets.

[NEPP]

Which is all that's really important...Important question though: Phillies and Fish are playing in the NLCS: Who do you root for?

[PhillR]

Of course work takes me to both Philly and NYC quite often, so I see games there far more then anywhere else. My favorite park on the east coast is Baltimore's.

[bballscientist-]

If i'm a phillies fan i'd like to see Hamels use the curve more. How about Victorino, He's turnin out to be a hell of a player

[NEPP]

Victorino= A+ Talent, C- Brain...right now...the upside to that is the latter is somthing you can work on with his baseball sense. I like Vic alot and he's steadily improving as he's moving into his peak.

[Sophist]

PhillR - back when I ate them, I enjoyed Baltimore's sausages/hot dogs the most as well.

NEPP - baxter is wrong about BP.com. As I posted earlier, they have him being very consistent between now and 2014.

[Sophist]

NEPP - I wasn't surprised to hear that Vic takes ADD medication (at least if Hamels was being sincere when he said so in his interview with yahoo.)

[AWH the RBP]

Greg Maddux had tis to say about Howard's homer last night"

"Actually it wasn't a bad pitch," Maddux said, "he's just so gosh darn strong."

After reviewing the replay, I have to agree with Maddux. The ball was on the outside and low. It wasn't a strike. Howard might be the only guy in MLB who could have done that wth that pitch.

[PhillR]

NEPP: I dunno, I would probably just be really happy to see that though. The Fish as a team have bored me this season despite their surprising success. I never bought into it as legit, and due to their high turn over rate find it hard to get too attached.

Thats a real problem with the Fish. They never really form a cohesive identity in success or failure to latch onto. This puts their fans in the position of always being band wagoners, because they only have an identity once every couple of years. Whereas even in failure teams like the Phillies have an identity that as fan you follow.

Of course it could be that as a transplant my fan experience in Florida has been more to follow the team due to proximity, then to root for it.

In the end I "care" more about all things Philly then I do FL.

[doubleh]

I like PNC Park best of any park on the East Coast.

For food, can't beat the garlic fries (real garlic) at whatever they're calling the SF Giants park these days.

[donc]

NEPP:Agree on Victorino. And I didn't know about his ADD, though I suppose it explains some of his mistakes. But he is invaluable in this lineup. He is a sparkplug type for sure. Just decent hitting from the big guys and he would have been putting up some damn good numbers out of the two hole. I like that hair on fire type of guy and of course he's a terrific center fielder. If he can eliminate the mistakes as he matures he could really be something. Needs more discipline at the plate though.

[bballscientist-]

i've heard those fries at the SF park are truly amazing. Gary and Keith dedicated 2 minutes to talking about how good they are

[clout]

MG: Number of innings that Donald has played 2B as a professional: 0.

Number of innings Donald has played 3B as a professional: 0.

Because more prospects fail than actually meet expectations I tend to be very conservative when judging them. Which means I'm more inclined to believe the scouting reports that say Donald doesn't have the range to play SS in the bigs than the ones (especially within the Phils organization) that says he does. The fact the Phils haven't even tried him at another position means either 1. He can't play another position or 2. They think he'll succeed at SS, which makes him trade fodder over the next year or so.

That said, I do like Donald's bat and would love to see him come off the bench in September.

[NEPP]

On Parks that I've been too (in order of liking)

1. Fenway
2. AT&T
2. Camden Yards
3. CBP (close to Camden)/Jacobs Field
4. Safeco
5. The Vet
6. Wrigley

I thought Wrigley was a disgrace personally...I've never been so disappointed in a park.

[bballscientist-]

What was so dissapointing about Wrigley?

[NEPP]

On Donald: Here's what I've heard from various scouting groups:

1. He's got a terrific arm suited to 3B

2. The phillies kept him at SS to keep his trade value up this year.

3. He's got okay range at SS and could stay there in the majors but he'll never be a Jroll type of defender.

[NEPP]

On Wrigley (which is unfair because I compare it to Fenway)

1. Beer selection was horrible (they had regular and lite), no selection.

2. Seats were small and faced the OF...not the infield...actually worse than Fenway's seats.

3. Smelled like Urine. (Seriously)

4. I had to park like a mile away as I didn't take mass transit..even at Fenway there are garages in the area. We wree driving through Chicago so that was our only option.

5. Didn't have that magic feel that Fenway or Yankee Stadium has.

[bay_area_phan]

I think we need to see where Vic's stats are at the end of the year before we deduce that he's showing steady improvement. His 2007 numbers were very much in line with his 2006 numbers, only with a slight uptick in power. His overall numbers this year are better -- not by a great amount but not by an insignificant amount either. However, 6 weeks ago, we were talking about what a bad year he was having. Vic is a very streaky player, who has hit well for awhile now. Chances are pretty good that he's got another long slump left in him and that, when the dust settles, his numbers will look very much like the last two years. He's a pretty good all-around player, but I don't see much evidence that he is dramatically improving. I think this is about as good as he's going to be. There's nothing wrong with that, but I wouldn't expect too much more.

[NEPP]

Best beer selection is SAFECO by the way...they have like 100 different types of beer though it is pricy.

[NEPP]

I don't think Vic is DRAMATICALLY improving but he seems to be steadily improving...he's moved to a tougher defensive position and he's still doing great...4 errors in 2.5 seasons in teh outfield...that's good even if you underrate errors...if he gets to a ball he fields it cleanly.

[doubleh]

I thought the food selections at Camden Yards were pretty sparse--but we are pretty spoiled here in Philly where food is king (as evidenced by our robust waistlines).

I love the sightlines and feel of PNC; I'm going to the Nats new park next month for the astouding match up of...wait for it...Nats vs. the Padres! I bought them at the beginning of the season; who knew both teams would end up being so bad?

[NEPP]

CBP has the best food...Bull's BBQ and Cheesesteaks...can't be beat.

[Dave X]

Something to think about.

Shane Victorino OPS+ : 106
Ryan Howard OPS+ : 102

[NEPP]

Disturbing...

[NEPP]

Stupid question on OPS+ as its a good baseline: Is OPS+ position-specific when it comes to offensive production? Does a 1B get weighted more than a SS? or a CF? on production.

[Sophist]

Vic

06: 415 AB: .287/.346/.414
07: 456 AB: .281/.347/.423
08: 439 AB: .289/.354/.446

From 07, he already has 3 more 3B, just one less hit and one less HR.

One nice thing to see, PECOTA has Vic playing this way until he's about 32, with a slight drop-off at that time. Pretty much .286/.346/.448 until 2013. About .270 EqA.

[AWH the RBP]

scientist, we debate Victorino quite a bit here.

If you look at the numbers, he's a top tier CF in MLB.

He wouldn't start in CF for the Mets, but, IMO, he would for a lot of teams.

Right now he is a better CF than those of the following teams:

Braves
Marlins
Nats

Yankees
Orioles
Red Sox (yes, in my opionion he's better than Crisp or Ellsbury)

Twins (yes, right now)
Royals

Cubs
Astros
Reds

A's

D'backs
Rockies

Teams where, right now, the CF is only marginally, and debatably, better than Victorino are:

Brewers (Cameron)
Giants (Rowand)
Padres (Gerut)
Rays (Upton)
White Sox (Swisher hits more HRs, but that's it)

So, he's easily a top 15, and maybe even a top 10 player at his position.

We like having him.

[Sophist]

NEPP - Nope. Which is why earlier arguments that Rollins and Vic were "average" players bc of their ~100 OPS+ were misguided.

[NEPP]

I'll take that out of a decent defensive CF who chips in around 40 SB a year.

[MG]

Fenway has dramatically improved since the late 1990s. Much cleaner (can't emphasize how disgusting the stadium was on a Sunday day game if it had rained Sat. night), better and more food/beer selection, and improved bath rooms (as much as I loved pissing into the trough in the bleachers' OF it was just a bit messy by the 7th inning).

Still think that you experience at a place like Fenway or Wrigley depends on the month/time to a large degree. Fenway can be really awful in April and even early May night games can be pretty cold. Same with Wrigley.

If you go to Fenway, you need to go either in Sept (when they are in the heart of a pennant race and everybody in downtown Boston is wearing a Sox hat) or a night in late May/early June. Wrigley only works if you hit the bars before the game early and go to a day game. Both places have large sections though where the site lines just suck.

[NEPP]

Personally I'd take Ellsbury/Crisp over Vic...Crisp is probably the best defensive CF in baseball...or at least top 3.

[AWH]

"Vic is a very streaky player"

bap, very few players aren't streaky.

[NEPP]

On Wrigley: I went to a day game in April (first week of the season actually). The weather was very nice but the sight lines sucked as we were in the 3B upper deck. Better seats may have helped...and legit beer.

[Sophist]

Vic is 12th among CF in MLB in Runs Above Replacement Level.

In the NL, he's 6th behind McClouth, Beltran, Ankiel, Kemp, and Gerut.

CF - RARP- EqA
McClouth - 39.5 - .300
Beltran - 34.8 - .293
Ankiel - 29.6 - .299
Kemp - 27.8 - .297
Gerut - 22.2 - .300
Vic - 22.0 - .278

[Sophist]

I'll be attending the Friday day game at Wrigley. Never been before.

[MG]

Most overrated - Yankee Stadium. Really expensive, crap neighborhood, and if it weren't due to the history/team this park frankly would be among the worst in the league.

Most underrated - Petco Park

Crappiest stadium in the league - Shea. I am really interested to try and get to the new Mets' stadium in the next year or two when I am in NYC visiting friends.

I like CBP too now that I have had a chance to sit just about everywhere (except grandstands in OF and behind home plate) but I still like Camden Yards and PNC better.

[MG]

Sophist - If you are going with some who knows Wrigleyville well, hit a couple of 3-4 bars before the game. Just a beer at each and move on. One of my good friends lived in Chicago for a while and that was the first way I experienced Wrigley as an adult.

You also might want to grab a bite to eat too before the game because the food lines at Wrigley are usually long and the food pretty much sucks too.

[NEPP]

I've heard that Shea is vile.

Sophist: let me know if the beer selection has improved at all at Wrigley...I was there in 2004 and it seriously was pathetic...My brother and I still joke about it when we go to beer distributors...they had this horrible beer...it wasn't even as "Good" as budweiser.

[MG]

Sophist - One last thing. Grab a beer after the game and wait for the line at the 'L' to thin out a bit. It is very convenient and they have plenty of trains running after the 7th inning but still mobbed generally. If you can wait until about 45 minutes-1 hr after the game, it is much less crowded.

[donc]

Went to Fenway in 86. My three buddies and I snuck into the stadium at about 1:00 in the afternoon on a Friday. We had a security guard chase us around and we just kept walking. Eventually he caught up to us and saw the looks on our faces. He said you guys don't look like you're going to cause any trouble you can stay a minute and take some pictures. Let me tell you we stayed about an hour. It was awesome. I absolutely loved that place despite its flaws. The seats were like a midevil torture device. I remember thinking that if they ever build something like this in Philadelhia I'll go to 50 games a year. If I could afford it now I just might but even had to give up seats to todays game because of a schedule conflict. I love the Zen but the cost of going to a game is prohibitive. Those two days at Fenway plus our own personal tour were awesome though.

[NEPP]

You know the funny thing: I never had a problem with the Vet...perhaps its because I saw so many games there as a kid but I'd always liked going to games there. I always got really good seats there too and they were actually affordable (I never paid over $20 there). Sure it was ugly and beat up but it was ours...that said I love CBP.

[clout]

NEPP: Re: Vic and OPS+, that's exactly right. He's an above average centerfielder on offense. Move him to a corner, however, and he's near the bottom of the league. You have to compare position peer group when assessing OPS+.

[RSB]

NEPP: hang on, you mean to say you think SAFECO FIELD is a better place to watch baseball than Wrigley Field?

I was at Safeco for the first time earlier in the month. Outside of the enormous, looming retractable roof which makes the place look like one of next-door neighbor Boeing's aircraft hangars, the place is as bland as they come - absolutely nothing distinctive about it. It's like the Home Depot of ballparks - which, come to think of it, they pretty much all are these days, with a few exceptions like Petco. I think I'd put up with a few urine smells in order to have an authentic, rather than synthetic baseball experience.

[NEPP]

If we still had a Rowand type CF, Vic in the corner doesn't hurt you offensively (though honestly Vic is superior as a CF) but if you don't have a Rowand type CF Vic isn't a good corner OF because of his lack of power. I loved our OF last year and it was very solid. Burrell-Vic-Werth is fine as long as the IFs are producing as they should too though.

[AWH the RBP]

NEPP, I go to the Cape a lot, and like you, see a lot of Red Sox games (it's the only thing on).

Yes, Crisp is better defensively, but that's it. The only thing Ellsbury has over Vic is he's younger.

Vic hits better, runs better, fields just as well, and throws way way way better than Ellsbury.

IMO, Ellsbury is overrated because of a hot streak he had during the WS and playoffs, and the resultant publicity therefrom.

Just goes to show you how much exposure matters.

[donc]

Has anyone been to the Ted? Of all the newer ballparks that looks like the one I'd least like to go to. It looks boring as hell on TV. No character whatsoever. RSB what's so nice about Petco? I've never been there either.

[noyo]

MG - At this point in time, that lineup is obviously the correct one, which means that it will never happen. It's not rocket science - you put your most productive hitters at the top so they get the extra AB, you try to alternate them left & right, and that's all there is to it. When different guys start producing you move them up.

A pro team is (or should be) a meritocracy --you hit you play, you hit well you get more chances to hit. Players understand that. We have a sentimental old fool for a manager.

[NEPP]

RSB: I'm biased in that I lived in Seattle for 3 years and went to a bunch of games there...Great food and beer selection, comfy seats and I actually like the stadium...were you there with the roof retracted or closed? I stand by my not liking Wrigley. I love Fenway though...its my favorite place to watch a game actually. Fenway now is what Wrigley COULD be.

[AWH the RBP]

Sophist, your list pretty much sums up my evaluation, except I would take Vic over Gerut because I think he's a better al around player - just not the power.

[NEPP]

On Petco, my brothers been to a bunch of stadiums...more than me by far and he was very disappointed in Petco...he said it was very bland...nothing distinctive about it.

AWH: My post was more tongue-in-cheek in that I'd trade Vic for Ellsbury/Crisp right now if they offered it. Ellsbury is a tad overrated though he does make a good amount of impressive plays in the OF. Crisp is the most underrated CF in baseball when it comes to his glove...he's made some plays that I've just sat there and been like "How the hell did he get to that?"

[Sophist]

MG - Thanks for the advice. I'll see how well I can organize the group I'm going with. It will be the place I will be watching most Phils games live for the next few years, unless they have IL at CHW or I'm visiting home.