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Wednesday, August 20, 2008

Comments

Joe Blanton is a bad pitcher of baseballs.

50/50 boos and cheers? Did you watch the game? He got murdered after that double play ball.

Yeah I watched it. Under neutral circumstances, it was even, as others have also reported.

He's a reigning MVP, and the best defensive SS in the NL...leave him alone.

Even after the double play, he got some nice applause coming back to the dugout. The fans in that area (where I was sitting -- photos here: http://tinyurl.com/63sb7v) were very supportive, in a "we're not all like that" kinda way.

I have tix for Sunday night's game and I can't go due to a business trip. Bittersweet as I miss the ESPN game, but I am headed to Chicago for the week and I will catch a couple in Wrigley - my first experience there and I'm pumped.

That being said, I am looking to dump these for face + shipping. email me at marc.reed@alliancebernstein.com if interested. Sunday's game is also a lunch-box give-away for kids under 14. Seats (2) are in 109, row 10.

The boos every time he touched the ball got old real quick. It's like our 'phans' felt we need to make it very clear how boo happy we are.

Its funny how as Rollins' poor offensive year continues his defense moves up from "above-average" to "good" to "best in the NL." Not accusing you in particular of inconsistency but just an observation of BL as a whole...

Jason--great analysis of the Rollins situation.

I think Philadelphia fans only ask for one thing: That our professional athletes are willing to leave it all on the field. Brian Dawkins has lost a step, but he's still loved because he sells himself out on every play. While Rollins gets a pass for having an "off year", I'm not seeing the same hustle from Jimmy.

Dave X: I haven't seen many people say Rollins was just above average with the glove.

From PhillyBurbs.com- Randy Miller's column--
"And then the crowd went crazy again seconds later when Werth stepped in and hit one out to left, this tie-breaking homer carrying the Phillies to a 5-4 comeback win over the Washington Nationals.

“I love playing here,” Werth said. “It’s a good city. The fans are supportive and attendance has been up. This is a great place to play.” "

Hey- if we are going all positive like GM C.suggests this quote should get the same attention as J-Roll's

"I'm not seeing the same hustle from Jimmy." I can't disagree with that. He hasn't been as good as the 2007 version, and in all probability, never will be. That's why I'm skeptical the situation will blow over. J-Roll probably peaked. It's not a reason to push him out the door however. Stepping back to gain perspective helps.

****Its funny how as Rollins' poor offensive year continues his defense moves up from "above-average" to "good" to "best in the NL." Not accusing you in particular of inconsistency but just an observation of BL as a whole...****

Look at the stats for NL SS. Jimmy is easily #1 this year. He's at or very close to the best in FPCT, ZR, RF and number of Errors (fewest among SS).

"Stepping back and gain perspective" - not a strong point on this blog for the majority of posters. There again probably not a strong point on any similar blog, it's what makes fans passionate

My wife & I were at the game last night, & it sounded far more like 70/30 against Rollins than a 50/50 split.

My feeling: J-Roll's 2007 season already bought him a pass from an thoroughly disappointing offensive '08, & (perhaps more notably) a marked increase in ridiculous diva antics.

He has been both benched & yanked from a game for the above infractions, & he wasn't booed. Pretty much any other Philly athlete would've been immediately crucified in the stands after one, let alone repeated, incidents of tardiness & lack of hustle. J-Roll had a pass, & used it up early. The comments re: the fans were, IMO, the last straw so far as fan patience went.

I wasn't among those booing last night, but I definitely don't feel that those who were should be considered out of line in any way, shape or form.

Yeah Rollins has been phenomenal with the glove this season. But his offensive numbers are deplorable. He's gotta step it up.

I guess it just depends on what statistics you look at. Also making the picture murky is the fact that a lot of plus-defense guys like Furcal and Tulowitzki have been injured most of the year so they don't qualify for stat pages.


Part of the reason this whole thing won't die down is because of the local media. They are milking this for all it's worth. WIP has hosts saying "Get over it, Philly," all the while they go on and on about it...

Can't we just go back to talking about Brett Favre 24/7? In retrospect, it was so much more fun than this.

i'm heading to the game tonight. i won't boo, unless he hits into a DP off the first pitch. i can't say the same for my wife, though.

Tulo has been hurt alot...which is why Jroll should win his 2nd GG. Honestly last year Tulo was the better defensive SS but got overlooked because he was a rookie. This year Jimmy is #1.

Carson gets my vote for nomination to the BL HOF. It shows the power of the internet blogs.

I read something in the past two weeks that talked about booing. I forget where and I forget the context, but it was not characterized as a Philadelphia phenomenon, but rather a Northeast USA, characteristic. The article specifically mentioned Boston and New York before Philadelphia, as being towns where the fans boo their own players.

The Phillies won and who were the heroes? Guys like Werth, Dobbs, Coste and Jenkins; not the A list batters, who believe that "hitting season" ended on June 15th in order for the hitters to enjoy their mating skills and repopulate the herd. I believe that "hitting season" will resume in September when the north winds blow cooler breezes and the hitters are no longer in heat.

"J-Roll had a pass, & used it up early."
That's a very good point. His immaturity is what saddens me.
I wish the yahoos who boo all the time could be more clever in expressing their displeasure. I was thinking of getting my sons to go with me as "Jimmie's Frontrunners", dressed in Cowboys, Yankees and Lakers gear. That would show displeasure with Rollins' use of an Philly-offensive term like "Frontrunner" while offering an olive branch with a touch of lightheartness. But no booing -- the persistent booing by the Philly yahoo subclass is for losers.

-- It’s the dishonesty that bothers me most about all this chest thumping. “Philadelphia boos when our athletes don’t play hard!” Don't tell that to David Bell. “We boo because he wasn’t on time!” Don't tell that to Pat Burrell, always the first at the park. "He should just shut up and play!" Don't tell that to Mike Lieberthal, or Scott Rolen, or Bobby Abreu, great players who were criticized for not being more outspoken publicly. --

This is a great point Jason. Fans can boo all they want, but don't at the same time say all you want is a championship. From my experience at the park, the majority of "booers" do so to be jackasses and to try to fit into the mold of "Philly fans." I personally just like to sit there and watch baseball and drink beer.

Jimmy will be fine. More concerning is that Blanton would have given up 5 HR's if not for the wind. It was a plus that we got this guy signed to multiple years?

The things I liked about Madson's inning
1.) he started the inning so no inherited runners on base.
2.) his fastball had movement down. When you throw 92-94 and have a late downward movement on the pitch, anyone will have trouble hitting.
3.) His cut fastball 90-92 had slider movement down and away to the righties. That is a devastating pitch.
4.) He started the first two batters off with strikes...key for him, or any other bp guy.
I just wish he looked like that 80% of time instead of 40%. He would be the bridge to the 9th if that was the case.

If only the ownership, GM and FO would take the field before each game so we could direct our displeasure to the proper source.

I would love to jeer the Phillies' ownership. I would travel 3000 miles and stand in line for days to boo them.

Rollins doesn't deserve to be booed, after last year. I do, however, have to say he should turn down further interview requests. There's no more to say on the matter. He needs to tell the media to take a hike. This has been so overblown and how can we move on if it keeps getting brought up?

Well put Schmitty.

Blanton's in his arbitration years.

>>The boos every time he touched the ball got old real quick. It's like our 'phans' felt we need to make it very clear how boo happy we are. <<

Some of these fans were leftovers from the Tom Bladon era, I bet.

"If only the ownership, GM and FO would take the field before each game so we could direct our displeasure to the proper source. "
Excellent point.

Announcer: "Fans, before we introduce today's starting pitcher, let's have a lusty Philly welcome for the man responsible for his 3 year/24M dollar contract, Pat Gillick!"
Phans: BOOOOOO BOOOOO BOOOOO
Announcer: "Starting today, Adam Eaton"
Phans: "Mumble grumble", smattering of tepid applause

If only the Eagles FO had the guts to do that before Santa showed up on the field, then yahoo journalists couldn't use the Santa example to show how awful Philly fans are.

Deplorable? He is batting .263 with 56 runs scored, 8 HRs, 42RBI, 31SB after missing 25 games with a bad ankle. He hasn't used that injury as an excuse -- much like St. Utley hasn't used his hip injury as an excuse. He can still get hot. It's not the season we were looking for coming off the MVP, but it is certainly not a deplorable offensive performance. Sheesh.

@MPN -- Agreed.

Carlos Ruiz' season. Deplorable.

JROLL' season is merely subpar. Unfortuantely, JROLL's subpar season has a greater overall impact on the team offensively than Ruiz. Which gets the greater notice.

Jimmy gave an interview explaining his offensive woes - his timing is off with his front foot not getting planted properly. Obviosly this is much more digestable than he just isn't trying. But as the failed at bats accumulate I don't care what the cause is for the failure, I'm going to get frustrated and let the emotions fly.

In Philly we respond to perception. If you're in a slump but hitting the ball hard or seem to have the right idea we let you go for a good long time. But if you do the same dumb thing over and over, or when you constantly come up short that we crucify you.

It's deplorable in that his slugging numbers and OBP are way down and OBP is among the worst in the NL among leadoff batters. And his average needs to be 15 points higher. Factor in the Stolen Bases, though, and I guess deplorable may be a little harsh. It is very disappointing, though.

Its not his fault he's batting leadoff. Vic should be doing that but Chollie keeps running Jroll out there. He's having an okay season during which he has clearly been hampered by his ankle injury.

I am not sure if this was brought up previously but the fans supported Burrell uncharacteristically when he was going through one of his horrendous slumps.

Perhaps this was after Rolen left and Burrell became the adopted son but it was pretty amazing.

Expectations are high for our athletes but Jimmy spoke out and insulted his bread and butter whether he is right or wrong.

He is a professional and whether it is the fans, management, or teammates he has a responsibility to be politically correct or suffer the consequences.

JB: Thank you, couldn't have said it better myself.

I don't honestly remember how we treated him in 2003 or 2004 but i know that in the last few years his leash has been pretty short as he let every inside fast ball go and swung pathetically at every outside breaking ball.

NEPP: All you need to know about how bogus ZR and RF are is that last season Rollins finished in the high teens among all major league shortstops (as I recall) in those categories. Was he suddenly so bad last year and so good this year? To my eyes there's not a dime's bit of difference between his glove last year and this. Rollins is a very good defensive shortstop, arguably among the top 2 or 3 in the NL.

Burrell was brutalized by the fans all the way through the AS break last year...then he starting crushing the ball and has been cheered ever since...Does anyone remember opening day in 07 at all? He was nearly booed off the field during the intros (ridiculous pathetic display by the Phateful)

clout: I think we're in agreement here essentially. He's been the best NL shortstop with the glove this year...I think we basically agree with that.

I can't believe CSN played a taped Rollins interview over the beginning of his first AB last night. It's not like the Phils are owned by Comcast, and it's not like the timing was a coincidence. If they're a "Philadelphia sports news" station, well, there's your sports news for the evening.

NEPP: True, but you must have forgotten in the 2003 and 2004 season when he had his worst slumps of his career and the fans cheered him night in and out reguardless.

After two years of being in a slump don't you think the fans have a right to boo him then???

to GTown's point of JRoll having a pass -

I was at the first game J Roll played after being benched for being late.
Not one boo. I was surprised. I realized then the city had given him a pass.

Burrell was given an extremely long leash in 03 and 04 Mostly because most fans recognized that there was an injury. However, frustration did linger and in 05 and 06 that leash was pulled back, despite averaging

Opening Day '06, he was booed on his way to the plate. My buddy turned to me and said he had 117 RBI last year. Boos returned in 07, despite averaging 30 homers and 106 RBI in the previous 2 years.

Interesting Minor League Stat:

Greg Golson Walk Rate

1st Half: 5.3% (14 in 264 AB)
2nd Half: 11.8% (15 in 127 AB)

His batting average has gone down about 30 points from the 1st half to the 2nd but he has made a major adjustment in that he's taking far more pitches right now.

Optimistic Take: He's finally learning some pitch recognition and the batting average will come back up slowly over time. This happened with Pat Burrell when he was struggling. His SO rate has remained pretty much unchanged right around 33-34% all season...he's been consistent on that but he's taking more pitches which has been his biggest problem up til now.


Thoughts?

Your analysis seems spot on to me. I think it is a very fair assessment to say that he has been given a pass. No boo's? Definitely a pass.

king myno: The Phillies buy out that time from CSN and get the ad revenue for those slots. That's why the announcers are employees of the team, not CSN. This also makes valuing their broadcasting revenue exceptionally difficult, unless, I suppose, you are a forensic accountant.

****NEPP: True, but you must have forgotten in the 2003 and 2004 season when he had his worst slumps of his career and the fans cheered him night in and out reguardless.****

I've never booed Pat Burrell as he's my favorite player. I also had season tickets in the LF stands about 12 rows up for the 04 season and cheered every game I was there. I do remember that long leash though. If you look at his stats, Pat has been a solid above average contributor for every season of his career other than 03.

JW: Nice way to point out all the rampant contradictions in defenses fans use for not liking players. Clearly, there is a problem a sizable portion of the fan base has had with Jimmy Rollins all along - though even for that, I seriously doubt he would have attracted all the criticism if his season hadn't been a huge disappointment to date. In fact, he seems now to be the lightning rod for all of the frustration the fans have been feeling about the team in general for the past 8-9 weeks.

But here's the real quote of the day: "I think somewhere along the line, Jenkins is going to get hot," manager Charlie Manuel said. "I definitely will play him some more."

We have been hearing this for literally four months now. This is like ingesting rat poison every day for weeks on end and saying "it's really going to stay down this time."

Thing is, we all loved JRoll til this crap happened.
Now the cats out of the bag. He wont apologize although he did offer clarity. I guess its not enough for some to accept.
I am trying to be patient with him. I liked him for 8 years. I cant just turn a switch like some fans and call for his head.
But if he says "oh well" much more than 3 more times, I might have to re-think my position.

I have loved J Roll for 8 years. I am trying to be patient and open-minded. I understand his frustration. I cant simply pull a switch and call for his head or call for him to be traded.
However, if he says "oh well" again, I may have to re-think my position.

There's not a single player on the team that I actually hate or even dislike...I get frustrated by Howard and JRoll sometimes and Jenkins has been a major disappointment but I don't hate any of them. Myers I probably wouldn't care for as a person and he annoyed the hell out of me with his antics on the mound early in the season but overall there's no Bonds type guy that I HATE on the team.

"Philly yahoo subclass"

Edmundo, that about sums it up.

I go to a lot of games, and to me, the booing is ridiculous. It exposes the booers as the idiots that they are.

It's as if they think players GIDP or strike out on purpose.

It's like the perpetrators are a bunch of mindless automatons or low-IQ lemmings who do it out of programmed habit rather than paying attention to what's actually happening on the field.


My favorite anecdote is from last season at a Sunday game in September(I had the Sunday package last season, Section 209).

Jason Werth came to the plate late in the game, he was 1-3 that day with 2 RBIs, and two young ladies behind us around the age of 20 who had snuck into the section started chanting "Werth-less".

Now, mind you, had this been early in the season it would have been understandable. I am on the record on this blog as saying the criticism of Werth early last season was as justifyable as the praise he received later. But the guy came into that game batting over .300 for the season in the middle of an incredible hot streak.

Yet these two idiots behind us felt it necessary to rip and mock the guy.

Some of the people in our section turned around and asked them why they were doing it (sometold them to shut up) and they replied by saying "because he sucks".

It was like they were in a time warp and had no clue what he had done recently.

It wasn't my first clue that Philadelphia sports fan may not be as knowledgable as advertised.


So, I'll say this:

Jimmy Rollins may not have said what he meant to say (frontrunners is not the term I would have used), but he's right about Philly fans not supporting their teams as well as they should.

And don't give me the BS line about paying to go to games is "supporting". I was at the Vet several times in the late '90s and early '00s when there were less than 15,000 in attendance, and in one case barely over 10,000. Fans weren't "supporting" the team through those bad times.

The team was bad, yes, but where was the "support"? And the team was bad because of ownership, not the players, so direct your ire where appropriate.

So, if you want to boo, it's your right. Go ahead and be a mindless lemming, a petulant child. Boo before you think.

But, I'm going to reach out on a limb here and assume that the reason you boo is because you want the team to play better and win.

Well, if you understand anything about human psycology you'd know that your actions have very little chance of getting you what you want.


In that case Jimmy Rollins is right and you're dead wrong.


Do you wnat the Philly sports scene to change and bring us more championships? Maybe you need to change also.


Support Carson, support YOUR team, support Campaign Cheer.

It has a better chance of getting you what you want than your "tried and true behavior".

sorry for double post
didnt think the first one went thru

NEPP: Rollins has been the most sure-handed shortstop in the NL this season. His range is excellent, but that is something you see not something that can be properly measured. ZR and RF are affected by numerous factors that have nothing to do with the fielder. Hell, the height of the grass affects ZR and RF.

You can get a good debate going about who has the best range of any NL shortstop. When he was with the Dodgers I thought Izturis wsa the best. Reyes has to be mentioned. Vizquel in his prime was tops. Tulo showed he could pick it last year and this kid Escobar with the Braves is very good.

Let's also get the record straight with Burrell and '03: yes, the fans did at times support him - but that was only after they had gotten sick of booing him. It was like trying out reverse psychology, after they realized how deeply he was buried in the slump, and perhaps figured, hey, maybe the booing is actually making things worse for the guy.

Burrell still suffered through his share of harsh treatment that year. I remember a lot of times when the fans would build up all these cheers of encouragement when he'd be up in a big at-bat - and then boo his ass if he failed. Much like the way it went down in his other off seasons.

at least he's being a man and standing by what he say.

If he'd have backed down and said he was BSing, I'd have far less respect for him. He said what he honestly believes and has stuck with it...no matter how much we all don't want to hear it.

@RSB -- yes. in 03 and 04 the leash was mostly encouraging cheers before the at bat. Boo's after. EXTRA huge cheeers for big hits. that treatment for some reason disappeared in 05 and 06 and every strikeout was booed despite putting up 2 decent seasons.

I've had countless discussions with people off-line about Burrell during that time. And there is still carryover regarding Burrell from that 03 and 04 era.

Any slump he goes through, people are quick to mention that time.

RSB: You missed the real point: Jenkins has played very little compared to past seasons. He'll have fewer ABs this season than any time in his career except for 2002 when he was hurt (and his rookie year when he was called up mid-season).

Has lack of playing time been a factor in Jenkins poor production? It's not like that's never happened before. What were Burrell's numbers last year after 280 ABs?

Its amazing Pat Burrel is alive after some of the barrages he had to endure.

Its more amazing that he's vetoed several attempts to trade him, loves Philly, and wants to stay here. All that will hurt even more when he's wearing someone else's uniform next year...I really hope he doesn't go to the Mets...which is a real possibility.

I was at the game... I found myself oddly booing J-Roll while clapping at the same time... then I looked around and saw much of the same, people booing and clapping at the same time... But all it turned into was booing with every out he had.. haha...

I def dont want JRoll to apologize. I dont think he really has much to apologize for other than making a miscalculated generalization. I am a Phils fan and am not a front runner. Same with a lot of you. But I have seen many front runners as phillies fans.
Every team has front runners.
I'd like to see him weather this storm and get back on track and this whole thing just go away.

Dont wanna see Pat as a Met.

J-Roll's "frontrunner" phrase still bothers me. When I was in college, my freshman year dorm room mate was you classic "frontrunner". While I was a Phillies, Eagles, Flyers & Sixers fan, my room mate (also from South Jersey) was a Dodgers (they had Sandy Koufax), Packers (they had Bart Starr & Vince Lombardi), and Celtics (they had Bill Russell) fan. I wonder who he roots for now? Probably, he's a Red Sox, Patriots and Celtics (still?) fan. He most likely was a Bulls fan during the Michael Jordan era, then jumping on and off the Lakers bandwagon. That's a "frontrunner".

J-Roll should watch the Olympics where players are proud to represent their countries and state it eloquently. J-Roll should say he's proud to represent Philly and their great fans. No, he says he stands by what he says.

I feel I may be slipping off Carson's Cheer bandwagon. I think J-Roll deserves every boo he gets. Cheer all the rest of the team all the time and J-Roll when he hustles and succeeds.

Sorry to mention something other than the Rollins boo situation, but Im getting a little tired of Hamels not pitching against the mets. The way the rotation currently sets up, Hamels will not pitch in the 2-game series next week, and he will also miss the 3-game series in NY the weekend after labor day. This would be what 4? 5? consecutive Mets series Hamels has missed.

Wouldnt it make sense to either skip a start for someone somewhere or bring in Happ for a start so that our best pitcher can pitch against the team we're chasing for the division? We only have 5 games left with them...

I like Jimmy. I dont like him as the "leader" or "captain" of this team.
He is not smart enough for that responsibility.

Interesting little article from Spring Training when Manual was upset from the effort, thought it was worth a review:

If the Phillies want to repeat as division champions and last deep in the playoffs -- the team's mind-set must change.

It was suggested before the game that perhaps the team missed the leadership of the always boisterous Aaron Rowand, who never shied away from speaking his mind.

"I think Rowand has been missed and I believe in players policing themselves if they can," Manuel said. "Some guys can't police themselves or don't know how. If that's the case, somebody needs to police them."

Though Rowand wore that uniform at times last season as a vocal leader, Jimmy Rollins, Chase Utley, Ryan Howard and Jamie Moyer often led in more private ways.

"Rowand talked more than them, but we've got guys in the locker room who can be that guy," Manuel said.

While understanding that it's March 15, Manuel still doesn't like to see certain "guys that are too cool. There's a fine line between being relaxed and being complacent. We have something happening here, but it's nothing we can't take care of."
http://www.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20080315&content_id=2428667&vkey=spt2008news&fext=.jsp&c_id=mlb

clout: well, that's very much a chicken/egg debate. Is Jenkins struggling because he's not playing more or is Jenkins not playing more because he's struggling?

You may have a point that he would possibly and finally get into a good, prolonged groove if he got to play every day, but at the same time, he has not earned the right to be in there more frequently, taking time away from better players while the Phils hope and cross their fingers that Jenkins finally gets it together. And it's not like he hasn't gotten his chances to play. The way his offensive skills have declined, I would say it's more a matter of the guy just reeking than it is a matter of the Phillies not letting him play enough to find a groove at the plate.

pb - what makes you think Rollins isn't 'smart' enough to be a leader? He's plenty intelligent. I may not even want to know where that comment is coming from.

Doubleh: Typical media contradictions.

"Get over it." But, we are going to keep talking about it obsessively instead of dropping the alleged "non-issue."

Funny how that works. We want you to stop, but things are great for the show when we keep this going. Telling the fans to "get over it" is just a means of emboldening their spirits. More of a reason to listen, to criticize. In reality, the media wants this story to stay alive as long as possible. If the opposite were true, then GM-Carson would have never been contacted by multiple media outlets. If in fact, they want it to go away, then you would not hear a word about it. Nothing could be further from the truth.

mb: I'm guessing Cholly doesn't want to mess with his rotation. Plus to the extent you can get an extra day here and there for Hamels because of off days, it may help keep him fresh. In this next stretch all the teams are tough.

Lake Fred, that's a little lame.

His "frontrunners" comment doesn't bother me, because it's basically true, though I would have said it differently.

It was poorly phrased - I think what he meant to say was that Philly fans are "fair weather fans" - and he's right.

And as the guys on BDSSP pointed out, it's true of ALL fans in EVERY city.

Now, Jimmy used St. Louis as an example of where it doesn't happen, but those people are a bunch of mindless psycophants. They'd probably give a standing ovation for effort to their team in the bottom of the 9th of their 100th loss. (Hey, maybe that's why they've won more WS than any team but the Yankees?)

In Philly, we wouldn't boo - the ballpark would be empty.

I pretty much made my point in my post above, so you get the idea.

Actually, maybe the fans in Philly deserve to be booed, for things like throwing batteries at opposing players, or behaving so poorly that the city had to bring a court and jail to the Vet for a football game.

That was real classy behavior wasn't it?

I can't pretend to know Rollins motivation for his comments. Personally, I don't think he was wrong but what he said cannot help and could possibly hurt the team. That's why he should keep his mouth shut. But so many of today's athletes love to get in front of the microphone. Donovan McNabb is simply incapable of shutting up. Every time he opens his mouth he starts some kind of a fight. Yet he continues to do it. I guess these guys like seeing themselves on TV. I would think there lives would be a lot easier if they refused an interview request every once in a while. Rollins prefaced his remarks by saying they would probably start a firestorm and of course they did. So he knew what he was doing. I just can't figure out why he would willingly bring that stuff on himself. I won't boo him. I don't boo. But I do agree with the earlier post that said his MVP award bought him some good will and he spent it early with his antics. That's what I don't get. It was reasonable to assume he would never duplicate last season. But he isn't hustling like he always has. That is unforgivable. If he just wasn't having a good season it would be one thing. But he doesn't appear to give a damn.
I think he has always been popular and treated well by the fans here. But if it has been a little less than maybe he has deserved, I think there is a reason for that too. He's always been asked to bat leadoff. It is not a job that suits him. It's not his fault, but he is not a high OBP guy. I think the phaithful have always been just a tad disappointed in him for this reason. Again, not really his fault. The Phillies just haven't had a prototypical leadoff hitter around. Jimmy gets the job by default. And Victorino has a similar skill set. He doesn't fit the mold either. At this time he should probably get a shot at the job, but he doesn't have the plate discipline neccesary either. Shut up and play hard Jimmy and it'll all blowover. Oh yeah, a nice 12 for your next 25 wouldn't hurt either.

RSB: You may be right. Maybe Jenkins is washed up at age 34. And, frankly, it wouldn't bother me if he were losing time to a guy who kills RHP. But he's losing time to Werth, whose SLG vs. RHP is .353, which is pretty sad for a corner OF. I'd play Jenkins against every RHP from here on.

I am saying a leader of a team does not call the fans of the team "frontrunners"
I would think a smart leader would think of other ways to address the question.

Parker, this is an issue where you and I are in complete agreement.

To an extent, the Philly Phaithful brings this on themselves with consistent negative behaviour, BUT, the media does tend to exacerbate the situation quite a bit. Don't believe me? Who were the idiots who booed McNabb on draft day? WIP callers who won a radio call-in contest based on the fact that they all wanted Ricky Williams taken first in the draft.

They love the negativity b/c booing Santa sells more papers than people who behave like fans in St. Louis. How many good news stories headline the nightly news? It's always the bad stuff. Life sucks. People love to see other people who have crappier lives than they do--point the finger and feel superior to those they feel are beneath them.

Then there's the whole art vs. reality theme--did my senior thesis on it. It's been around for centuries. Does art influence our actions or merely reflect it as it exists? I'd say it's a little bit of both.

Not sure if Bell is a perfect argument against the "play hard" argument. It was obvious that he was washed up. I respected the guy for leaving it all out on the field, but it became plainly obvious that he wasn't going to turn it around. Hardest player, but for what?

The perfect argument against the 'play hard' argument is actually Scott Rolen. It suddenly didn't seem to matter how hard he played - and without a doubt, he was every bit as intense and hard-nosed as Utley - once it became clear he didn't want to be in Philly, a factor that trumps everything, regardless of the reasons for it.

Come to think of it, maybe the crux of the scarred Philadelphia psyche doesn't lie in the contrast to New York - but to St. Louis.

doubleh: Take it one step further. When the Phillies are going well I would bet there are considerably fewer posts on Beer Leaguer than when they are in the toilet. But I agree with you completely. It is disengenuous of the media to take the fans to task for poor behavior. They thrive on that stuff. BTW I believe WIP stands for We're Ignorant People, so consider that source.

@clout -- agreed. Hamels seems to be one the one guy who seems most rattled by changes in rotation. Why screw with it?

Watching the rain delay stuff a few weeks ago, and listening to Carlton talk about how good it felt to go out every 4th day (we can argue 3 days rest versus 4 another time).

Would I prefer he pitch against the Mets sure. But do I want to risk 6 or 7 more ACE like starts to mess with his routine? I don't think so. It may come down to one game again this year sure. But one game could turn into 3 or 4 or more, if Hamels were struggle for a few starts because he broke routine.

I know there are folks who hate treating Hamels with kid gloves. But this guy is special for a reason. I'd rather we don't mess with it.

AWH the RBP: What's lame about my opinion?

I agree with you that it sounds like he's talking about "fair weather" fans than "frontrunners". I also agree with you that such fans exist everywhere. I also agree with you when you wrote: "maybe the fans in Philly deserve to be booed, for things like throwing batteries at opposing players, or behaving so poorly that the city had to bring a court and jail to the Vet for a football game."

I, however, think this behavior is regional, bigger than the Delaware Valley area in its scope; including all of the industrialized northeast from the Great Lakes to the Eastern seaboard. Living in the south all of these years, my "southern all her life" wife can pick out a "northerner" in a New York second, as we "northerners" speak what we feel immediately and reflect on what we say, if at all, later. Booing your own team members is that kind of behavior. It's an immediate eruption of displeasure. Maybe we just can't help it; it's in our genes and Carson's Cheer Campaign is destined for failure.

I'm really trying to avoid continue to talk about this subject... but.. just... can't.. stop...

@Lake Fred - Why can't we better than that? It's lame to suggest, "well boston and new york do it". Yes, that defines WHY we do it. The lack of championships do to. But that doesn't make it right. It doesn't make it a good thing.

If you go out of your way to boo your own team, there's just something wrong with you. Sorry.

I understand there are certain things that are just in our DNA that predisposes certain behaviors. But why can't we be better than that?

We have an opportunity as Phillies fans to change. The door was opened. And a because a few people seem to enjoy being negative or boo more than they cheer. Well, that's on you I guess. I just hope you aren't sitting next to me in the stands.

Now more than ever, I resent being lumped in with other Philly fans. I used to be proud to wear the "colors" in other stadiums. Now, not so much. I applaud Carson for giving it a try. One game won't make a difference, unfortunately.

I hoped for better.

We won the game last night.

But I think we really lost.

I think booing says more about the person doing the booing than the target.

I think booing says more about the person doing the booing than the target.

donc - Were you around for the last few series of last year? When the Phils are on fire, Beerleaguer lights up. Personally, when they're stinking I feel less inclined to post.

hh - Amen, to booing the FO. If Carson gets any traction with "Campaign Cheer," I'd suggest a follow-up which tangibly demonstrates that the fans' true dissatisfaction is not with our players but with those owners.

The warning about getting on the players' cases, of course, is that ownership, eager to please the fans, may think that the remedy is trading the unpopular player. Their eagerness to unload the guy and his salary often (in the case of the Phillies almost inevitably) in bad value trades.

Hence you get Laureano for Bell, you get Monasterios (or name your favorite career minor leaguer out of the four left) for Abreu, Urbina (after everything worked out)for Rolen and Willie Montanez for Dick Allen.

Maybe even all the J-Roll detractors should join in Campaign Cheer, just to maintain his trade value.

Sorry about the double play. I feel like Carlos Ruiz.

But, donc, I do completely agree with this:
I think booing says more about the person doing the booing than the target.

It even bears repeating. :)

Andy: No I wasn't around last year. I'm glad to hear that though. Thanks.

Follow up to yesterdays storyline here-From the ZO Zone:

Catcher David Ross cleared release waivers at 1 p.m. today and the Phillies have contacted his agent.

Phillies assistant general manager Ruben Amaro Jr. said they are hopeful they can work out an agreement with Ross, who the Cincinnati Reds released Monday.

I don't want Campaign Cheer to die. Now that it's got some media attention I want it to grow. I won't be at the games any time soon, so I won't be getting the interviews anymore. The publicity for my blog was cool, but it's about a whole lot more than that now. I want this idea to actually catch on and work. Screw booing, it doesn't solve a damn thing. Try being positive, it's fun. I had a better time last night cheering my buns off than I've had at a game in the long time. I was searching for positives and supporting my team that I love rather than pointing out the negatives and tearing down the team with stupid boos. Keep Campaign Cheer alive!!!

Boo, don't boo, but please let it die Carson so we can move on with something else.

Carson, those of us who are not mindless-lemming, boo-programmed-reponse-robots will make every effort to keep it alive.

I think it's a noble effort.

I, for one, am sick and tired of sitting at games listening to the un-useful idiots booing our players because they GIDP.

They act like the player just took money from Arnold Rothstein and did it on purpose.


It's this simple:


Baseball is a sport in which even superstars fail 70% of the time at the plate, and 2% of the time in the field.

Booing a baseball player because he just
struck out or made an error shows a complete lack of knowledge or understanding of the game.

Period.

I'll stop talking about it, I have no problem with that. I just want the idea to continue. It doesn't even have to have the corny title anymore, just the concept alone living on is enough for me.

Carson- Get Mike Nutter to pick up the ball on campaign Cheer - He's got u huge stake in picking up our city's image- and our rep as boo birds is a big part of that image.
Just an idea

You are never going to change an entire populace in a short time. It's ingrained in them and a learned behaviour. It would take generations to remove the bipolar disorder that afflicts our fanbase.

You have to start with the "man (or in my case, woman) in the mirror".

In short, you can't change others but you can change yourself.

Philly fans need their own 12 Step Program.

For all concerned, Melvin Mora has cleared waivers.

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EST. 2005

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