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Friday, August 15, 2008


So glad I didn't see any of these West Coast games. Dear Lord.

Cholly- Might I suggest some batting practice for the boys.

Booing: The entire argument that booing is wrong because "it hurts people" is just outlandish.

Sure, if I show up at the hospital and boo the birth of Carlos Ruiz's first child, he would have every right to be upset. In fact, he would be justified in slugging me, or anyone else, in the face. That is not what we are dealing with here.

All booing is centered around the performance of a player, and occasionally something the player does off the field that makes him/her unpopular. People go to games to witness a game. They pay money to witness a game. Perhaps it would be wrong if someone just paid money for a ticket, not having watched a single game ever, and just decided to show up and boo everyone. That would just be bad faith. I highly doubt there are many people like that. Sure maybe some disturbed individual would do such things, but that is life, disturbed people exist and a ticket stub does not distinguish between the sane and insane.

Most people are aware of what is going on and they only boo players that are not performing. When you are in an environment where your only method of voicing displeasure is through vocal disdain, booing is the only option, just as cheering is the only method of voicing approval. I imagine there are plenty of fans that would love to forego the booing and have one-on-one talks with the players, telling them that they need to get their acts straight. That of course, is impossible. In the absence of such personal encounters for encouragement, booing is the only option. Silence, in the face of failure, may as well be acquiescence to the failure. Either that or the concessions are selling sedatives instead of alcohol.

When someone says booing is wrong, I have to wonder what they are thinking. Go to work and don't perform. Don't meet reasonable expectations of your customers or boss. See what type of reaction you are met with. My guess is that booing would be a welcome option when faced with the real alternative.

Why is it such a bad idea to blow up this team? It's been together for the most part for the last five years (Thome and Howard are interchangeable) and it can't get anywhere because its constructed for regular season success not playoff success (ie can't hit good pitching).

We waited to long to trade Schilling, Rolen, and Abreu, had no leverage, and got nothing in return. These guys are all 29-30 so their stock is only going to decline. We should start moving bodies now and look to build a talented baseball team as opposed to a traveling homerun derby.

Since the steroid era is over lets emphasize contact, speed, and defense and get this ship righted.

This team is cooked. Massive changes to the everyday lineup need to made in the offseason.

The fact that the FO and Gillick have done NOTHING to help the offense and/or the bench, is very troubling.

Its been very apparent since early July, that this offense wasn't good enough. Could not hit good pitching. Struck out way too much. Didn't see enough pitches. Its not just one guy. Its most of the team. And, Gillick and company have spent most of their time looking for old pitchers and/or lefty specialists instead.

This has been going on for months now. Its not going to change now. This team is good enough in the rotation. Its good enough, most nights, in the bullpen. Its good enough (except at 1B) defensively. Its not good enough offensively.

The Mets aren't any good either and now that they are in the lead, prone to choke it away. That's the Mets. Maybe the best thing the Phils could do, is let the Mets get a lead now. They can't stand prosperity. And, the Marlins are still young and flawed too.

Here are a couple of ugly stats:

Burrell, who has had a great year, has stunk in the past few weeks. He's been terrible. Is 11 for his last 63. Not exactly "Manny-like".

And, since June 20, Phils starters have given the team 28 quality starts. That's a strong number (over 50% of games played in that time); especially considering your home games at CBP (which is overrated as a hitters park; but I digress).

In those 28 games with a QS, the Phils are only 15-13. And, since Lidge hasn't blown a save all year, we know its not usually (this week aside) been a late-inning bullpen problem (and certainly not a 9th inning problem).

This team looked dead about 10 times last summer too, so maybe there is still hope. But, they look dead right now. They face bad teams and bad pitchers now until next weekend, so if they can't get anything going now, its not going to happen.

And BTW, the Dodgers are a really good team now. I wouldn't want to play them in the playoffs. They have speed. They have professional hitters. They have power. They have the best right-handed hitter in baseball. They have a good bullpen. They have a championship manager. That's a dangerous team.

Blame it on the fans!

Mets fan here, I come here not to gloat. I don't need to be reminded of 7 and 17 and I'm acutely aware that a 1 game lead with 40 to go is about as sturdy as our bullpen.

That being said, from what I've read this is a great blog, filled with passionate and informed fans. It does remind me of MetsBlog with equal parts pragmatic faction and alarmist sect.

Still, some of the suggestions I've seen about trading players Howard and Rollins confound me just as much as when Mets fans suggest traing Reyes and Beltran (I'm going to equate Wright to Utley when it comes to the face of the franchise teflon-like shield from culpability).

Additionally, some of the proposed upgrades to your team, such as better producing corner OF, are very similar to what Mets fans want. I think both teams are in pretty similar situations when it comes to farm systems and if you're going to move players from your existing roster you'll probably create one hole to fill another.

It seems like the Phillies are hitting that rough patch in the schedule that the Mets had in the 1st half with their multiple west coast swings. As bad as some of you think your team has played, it's only resulted in a razor thin deficit in the standings and there's no logical Mets fan that I know that isn't expecting the Phillies to be there until the bitter end.

is Gillick still employed by the Phillies>??? i've never seen a GM completely disappear like he has the past 6 months. this team is stuck in neutral. and its made worse by a couple of GMs who either don't know what they're doing or are watching the clock to when they get to leave. at this point if this team even does make the playoffs it'll be another 3 and out.

Our leadoff hitter just went 0 for 9. Our #3 hitter is batting around .160 since mid-June. Our #4 hitter is going to strike out 250 times this season. Our #5 hitter is 11 for 63. Our #8 hitters can't hit.

You don't need to analyse this any deeper than that.

* Our #3 hitter is batting .160 with RISP since mid June.

I think the last thing I wanted to see this morning was RSB's 4:30 am manifesto about why JRoll is right and all of fans are wrong. In case you missed it, and you did not miss much, he pretty much told all of us who show our displeasure with this franchise to grow up. If nothing else you have some great timing RSB. I think it would be a little easier to take if this team was playing worth a damn but of course they are not so why don't you save your pompous ass sermons for somebody who wants to hear them. You pay your money and I pay mine. How I choose to react is my business and I certainly don't need a lecture from you on fan decourm.

I have a sinking feeling that the '08 Dodgers are going to be the same poisonous team that the '06 Astros were to these Phils. I can see an Andre Either 3 run HR off of Brad Lidge to seal another 4 game sweep a week from Monday all too clearly in my head.

But hey, the women's gymnasts won last night. That was pretty cool to watch.

I'm afraid to say we look like last year's Mets (without the division lead). Although we're technically still in it, there's nothing about this team that says we're making a run, or making the playoffs. The writing has been on the wall for months now and somehow they're just lingering on.

I didn't say people weren't right to show displeasure with the franchise. And I don't mean to say that booing, as a rule, is 'wrong'. It can serve its purpose at times. I said that when it's directed towards individual players, particularly ones who are already down, it can be a drain on the team at large, for the reasons Rollins supplied. You look at their weak home record in the last several years and it can't be a coincidence. All the negativity produces the most palpable home-field disadvantage in the sport.

I can't be concerned about whether you want to hear what I have to say, don. You can disagree all you want, but if you've got a 'right' to boo and holler, I've got the same right to say what I want about it.

Maybe this is just the sweep talking, but it also looks like the '08 Dodgers could be the '07 Rockies. They have a solid lineup and decent pitching. They should run away with the West and will be tough against anyone in the NL. It will be interesting to see how they do against Milwaukee this weekend.

Look on the bright side: Lidge got plenty of time to rest up the past 4 days!

But seriously folks, I have been on the side of an offensive slump rather than structural problems all season long, but ummmm...

I wondered why the were a poor home team, now it all makes sense. What a crock of s**t. You have every right to voice your opinion, and I never would have it any other way, but blaming us for the their lousy performance cuts kind of deep. I am so frustrated with this team right now and you seem to be implying we are partly responsible for their performance. That's tough to take.

You know it's bad baseball when you turn to gymnastics and pre-season football as a distraction. They should just run Phelps' events on a continuous loop.

RSB said "I said that when it's directed towards individual players, particularly ones who are already down, it can be a drain on the team at large"

This does not happen to teams with mental toughness. The Phils had that toughness and "edge" last year. This year they are resting on their laurels. Apparently they were satisfied with just making the playoffs...getting swept by the Rockies did not re-light that fire.


The Dodgers were 4-5 with Manny before the Phils series and now since they swept the Phils they are going to make the WS? I think it's just more likely that the Phils are not a very good team.

Don: I wonder how we caused them to play like crap and get swept 3,000 miles away?

I can see how negative energy can affect some players--such as booing the player BEFORE he even takes a swing--I mean, come on, let the guy strike out first and then boo. But I have to wonder what the Phillies mgmt is telling these guys when they sign here. It's not like it's a sudden development.

I think Philly fans could stand to lighten up a little, but players also need to learn the town's history that they play in, esp. if they sign a long term contract. Know your customer. BTW, the grass isn't always greener on the other side. Just ask Rolen.

This is no slump. Its the reuslt of bad decision making by the FO. Every gamble they took with this lineup has turned out dead wrong. They imagined Ruiz would continue to improve on last season--nope, a terrible decline. They gambled that other players like Rollins would pick up the leadership role left by Rowand--nope, Rollins is clearly not that guy. They imagined they needed a platoon with Werth--nope, Jenkins has been a disaster (and he's signed for next season too). They gambled on an aging Taguchi as a steady pinch hitter--nope, he can't hit anything.

Coupled with sub-par seasons from Rollins, Utley, and Howard and this team is just painful to watch, and will likely continue to be for the rest of the season.

I don't think booing affects the players that much. Booing happens from high school onward, and you'd think after 10 years of it they'd get thick enough skin.

Well its that time of the year when Management starts looking at the Wild Card standings and saying we're contenders and if it was hockey or basketball they would make the playoffs every year. REally nice to think of it that way, huh? Btw - everyone's favorite whipping boy, Ed "THe Hitman" Wade has his Stros only 2 games behind the Phils in the standings...YIPPPEE!

Jason, I'm a big fan of that Kings of Leon cd you have up there. To stay off topic I found the old Beatie Boys "Paul's Boutique" album while moving a month ago and I forgot how much I used to love those guys. When the Phillies suck like this I do other things. Yes I'm a frontrunner, I don't care.

Don't mind RSB. He was just grumpy about having to listen to Vin Scully for 4 games.

Forgive me for my previous posts blaming management for this horrible team. I'm changing my opinion and now putting the blame soley on us idiot fans for us selling out that park 41 times so far this season and drinking the cool-aid that this offense is one of the best in all of MLB. Obviously we are the ones that should be blamed for being so stupid and gullable.

THe Dude: You forgot customary line about the injuries and players not playing up to their capabilities. If only they would all have career years simultaneously we could win it all...

1993 is the worst thing that ever happened to this group because they think they can catch lightening in a bottle every year instead of putting the team together the right way.

Tony: Have you heard any cuts off their upcoming Sept. album? I have two tracks and they're both filthy.

Hey kdon's back!

Sorry if this isn't all that insightful, but in response to Dude: Wild card is out of the question this year. They're 5 back in the WC and 1 back of the Mets. And the Brewers are significantly better than the Mets. The way to the P.O.'s is through the division.

@Tony - That KoL CD is great. I'm stoked for the new one next month. The stuff I've heard off it so far is excellent.

@Jason: I have a 3rd track; if you want it, I can get it to you.

There is a certain type of booing that I do disagree with. One example was at opening day this year, when the announced the team. Adam Eaton got a huge round of boos. I cringed at that. I know Eaton was terrible last year, and he was worse this year, but on opening day, no one knew for sure he would be bad. It was a new year and the slate should have been wiped clean, he didn't deserve that boo.

However, when a player is not producing, then he deserves some boos, plain and simple. If you are going to enjoy the cheers when you do good, you have to endure the boos when you are going bad.

I also agree with Don when he said that it stinks that Jimmy is essentially blaming the fans for their poor performance, that is weak. If you don't want to be booed, then play better. Did we start booing Ryan Howard on opening day? No, he didn't start hearing boos until he was hitting about .120 with 765 strikeouts after the first month of the season. So was it the fans fault he got off to that bad start? Did we not cheer enough? Give me a break that booing hurts a player.

If you don't like the boos and you feel the need to address it in the media, try this:
"We have been hearing a lot of booing lately at home, and we don't like to hear that. We want the booing to stop and we know that we need to start playing better to turn those boos into cheers. So you fans who enjoy booing, get it all out now, because we are going to turn this thing around and you won't have any more reason to boo us."

So all that being said, are there some badly intentioned boos in Philly? Sure there are, and those people need to chill. But most of the boos are deserved and the players need a thicker skin and should be using those boos as motivation to improve.

I am also curious as to what fans are expected to do when things are going bad? Are we supposed to cheer like everything is great? If we cheer when a Phillie strikes out with the bases loaded, does that encourage him to do better next time, or does it piss the team off because they think we are cheering for the opposing pitcher who just did something good. So I guess we should just sit there in silence when things go bad? Will it help the Phillies to play better in a completely quite stadium?

I'm really glad that some of you guys are really coming around to my posts about the dysfuntional lineup and need to make some serious overhauling to this team & organization as evidenced in the prior thread this morning. FInally common sense from many posters.

Gillick's final season as a major league GM sort of conjures up images of Willie Mays stumbling around in the OF as he was winding down his career with the Mets. Gillick has had a fine career as GM. But, to look at the events of this year, I can only conclude that his head isn't even in the game any longer.

As Denny points out in his excellent post, the offensive deficiencies have been literally screaming to be addressed for two months now. Yet, our GM can't even bring himself to make a minor move to upgrade the horrendous bench. Bruntlett and his .595 OPS has remained a core bench player all year long, while Jason Donald and his .900 OPS languishes at AA. The Yankees give up relatively little to get Xavier Nady. The RedSox at least attempt to get Brian Giles. The Phillies sit idly by and watch them do it. And, when injuries create roster vacancies, do we find a veteran cast-off or call up one of our own half-way decent minor league hitters like Donald or Slayden or even Brandon Watson? No, we call up minor league stiffs like T.J. Bohn or Brad Harman or Mike Cervenak.

However, the signature decision of Gillick's final season is his "decision" to keep So Taguchi on the roster 4 months into the season. This pretty much tells you all you need to know about how much attention Gillick is paying to the events on the field. And the fact that Gillick apparently spent the waning hours of July 31 trying to orchestrate a deal for a 9th No. 5 pitcher literally causes me to suspect that the Phillies are being run by a guy who has gone senile.

One more thing. My theory on why Jimmy decided to spout off about the fans booing is that it was a misguided attempt at leadership. I think he was trying to speak out for his teammates and get something positive out of this for the team. I honestly believe he was just trying to pick up his teammates and not rip the fans. However, it did not seem to work out very well. So I am not completely upset about Jimmy speaking out, I just wish he took a better approach.

Wes: I don't think so--last year in the playoffs when the Phillies looked lifeless against the Rockies, the place was a mausoleum after the first two innings. I was there. Everyone was just sort of numb.

Hey kdon! Missed ya.

Jimmy HAS to blame the fans they are the only ones who hold him accountable boo when he dogs it to first. Charlie is holding him accountable now but he's been doing it all year. The phantom GM says nothing about it unlike other teams. The owners are too busy counting their money...

Bubba - Cholly can only lead the horse to water, he cannot force it to drink.

Remember J-$hit's comments after his 4-4 night last week and how he told T-Crap that he actually woke up a little earlier than normal and made it to park early enough to get extra BP in the tunnel.

Unbelievable attitude by your MVP. He needs a change of scenery! It might turn out that THe best trade this team did not make was giving up Donald for an over the hill LOOGY in Mahay. J-$hit may just get his way and end up in Oak next season.

Which three tracks do you have, Tony?

kdon: Welcome back. And I've been meaning to tell you this for about the last 3 months: Remember our debate about who should make the final roster between Taguchi and Snelling? Well, never has anyone been more woefully wrong than I was. (Of course, had Snelling made the final cut, he would have spent 90% of the year on the DL . . . but that's a different matter).

"As Denny points out in his excellent post, the offensive deficiencies have been literally screaming to be addressed for two months now."

b-a-p: Are you sure you want to say this? I remember tossing in a whole bunch of posts about this over those two months and getting flak - like "no one has shown that offensive inconsistency is related to the W-L record." (That's a loose paraphrase.) I also remember how Carson was shouted down after the Phils went on their 35 run rampage (and then began mailing it in).

My apologies to Jimmy. While I haven't booed him in person, I have to admit that on many of the first pitches he "drove hard" (which in this case means "bounced meekly to a middle infielder") I booed mentally. Ya know: the players make it all about the money. "Show me the money," frankly, means that the fans, who are paying that money, do not need to be "supportive." Rollins is getting his support, with the happy smiling face of Benjamin Franklin.

They want tens of millions and oblivious smiley fans wearing rose-colored glasses? Not in this city. And, as one who went to games in Oakland for a while, not in that city either.

I'm "drew", but I have Crawl, Sex on Fire and Manhattan (great recording from Glastonbury).

>>You know it's bad baseball when you turn to gymnastics and pre-season football as a distraction.<<

You forgot Seinfeld reruns...

Does anyone else think there is too much drinking at the games? It seems to go hand in hand with bad fan behavior including booing your own team, cursing etc. I've been to most of the other ballparks in the country and don't see it as bad as here.
And the phillies games seem to be getting closer (but still not nearly as bad) as the Eagles crowds. Not a good thing.

andy: Yeah, I remember the debates. That was around mid-June when the Phillies were getting pummeled in inter-league play, and the popular theory was that we had just run into a string of good pitchers. But I think it's fair to say that the former advocates of that view (sophist comes right to mind) pretty much came around some time ago, when our offensive ineptitude continued into early July. By the time of the trade deadline, Pat Gillick must literally have been the only observer left in the entire world who thought that our offense was just fine. If he was even an observer, that is -- which is questionable.

Next time the Phillies plan on taking a vacation, I wish they'd let us know ahead of time, so we could coordinate our plans.

J: If the Phillies got a few more hits, people would drink less.

JW, I don't have any of the new tracks, Drew does. They'll be at the Electric Factory on November 15th. Tickets go on sale 9/12 per their website.


You look at the Pitching matchups for this weekend and think "god, they seem very favorable, but we'll definitely get shut out at least once."

J- I definitely think there's too much drinking at the games. That's why they can't hit. The Phils should switch to liquor because beer bloats them too much.

J: The younger crowds that seem to be going to the games certainly appear to drink quite a bit. It's the "place to be and to be seen," and the baseball game seems secondary to them. They buy the cheap tickets, usually on dollar dog nights (b/c, you know, all those beers are expensive, wouldn't want actual sustenance costs to get in the way of a good buzz), and then pay very little attention to the game.

I went to the second game of the season, Hamels on the mound vs. the Nats. He pitched a fantastic game, but (natch) the offense couldn't muster a single run. It was a 1-0 game. The dollar dogs rained down from the upper levels onto the field. Boos were deafening, for the second game of the season! So I do think there's a connection of sorts--I also don't understand the need for tailgating before every baseball game.

No wonder the football mentality crosses over into the baseball games. Tailgating is for football.

i wonder if they move utley to the one hole so he can just emphasize on getting on instead of trying to win the game every at bat which i suspect is his problem and move howard to the three spot asumming if he comes to bat with runners on they cant put that bermuda triangle shift hes been so apt to hit into on and his average would go up at least twenty points could this be a step in the right direction i apologize for lack of punctuation

"I'm sure I'll get a lot of flak for this"

it's so funny when you read people who say, that booing doesn't affect players. they should grow a pair etc. Yet there is boundless evidence to the contrary. We need only to look at the case of>Mike Schmidt as the perfect example.

"You're trying your damndest, you strike out and they boo you. I act like it doesn't bother me, like I don't hear anything the fans say, but the truth is I hear every word of it and it kills me."

His talent overcame much of that or in spite of it. But Phillies fans made his life miserable in this town. If you don't think that doesn't have an effect on a player you are an idiot.

I'm so tired of the "I'm just venting" argument. We've seen countless incidents of vitriol directed at players here on this blog from supposedly intelligent baseball consumers. At the end of the day you look childish and immature.

The Phillies record at home since the bank has opened has not been good. Not as good as it should be considering the talent. yes some of that has to do with the pitching on this team getting used to the homers. But we can look no further than Brett Myers who's home record this year was significantly better than his away record. He was terrible for a good portion of this year. But he learned to pitch at home. Look at the division leaders and look at their home records and compare it to ours. Our decent road record (before this week) showed that we had a chance of winning a playoff series or two in october. Unfortunately our Home Record indicates we won't win the division.

When the CBP is rocking, there is no better stadium in the country. NONE. But the nervous tension this town brings because of the lack of a championship has pushed this city completely over the edge. No one can enjoy a F**king baseball game anymore. Because every at bat is winning or losing a pennant. In April.

But there are some of you, who think this DOESN'T carry over to the players? You can't have it both ways. You can't think that your energy and cheering has effect on the players (again there is BOUNDLESS evidence that indicates that positive energy leads to victory.) I'll give you one. For those who were in attendance at the Division clinching game. The energy in that stadium was incredible. With the Mets falling apart and a one day playoff almost guaranteed, the stadium was willing a performance out of the team that was one for the ages from Rollins and Moyer and Howard and finally Myers.

The leader on this team is TELLING you that the booing affects not only him, but his teammates. He's giving you a frigging template for helping them win the division and further. And you sit there with your arms folded, stamping your feet, screaming "But I want to boooooooo" like some child who's not allowed a candy bar.

It's childish. It's pathetic.

When you a boo a player in their last at bat. When they come back the next time. The cheers are not as loud. And if they fail at that at bat. The boo's get louder. It builds on itself. If you don't get it. You are ignorant.

Booing should be reserved for the opponent. Or the umps. And clear cases of lack of hustle. And maybe the occasional politician or front office personnel.

Rollins is giving you a template for victory. And you want to ignore it, because of some bizarre genetic civic tradition.

Boo? F--K You.

i understand that some feel there is a need for wholesale change but something still must be tried we have some games left also why didnt charlie and company think of this or something else he just refuses to deviate from his plan much like andy reid

the heavy drinking at Phils games is mostly done by high school students, who are willing to pay $5 a beer to get served.

just to play devils advocate - is it fair to say they are mailing it in? Maybe its just a case of opposing pitchers learning how to the Phils hitters out. Maybe the effort is there, but the brains ain't.

Also as far as Gillick making changes, what exactly is he supposed to do? He has nothing to work with in the farm system, and maybe the brass figures its better to just hold on to some of the youngsters than piss them away on average veterans.

Knee jerk reaction is that Blanton deal was foolish, he doesn't appear any better than Happ and we blew our best prospect.

After a week of, I see not much has changed, except the Phillies are now a second place team again. My thought s on a few hot topics.

- This line-up as constructed was bound to have this happen to them. We all saw it coming, but were fooled into thinking early on this season (I know I was) that run production would never be a problem for these guys, especially while they were dominating other teams' pitching. The obvious problem is, with no interest in playing small ball so at least the big bats can knock them in, this team just makes too many outs. This is a classic example of a boxer vs a puncher. The puncher can knock you out on occasion, but the boxer will always out-point you. Without the long ball, this team is lost. It is frustrating to watch and I am thankful to go to bed by the 6'th or 7'th inning on this West Coast trip, so I may be spared the agony of the final score until morning.

- The day has come when I finally agree with Mike Cunningham. J-Strolls Philly fan comments are not that out of line, especially coming from an athlete's perspective. There are times that I am flat out embarrassed to be in the stands and call myself a Philly fan of any sport. When the fans at certain sports venues can take the high road, they usually don't. When someone points it out, they are offended. There is a time and place for booing, to which I am not against. I admit to an occasional boo over the years, but many times fans can be a little too harsh. Booing guys on opening day, to me, is too much negativity and crosses the line. Boo the owners if the guy is a stiff. They are the one's who brought them back to play another day. Shame on them. A bad game doesn't deserve a boo, a bad decision, probably does. Swinging at a first pitch instead of being selective while batting, sure, especially after going 0-4 with 2 GIDP. But booing just to boo, I don't buy it. Philly fans sometimes just like to act obnoxious to be noticed. (I was born and raised a Philly guy, so I don't want to hear any flak for that either). As fans, pick your spots to let athletes have a piece of your frustration. Constant criticism can only play on their psyche, which is fragile in some cases. Home field advantage when abused, can suddenly turn into home field-disadvantage.

I dunno, its so damned expensive to go to a baseball game today, I feel like the fans have less tolerance for poor play than they used to. When people are spending hundreds of dollars at the ball park and the team gets shut out, it makes them really mad.

sure blame the riff-raff

Drunk people don't boo, they pick fights with Mets fans and vomit in the playground.

I agree that there is too much drinking and have had the same experience as doubleh. For the first time I am starting to worry about bringing my family to the game. (Except for Sunday). Too many bad experiences.
I hear drunks arguing with security: "Its a baseball game-- you're allowed to curse."
They dont know or dont care how to behave.
The phillies wouldnt miss us-- we just buy cokes and hot dogs but its a shame if families stop coming and they cater to the "college night" crowd.

mikecunningham: I agree. Booing is bad and hurts the players emotionally. I'm concerned that they may develop some psychological problems if the booing doesn't stop. These guys could be institutionalized by age 40 and then they would be taking taxpayer money. Lets lay off these guys before they crack and end up in padded rooms.

While we're at it, lets ban kickball. I think it is psychologically damaging to the kids. They just can't grow up with that kind of adversity in their life. The horror of children having to overcome such an emotional challenge. Who would subject them to such outlandish activity?

Booing is the athletes kickball. The developing mind is too easily manipulated to overcome such adversity without suffering permanent damage. I also propose that MLB seriously consider using Nerf baseballs. The fragile psyche would be much more at ease (and much more likely to stay over the plate) if they didn't have to fear the ball.

"Rollins is giving you a template for victory. And you want to ignore it, because of some bizarre genetic civic tradition."

Oh c'mon Mike, your post was ridiculous, and indicative of exactly the overly entitled attitude that deserves to be booed. I mean, let's not forget that these guys get paid millions of dollars to play baseball! Every job has consequences for poor performance, but when most of us spend an entire year screwing up, we get fired and have to worry about feeding our families. When Jimmy screws up, he drives his sports car home to his mansion. The only consequence is getting booed. Big deal.

I've got a template for success for Jimmy:
--run hard even on pop-ups.
--get to the game on time.
--be more patient at the plate.

(this is directed at all the underperforming Phils too--I don't mean to just bash Rollins).


"They pay money to witness a game."

Unless I've misconstrued what you were saying, this is an argument that I just don't get. I wouldn't say that booing is "wrong," but no one forces fans to go to a game. They buy a ticket knowing full-well what team they're going to watch. If they choose to buy a ticket to watch a mediocre team, and then boo the players because they think that the players should be better than they are, that's on the fans.

Philly fans love to boo. They consistently booed one of the best 3rd basement in the history of the game, and I was there booing along with everyone else.

This schizophrenia is ridiculous. Philly fans, as an overall characteristic, love to boo. They pay admission to the park so that they can boo. A player says the obvious - that Philly fans like to boo - and then Philly fans and then act like they're not "fair-weather fans" and whine because they've been called out.

Just to add, I'm only talking about a general characteristic, as was Rollins. Obviously, not ALL Philly fans like to boo.

Oops. Drew, send Sex on Fire and Manhattan, please, to my BL email, on the right sidebar.

About 2 months ago I posted some facts about the Phils offense. They were 2nd in the NL in runs scored at the time behind the Cubs, but I argued that they were inconsistent. Their run total was blown up by some big outbursts, but many games they were barely scoring any runs. I got hammered by posters on BL, and I shut up and let it alone. In this case, it sucks for me being right all along.

Again, I think it all boils down to this city having too much of the football mentality for baseball. People act like every game, every pitch, every at-bat is important because in football every play and every game is important. But there are 162 games to only 16--it's too long of a season to get up and down for every game. You have to keep an even keel. It's something that has to be learned; it wasn't easy for me to make the transition.

And the "paying good money to watch the game so I can boo if I want to" argument doesn't hold water; don't buy the tickets if you want to be assured a victory. There are no guarantees in life.

I save the booing for egregious play by my team or heckling the opponent. Heckling the opponent is one of the great joys in sports life.


" In this case, it sucks for me being right all along....."

You get my vote for the BL HOF with your accurate characterization of the offense. You stood silently stoic against the onslaught of ridicule.

We are not worthy.

Phlipper- About time you bow down and praise me!

kdon: you understand me all too well.

cunningham: right on. Nice to see I'm not the only one with a strong opinion in agreement with Rollins' comments. If fans want the players to be accountable, then it works both ways. The fans have to be accountable as well, and if they were half as honest as Rollins, they would sit and maybe think about this instead of responding with knee-jerk sarcasm and outrage. And they might still disagree. But that's a lot different than refusing to even consider the issue from another perspective.

cholly was too easy on them and they got soft.

The Phillies need a manager who'll tell players they deserve to get booed. Cholly would never say "Jimmy, its nothing personal. they're booing you because you've sucked this year. " Larry Bowa, on the other hand...


I'm in complete agreement. Talk about entitlement.

As I recall, although the Red Sox sucked for many years, I don't recall the Sox fans booing any of their own players outside of Jim Rice. I don't recall that the Cubs' fans booed their own players. It's a bit hard to imagine Philly fans ever calling a team "lovable losers."

Some dude politely asked for the comparison to 2007 and 1980 records.

1 win worse than both teams, 2 games closer to 1st than the 2007 team, 2 1/2 games closer than the 1980 team.

All hail GM-Carson.

"as far as Gillick making changes, what exactly is he supposed to do? He has nothing to work with in the farm system, and maybe the brass figures its better to just hold on to some of the youngsters than piss them away on average veterans.."

Your logic makes no sense. If our prospects are all garbage, then why are they worth hanging onto when they might be traded for an average veteran player? An average veteran player would be a huge improvement over someone like Taguchi or Bruntlett or Ruiz or Cervanek. And if our prospects are good enough that they're worth holding onto, why not call a few of them up to take the place of some of the decidedly BELOW average veterans like the ones I just named?

Just because our farm system stinks does not mean that we don't have individual players who could out-perform some of the garbage on our current team. We do. Why haven't they been tried? Our GM is living in outer space. Our offense has been flailing for the last 2 months, and he thinks the team's biggest need is a 9th starter. The failure to attempt even a minor improvement to the offense is totally unacceptable and there is nothing -- literally nothing -- that can be said in defense of it.

If they all take a serious pay cut when they suck this bad, I'm willing to cheer them on for the self-less effort they put in on behalf of the team. Of course if they play worse (or dumber) than their previous year and then demand more money, how is that not at least related to "maling it in?"

Maybe the players left over from the Bowa era are just soft. They couldn't take the heat when "Lehwy picked on us", now they can't deal with booing.

I feel like I'm watching "One Flew Over the Cukoo's Nest." Ken Kesey had some psychological problems, but he was heavily using mind altering drugs. What are the Phillies excuses for being so sensitive?

Instead tossing turds into the punchbowl why doesn't J-Roll come to the park a few hours early and teach R. Howard how to throw to second base?

There is definitely a much harder edge to Phillies fans when compared to other NE teams. Boston boos the OPPOSING players unmercibly...not their own...maybe we should try that.

Is professional baseball now the Special Olympics or scholastic athletics ? Everyone should be cheered regardless of performance.

The Phillies owners should throw huge parties at their new houses, and invite all the Phillies fans so they can see where their money went.

The Phils have scored 7+ run 30 times this year. In those 30 games they have a record of 28-2 and have scored 276 runs for an average of 9.2 runs per game.

The Phils have scored 6 or less runs 91 times this season. In those 91 games they have a record of 36-55 and have scored 313 runs for an average of 3.4 runs per game.

*If the offense could only slug out 7 or more runs per game this team would be good to go.

Instead of booing...why not save your money and not go to the game?

There is very little Charlie or the FO can do at this point.
1. Starting pitching seems to be in the best shape in a long time. Hamels being hamels, Myers looking the best he has in a looong time, Moyer, the best he has since coming to the Phils. Blanton much better than Eaton but still a little inconsistent. he reminds me of Lieber - when he doesn't have it, you know right away. And Kendrick being Kendrick

2. The bullpen is burnt out. My thinking - use JC as the setup guy, use Durbin in the 6th-7th and mix Madson and Eyre in.

3. The line-up? Well we need a couple of major leaguers, I like the idea of Millar and/or Huff. And I still say bring on Bonds or Lofton - both change the clubhouse dynamics and will challenge people for playing time. Besides that, I shake up the batting order significantly with all the suggestions we have repeatedly made. Why not drop Chase to 5th or 6th a couple of games. I guarantee you light a fire in the guy. Same with J-Roll. Why not sit Howard 2 days in a row and get him thinking. As bad as Burrell has looked, I'd like to see Bonds in Left a few nights. Victorino is ailing, lets see Lofton leading off and starting something.

RSB: I agree with what Rollins said to a degree, but I think the word choice he used in the term "front runner" was wrong and blanket statements or gross generalizations are never the way to go. Also, comparing one city to another is unfair, especially a city which is more the exception than the rule.

With that being said, this city could stand to loosen up a bit and perhaps, just perhaps, not let everything escape from their lips that enters their minds. You know, use a filter. Count to 10, whatever works.

Did anyone hear Randy Miller on Macknow's show this week say Uggy Urbina had gotten into a fight on Detroit's team plane the day before he was traded to the Phils. He said its widely known around baseball circles that every team knew (except Phils) that this occurred and that Urbina was going to be released on the day he got traded to us. Thats explains, at the time, Detroit readily gave him up for Polanco who was thought of at the time as just a good utility guy. Brilliant move by Mr. Wade. Boy would it have been nice to have Polanco these past four years so we wouldn't have wasted our time with the likes of Bell, Nunez, Helms, Dobbs and FEliz. Polanco is the exact type of player this team needs. A guy that makes contact and can spray the ball all over the field.

The injury to Vic only compounds the Phils problems. He was one of the only hitters actually doing well of late.

Looks up and down our lineup at the batting averages and you find a bunch of guys performing at or below league average...hence the stranding or runners.

In Philly, we like dingers not banjos.

it's so funny when you read people who say, that booing doesn't affect players. they should grow a pair etc. Yet there is boundless evidence to the contrary. We need only to look at the case of Mike Schmidt as the perfect example.

Seems more like the perfect counterexample. He got booed a lot, bitterly complained about it, yet ended up being maybe the greatest third baseman of all time and baseball's 12th most prolific home run hitter. Are you suggesting he could've been even better if he were booed less? Of course, there are probably are many examples of talented players who wilted in towns with tough fans, but Schmidt's not a good example.

I have no problem with what Jimmy said about booing, I'm not a big fan of it, although everyone has the right. I take exception to the "front-runner" comment, and it is still bugging me. Philly is a tough town, tougher than many, and that will never change. Therefore, Jimmy should have never said anything and put himself into the limelight...just foolish.

I think sometimes the booing is for the FO; the players are just surrogates. It's like yelling at the cell phone customer service rep on the phone even though she's not the one who made the stupid policies. I'm not a boo-er, but I'd make an exception for Dave Montgomery and Co.

yeah i'm a hardcore booer but would gladly substitute a "sell the team" chant.

Jimmy has caused a distraction from the poor disturbing thing, the Phils are horrible lately. Jimmy has cast the negative fanbase eye upon him, while the Phils continue to struggle mightily. If it weren't for his "front-runner" comment just imagine all the verbal venom that would be cast at the entire team than solely at him right now.

This team can still win and win it all but things are gonna have to get mixed up to get them going. It will be too late if something isn't done now I would rather think about that than how booing effects a pro athlete's mindset if your gonna boo then boo stop talking about it please

Looked into that "1st 4 game sweep in LA since 1962" stat.

4 game series in LA since 1962:


6 2-2 splits
5 each 3-1 series

1992 played a 5 gm series (Us, 3-2)

Swept at least 13 times in 3 game series there...including twice in 1983. Google that NLCS in 1983 if you're not old enough or know enough history to know the result.

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EST. 2005

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