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Wednesday, July 16, 2008

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I'm not going to go back and re-read the All-Star thread... but part of me was rooting for Brad Lidge to give up a run. Frankly, I was worried about Scott Kazmir. This is a guy with arm trouble in his past, pitching just two days after going over 100 pitches, pitching on a team fighting for a playoff spot, against the team who's manager was putting him on the mound.

Can you imagine what would have happened had Kazmir gone back out there and injured himself? That four pitch walk he gave up was brutal to watch.

I suppose I shouldn't care much about other team's players... but it would have been a big blow to the game had this ended badly.

Besides, if Lidge is going to have a bad appearance, let it be in a game that doesn't matter to us!

I have more confidence in Myers than in Eaton. Myers, when he's "on" (like in the Cinci game), has dominant stuff. Eaton, when "on," will never dominate a lineup. He doesn't even have mastery over the Mets anymore. He no longer serves any purpose on this roster.

It's time to see if Happ can cut it, too, for the long-term. Eaton isn't the future, and Moyer's contract is up.

doubleh: Yeah, that's an easy one. Myers > Eaton. Hopefully this time down has given Myers more confidence in his fastball and helped him locate his pitches better.

Either way, we had to bring him up for a couple starts to see what we've got. If he bombs out, at least we'll know before the trade deadline!

Check out the peaks and valleys to the game at fangraphs.com:

http://www.fangraphs.com/livewins.aspx?gameid=280715131

Wild. Lidge (-.357) subtracted the most WPA of any pitcher with Wagner (-.298) second. Volquez, who gave up the tying two run shot, was third.

Uggla had the most of any hitter, and any other player for that matter. -.634. By a long shot.

If you want to get a sense of how badly the reserves performed and how much rode on their bats, check out the bottom batters in WPA on the NL team: Uggla, Guzman, Hart, Braun, Ludwick, Gonzalez.

Drew had by far the highest WPA of any position player on the AL: .583. Sherril would have been a good choice for MVP: 2.1 IP and only 1 hit allowed and 0 BB. .460 WPA.

Notice that Uggla subtracted well more value than Drew added, though.

--------------

"Who's worse: Byrd, Wolf or Blanton?"

Wolf is the worst by far.

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I'm optimistic about Myers as well.

i'm curious this morning about this Matt Holliday rumor. supposedly, the Phils have kicked the tires on Holliday in a let's-just-slug-'em-to-death approach to the post-season. and i can't say i'm disappointed in this alternative approach. the pitching options are studded with red flags (injury history, troubling contracts, ethical questions, plain old mediocrity) so this alternative approach is intriguing. Holliday would provide power AND AVERAGE from the right side, and would be a sufficient replacement for Burrell should he leave after this season, which now seems likely.
so what would the Phils have to give up to get Holliday? would Golson, Donald/Cardenas, Werth do it?

Cube: I'd have to think the Rockies would want a King's Ransome for Holliday. If they wanted Carrasco and Marson just for Fuentes, I shudder to think of how much they'd want for Holliday (although his numbers are much better at Coors than on the road).

Cube: No... Golson, Donald/Cardenas would not do it. The Rockies want a major package for Holiday and I'm pretty sure I read they want a ML-ready arm (that would likely be Carrasco since I doubt they want Happ) in addition to other prospects.

granted, i don't have a strong handle on prospect valuation, but i have to think the demand for two top prospects for Fuentes is just posturing by the Rockies. a left-handed reliever is arguably the most coveted asset right now, so why wouldn't they ask for the moon? as i learned fundraising, you'll never get what you don't ask for. with that said, Sabathia cost one major prospect and some filler, same for Harden. Fuentes is not a comparable talent. which leads me back to my original point, i think the Rockies are just posturing to get the best deal possible on Fuentes. but still, Holliday will cost a lot. what does that package look like from the Phillies?

The Rockies will not get two top prospects for Fuentes. Of course they are posturing.

CJ: Agreed, I had no problem at all with Lidge giving up a run. it's an exhibition game, at 1:30 AM, in a half-empty stadium. Get the game over with. If Kazmir had gotten hurt, it would have been an absolute disgrace. As I said last night, I'm now thrilled that Hamels didn't make the team.

From Buster Olney (hope I'm not repeating from last thread):

"The Phillies are casting a wide net in their search for pitching (although A.J. Burnett is not among those they're considering at this time), checking in on the availability of Joe Blanton of the Athletics and others. But the perception of the Phillies, through the eyes of rival executives, is that they're not especially motivated right now to make a deal. Perhaps they want to wait to see what Brett Myers has to offer in his return to the big leagues -- and according to Jim Salisbury, he could be back next week."

I've said before that, given the available options, I'm not so sure we wouldn't be better off targeting a big bat. Holliday would certainly qualify. Of course, the team that acquires him should realize that he isn't going to be a .335 hitter with 35 homeruns away from Coors. At any other park, he'll be closer to a .300 hitter with 25 homerun power. That would still help the Phillies immensely, even if he's something of a butcher in the OF.

well what do you know. in my slow day of work today, i just checked out si.com and found a feature from Heyman on Holliday. here is what he said about what O'Dowd is looking for:
"While the likelihood appears to be that Holliday stays put for now, O'Dowd is said to be open-minded about his interests; a canvass of competing GMs indicates that he has sought a variety of packages in return, from big leaguers to prospects to a mixture of the two, depending on what works for each potential trading partner."

the Holliday story is intriguing but good pitching always beats good hitting and although he may get us the division, the Phillies would not have the pitching to go anywhere in the playoffs.

http://myteamrivals.typepad.com/phightin_phils_phorum

If Gordon wasnt hurt would Eaton even have a place in the bullpen? I wouldn't put him ahead of Condrey on a depth chart.

Other thoughts: At least Wagner blew the save which means the Mets fans can't come here and bash Lidge. And Uggla pretty much lost the AS game for the NL with his 3 Errors.

Happ give the Phils a better chance to win than Eaton. It's that simple.

Uggla also left 6 men on base.

BAP - I agree that most teams have to realize Holliday puts up lesser numbers on the road. I am sure they know this. I don't think we'll get Holliday, but the other thing to realize is that CBP is pretty friendly to RH slugging bats. Holliday would see a decrease in his doubles at CBP, but I think he'd put up huge HR numbers with the short porch in left field.

If Phils prospects can't land pitching, I doubt they could land Holliday. I'm all up for trying though, especially if it's between he and Joe Blanton or Paul Byrd.

Holliday is NOT a good fielder, true, he nearly cost the Rockies that tie-breaker game with his defense before he won it for them without touching the plate... but i digress... but Vic's defense is so good in center, i'm confident we can cheat on defense at the corners. what interests me most about Holliday is not his power, but his average. he's still hitting .301 away from coors this year. his consistency would be a fine addition to a middle of the lineup that is much too streaky through the first half.
how about this offer? Werth (replaces MH), Golson (future CF, freeing them to trade Taveras), Cardenas (to fill the 2B void), and a pitcher of the Carpenter/Bastardo ilk?

Sounds like Brett Myers will become both their biggest offeseason acquisition and biggest trade deadline acquisition.

Agreed on Happ. He could be a viable alternative to the aging Jamie Moyer next year, as well as a very nice replacement to Adam Eaton this year. Given the success he has seen so far, it's time to find out. Also, I'd rather cut ties with Eaton than to banish him to the pen. He has repulsed me that much!

Holliday

Career at Coors: .364/.427/.659 -- 78 HR, 96 2B
Dolphin Stadium: .297/.409/.486 -- 0 HR, 5 2B
Dodger Stadium: .234/.299/.363 -- 13 HR, 5 2B
Shea: .281/.349/.351 -- 1 HR, 1 2B
CBP: .283/.356/.547 -- 4 HR, 2 2B

Next to Busch Stadium (?) CBP is where Holliday has the highest SLG outside of Coors (in places where he has a significant number of AB.)

If the Phils take Carrasco, Marson and even Golson off the table (as has been suggested), there's no way they get Holliday and it's not likely they would get either Bedard or Burnett.

"Sounds like Brett Myers will become both their biggest offeseason acquisition and biggest trade deadline acquisition."

Love this comment. Just imagine if Myers came back strong *and* the FO made a move for another starter.

I think Moyer will be back next season if he finishes with an ERA under 5. His stuff has aged well over the past few years.

On a Holliday trade: Werth, Golson, Cardenas and Carrasco would likely get it done but that's a steep price for a guy that will be gone in a year and a half (His contract is up after 2009 I believe and he definitely wants to test the market). I don't think the Rockies would want either Carpenter or Bastardo though considering that Carpenter failed miserably this year and Bastardo is an extreme flyball pitcher who also is currently hurt.

How has Myers looked in his three minor league starts?

Like he's taking advantage of lower quality hitting.

The Rockies believe they can compete, if not this year, but next when everyone is back healthy. To think they would go for a prospect package + Werth is a real stretch.

Sophist: "Just imagine if Myers came back strong *and* the FO made a move for another starter."

Yeah, that's exactly what I was talking about yesterday. A strong return from Myers and the acquisition of Burnett or Bedard... that'd be nice. But if Myers looks really good the next few starts, that will probably make the team less likely to deal for a starter. Happ or Carrasco would be the guy to replace Eaton when he blows up officially.

Why is Cole Hamels not opening the series in Florida friday night? It is his day to go (since he started on Sunday), and it would mean that he would get to pitch against the Mets next week.

WTF...seems like a logical thing to do...or at least pitch him Saturday in Miami and Thursday against the Mets. Now he will miss the Mets two (crucial) series in a row.

****The Rockies believe they can compete, if not this year, but next when everyone is back healthy. To think they would go for a prospect package + Werth is a real stretch.****

Good point...I wouldn't do that deal either.

Why is Cole Hamels not opening the series in Florida friday night? It is his day to go (since he started on Sunday), and it would mean that he would get to pitch against the Mets next week.

WTF...seems like a logical thing to do...or at least pitch him Saturday in Miami and Thursday against the Mets. Now he will miss the Mets two (crucial) series in a row.

For one, I don't think Golson's really "off the table". I have a hunch they are throwing his name out there as if he's "untouchable" to drive up his value, if that's humanly possible.

Burnett-b/c of his contract, the Phils don't want to include Carrasco/Marson and I can understand why.

Bedard-he'd have to pitch a game or 2 before the deadline before a deal is made. I'd have to think they'd consider one of their "top prospects".

Holliday-I'd assume they'd include Golson, b/c he's an OFer and maybe Werth + others, obviously. If they don't get a pitcher who costs big $$, they could even try to bag PtB for next season and go "all in" with that lineup.

Maybe Brett Myers is tipping his pitches.

I've been wondering the same thing about why Hamels is not being put on top of the rotation for the second half. Seems Cholly is giving him a little extra time off. I'd prefer to see him against hte Mets next week and, also, if we can squeeze one more start out of his season, do it.

Joe: They reshuffled their starting rotation to give Cole extra rest. I assume they're looking at long term gain vs. short term gain. Cole has been heavily used in the first half.

Holliday's looking for a long-term deal. That's the new thing; these trades happen with the caveat being the new team works out an extension. Does anyone think the Phils are ready to pony up $20 million a season for him?

I'd do it though. There's no way the Rockies would settle for Werth and prospects. They'd need ready pitching.

BedBeard- i agree completely about Golson. i think he'll go in a deal at the deadline, but i'd be surprised to see either Marson or Carrasco go considering what's left.

Cole gets an extra day of rest by starting Saturday instead of Friday, and he would still be able to pitch in the Mets series (Thursday).

Just doesn't make sense not to have him pitch in the Mets series (again). That is a huge series - we need to take 2 of 3.

I'd trade Golson in a second.

Ugh. More and more it sounds like the Phils are going to spin this crap about Myers returning as a huge upgrade to the starting rotation. Same goes for the inevitable return of Gordon to the pen.

Get so tired of the middling approach this team takes that includes leaving a bum like Eaton in the rotation almost solely due to the fact that the Phils owe him over $10M yet.

I am going on record today that for the 3rd year in a row, the Phils will do almost nothing at the trade deadline except acquiring 1 or 2 second-tier players like a part-time OF, situational lefty for the pen, or a back-end rotation guy.

Jason- how close are Golson and Cardenas to being MLB ready? if the Rox are looking to trade Holliday now, they're punting on '08. so would the prospects in that deal be MLB ready by 2009? maybe we could sneak past them without offering pitching... the Rox seem like an oddball team to me in that they have a strong, young pitching core (see: post-season success, 2007) who have either spent considerable time this year on the DL or in a sophomore slump. if they're in it to win it next year, they'll be counting on those pitchers, not ours. it's the Rox's big name poisitional players that are getting too expensive that they have to replace. how far off am i on this one?

If the Phils can trade Golson for any help for the big league club, I would do it. Hell, if they can even get a live arm that might help them in the bullpen next year I would do that too. Still think the Phils aren't going to resign Burrell this year though and try to push the BS notion that Golson will be a key piece of the OF next year with diasasterous results.

MG: That's a very safe bet.

My prediction on Myers:

Better numbers than the first half (not really that difficult considering he was one of the worst starters in MLB) but still pretty mixed with a .500 record and an ERA around 4.75.

An upgrade from the first half - yeah but no difference maker either.

NL East is up for grabs and this stupid FO will just sit by and watch someone else take it. Here's a tip: 2007 is not going to repeat itself. We cannot rely on other teams falling apart, we have to make ours better.

Simply infuriating. I wonder if Gillick is really this bad (Stand Pat) or to what extend his hands are tied by the Phils M.O.

Clout - If they do, then Gillick and Co. should be ripped considerably because once again over teams went out and made the necessary upgrades while this team sat on its hands again.

One thing I hope is that the stupid utilization of Lidge last night by Hurdle (one of the worst managers in the NL if not the worst) leads to an injury. Besides Hamels, Lidge is arguably the player the Phils could least afford right now to go on the DL.

Cube: Golson is unlikely to ever be a significant major league player. Think Reggie Taylor.

Cardenas is a high-quality Class A prospect who projects as a major leaguer someday (although not as a middle infielder), but at age 20 is at least 3 years away. But he is an excellent baseball player, unlike Golson, who is an excellent athlete.

I'm not Jason but I'll take a stabe at the Golson/Cardenas question:

Golson: Maybe next year maybe never. He could come up right now and be Michael Bourn with less plate discipline and a tad less speed but that won't help us or anyone longterm. If he can't increase his plate discipline and pitch recognition he'll never make it to the Majors.

Cardenas: Easily 2 years. He'll spend the rest of this season at Clearwater workign on his fielding and consistency at the plate (his numbers have drawn off a tad a the plate over the past few months but he's still batting .309 on the season after a redhot start. He'll probably need another full year at Reading next year and if he successfully makes that jump he'd be a contender for big league club in 2010...assuming everything goes well. There's also the possibility that he never develops...it happens even to the best of prospects.

Cube: It comes down to this. The Rox were in the World Series less than a year ago. They're not interested in dealing an MVP candidate for Golson, a marginal prospect at best, and Cardenas, who's a few years away.

Not sure if this was mentioned on the previous thread, but I just wanted to mention this about the New York fans as hosts of the All Star Game. From the press sensationalizing Papelbon's comments about closing instead of Rivera, to threatening his pregnant wife in the parade, to booing Chase in the HR Derby, the New York fans looked classless. I think they embarrassed themselves. Yet, the media will never drop the whole "Philly boo birds" story line cliche. It's just too easy for most of the mindless and lazy media to let that go.

Anyway, the All Star game was a disaster for the rest of baseball fans (especially kids) around the country again - a 1:37 AM finish is terrible.

"Simply infuriating. I wonder if Gillick is really this bad (Stand Pat) or to what extend his hands are tied by the Phils M.O."

Hold your fire, they're in 1st, they've been linked with mostly everyone at this point and the deadline hasn't even passed yet.

A note on my Cardenas projection: That's the best case scenario...he could easily be 3-4 years away if he's plateaus at AA next year.

We booed Santa 30 years ago and are thus the worst fans in existence...

MG: I wouldn't assume that Eaton is in the rotation in the second half. I'll be surprised if Myers and Happ aren't both in the rotation.

MG - you are right in the past years when the Phillies were in contention that Ed Wade would make the famous "Mike Williams/Dennis Cook/Turk Wendell" type bullpen acquisition. Of course in 2006 the Phillies made a lot of upgrades to their roster for the stretch drive by acquiring CJ Henry, Matt Smith, Wilfredo Laureano, Hector Made, Justin Germano and Carlos Monastrios...good deals!!

FWIW: Baseball America's midseason top 25 prospect List Honorable Mention: Adrian Cardenas. Not Lou Marson or Carlos Carrasco


Gillick's strength has been small in season moves in his tenure as Phillies GM. I think he'll make some good acquisitions though I don't see him making a huge splash.

Bedrosian's Beard: I just see this playing out the way it always does because I've become accustomed to the inaction as a Phillies fan. Believe me, if they do something significant, I'll be the first one on here with a mea culpa and happy to do it. I just don't see anything major happening just as MG said. They leak rumors from the FO all the time about players they are sniffing around all the time to make it look like they plan to do something big so they can say, "Oh, well--we tried!" all the time. Call me a cynic, but I just don't feel optimistic at this point (and it doesn't help that all our pharm prospects are so woeful).

Cube: Golson is unlikely to ever be a significant major league player. Think Reggie Taylor.

Cardenas is a high-quality Class A prospect who projects as a major leaguer someday (although not as a middle infielder), but at age 20 is at least 3 years away. But he is an excellent baseball player, unlike Golson, who is an excellent athlete.

Sorry for the poor grammar there; result of staying up too late for the ASG and a toddler who was up at 7:30am.

****FWIW: Baseball America's midseason top 25 prospect List Honorable Mention: Adrian Cardenas. Not Lou Marson or Carlos Carrasco****

They tend to base that off potential upside so its not surprising. Neither Marson or Carrasco has the AS potential that Cardenas supposedly has. Marson doesn't hit for power yet and Carrasco is middle of the rotation in most estimates. Cardenas could be a star if he can stay at 2B with his average and power.

Right-It's all about potential upside.

That's what worries me about Carrasco: I think some people are expecting more from the guy that he might really be.

I'm hesitant to defend the FO, but are they really hamstrung by "the powers that be," or are they limited by the available talent pool and by a weak farm and a big-league team stretched thin?

I just don't think our prospects and expendable major leaguers are that attractive to other teams, and I don't think there's a lot of game-changing talent available out there (after Sabathia already changed hands).

chaz, its a combination of a hard spending cap by the ownership group and a weak prospect field in our minor leagues (though that is also a result of the spending issues). It also doesn't help that there isn't much else available now that Sabathia and Harden are gone.

I don't think it's unreasonable to hope that Carrasco will become a #2 or at least a #3 starter. He's young and cheap... and as a compliment to Hamels, could be an important part of this team's future.

Just because a pitching prospect isn't likely to become an ace, that doesn't mean that prospect isn't EXTREMELY valuable.

Young starting pitching is the rarest commodity in baseball (except for, perhaps, good catching prospects!).

I look at Carrasco and see someone who could be a #3 at best and a solid backend of the rotation guy. That's a great thing to have especially when its cheap. I don't think he'll ever have the stuff or consistency to be a #2 on a good team.

CJ: Good points.

NEP: Hmmm... at 21 years old, I'm not willing to declare he lacks the stuff and consistency to be a #2 on a good team.

There's also the saying that there is no such thing as a pitching prospect due to the uncertainlys surrounding them with injury threats and the difficulty in projecting young pitching talent if your name isn't Billy Beane.

****NEP: Hmmm... at 21 years old, I'm not willing to declare he lacks the stuff and consistency to be a #2 on a good team.****

That's fair...I'm being a tad harsh with him but I think of a #2 on a playoff team as more of a 1B type guy (someone who'd be an Ace on 2nd division team). A rotation where Carrasco ends up being your 3rd option would be very strong if he pans out like I think he will.

CJ: Agree with you totally. For some odd reason many posters here tend to overvalue some prospects (Golson) while badly undervaluing others, like Carrasco. Take a quick look at BA's Top 100 or the individual Phillies Top 20 to get some sense of where they rank. To lump Golson in with Cardenas & Carrasco & Marson is a joke. It'd be like lumping Roberson in with Utley & Rollins.

CJ: Agree with you totally. For some odd reason many posters here tend to overvalue some prospects (Golson) while badly undervaluing others, like Carrasco. Take a quick look at BA's Top 100 or the individual Phillies Top 20 to get some sense of where they rank. To lump Golson in with Cardenas & Carrasco & Marson is a joke. It'd be like lumping Roberson in with Utley & Rollins.

clout: Agreed. It's time to sell Golson. Sell him fast. His value will NEVER be higher. He should NOT be the LFOTF in place of Pat Burrell. Hopefully someone out there thinks he's pretty good... now let's get whatever we can for him.

Cardenas, Carrasco and Marson may all have good, productive futures will us. None will likely be Hall of Famers and maybe never even All Stars... but that doesn't mean they can't help us win.

If we decide to trade our top prospects, we damn well better get something very good in return.

****If we decide to trade our top prospects, we damn well better get something very good in return****

I.E. Not Brian Fuentes!!! CJ we are in complete agreement here.

Baseball Prospectus has some interesting notes today:

* Pat Gillick has heard the talk about him moving back to Seattle as team president, but doesn’t seem that interested. As for the conflict of interest in the ongoing Erik Bedard discussions, Gillick has always taken a backseat to Mike Arbuckle when it comes to these and Ruben Amaro has been involved as well with prospect discussions. The deal isn’t going to get serious until Bedard gets back on the mound and proves he’s healthy. For their part, the Mariners seem ready to dump a couple guys, but it’s hardly a fire sale.

* A.J. Burnett’s contract status is holding back trade talks. Unlike pitchers that need to prove their healthy, Burnett’s status for 2009-2010 is acting as a barrier. While most talked about not wanting a player that could opt out, the contract as written is something of a safety net in case he’s injured again. One team demanded a PTNBL be included in the deal on both sides that could be thought of as salary ballast, but the Jays never got close on that.

Ah, but we know that the management philosophy here is "small ripples", not "big splashes". Patience.

"To lump Golson in with Cardenas & Carrasco & Marson is a joke. It'd be like lumping Roberson in with Utley & Rollins."


clout, not according to Marty Wolever. Remember his interview after they drafted Hewitt in June. He said (paraphrasing) that you don't get players like Greg Golson unless you take players like Hewitt. (I was stunned by the hubris.) I suspect the FO does really think much more highly of Golson than you do.

FWIW, I tend to agree with you. There is very little in Golson's minor league track record to suggest he is capable of hitting MLB pitching. (....and Greg, if my posting that hurts anyone in your family's feelings, I apologize. If it hurts yours then perhaps you need to get mentally tougher.)

"Simply infuriating. I wonder if Gillick is really this bad (Stand Pat) or to what extend his hands are tied by the Phils M.O."

BB already added an addendum to this, and I'll add my own. Gillick's hands are tied because either he, or someone in the organization, has made the decision to put their two best prospects off limits. There may well be sound reasons for this. But the reality is, second-tier prospects are not going to land you even a starting pitcher off the "B list," such as Bedard or Burnett. Now we're down to the C-list with names like Blanton.

I would note that the reason Carrasco is so untouchable is not because he's some kind of can't-miss future stud (one need only look at his minor league numbers to disspell this notion). It's because he is the only guy in our high minor leagues who has great stuff and a high upside. If the Phillies paid higher bonuses to their draft picks and Latin American signees, we might have 3 or 4 high upside pitchers at Double A right now who fit the same profile as Carrasco. Ownership's penny-pinching ways are the reason why our minor league system is so perpetually thin, and that is precisely the reason why we are never able to put together the type of prospects package that is necessary when trading for a big-time major league player.

As for Golson being untouchable . . . surely that is just posturing to incresae his perceived value. Right? The Phillies can't seriously believe that Golson is their starting left fielder of the future. Can they?

AWH: I missed that quote. Is Wolever suggesting that someday Hewitt will be able to post a 49/2 K/BB ratio in AA some day? In fairness, Golson has improved that to 80/14 this season. That makes his 2 season total 129/16 or about 8 to 1. Has anyone with an 8 to 1 K/BB ratio in AA ever turned into a quality major leaguer?

To be fair...

Does anyone expect the Phillies front office to talk down Greg Golson? That would be stupid.

Golson should be the first prospect traded...Golson, Jaramillo and Donald should all be gone for help now. All 3 are expendable.

CJ: Excellent point. I remember when the FO was talking up Zach Segovia.

Honestly, I hope the Phils move Golson for anything that will help the club this year or a bullpen arm that might help them next year.

Didn't Hewitt K 4 times in his first game? I think he is doing his Golson impression.

"Gillick's hands are tied because either he, or someone in the organization, has made the decision to put their two best prospects off limits."

Isn't it amazing that an organization with a terrible minor league system for years always has a list of untouchables down there?

Want I want to know is this - what kind of maximum upside so the Phils see with a guy like Golson? Maybe a guy who hits .240-.250 with some pop (20 HRs) and speed but plagued by a really poor OBP.

Seems to me that Golson would almost have to have plus power (say 30 HRs+) to really consider him a really interesting prospect. He just doesn't though and that is ignoring all of the obvious issues with his pitch recognition/swing issues.

Matt Cain would be effin' sweet! Talk about the young right-handed compliment to Hamels! I'd take him over any other pitcher currently being mentioned in trade talks!

http://www.phillyburbs.com/pb-dyn/news/102-07162008-1563646.html

BobbyD - I have laughed at that too. Bunch of largely rotten fruit and the Phils have to protect the few viable pieces they have.

I would trade anyone in the minors SF asked for for Matt Cain. He's better than Carrasco will probably ever be. And I can see SF moving him. Interesting name.

I would even consider Golson!!

The good thing about dealing with the Giants - if that trade would come to be - is that SF is the one team that is actually deep in young pitching that could consider a deal like Minnesota did with Garza to TB for Delmon Young. Not many teams are in SF's position. Now the Phillies don't have a Delmon Young type in their system - but the right combination of players could do the trick. Eliminating the necessity for the most part of the Giants needing young pitching and the possibility is not as bleak as you might think on first glance.

Why would the Giants, who are old, move a 24 year old who is making 950k this season? The Phillies have nothing in their farm system that could swing that deal.

Particularly since a team like the Brewers, who are still loaded with hitters in the minors, would have much more to offer the Giants.

Because with Sanchez and Lincecum the Giants have the young pitching for years. Cain would be the one to go because of their sincere lack of quality young offensive players. Pitching is the name of the game, but you need to score to win. Are the Phillies the team that has enough to get Cain, well probably not. But it's not unlike the Garza situation...or really even the Volquez for Hamilton trade either...

wally - yes, the Brewers would be much more likely to be able to swing that trade, especially in the offseason if they have lost Sheets and Sabathia.

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