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Monday, July 21, 2008


I'd like to see Marson now, not in Sept. If he can't cut it behind the plate, he can always be sent back. Other teams don't hesitate to add catchers during the course of the season. Mr. Baker in Fla. did not appear to be a huge liability this weekend.

"Other teams don't hesitate to add catchers during the course of the season."

Only if they get hurt. Otherwise, teams usually stay the course behind the plate. Heck, if Sal Fasano and Rod Barajas didn't get hurt, Coste would still be in the minors.

Well, I have no problem sending Ruiz to the DL if that makes a difference.

Hi Guys, a little help here, I am a lifer for the Eagles and Phils, but more a football geek than a seamhead. what does it mean when I see 3 averages in a row (324/.440/.437) like above?

In an ideal world I'd want to give him more time in the minors. This isn't an ideal world though. He could be a significant upgrade for us at catcher in a playoff race where every win is crucial. It's worth taking that chance.

(although I recognize that the Olympics will probably complicate this)


What is the general concensus on where we'd stand with catcher if the Marson trade (involving Fuentes and Holliday) had gone down? Would we default back to Jaramillo? As sound as Happ is, he's not 'untouchable,' and certainly Vic shouldn't be thought of that way, either. The only real reservations in players to be given up would be Carrasco and Marson.

Thanks Jason!

What about DL for Coste and an audition for Jaramillo? If Jaramillo does well, option Ruiz.

I think Holliday and Fuentes for a packaged headlined by Carrasco and Marson is fair, although it kills our farm system. If the Rox threw Yorvit Torrealba or better yet Chris Iannetta (both catchers) that would defenitely help the playoff push this season.

Sure, give Jaramillo a shot. His defense is not suspect, and he can't hit much worse.

Something needs to be done to shake up this team. We're also getting older fast, and need to start getting younger.

Or, they could release Taguchi and carry three catchers, making Coste strictly PH until he recharges the batteries. If Jaramillo does ok, decide if they need three catchers and who goes.

A Jaramillo call-up would address two problems:

a). Coste looks fried and beat up
b). Ruiz is going from bad to worse and probably needs to be demoted to figure out how to hit again.

I think the 3 catchers thing, for now, may be the way to go. Get rid of So and like you said, let Coste recharge his batteries (if possible), by only PHing.

From the last thread:

BAP: A few points about your upgrades- I'm not sure why you threw Brian Roberts in there. He's played 2nd Base his entire career, and I'm pretty sure we're set there. He would also probably cost as much in prospects as Holliday. Randy Winn is decent, sure. However, I'd be reluctant to give up anything of value for a guy whose total OPS is only 60 points higher than Werth against RIGHTIES. DeJesus would be a good upgrade over Jenkins as a lefty bat overall, but offers limited power and is basically only a platoon player. Giles? Having a very good year, but again, no power and he's awful against lefites, so you're still looking at a platoon. I'd be fine with upgrading on Jenkins, but I'm not really sure that's worth giving up anything of value.

I bet if you asked Cole what his preference would be concerning a catcher, I bet he wouldn't say that he would trade offense for someone who he is familiar with. I cannot imagine him agreeing with that after the crap offense that has backed him up this season. Coincidentally, or not so much, Ruiz has started all (If not all, the vast majority) of Cole's starts.

I understand the familiarity thing with catchers, but I'm not convinced of that as the primary consideration.

BTW: Wasn't Fasano brought in during the season?

Is still have no idea why Matt Holliday is being bandied about. That trade never was going to happen. Sometimes I like to engage in wild speculation, but when I see this team in the depths of a slump like this, I like to focus on realistic possibilities of improvement. That trade was never going down, and if you read between the lines on the quote by the guy that reported it, it is dead, if it ever was a possibility ("talks are not likely to resume"=It was all a bunch of junk that they may have thrown feelers out on, but nothing was serious, and they have now stopped considering it as a possibility).

I don't know that throwing is the problem with Marson's defense. The problem is 15 errors and 11 passed balls last season and 9 errors and 6 passed balls this season (which is on a pace for roughly 15 and 9 again.)

And, again, we know nothing about his pitch calling and pitch-framing etc, all the little things that make this one of the most important defensive positions on the field. If the Phils scouts say the kid is good enough defensively to play in the bigs right now, I'd take their word for it. But there are red flags.

It kills the farm system, but if you look at it how the Brewers did with CC, then it's an option. If they decide Marson is not going to be on the MLB team this year or next, aren't sold on Happ and Carrasco is a toss-up, then I don't think it's a bad move. Adding Holliday means Burrell walks and you get draft picks, Fuentes leaves, draft picks.

You've still got Donald to make a move with next year when you start to restock the minor leagues, so it's not like crippling the farm is all that bad of a thing. The basis being that they're going to have to overhaul the minors anyway.

My guess is they're thinking along these lines- if Ruiz gets so far gone, Jaramillo is next in line, at least before September. They clearly don't think offense at catcher is a huge issue, or they would have upgraded it by now- it's been long enough. If that's the case, then promote Jaramillo if need be, and leave Marson and Carrasco together. They seem to be on similar timetables for promotion, and that's not a coincidence I would think, allowing our top starting pitching prospect and catcher of the future to develop together.

Agreed Hibachi - this farm system won't be respectable for several years (meaning, the more draft picks, the better). Trading away 2 solid prospects and a pitcher who doesn't project much better than 3/4 isn't the end of the world, especially if the pieces you're getting may eventually lead to more draft picks, as the WORST CASE scenario.

"Is still have no idea why Matt Holliday is being bandied about. That trade never was going to happen."

You don't know that, from what I've read there were somewhat serious talks and O'Dowd and Gillick have a relationship(not in that way). Will it happen? I doubt it, but I don't think it's something to completely dismiss. Especially, after a depressing thread like the last one.

I like either of those options: keeping 3 catchers or bringing up Jaramillo.

-Coste could serve as a RH bat off the bench.

-If Jaramillo hit okay in a short MLB stint, he'd develop some trade value.

The thing is, I don't think they'd bring up Marson without bringing up Carrasco. They've played together for the last 3-4 years. Carrasco would be lost without him.

Jack, you mean that the Lieberthal-era followed by Fasano/Barajas wasn't about offensive output from the catcher position? I'm shocked!

Bed's Beard: Agreed. The Holliday thing has way more legs than any upgrade at catcher that people are so desperately looking for. I find it funny that people are so quick to shoot down a rumor that actually was reported by credible reporters, and instead insist on talking about "realistic" deals that exist only in their minds.

Parker, every indication is that the trade was very seriously discussed, with Fuentes's uncertain status being a big sticking point. I don't think that this is one of those "smoke screens," but I could be wrong. It makes sense.

I don't see how you win anything with 2 pitchers in the line up. Add the subpar 6-7 hitters and you've got an insurmountable problem. It's too easy to work around Howard and/or Burrell a couple of times each game, leaving few innings when we have a decent chance to put up a crooked number.

Curt- most other NL lineups have catchers who are below average offensively. The Phillies rank 11th out of 16 teams in terms of OPS by the Catcher position. The NL average OPS for a catcher is .707 and the Phillies are getting .682. The Mets and the Brewers, two contending teams close in standing with the Phillies, are getting .684 and .669 respectively.

@clout -- Since E's aren't listed as throwing or fielding... it's possible the errors are on the throws... most Errors for Catchers are on throws... since errors on putouts for catchers are extremely rare.
Either way you are right, it is a red flag...

@JW -- I like the Jaramillo idea. If anything it provides the Phillies with a Just in case while the catching flounders. Use Coste of the bench... while he recovers from whatever is frying him (injury or fatigue). you can keep ruiz for Hamels or whoever wants him around. And DFA Taguchi. And you get to show case him a bit... before the deadline. Now you have a MAJOR LEAGUE ready prospect rather than AAA that is no longer the catcher of the future that you may have soured on.

For people who want to upgrade C instead of RF, we are 11th out of 16 in the NL at catcher in OPS, and 15th out of 16 in RF. From our right fielders, we are getting a .691 OPS at a position where .780 is the league average.

FWIW, Matt Holliday has a ROAD OPS of .859 this season. But yeah, he wouldn't be worth the upgrade...

Even with Holliday, our production from CF, 3B, and catcher against right handed pitching would go to shitt. The big dropoff is Rollins. He's the key.

What about Atkins from Colorado, instead of Holliday, maybe we can keep marson?

Jack: I thought Roberts had also played in the OF, but apparently you're right. So, forget him. None of the players I mentioned would be huge improvements, but that's about all the Phillies are, realistically, going to get. As I've said numerous times, I would also call up Marson & Donald, which I think would help this team's offensive deficiencies.

Holliday talk is ridiculous. It has no chance to happen. A guy like Giles or Winn wouldn't be a huge upgrade but both guys are likely are likely to be hand for a relatively modest price. In particular, I would love to see Giles or Winn hit in the 2 hole in this lineup and dropping Victorino down to the 7 spot.

My only concern with Burrell in left and Holliday in right is from a fielding perspective. Any trade would probably include Vic, so then Werth becomes your everyday CF...he'd have to cover a lot of ground to make up for the lack of coverage from these two out there.

Jack - I'm not looking for a slugging catcher, only one who can get on base every once in a while. Our 2 catchers rank 17th and 24th in OBP the NL. No other team comes even close to being that bad. None of the teams we hope to see in the playoffs come even close to having such abysmal production behind the plate.

MG: The problem with guys like Giles and Winn is that we tried already to get a productive part-time veteran outfielder- Geoff Jenkins. You and I both know this team isn't willing to write off a 2-year deal three months into it just for a small upgrade at the position. Giles can't hit lefties at all, so he is a straight replacement for Jenkins. Winn could at least play for Werth and Jenkins as a Switch-Hitter, but the problem is then you have 4 outfielders to play 2 positions, none of whom are consistently above average offensively.

Jack - Agreed that trading for Winn is more complicated since he is signed through next year at pretty decent dollar. Giles is a FA though at the end of the year though and I don't see what the issue would be acquiring him besides the fact that Jenkins would be riding the pine a fair amount.

If anything, this would help the Phils in the longer term because it would make it more unlikely that Jenkins' deal would automatically vest for that 3rd year.

Jack - Agreed that trading for Winn is more complicated since he is signed through next year at pretty decent dollar. Giles is a FA though at the end of the year though and I don't see what the issue would be acquiring him besides the fact that Jenkins would be riding the pine a fair amount.

If anything, this would help the Phils in the longer term because it would make it more unlikely that Jenkins' deal would automatically vest for that 3rd year.

Jack - Agreed that trading for Winn is more complicated since he is signed through next year at pretty decent dollar. Giles is a FA though at the end of the year though and I don't see what the issue would be acquiring him besides the fact that Jenkins would be riding the pine a fair amount.

If anything, this would help the Phils in the longer term because it would make it more unlikely that Jenkins' deal would automatically vest for that 3rd year.

If the Phillies got Winn, I think he would have to be the presumptive starter in RF. Jenkins and Werth could come in at times, but would predominantly be bench players.

There is no way they are making a move for an OF. They spent too much money on Jenkins to relegate him to a PH guy. Unless they could somehow dupe another team into taking Jenkins (and let the Phillies pay most of his salary to play for another team like Barajas and Helms), then there is no way they make that move. They could move Victorino or Werth, but either way they are stuck with Jenkins contract. There will probably be no move for any OF, but particularly not a big name guy.

Thus, C is the only easily replaceable position. This is an easy one folks. The Phillies OF contract situation is prohibitive of a big move, and it is easily recognizable. The fact that Eaton is on the team right now should make that obvious. Only CF has a guy that is movable, but for what position? LF? No, 1B? No. 2B? No. SS? No, 3B? No, not with Feliz's contract. P? Yes, if you believe the FO would do it. I don't, at least not after Blanton. Catcher is the only position that is easily fillable (or at least comparatively easier).

If they move Vic, they could move Werth to CF, but then that would move Jenkins into an everyday situation (assuming the Phillies ownership has sudden amnesia and forgets how much money they are paying Jenkins) . Anybody want that? So you could get a pitcher or a catcher to improve the team. They are done with starting pitching, and I would not want to give up Vic for a reliever, especially if it meant Jenkins would be an everyday RF.

Lets assume they traded Vic for another CF. Who is out there? Why would any team do that? Any guy they gave up for Vic is not likely to be a significant upgrade.

Nothing makes any sense unless they get either a catcher or a relief pitcher.

Jack: And while you're at it, please note that the Phils' thirdbaseman ranks 10th out of 13 NL thirdbasemen with enough PAs to qualify.

What was the reality-based alternative to Feliz again? Wes Helms and Dobbs? I don't know if our phans would tolerate such butchery at 3rd.

Feliz does lead the NL in the ever popular Revised Zone Rating...

Hi I am Clair Betz one of the very silent owners of your phillies. In case you didn't know who we are, let me tell you:

I am 87-years-old and took my seat at the ownership table when my husband, head of Betz Laboratories, died; THere is also the Buck brothers — Jim, 82, Bill, 78, and Whip, 75 — founders of TDH Capital, the Delaware Valley’s first venture-capital interest; and John Middleton, 53, whose cigar company, John Middleton Inc., sold for $2.9 billion last year. We are the owners of the Phillies.

Thank you for coming to the Park and selling out almost every home game between May and July. That was great because it allowed me and Buck Bros to go out and get our new dentures put in. The Bucks wanted new knee caps and hip replacements but we dont have the $ for that yet. We're hoping you sell out that Braves series later this week to pay for a new deck of cards so we can play Pinochle at the old age home.

OUr buddy and good old Monty gave us a new ownershhip budget to play with a few weeks ago when he said that you lousy bums were coming out in record numbers this year. He said it looks like we could draw 3million fans this year. GOOSH thats like a million more than we are used to drawing. We told him to keep the teams payroll consistent with previous years but allow us to save some more $ for ourselves. You know we all need to take vacations and at our very old ages we need to go to Florida alot because this philly weather is for the birds.

Next year's payroll will stay the same because uncle Bud said that MLB's salaries are getting too high. He suggests that we tell our scouts to only look at projectible HS kids that we can low ball and never draft an experienced college pitcher. Hey That Tyler Green ruined it for the drafting of College pitchers. Uncle Bud says that we can raise our tickets during the summer months too because you fools really like to come out to games during the summer...hahaha...uncle bud is so smart his daughter's brewers are really pissing us off though making trades and looking as if they really care up there in Antartica, Wisconsin. Bud is aLmost as smart as our old butt buddy Uncle Billy Giles. Uncle Billy always reminds Mr. Middleton to not step on anyones toes because we are a small market team. He told us to hit Middleton with our walkers and canes if he tries to get us to sign a buyout contract. Middleton actually wants to spend $...whats up with that? on the team but we all have to shut him up real quick when we go down to the Bunker down in CLearwater every few months. You guys probably hope we sell but I'd hate to tell that between me, the Bucks and Middletown we have like 25 grandchildren that will inherit the ownership title.

Good luck Peasants - you will always have that USFL championship the Stars won, the Phantoms AHL championship and next week's Arena Bowl championship to look fondly back at during these past 25 years..

Claire! You old rascal you. It's me, the Whipper. Good to hear from you again, even if you're invisible. I liked your message above but my knee is doing ok now. Hey I remember when I first met you, you were hot at 60. Rememebr we'd sneak behind our spouses back and get out the chains and handcuffs and go to them fancy hotels? Hey they don't call me ol' Whip for nuffin'. Pardon me, Claire, I have my false teeth out now and can't pronounce my T's. We sure had fun back then. I remember when you bought into the partnership junta just so your husband, may the devil rest his soul, could get a free parking space at the Vet for Eagles football games. I knew he was smart back then. We sure did get lucky though in finding a guy like Uncle Billy Giles to make us millons. And his lackey Monty still continues the trend. He's dumb, but a hellofa good liar. Hey don't talk about our offspring inheriting our fortunes becasue I want to torture these peon fans for another 10-20 years. Keep your good health up, Claire, and we can do it together. By the way, you must be getting a little senile or something because Bud Selig's daughter sold her shares and pocketed the cash. Hell, I might even take it with me when I die. Selig's kid must be worth only millions. Peanuts, Claire, peanuts. Hell, I could light Middleton's cigar with that kind of junky dollars.

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