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Sunday, June 29, 2008


Parker: Let's review: Your initial statement about how bad KK has been was idiotic. I produced stats that showed he hasn't been bad at all. In fact the whole rotation, save Myers, has been quite good. I also noted that KK had allowed 5 or more earned runs in a start only 3 times (out of 20 starts), the same number as Hamels. You somehow read that to say that I thought KK was as good as Hamels.

Your move.

Actually that should've read 16 starts, not 20. No one on the team has started 20 games yet.

I like this matchup tonight. Hurley is prone to the longball and Moyers knows they need to win this series and always comes up big in important games.

Last season, clout continuously harped that Romero projected as nothing more than a LOOGY. Unfortunately, he's right. If Myers does get shipped to the bullpen, he'd better shape up to at least take Gordon's job because that's a hole we'll be seeing virtually every night rather than every fifth day. Failing Myers or minor league "found gold", I don't see any other option besides Madson.

Durbin wasn't sharp, but it was a pretty unlucky inning for him. Setup isn't for him. He's much better as the utility bullpen guy.

And what happened to Seanez? The guy has a 2.45 ERA and has somehow moved below Condrey in the depth chart. We've used him for 4 + 2/3 innings in June.

Whelkman: Just to be clear, I think Romero is fine as a backup setup for when Gordon can't go, but he is not my choice to permanently fill that role for two reasons: He's wild and he can't get righties out. Those tendencies will catch up with him if he's placed in that role permanently.

Frankly, although I've had enormous doubts about him in the past, the stats, as Dave X noted, make a good case for Ryan Madson as setup. He'd be my first choice to fill from within.

Whelkman: I agree. Seanez has done a nice job. I feel confident when he comes in. He's not prone to walking guys and even at 39 his arm is still pretty live.
On Myers though I am skeptical. He can't get out of the first inning. Not an attractive trait in a reliever. I'd DL him and bring up Happ. You obviously cant leave him in the rotation. At this point he's radioactive.

Does this game start at 5 here on the East Coast or 6?

Random time...


clout: understood. My argument assumed a quasi-permanent role given Gordon's recent activity, or lack thereof.

donc: I, too, want Happ (or anybody). Given Gordon's likely injury, shipping him to the DL would allow the Phillies to try Happ as a starter and Myers as a reliever simultaneously, assuming, of course, Myers actually lacks injury. If it doesn't work out, it's not like you lost a reliever spot given the status quo.

From the last thread, Jaramillo may be cocky, as I suspect most highly rated prospects are, but the statements davthom cites don't show it. I would start talking about Coste's big ego just to needle davthom, but I don't see the point.

Whelkman: Yeah that works for me too. I also think Myers has a sore arm. At least I hope he does. Otherwise it's in his head and that could be a problem he never comes back from. If they are both hurt then DL both of them. At this point they are of no use anyway. I wouldn't mind seeing another lefty in the pen. The other day someone posted that lack of a second lefty hasn't hurt us yet, and I think that is accurate. But last night the Rangers had 4 left handed bats on the bench. With Romero's control problems we were an eyelash away from that biting us in the butt. BTW that pitch Romero struck out Saltambucca on was wicked. Same for Lidge on Hamilton.

Tray -- A repeat of my response from my last post on the prior thread on the subject:

Brian G -- You misread my prior post above. I said that the Mandel piece was "one example" of Jaramillo's "cocky" attitude. In fact, that was the only quote by Jaramillo I could quickly identify, but there were others. Actually, I was in Ottawa on business in April of 2007 -- managing to catch a Lynx game in the process -- and while there, I read a quote in either the Ottawa Sun or the Ottawa Citizen from Jaramillo, where Jaramillo proudly announced that he was the , "Phillies Catcher of the Future." At that point, Jaramillo had only played only a handful of AAA games the preceding season in 2006 -- I believe without even a base hit -- and I found Jaramillo's comments to be arrogant, under the attendant circumstances. Therefore, it is within that context that I interpreted Jaramillo's quote above to be "cocky" -- when I read it back in March of this year.

I have yet to hear Jarmillo refer to himself in the 3rd person in a commercial. That is more than I can say for some of the "humble" players on the team.

Well, google doesn't turn up that quote, but I did see this:

From the moment he was drafted, Jaramillo was penciled in as the Phillies catcher of the future.

and this:

Considered the Phillies' catcher of the future since the club selected him in the second round of the 2004 draft...

so maybe his confidence wasn't entirely unjustified.

Also, a re-posting of my other recent post on the prior thread, about whether Ruiz even has any "options" left this current season:

MPN -- Regarding the number of "options" that a player has -- and the succinct and informative quotation you provide -- I do think you misread my post on Ruiz, and the matter of whether Ruiz had any options left this season. Certainly I was not saying that Ruiz could only be "optioned" out on three separate occasionsthree time. I was well aware that a player can be "optioned" as many times as a club wishes during the player's three "option years."

My point on Ruiz was whether Ruiz is in his fourth 40-man roster year -- and I believe that this is the case -- meaning, if my interpretation is correct, that Ruiz is "out-of-options" for this 2008 baseball season.

This is the third season that Ruiz has spent time on the Phillies' 25-man active roster, playing regular season games. Obviously, in order for Ruiz to be on the 25-man, he also had to have been on the Phillies' 40-man roster during the 2005, 2006 and 2007 seasons -- as he clearly was. My only question was whether Ruiz had been on the Phillies' 40-man roster in 2004 -- and I thought that he was -- and that was correct, Ruiz would be "out of options" this season in 2008. That was my central point.

Clout: Lets keep in mind what I said, "Kyle Kendrick has been bad at times this year." However, upon looking at his stats and much to my chagrin, Kendrick has been worse than my personal perceptions indicated.

Kendrick (2008): 86.1 IP, 97 H, 52 R, 44 ER, 11 HR, 27 BB, 39 K, 1.44 WHIP, .280 BAA.

Kendrick (2007): 121 IP, 129 H, 53 R, 52 ER, 16 HR, 25 BB, 49 K, 1.27 WHIP, .280 BAA.

So Kendrick has pitched 34.9 fewer innings this season and allowed only 1 less run than all of last season. He has only allowed 8 less ER, 5 less HR, and has walked 2 more batters in 34.9 more innings. His BAA is exactly the same as last season. This tells me that he got extremely lucky last season on his BABIP. It also tells me that batters are hitting him harder and he is either nibbling around the plate or has lost his location.

By way of contrast, these notable pitchers have similar stats to Kyle Kendrick:

Dave Bush: 85.2 IP, 81 H, 50 R, 47 ER, 15 HR, 24 BB, 45 K, 1.23 WHIP, .247 BAA.

Shawn Chacon: 85.2 IP, 88 H, 52 R, 48 ER, 16 HR, 41 BB, 53 K, 1.51 WHIP, .270 BAA.

Phil Dumatrait: 75 IP, 73 H, 41 R, 39 ER, 6 HR, 40 BB, 51 K, 1.50 WHIP, .257 BAA.

Paul Byrd: 84.2 IP, 98 H, 53 R, 49 ER, 20 HR, 10 BB, 31 K, 1.28 WHIP, .291 BAA.

So, basically according to the stats Dave Bush and Shaw Chacon have been better pitchers than Kyle Kendrick. Arguments can be made that Phil Dumatrait and Paul Byrd have been better pitchers. Good arguments can be made that Phil Dumatrait and Paul Byrd have been at least substantially equal to Kyle Kendrick.

BTW: Dave Bush, Shawn Chacon, Phil Dumatrait and Paul Byrd are bad pitchers.

Clout: If that is too much reading for someone with such a reputable attention span, I'll sum it up for you:

Kyle Kendrick has been:
1.) Bad (with exceptions, as in his last start and others)
2.) The beneficiary of excellent run support.
3.) Equal to or lesser than notable "bad" pitchers: Shawn Chacon, Dave Bush, Phil Dumatrait, Paul Byrd.

That is remarkably close to my "Idiotic" statement of: "Kyle Kendrick was good in his last start, but we cannot forget how bad he has been at times this season." ("at times" should now be amended to "most of the season").

Tray -- By going to -- you can see a Q & A session published in the Inquirer on December 2, 2007, where it was flatly stated that, "Jaramillo isn't even considered a top 10 prospect in the Phillies organization any more."


I submit that there is now general consensus that Jaramillo's former days as the Phillies' top catching prospect -- if they ever existed after the team acquired Lou Marson -- are over. If there is a Phillies' "Catcher of the Future" -- it is Marson, certainly not Jaramillo.

And thank you for the "Google-ing" -- clearly the still-only-25-year-old Jaramillo is a guy who believes the now-out-of-date hype about him -- even though he hasn't yet played a big league game.

To quote someone else on the prior thread -- "Jaramillo isn't the answer."

And Parker -- If one listens to the Phillies' TV ticket promotion spot on Phillies' telecasts, it is clear that in referring to "Chris Coste" on the commercial -- Coste was actually quoting descriptions of his being "made to play in Philadelphia" which came from others -- which persons (from reading Coste's book) include Charlie Manuel. Considering that this is Coste's third season with the Phillies -- I don't consider Coste's quote to be unreasonable -- and clearly, neither did the Phillies PR people.

DavThom: Carlos Ruiz was added to the Phillies 40 man roster in November 2004, so perhaps you are correct that the calendar year format for the team's ability to option him to the minors starts then.

MPN -- Thanks for the info on Ruiz -- for some reason, I was unable to find when Ruiz had first been added to the Phillis' 40-man, but it does appear that given Ruiz being on the 40-man in 2004, he would have to be put on waivers, in order to be send to Allentown -- for any length of time. That clearly would not a viable "option" for the Phillies, I know you would agree.

This conversation is idiotic.

But davthom, you referred to an April '07 quote. The "isn't even considered a top 10 prospect in the organization anymore" is from December of that year. So there's not necessarily any inconsistency.

Tray -- Firstly, you were speaking in the present tense. Secondly, Jaramillo's "cocky" statement was made in March of the year 2008 -- not 2007 -- and certainly came after the Inquirer reported in December of 2007 that, ""Jaramillo isn't even considered a top 10 prospect in the Phillies organization any more."

Jack -- When people foolishly say that Ruiz should be sent to Allentown -- if the guy doesn't have any "options" left -- that is anything but an "idiotic" discussion.

Doesn't look like this game is on extra innings. Anyone else have it and find out the same thing?

Looks like Benson is going to need more work
in Pennsyltucky

(in progress) 4IP 4ER 5H 0BB 1K 73 pitches

Benson has given up 4 runs on 5 hits after 4 innings and 73 pitches. 8 of his 12 outs were in the air. Not quit ready for the Phils rotation.

Parker, I'm not sure how you can say that Kendrick has been bad "at times" this season, well, unless you call 6 runs in 3 innings (6/18), 4 runs in 5 innings (6/2), and 5 runs in 5 innings (5/22) "bad."

Oh, and I forgot: 5 runs in 5 innings (4/21), and 4 runs in 5 innings (4/4). I guess using the metric of how many times he's given up more than 5 runs, without looking at how many innings he's pitched while giving up 5 runs or less, might, just a tad, help bolster the argument that your comment was "idiotic?"

Kendrick has done better than both computer and layman predictions were forecasting for him this season. I would not say he has been "bad"

Just read these rumors on

Phillies outfielder So Taguchi is in danger of being released. … The Phillies have interest in reliever Vinny Chulk, who was designated for assignment by the Giants

TK: It isn't on Extra Innings. Looks like MLB Gameday for us.

yep, and here's why

ESPN Sunday Nights
ESPN has an exclusive national broadcast window for all MLB games on Sunday nights. No telecast can be made available for out-of-market distribution during this time. Any games that start after 5:00pm ET on these nights will not be part of MLB EXTRA INNINGS. The only games available during this time will be on ESPN or ESPN2 and your home team’s Regional Sports Network (RSN) or team affiliated Over-The-Air (OTA) station. Please see local listings for games available during these times.

Why the hell is this game starting at 6?

Let's see...
Hurley, in 26 AAA starts accumulated a 5.11 ERA.
The Phils have never seen him.
It's get away day.

I'm guessing a three hit shut-out for Mr. H.
Moyers will get one of the hits.

Does anybody know why the odd starting time today (5:05 local time in Texas)?

DBack just blew a save against the Marlins on a Ramirez HR. Now there's one out with a man on second and Cantu up. I'm expecting a walk-off win.

Not sure why ARI is leaving the same guy in the game (he's made one out, and allowed a HR and a 2B.)

And now a wild pitch that advances the winning run to third.

The game doesn't look blacked out on MLB.TV.

Make that 3 hits (a HR, 2B, 1B) and a wild pitch for that ARI "closer." 3 hits, 2 runs, .1 IP.

Marlins win with 2 runs in the 9th.

Sophist - I wouldn't mind seeing the Phils try to acquire Chulk. Not like they have anybody who is more deserving in the minors and still think the Phils are going to need at least two more semi-reliable relievers down the stretch due to Gordon's questionable status and the likelihood Seanez hits the wall at some point in the 2nd half.

Would love the Phils take this approach the next month:

1. From a positional player perspective, just tinker. If Taguchi continues to show nothing over the next 2 weeks, then the Phils should DFA. Bring up Donald, Snelling, or make a minor deal. Ruiz hasn't done anything but doubt the Phils could bring in anyone via trade that would be a situational upgrade anyway this season.

2. From a pitching perspective, if a guy like Sabathia becomes available the Phils should go all in. The NL is wide open again this year and really a number of teams have a realistic shot at making the World Series.

Cubs aren't nearly as dominant as the national coverage would lead you to believe (they stink on the road, no starter after Zambrano that you really have to worry about and they really only have two really good arms in the pen in Wood/Marmol) and what other team in the NL is that good. Frankly, I still rather not face a team like the DBacks that can throw Webb/Haren at you in a short series along plays very solid defense.

If I were Gillick, I would move Myers to the pen and try to acquire Fuentes (lefty setup who solidifies two roles for the Phils). This would give the Phils potentially the best pen in the NL. More importantly, it enables them not to have to cross their fingers that they have to count on getting anything out of broken-down Gordon either.

In the interim, Phils bring up Happ/Carrasco and others for a few weeks and roll the dice. Hope that one of them is serviceable enough until you can trade for a second-tier starter like Lohse again.

Will trading Fuentes and for a second-tier starter empty the Phils farm system? It will definitely hurt but the Phils basically have an area of opportunity the way I see it this year and next. Really depending upon what happens this offseason, it might only be this year.

If Seanez hit a wall, would anybody notice? It's hard to stink up the joint when pitching five innings a month. Not that I disagree. If Myers is to be assigned to the bullpen we could do without Condrey's longman entirely, so there is room for acquisitions.

My question is this - could the Phils win in the playoffs with a starting rotation that only feature Hamels and a bunch of mediocre starters?

I say yes because of two things - the NL is weak and the Phils aren't going to play any team that doesn't at least have a few serious flaws too and if they upgrade the pen by getting a guy like Fuentes they have the capability to drop the hammer on teams on the 6th inning and beyond in a playoffs series.

Whelkman - Seanez hasn't pitched much this month just for the fact that Cholly has been letting his starters go deep into games.

We bitch about the starting pitching (largely because of Myers) but the Phils pitching has been really solid this month actually. If the offense hadn't taken a complete nosedive the past two weeks, the Phils would still have a pretty comfortable lead in the East.

I only detest Myers. Eaton is indeed horrible but predictably so and thus manageable, even more so if our management understood the ramifications of the ERA by pitch count analysis posted here a few weeks back.

I'm in the camp who's glad we're getting as much out of Moyer and Kendrick as we are. Personally, I don't think a playoff rotation of Hamels-Moyer-Kendrick is so bad. One guy has the skill and the other two don't get intimidated, which is an underrated attribute in pressure situations.

I just find it odd that a guy with an ERA of 2.45 is the last option out of the bullpen, even below AAA filler.

The reason that Seanez hasn't been used is pure and simple - the Phils haven't used their bullpen much this month to begin with because their starters (Hamels and Moyer in particular) are going deep into games.

Here is the bullpen numbers for June so far:

Lidge: 9 G, 10 IP, 0-0, 7 SV, 4 BB, 16 K,
0.90 ERA, 1.07 WHIP

Madson: 10 G, 10 1/3 IP, 0-0, 5 BB, 9 K,
0.87 ERA, 1.26 WHIP

Durbin: 9 G, 10 1/3 IP, 0-0, 2 BB, 10 K,
0.00 ERA, 1.45 WHIP

Romero: 14 G, 11 IP, 1-0, 10 BB, 12 K,
2.45 ERA, 1.27 WHIP

Condrey: 6 G, 9 1/3 IP, 0-1, 1 BB, 4 K,
3.86 ERA, 1.61 WHIP

Gordon: 8 G, 7 IP, 1-2, 7 BB, 8 K,
7.71 ERA, 2.14 WHIP

Seanez: 5 G, 4 2/3 IP, 0-0, 3 BB, 7 K,
1.93 ERA, 1.07 WHIP

The bullpen has been solid again this month and remains the real strength of this team. Lidge has remained an anchor at the back end, Mad Dog has really picked it up, and the rest of the guys continue to perform pretty solidly.

The only problem is that Gordon wasn't used that much and when he has been has gotten up like a Christmas tree.

I hammered the fact that it was crazy for the Phils to think yet again that Gordon would be a reliable option out of the pen. It just took another month than I thought for him to hit the skids.

Gillick takes alot of heat for some of the moves he has made but the signing of Gordon has to be right up there considering the Phils have essentially only gotten about 5 good months out of him so far out of 15 (2 1/2 seasons).

If the Phils are relying upon Gordon going head forward, I think it is a huge mistake. At this point, the Phils are better off putting Myers in the pen where he hopefully can contribute to this team in some meaningful way yet this season and no having to hope that a broken-down Gordon gives the Phils something yet this year.

Whelman - The "B" team of relievers (Condrey, Seanez) just hasn't gotten much use in June. This is actually a really good thing and one of those "silver linings" from a mediocre month. I bet it pays some dividends in August/Sept if the Phils can continue to only have to utilize their pen on a moderate basis as they have so far this season.

Don't think it is because Cholly's confidence has fallen in Seanez as that fact that Durbin continues to pitch well, Mad Dog finally stepped it up and regain Cholly's confidence a bit, and Romero said he needed to be utilized frequently to be effective. Really has nothing to due with the Phils' confidence or lack of confidence in Seanez.

Maybe I am a Gordon basher but just think that signing was a mistake the day it was made and it won't be a bad thing when the Phils get out from that contract this offseason.

Best-case scenario is the Phils send Myers to the pen and pick up a frontline or at least above-average starter (Sabathia, Harden, Bedard, Burnett, etc.).

Myers needs to go to the pen regardless, but I don't think this team goes very far with a playoff rotation of Hamels, Moyer, Kendrick and... Happ?

Jack - Maybe not but in a short series anything can happen and this bullpen has the capability of being deeper/stronger than last year's team by a long shot.

Plus, what team is really that good in the NL? Been the case for past 2 years and remains that way this season. Door is open. Hell, Rockies played well for basically a month and half and made the World Series. Phils could easily do the same if the cards line up right.

"My question is this - could the Phils win in the playoffs with a starting rotation that only feature Hamels and a bunch of mediocre starters?"

The thing is, MG, I'm not sure the pitching is what would kill them in a short series so much as the fact these guys can't hit upper-tier pitching. We've seen teams make it all the way through the post-season without a dominant pitching staff. You have to be able to compensate if you're pitching's not up to snuff, and this team has too many regulars with poor hitting approaches to make much of a dent against anyone featuring both quality stuff and command at any given time.

The reason they start the games later in Texas on Sundays is because they don't have a retractable roof and the heat is ungodly for everyone if they were to start earlier in the afternoon. They've always played Sunday night games there.

I will go out a limb and say this - this Phils' team is better than the Rockies' team that made the World Series last year. Rockies just had a bullpen was strong/deep, a solid offense, stellar defense and just enough starting pitching to make the Series.

Phils potentially have all of those except they probably aren't the same caliber of defense club.

Maybe I have been drinking something that I am one of the "optimists" on this board but Interleague play has showed me this - the NL sucks yet again this year and it is just as wide open as the past 2 years. If anything, the NL East is much weaker and provides a much better opportunity for the Phils to make the playoffs again.

RSB - Agreed on that and that is why I think this team would have a tougher time in the playoffs against a team like DBacks than the Cubs.

What is crazy this year is the Phils have a losing record against RHP starters and have faired pretty well against LHP starters. I am a lose to explain this unless I went back and looked at who they faced.

Flipper: there are many reasons that I don't consider Kendrick's (5 ER or more stat) impressive. You listed one, but there are plenty of others.

1.) It does accurately represent how well a pitcher pitches. (he could have benefited from unearned runs to start. He also could have been lucky, barely escaping disaster, for instance by giving up a 400 foot fly ball with the bases loaded).
2.) It doesn't consider any other stat that indicates how well a pitcher pitches. (Hits allowed, walks, HR's, BAA).


I'm actually confused by your last post. It seems to bolster my side of the argument, rather than make my comment seem "idiotic," as the suspiciously absent Clout stated.

MG: At the time of Gordon's signing, phans were exuberant, but those with Yankees knowledge warned us not to get too excited and to wait until September to pass judgment.

Duped by the Yankees, yet again.

OK, Parker and your pet fish (who is incapable of original thought), let's review your latest pearl of wisdom: Kendrick has been bad "most of the season."

KK has had 17 starts. He is 7-3, a winning pct. of .700. But let's pretend that wins don't count in baseball. Let's look at your comparison, which seems to say "KK's numbers aren't as good as they were last year, therefore he's a bad pitcher. Also, they are equal to or lesser than notable "bad" pitchers: Shawn Chacon, Dave Bush, Phil Dumatrait, Paul Byrd."

There are a couple problems here. You never define "bad" directly but seem to be saying that if someone is having a worse year than last year he is "bad." Or if someone is having a year similar to the pitchers you named, he is "bad." That is apprently how you define bad.

Problem #1 is that by your first definition Hamels is "bad" because his ERA+ is worse and he's not close to last year's winning pct.

Problem #2 is your bizarre list of pitchers. Dumatrait is in his first full major league season. He's not much of a prospect and I think he will be a bad pitcher. Lilly is an above league-average pitcher, a former All-Star, who had a superb season last year and is having a bad year this year. I guess that makes him "bad" in your eyes. Byrd has been an above league-average pitcher in his career, also a former All-Star, who is probably washed up at age 37. Bush is a league-average pitcher who's just a typical end of rotation guy. Are all back of rotation guys bad? Chacon is a starter/reliever who's been mostly bad in his 8 year career. So we have this grab bag of totally dissimilar pitchers, some bad, some good, some medium, that is some kind of bizarre benchmark to you.

Anyway, the lack or logic and reality in your pronouncements is nothing new and I shouldn't waste my time with you, but this latest one was so weird it was hard to resist.

KK is what he is, a guy with average stuff and pretty cool demeanor who'll likely have a league-average career with a couple of high-win seasons along the way. In other words, a quality #3 or #4 starter. Feel free to have whatever fantasies you wish about that.

Why all this vitriol about Kendrick? To use a saying I hate "he is what he is." His value right now to the Phils is a primarily an economic one - he is capable of being an average starter who stays healthy who is being paid peanuts. In two or three years when Kendrick becomes arbitration eligible, his value is going to become much more suspect.

MG: Very astute point about Kendrick's value. Considering the amount of money he is making, you could argue his value is the highest of any pitcher on our roster other than Hamels and Lidge.

League-average starters probably go for somewhere in the 8-12 million range these days. Getting one for 400,000 dollars is a hell of a bargain. Especially when you are paying Brett Myers about 9 million dollars and Adam Eaton 8 million.

Clout: There is no fantasy involved here. I never said Kendrick needed to be Cy Young, but I would not want to have to rely on him as a post-season starter (Which is how this entire conversation began).

Gossip Girl? WTF? Looks like Gamecast for me...

In other news, why the hatred towards Kendrick? I thought for all intents and purposes, he's given us exactly what we've needed and expected this year. I'm more than pleased with his performance thus far.

Why is this game not on TV?

Moyer in this park scares me. Hopefully that will look like a stupid comment.

Value or no value, here is what I can determine from his starts:

Good (Some of these are questionable as to their quality)
4/16: 7 IP, 4 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 1 BB, 5 K (Houston: 18th in MLB in runs)
4/26: 7 IP, 7 H, 4 R, 3 ER, 0 BB, 2 K (PIT: 6th in MLB in runs)
5/2: 6 IP, 8 H, 3 R, 3 ER, 0BB, 6 K (SF: 27th in MLB in runs)
5/27: 7.1 IP, 7 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 1 BB, 5 K (COL: 24th in MLB in runs)
6/13: 7 IP, 8 H, 2 R, 1 ER, 1 BB, 1 K (STL: 11th in MLB in runs)
6/25: 8 IP, 4 H, 0 R, 0 ER, 1 BB, 4 K (OAK: 20th in MLB in runs)

4/4: 5 IP, 8 H, 2 BB, 4 R, 4 ER, (Cincy: 21 in MLB in runs)
4/9: 2.1 IP, 4 H, 6 BB, 7 R, 1 ER, 0 K (NYM: 13 in MLB in runs)
4/21: 5 IP, 8 H, 5 R, 5 ER, 2 BB, 2 K (COL: 24th in MLB in runs)
5/7: 6 IP, 10 H, 1 BB, 3 R, 3 ER, 2 K (ARI: 16th in MLB in runs)
5/13: 6 IP, 6 H, 4 BB, 3 R, 3 ER, 2 K (ATL: 14th in MLB in runs)
5/22: 5 IP, 8 H, 5 R, 5 ER, 1 BB, 2 K (Hou: 18th in MLB in runs)
6/2: 5.1 IP, 5 H, 4 R, 4 ER, 0 K (CIN: 21 in MLB in runs)
6/7: 5.1 IP, 4 H, 2 R, 2 ER, 5 BB, 3 K (ATL 14th)
6/18: 3.0 IP, 6 H, 6 R, 6 ER, 2 BB, 4 K (BOS 3rd in MLB in runs)

6 of the 9 bad starts listed here would qualify as a "good" start under the Clout theorem of allowing less than 5 ER. However, clearly that is not a good indicator of how someone has pitched.

The actual count is 9 bad starts, 6 good starts (of which 2 are highly suspect).

Perhaps clout and parker should get a room.

I like Burrell hitting 4 and Howard 5. I hope that continues when the pitchers start hitting again.

I'm back. Yes - 6:05 start time. It bothered me that I wasn't near a computer to correct it all weekend.

On what to do with Myers, my vote is Happ. Sink or swim was Clout's words and I feel the same way. That's why you have a farm system, and Happ has cooked long enough in the oven. And he's pitching well enough. No to Carrasco, but fall back on him if Happ doesn't pan out. I think you stick Myers in the pen for the remainder of the season. Don't move Durbin. With Gordon ailing, moving Durbin creates another hole in the pen, because it's no given that Myers would be any good there. Plus, Durbin has finally found his calling there. Don't move him.

What will the Phillies do? Probably give Myers one more chance at least.

Sorry Parker, but what's your problem with 6 IP/3 ER? These are 'bad starts'?

Thus, if one made the statement "Kyle Kendrick was good in his last start, but we should not forget how bad he has been at certain times this season," they would be correct. It probably qualifies as an understatement to say "At times" as it has really been a "majority of time."

i wonder what kyle kendrick's trade value is. he's got a good record and he's fairly consistent. i wonder what people outside philly think of him. of course, we know what Kelly Johnson of ATL thinks, but i wonder if we can find anybody who can be duped into taking him for more than he's worth.

Iceman: 10 and 11 on base in 6 innings and 3 ER is lucky, not good. We are measuring the quality of the starts, not what actually happened in the game, which is entirely different.

If Myers goes to the 'pen (which would give us a VERY servicable bullpen when our starting pitching becomes more tired in the second half, don't you think that they have to try and move him next year?

I mean, won't Myers be pissed that the team used him like a yo-yo, and he wasted a year in his prime? Meaning that he fancied himself a starter, and sacrificed to go to the bullpen. Then he succeeded in the bullpen and they put him in the rotation where he failed.

So in your opinion, the ends don't justify the means. Got it. This would explain why Eaton and Moyer also get sh*t tons of complaints on this site, despite their ability to get out of jams.

6IP/3R is a QS, no matter how much you want to complain about it.

I was bolstering your argument, Parker, by pointing out that Clout's stat of # of games of 5 or more runs is pretty useless if you don't consider the number of innings he's pitched in his outings. In addition to the times he's given up 5 or more runs, I'd say, as an example, four runs in 5 IP would fit the category of "bad."

For the record, no vitriol there. No hatred of Kendrick. I agree that he is what he is, a mediocre pitcher. Just saying that calling the statement you made - that he has been bad "at times" this year - "idiotic" seems pretty off the wall.

Is there anyone here that would be comfortable with Kendrick as the 2nd/3rd starter in the rotation come playoff time? Thought not.

Eaton gets complaints because he is horrible with decent stuff and has the mental composure of a hypochondriac in a leper colony.

I'm not sure why Moyer gets complaints (to be honest, I don't see that many). Moyer gets by with much less talent, and is usually more successful (plus he is 45 years old).

Look, the Phillies have *won* the majority of the time when Kendrick pitches. That's the bottom line. He's not a problem.

I can't believe this lineup was only two weeks ago considered the best in Phillies history. They might be the worst since the Larry Bowa era.

Nothing like getting home just in time to see Pedro take his swing.

Just once this year I'd like to see our staff hold someone scoreless in the 1st.

Eaton has done adequately this year, so the bitching about him on here is highly without merit. He's frustrating at times, but he is what he is (sorry for using it, but it's true).

Complaining about Kendrick, Eaton, etc. when we have someone like Myers with a 6 ERA is like complaining about having dandruff when you also have herpes.

Game is over. down 2-0 against a guy we've never seen before and its get-a way day!

Agree that it's time to see what happens if you give Happ another shot in the rotation.

If Myers moves to the BP, I'd rather see him used in Gordon's role over the next month on the off chance he performs well and increases his perceived value as a closer by the trade deadline.

Be careful Dude, calling the game over may lead to Sophist calling you unreasonable.

Parker: This will come as a shock to you but many successful pitchers give up a lot of baserunners. The bottom line is how many runs they allow and do they put their team in a position to win.

Parker - enough with the Kendrick is horrible argument. We all know he'll never be great but Jeez just look at his personal W-L record and the record of the team in his starts. Sorry man but your wrong cause it's very impressive. Just like Moyer he doesn't dazzle with great stuff but he gives the team some confidence by keeping them out of huge innings. I would bet that he might be in the top 10 NL pitchers in wins since his call up last year.

Dude -- your positivity is infectious.

Kyel Kendrick is never going to be spectacular, but he'll probably remain a decent back end of the rotation type of guy for years to come, along the lines of a Jeff Suppan.

Iceman - Shhh its the reverse jinx.

I'm looking for shutout number 6 of this season for the greatest offense in this team's history as we heard quite frequently after the two 20 run outbursts.

Kinsler and Young - please never come to the NL because you are officially added to the long list of Phillie Killers.

This seemed like the kind of young team that Jamie often stifles...wrong.

This team sucks right now. I am absoultely furious that the Mets are a mere 3 games back from us despite their debacle of a season. Win a goddamn series already.

I've given up on Benson, but others haven't, so here ya go- 4 ip, 5 h, 4 r today in yet another loss. Give up!

THe Dude: It helps when the team averages 6.37 Runs per game in your starts (Kendrick).

Harder when it is lower: 5.06 RPG (Hamels)

Not good at all when it is 4.37 RPG (Myers)

Really screwy when it is 3.81 RPG (Eaton)

Howard's poor play at first makes me wonder who some of our other really bad 1st basemen have been over the years.

GM Carson: Benson gave up under 5 ER, that is a good start, right??

So, clout, I guess you believe that WHIP is an irrelevant stat? (Kendrick is 37th in the league - well into the lower half).

I'm a bit surprised given how much you use stats to measure the quality of a player.

Ok, philosophy & math majors, here's a brain teaser for you:

What's the opposite of a player who "is what he is?" Is it a player who isn't what he is? Or is it a player who is what he isn't? Please support your answers with real-life examples.

you guys have to give Benson a break. he's rehabbing for gods sake. have you ever seen Schilling or any decent pitcher in rehab starts? they're simply trying to locate their pitches and making sure everything is working. let's give Benson until late July at least to rehab; anything he gives is great. and until then, they should be looking internally to solve the pitching woes of Myers and health issues that Gordon's facing.

Parker - he's had 36 career starts little over a year's worth of starts. His career record is 17-7 and ERA of 4.17. I would suggest that he's been pretty friggin good. He stays out of big innings and has been able to get himself out of jams. Everyone talks about his poor velocity but I think I've seen him get up to 93 a few times this year while I have not seen Myers touch 93 all year.

BAP, I've always thought it would be a player who isn't what he isn't.

BAP -- a player who isn't what he isn't could technically be the same as someone who is what he is. I would lean that way, actually.

the opposite of a player who is what he is would be roger clemens or barry bonds. speaking of bonds, can we sign him to pinch hit?

If this series gives us anything, hopefully it is Burrell staying in the 4-hole above Howard.

Its not very good when your slowest baserunner (Burrell) has been the only guy in the lineup over the last month who consistently will get on base 2times a game.

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EST. 2005

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