Beerleaguer for breakfest: Readers explain Myers' dud

Brett Myers walked off the field to a chorus of boos after giving up eight runs – six earned – over 4 1-3 innings in a 8-6 loss to the Braves. Readers generally agree that Myers – who allowed three home runs to make it 15 on the season – has been undone by poor command.

"Myers problem tonight is what his problem usually is: Location. If he can locate his fastball and curve within the zone consistently, he can win big throwing 80% curveballs. If he can't put them in the proper spots, then it doesn't matter what % of anything he throws. He's gonna suck." – clout

"Myers' velocity has vacillated back and forth. Tonight it wasn't there but he was throwing his fastball @ 92-93 MPH in his last start.  Tonight he wasn't able to locate and got burnt. I still think the Braves' advance scouts saw something though because the Braves were swinging at a ton of first pitches in their ABs early tonight. ... Even if Myers is only throwing 89-90 MPH on his fastball, he can still be a very effective pitcher but needs to use the offspeed stuff more and earlier in the count (and basically junk the cutter since there isn't enough velocity difference between it right now and his fastball).” -- MG

"Maybe it's past the point where the Phils can even look at him as an effective starter. How long do you wait? When Howard slumps, he's one guy out of nine on the field. You can live with it. When a starting pitcher slumps, he's affecting the team in a much more drastic way, every fifth day. And there's no place to put him in the bullpen. Starting to think Seth Everett might have a point." – RSB

Beerleaguer: The Phillies need to get to the bottom of the velocity issue with Myers, because if he's hurt, now's the time to do something about it. A 15-day trip to the DL would be an excellent option. It's not like they'd miss his starts right now, and they have a replacement throwing well in Happ. A tryout would also allow the Phils to see what they have in Happ, who's 25 and doesn't need any more time in AAA. Myers' strikeout totals - which are still strong - are a little deceiving. Even the game at San Fran was not particularly sharp and the reported improvement in velocity couldn't have been more overblown. He's barely 90, and he looks sloppy, too. Sharp contrast in craft between Glavine, who hits his spots, and Myers, who isn't establishing his fastball, and gets burned by too many careless mistakes.

Taguchi slumping: A look around the league finds teams starting to cut bait with underperforming players, even players with substantial contracts. It happened recently with outfielder Jason Michaels in Cleveland. On a different team, one with better depth, So Taguchi, who grounded into a killer DP last night, might have been out of a job as well. I thought Taguchi would be a nice fit – and still may be – but his last hit came April 25 and he’s batting 178/.229/.222. Taguchi, who signed for $1M this winter, will be 39 in July. One has to wonder if he’s lost just too many steps to contribute.

Comments

[clout]

Can someone explain to me again why any intelligent person would ever write out a lineup in which Feliz bats ahead of Coste?

[clout]

IN today's DN, Myers says he's puzzled by his problems because they were hitting "quality pitches." To me, a belt-high fastball that catches the fat part of the plate, regardless of velocity, is not a quality pitch. It was nice to see that Charlie also mentioned location as Myers' problem. Apparently Myers himself hasn't noticed.

[JKanef]

Kazmir signs an extension. Numbers/age very similar to cole..dare I say we have a framework?

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3396451

[clout]

On the prior thread there were a number of turning points mentioned that cost the Phillies the game: Howard's misplay at first, Feliz' failure to hit with runners on base, Myers' HR balls etc.

Here's one I didn't see: Madson allowing 2 inherited runners to score. Those runs were the difference in an 8-6 game.

[NEPhilliesPhan]

We mentioned it during the game chat last night...we just didn't go into detail about it...somewhere right around when the Phillies made it 8-4 it was commented how costly those 2 runs by Madson were.

Thoughts on the game:

1. Feliz is continuing to kill the Phillies in critical situations.

2. Howard is about 80% out of his slump...his swing looked real good last night even if he only went 1-4 w/ HR.

3. Myers has NO movement on his fastball and his cutter is completely ineffective.

4. Why does Uncle Charlie continue to start Vic in Right and Werth in Center?...both are playing out of position and its hurting them defensively.

[sifl]

clout: Following your comment about the batting order, I'd like to ask why a catcher who's consistently hit as well as Coste is relegated to 1-2 starts per week. I have to imagine that this is what we get for having an organization that shuns statistics. Ruiz "looks" like an everyday catcher, while Coste doesn't. Then Coste goes and plays well from the backup spot until he gets an extra start, and if he doesn't get more than one hit, he's relegated to the bench again.

As for inherited runners, Clout, that's a tough one. He gave up one hit, which is pretty much the expected outcome for an inning of work (yes, I know there was one out when he came in). It was a big moment and he didn't come through, but there's a reason those runs are charged to Myers. Just like with hitters, pitchers' hits are going to be distributed pretty randomly, with no relation to "clutch" situations, and a pitcher like Madson is going to have more hits to distribute than a pitcher like Lidge.

[Hugh Mulcahy]

Can someone explain to me again why any intelligent person would ever write out a lineup in which Feliz bats ahead of Coste?

Posted by: clout | Thursday, May 15, 2008 at 10:01 AM

Only thing I can guess is that he fears having the pitcher lead off repeatedly.

Feliz is a total dog but I'm at a loss ot understand the comments singling him out for blame for last night's loss. Feliz put good wood on a ball in the 5th that could have really closed the gap. Blanco made a good play in left or we'd probably see happy comments this morning about Pete's semi-monthly clutch hit.

[Willard Preacher]

Taguchi is really going to be 39??? I always thought that speed was what he brought to the table off the bench (and that he'd be PtB's personal late inning pinch runner). I guess I didn't realize that he was that old. Not that it means he can't run (Kenny Lofton appeared to still have some wheels last year), but I'm dubious to the value he can bring in any sort of sustained fashion.

I'd rather have someone who can hit the ball out of the infield and pickup up those pitcher spots AB's late in a game after Dobbs has already been burnt.

[bay_area_phan]

Funny you should bring up the idea of cutting bait on Taguchi, because I was lying awake last night (literally) thinking the same thing. Seemed like a decent signing at the time, but it hasn't worked out. My move would be to waive Taguchi and bring up Jeremy Slayden, who has hit at every level.

Although starting pitching is certainly at the top of this team's problems, I wouldn't give a free pass to the offense. The only way this team seems to score runs is with the homerun ball -- and when that's your whole offense, you're going to have a whole lot of games where you get shut down completely. Instead of signing duds like Jenkins & Feliz, the Phillies should have signed a few guys who can hit .285 or .290 & draw some walks. Slayden looks like he might meet this description.

[Morty]

Clout:

You'd prefer a lineup in which Wes Helms bats ahead of Coste?

Speaking of Coste, did anyone else see his hilarious quote about Myers?
"It's almost a little bit of the Adam Eaton syndrome, where any time the ball was anywhere near the hitting zone, they killed it,"

[phargo]

Yikes, Coste- two insults with one quote!

[Steve Jeltz]

I wouldn't mind sending Myers to the DL for 15 days and giving Happ a couple starts.

If Happ pitches decently, I'd consider rotating rotation guys on the DL for awhile. For example, when Myers comes off give Eaton a little two week vacation. Maybe that will provide a little competition and maybe the Phils will catch lightning in a bottle with someone (probably not).

[Jimmie J.]

There's gotta be someone out there better than Taguchi. Someone with some speed, can play defense and hit for a respectable average....waitaminnit, I just described Kenny Lofton!

I hope Charlie doesn't fall too much in love with Bruntlett playing outfield unless in a bit of a pinch. I don't think he's going to win any gold gloves and he has an infielder's arm.

[JZ]

*Loved* Coste's quote comparing Myers and Eaton. Just love Coste in general, really. Every time he's on base, it matters.

[Mike]

Would Golson be any worse than Taguchi at this point? 44 K's in 149 ABs so far in Reading is brutal but he would bring more speed and some pop.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

I don't see them bringing Lofton back. I wouldn't mind it, but from what I've heard, he's a terrible clubhouse guy.

[clout]

Morty: You and the other Feliz backers keep putting up this bogus argument as if the choices this past off-season were either Helms or Feliz. They weren't and I refuse to believe you're that dumb.

Feliz should bat 8th when he plays and he should only play against LHP. And he should NEVER bat ahead of Coste. Anyone with two eyes and a brain can see that. Dobbs should start vs. RHP.

[clout]

Mike: Golson would be about 75 or 80 on the list of potential replacements for Taguchi.

[Steve Jeltz]

I like Lofton too, but I don't think his ego would let him come back as a 5th outfielder. I think if he comes back at all it will be when some team's centerfielder goes down and he has a chance to play (almost) everyday.

[sifl]

clout: Amen on Feliz, Dobbs, and Coste. Except I'd make an exception when Moyer and Kendrick pitch--Dobbs just doesn't inspire enough confidence at the hot corner.

[clout]

sifl: Moyer I understand, but I'd like to see stats on how many ground balls are hit to 3B while KK is pitching. I bet the average is less than 3 per game, and unless you assume Dobbs is incapable of catching anything hit to him, that isn't remotely enough to offset Feliz lack of offense.

[bay_area_phan]

Lofton would be an upgrade but, since we're talking about a 5th outfielder position that isn't exactly at the epicenter of the team's problems, I would rather see the Phillies take the opportunity to look at one of their prospects. I'd go with Slayden (Javon Moran would be my second choice).

The fact that Slayden is slow & can't play defense is actually a major PLUS in my book, since it would limit Cholly's options when it comes to replacing Burrell in the 6th inning of close games.

[MG]

Phils should give Taguchi more time but at this point I imagine Gillick will consider cutting bait with him if the performance doesn't pick up by early June.

Only issue is the Phils don't have someone who can readily replace Taguchi and this means that Cholly might start using Bruntlett as a defensive replacement for Burrell (one of the most foolish ideas that Cholly has considered implementing during his tenure as the Phils' manager).

[AWH the RBP]

Someone else posted a lineup with Coste hitting 2nd when he plays, which I agreed with at the time and still do.

vs LHP

Rollins
Coste/Vic
Utley
Burrell
Howard
Werth
Vic/Chooch
Senor Out
Pitcher

vs RHP

Rollins
Coste/Vic
Utley
Howard
Burrell
Dobbs
Jenkins
Vic/Chooch
Pitcher

[GM-Carson]

I liked the Taguchi signing too, but it's becoming obvious that he's really not needed and worthless to the team. Burrell, Vic, Werth, and Jenkins are all outfielders while Dobbs and Bruntlett have shown the ability to log some innings out there too, so no need for SO anymore.

I'm still pissed off at Myers.

[Dave X]

In their careers, Feliz has actually been considerably better than Ruiz has been versus LHP. Bruntlett beats them both.

[AWH the RBP]

A couple of threads ago I compared Brett Myers to Adam Eaton.

Now, the team's best catcher is doing it.

Think about that for a second.

Myers certainly has the talent to turn things around.

A problem that will arise if he doesn't is the confidence that his team has playing behind him will suffer. Based on Coste's comments, one wonders if it already hasn't.

In how much trouble are the Phillies and Myers?

The success of the entire season may hing on the answer.

[NEPhilliesPhan]

It is very worrisome, especially the inconsistency in his velocity and his drop off from last year. He thinks he's making good pitches and he's out of his mind. I don't get to watch every game on TV as I live in Vermont now but I catch all the national broadcasts and he's hasn't had any control in any of the starts I've seen so far this year. Eaton is actually pitching better than him right now and that is very scary.

Coste made an accurate comment that I think may be open to interpretation or it may have just been a Freudian slip...I doubt he meant to throw Myers under the bus like that.

The problem with Dobbs playing 3B regularly is his defense is atrocious while Feliz is a top defender who probably couldn't hit for average in a Connie Mack league.

On Taguchi, I liked the signing at the time but he's just not performing in the field or at the plate...if there were any other options in the minors I think he would have been cut by now. Even Snelling would be a better option if he wasn't on the DL.

[Morty]

Clout: I recall you advocating for a Helms/ Dobbs platoon instead of Feliz, that such a platoon would out-perform Feliz. Obviously, that would not have been the case so far. Please feel free to correct the record about your support of a Helms/ Dobbs platoon.

[mike cunningham]

Feliz is batting .280/.308/.748 in the 7th hole. He was batting .146/.226/.518 in the 6th hole.

I don't think he's moving out of that spot for a while.

[Willard Preacher]

I don't think that letting Taguchi go necessitates replacing him with another OF option. Listening to Gillick last night, the FO feels that they have PLENTY of OF options, even without Taguchi (Burrell, Werth, Vic, Jenkins, Dobbs). Pat G even sounded as if he's excited about getting Bruntlett out there, too.

I don't think you need to fill that spot positionally. You need to think of that spot as off the bench offense (or pinch runner, or whatever they dictate they need). However it is viewed, it is a late inning, spot-type of a need. That being said, I think that there are plenty of options, outfield or not, who can fit the bill better than Taguchi. I still can't believe he's 39. Jesus, I'm getting old.

[Morty]

Willard:

I like you thinking about that bench spot, especially if they are serious about using Brunlett in the outfield. Perhaps that is a test to see if they can get by replacing Taguchi with a good bat, no field type player.

[J. Weitzel]

Willard: Good post. Something I had planned on posting on after lunch, the idea they have enough versatile players to cover the OF, plus they don't necessarily need to replace Burrell every night.

[mike cunningham]

regarding taguchi. I'm not going to discuss keeping him or dropping him. But the real mistake was Manuels.

You were bringing in Jenkins, because you really needed a homer. Taguchi's splits versus LH aren't much better than Jenkins. A double play was the WORST case scenario. The best case scenario for Tag was what a base hit? We would have been better off with Jenkins striking out then Tag hitting into the double play.

[Billy Mac]

According to fangraphs pitch type stats, Brett Myers is throwing 50 % fastballs, 24 % sliders, 16 % curves, 8 % change, and 1.4 % cutters this season. What is notable (if you trust the fangraph stats) is that he is throwing less curves and more sliders than in previous seasons. Over the prior 3 seasons, he was always over 20 % curves, in 2007 -- 26.6 %.

http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=962&position=P

[mike cunningham]

Last night regarding Myers.... the amazing thing, on the outs he recorded, he looked like the MILLION dollar arm. 6Ks. I was at the game so I dont' get great location. But there was one pitch he painted on the inside corner for a called 3rd strike that was just a beauty. He had 2 DP balls after walking batters and should have had a third.

But it wasn't like he was recording those LONG LOUD outs that you get from Eaton sometimes.

I'm not sure that hitting 89-90 versus 92-93 is indicative of injury. I think it's really just a location problem. And that could be mechanical. But i think it's more in his head than anything.

[bay_area_phan]

Morty: Why is it "obvious" that a Helms-Dobbs platoon would not have outperformed Feliz up to this point? Helms/Dobbs have a combined average of .256, and a combined OBP of .292. Feliz's numbers are .233 and .282. Dobbs/Helms also have 4 more RBIs, and only one less homer than Feliz -- despite 16 fewer PAs.

Besides, when you have a platoon, the manager also has the option of discarding the platoon & just going with the hot hand. If Helms were still with the Phillies & hitting .200 right now (as he is with the Marlins), Dobbs might well be the full-time third baseman by now -- which he may well be in the near future, anyhow.

[Morty]

If it's his best pitch, shouldn't Myers be throwing a lot more curves? At least switch up the percentages with his slider, a mediocre pitch at best. That and stop throwing his fastball down the middle is my expert analysis.

[Morty]

BAP:

Because Helms is less than useless with both the bat and the glove. Dobbs isn't that hot against lefties, and doesn't inspire much confidence with the glove at 3rd. I certainly would not make Dobbs the full time 3rd baseman. If you want to argue that he should be getting more time at 3rd, especially against righties, by all means.

[CJ]

bap: Damn you and your "statistics". We all know that Pedro Feliz is superior to a Helms/Dobbs platoon because we have two eyes. Numbers mean nothing. NOTHING I tell you!

[clout]

Morty: I advocated for an upgrade at 3B in the offseason. I don't consider Feliz playing everyday as an upgrade (although a Dobbs/Feliz platoon would be an upgrade.)

Regarding a comparison of their current stats, which is a bit bogus since Helms is a bench guy with only 65 ABs, the combined OPS of Dobbs/Helms would be .684. Feliz is at .688.

Feliz, as I've said repeatedly, is the worst offensive thirdbaseman in the NL. His alleged Gold Glove defense does not offset his harm on offense. He is a net negative for the team.

[Morty]

And you have to compare Helms Dobbs combined playing time at 3rd, with Feliz/ Dobbs combined playing time at 3rd as well in your comparison.

[CJ]

Morty: Helms' career OPS is 10 points higher than Feliz's. So if Helms is less than nothing with the bat... what is Feliz?

[RSB]

Didn't Taguchi lead the league in pinch-hits last year, or PH average? I agree that he hasn't shown much so far - okay, nothing at all - but a month and a half seems kind of hasty to cut bait on him. I think the Phillies will be rewarded if they stick with him - I see him being a very valuable contributor late in the season, the type of guy contending teams are scrambling to add to their roster come September. Giving him some of the starts vs. LHP wouldn't hurt, either. Manuel has used him very sporadically outside of one week where he got some starts in the leadoff spot.

Regarding Coste hitting eighth: there is a school of thought in baseball which supposes that the no. 8 hitter is a more crucial spot in the lineup than no. 7, at least in the NL - because of his ability to get on base in front of the pitcher, in order to either be in a position to make the pitcher's spot useful by having him bunt, or simply to turn the lineup over. The other school of thought, of course, is that the hitter lower in the order will get fewer plate appearances in a game - which is why the pitcher hits ninth in the first place. Either viewpoint makes a certain degree of sense, however, and I think Manuel's angle is somewhat defensible here.

[clout]

Morty: Huh? I just got done saying that a Dobbs/Feliz platoon would be an upgrade over last year. You and the other Feliz aplogists keep inventing this position that I've never held: That Helms is better than Feliz. I wanted to dump Helms as much as anyone. He's washed up. But I wanted an UPGRADE at 3B. An actual real everyday player, even a medicore one. Having the worst thirdbaseman in the league isn't an upgrade to me.

[clout]

AWH: I like those lineups.

[Morty]

CJ, you must have missed the 2nd half of that sentence where I continued about Helms "...and with the glove."

[Steve Jeltz]

RSB: I see what you're saying about the 7/8 spots but I don't think there's any school of thought that a player with the HIGHEST BATTING AVERAGE ON THE TEAM (outside of the .500 BA of C. Durbin) should be hitting 8th.

[bay_area_phan]

Morty: Dobbs' career average against lefties is .289 -- .20 pts higher than his average against right-handers. He also hit lefties well in the minors. There is literally no evidence to suggest that he can't hit left-handers. Cholly simply operates on the default assumption that, if a guy is left-handed, he must stink against left-handers. Not all of them do.

That said, I am not yet ready to say that Dobbs should be the full-time third baseman. However, Cholly should do a strict platoon, which would mean that Dobbs gets the majority of the starts. If Feliz is still hitting under .240 by the end of May, then I think Cholly needs to seriously entertain the idea of giving Dobbs at least some of the starts against left-handers.

At his career norms, Feliz would be barely tolerable as a platoon player. But he has been on a downward path for the last 2 years, & seems to be sinking even lower this year. That is NOT tolerable from a starting player -- even a part-time starter.

[NEPhilliesPhan]

Both Helms and Dobbs are brutal in the field (feel free to look up the fielding statistics) while Feliz is great defensively. That counts for something in the argument.

One problem I see with Myers (feel free to contradict me) is that he trys for the "big money" pitch. He focuses way too much on trying to strike a guy out instead of getting weak contact. He has a fairly good defense behind him and he needs to pitch more to bad contact instead of always trying to be a strikeout guy. I always felt that that was one of the biggest things he loved about being a closer...striking guys out and having the spotlight/adrenaline rush of doing it...He loves to be the center of attention and he knows that Ks are "sexy".

Also he's getting alot more fly ball out than he has in the past because he's leaving the ball up more. His GB/FB ratio is down significantly from his career norms (1.17 in 08 vs. 1.46 for career). He's trying to be a power pitcher when he simply doesn't have the stuff for it anymore.