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Tuesday, April 29, 2008

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@brio - "Geeze! What's with all the love for Lieberthal? I always considered Clay Dalrymple as the best catcher n team history. "

I assume that was tongue in cheek right?

Help is on the way for the Iron Pigs: Rumor is that
newly signed player, 31-year-old lefty Les Walrond is on the way. Walrond, who reached the major leagues with the Royals (2003) and Cubs (2006), was 1-1 with a 6.55 ERA in seven relief appearances for the Cubs' Triple-A affiliate in Iowa before being released recently.

thats a change of subject with Lieberthal.
Actually he was or is much better than Dalrymple. Not too many good catchers in Philly history. Maybe Andy Seminick would be better in the top category of catching. Stan Lopata had one good year.

The real reason you have to look at the big picture and not one game :

http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/SDN/SDN200707220.shtml

If I were the Phils, there is no way I'd send Carrasco, Outman, Carpenter etc. to Lehigh Valley. Let those guys learn to win together in Reading (like they did in Clearwater last year) and then move them en masse to Allentown next year.

No one mentions Bob Boone?

I see Tray's man Durbin has another bad outing.

No help is on the way for the Iron Pigs according to Noworyta:
http://www.mcall.com/news/local/all-2141.6383664apr29,0,813721.story

Jim J: Bob Boone was a very solid catcher for 10 years with the Phillies, but his offense wasn't even close to Lieby's. Again, Leiby leads the franchise in most career totals for a catcher.

The poster who mentioned Dalrymple was obviously joking. He was fine defender who couldn't hit a lick.

You can make a better case for Seminick, whose skills were close to Lieby's, but he was the starting catcher here for only 6 years.

The closest rival would be Dutch Daulton, who was a better all-round hitter, but here again, he was the everyday catcher for only 7 of the 10 years he played here and so trails Lieby in career totals.

Phillies catchers by OPS+, minimum 500 games:
Jack Clements (1884-97), 118 OPS+
Stan Lopata (1948-58), 117
Darren Daulton (1983-97), 114
Spud Davis (1928-39), 111
Andy Seminick (1943-57), 110
Tim McCarver (1970-72/75-80), 109
Butch Henline (1921-26), 103
Mike Lieberthal (1994-06), 102
Bob Boone (1972-81), 90
Clay Dalrymple (1960-68), 84

the top 5 by unadjusted OPS are Davis, Lopata, Henline, Lieberthal, and Daulton.

Daulton's numbers kind of suprise me now that I look at them. You could make a case for him being the catcher on the immaginary "All-Phillies Team"

ae: Some notes about that misleading list:

Lopata had more than 300 ABs in only 3 years, was the main backup for most of his career due to defensive limitations. He had 500 ABs only once.

Same story with McCarver, who was a backup in all but 1 year here.

Henline, who only played regular for 3 years, had a career OPS+ of 97.

Spud Davis was the everyday catcher in only 3 of those years.

I like how I merely say that kdon wasn't nuts for predicting that J.D. Durbin would be as good as Chad Durbin this year, when, after all, he wasn't much worse than Chad last year, and clout now has J.D. pegged as "Tray's man." I mean, (1) all I said was that the prediction wasn't off the wall, I didn't make the prediction, (2), I obviously don't agree with the prediction, and (3), even if I did, saying that a pitcher will be as good as some other bad pitcher doesn't make him your "man." But that's clout for you. Why did Lopata play so few games for us in all but two seasons? It looks like he could hit.

clout, there's nothing "misleading" about the list. I said it was the top Phillies catchers by OPS+, and that's what it is. clearly there's more to the question of who was the "best" Phillies catcher than just OPS+; defense and relative playing time would certainly two of those things.

besides, your comments could just as easily be described as misleading. true, Lopata only had 500 AB once. the same can be said of Daulton, however. and Davis was the Phillies' primary catcher for 4 years (30-33), not 3.

Do we change JD Durbin's nickname to "The Real Squeal"?

I hear you with all of the Lieberthal talk. I just was never a fan.

So J.D. "The Real Deal" Durbin is looking to pitch his way back to double A. I am just so glad he will not be back in Philly anytime soon! Hopefully Clay Condrey can join him.

http://myteamrivals.typepad.com/phightin_phils_phorum

http://myteamrivals.typepad.com/turnpike_series

The Iron Pigs inaugural season has justified their name. There's always Reading.

I always considered Boone the Phillies all-time catcher - but he played when defense was a catcher's job and offense was a plus, unless you're name was Gary Carter. McCarver shouldn't even be in the conversation - he would never have kept his job if not for Steve Carlton. If I were picking on the basis of offensive prowess, I'd go with Daulton. Still, very nice of the Phillies to let Lieberthal retire with them and give hima ceremony. He certainly sacrificed his body for the team during his time in Philly.

Tray: Is Chad Durbin a bad pitcher? Compared to your man J.D.?

ae: Do you think Stan Lopata and Spud Davis had better Phillie careers than Mike Leiberthal?

IRONPIGS just released Valentino Pascucci and brought up Rich Thompson from Reading after the Phillies signed him a few days ago.

Does Mike Lieberthal have to be the best catcher in team history to get a little acknowledgment from the team? Or even in the top 5?

I am only in highschool, so most of what I remember about Lieby was when he was in the "black hole" with Bell.

That being said, I think it's fine that we wanted to retire as a Phillie. He still follows the team closely, so I think he deserves it. Plus, he was the classic Philly player: hardworking and sacificed his body for the team.

Wayne: Thompson is a Reading native, too bad he couldn't stay longer. Apparently they decided the Pigs needed a lefty bat more than Pascucci's righty bat.

clout, there's no way I could know that. I never saw Spud Davis play. he could be either Johnny Bench or Dick Dietz defensively for all I know.

strictly on an offensive value basis, I would take Davis 1930-33 over any four-year stretch of Lieberthal's career (putting aside the question of defense). same with Lopata's peak.

but obviously there's a difference between a part-time player and a full-time player. never said there wasn't; that's something you managed to infer entirely on your own.

I can imagine a guy name Spud had a lot of a better personality than Lieberthal did!

Lieby, Daulton, Seminick & Boone are really the only 4 players who even belong in the conversation for the Phillies' all-time best catcher. I'd say that, in his peak years, Daulton was the best. However, that peak was relatively short. From an overall career perspective, Lieberthal was the best.

BAP: I agree with you 100%.

Bo Diaz was pretty good for a few years after Boone. Lieberthal certainly wins on longevity but some adjustment needs to be made on the offensive statistics, doesn't it?

what, no Jack Clements? I'd put Clements over Seminick at the very least.

Boone will always get the nod in All-Time consideration becaue of the teams he played with in contrast to Lieberthal. May not seem entirely fair, but that's how it will play out over time. Lieberthal was offensively far superior to Boone, Boone was a notch or two better defensively.

ae: I saw him play some OF for the Philadelphia Keystones in '84.

RSB: By that logic, Ernie Banks gets left off the all-time Cubs roster.

hey, you have to respect a left-handed catcher.

I thought that the Ironpigs needed another right handed bat and Thompson has some speed so that should help also.

It's a pretty sad list of "all time great" catchers.

No doubt Clements had the highest BA in the history of Phillies catchers---I think around .390 in or around 1894. Baseball moved their pitching mound back to the current distance from 45 feet in 1893 which led to 4 of the most offensively charged years in baseball history. Only then, now and around 1930 have ERAS been so high. The Phillies had 4 players in their OF that hit .400 or over including Tuck Turner at .420. The other three are HOFamers. Naturally, the Phils didn't come in 1st due to their horrendous pitching. Sounds a bit familiar doesn't it?

Anyway, You can't really include Clements because his defense probably wouldn't be even close to Bob Boone's. I think he is the best in their history. Just shows how pathetic their history has been.

what's really sad is that the Phillies all-time catchers list is arguably better than the all-time list for first base, second base, and shortstop.

I know, sacrilege! but Howard and Utley are way way back on the games-played lists (only 15th and 9th respectively), behind a lot of garbage. and at short, Rollins still has only a 98 career OPS+, and Bowa was tremendously overrated.

at least at catcher there's several guys who were both in Philly for a while and pretty good players...IMO Lieberthal/Daulton/Boone looks better than Luderus/Hurst/Kruk, Taylor/Morandini/Rojas, or Rollins/Bowa/Hamner.

With the Triple A Lehigh Valley Iron Pigs suffering through loss after loss, Gillick plucked infielder Oscar Robles off waivers from the visiting Padres. Oscar can play second, short, and third and has played parts of the past 3 seasons with the Dodgers and Padres batting .260 over 163 games. He has less power than a dead 9-volt, but in the minors he's drawn far more walks than strikeouts (277/144). This may just be a regular old minor league move, but something about Jimmy Rollins still being DL'd and the timing of this transaction scare me.

From my blog yesterday-
Triple A: Lehigh Valley Iron Pigs- this team sucks. Seriously, I tallied up their record and it's 3 wins to 239 losses. Usually AAA serves as an insurance policy for the parent club, but if the Lil' Piggies are insurance for the Phils, they better hire a lawyer and get ready for a false advertisement lawsuit. 31 year old journeyman Mike Cervenak is the only batter with an average .280 or better. JD Durbin now has a 9.61 era through 5 starts and Travis Blackley is trying to top his ineffectiveness with a 6.64 era. Steve Kline, Matt Childers, Ron Chiavacci, Gary Knotts, and Brian Mazone are the only pitchers with eras below 4.00. Like I said before, this team sucks. The only way this team could get worse is if Gillick went and picked up the original no-talent ass-clown Danny Sandoval, No-Hit Nunez, and Paul Abbott to round out this roster of losers.

although the Phils do have a lot of historical depth in the outfield...

LF: Delahanty, Ennis, Magee, Hamilton, Luzinski, Burrell (O'Doul for peak)
CF: Ashburn, Williams, Maddox, Thomas, Gonzalez (Dykstra for peak)
RF: Abreu, Callison, Klein, Cravath, Thompson, Titus

ae- how in the hell can you exclude the almighty Rob Ducey? C'mon bro, show some Canadian love.

The Lehigh Valley Iron pigs are off to one of the worst records ever in minor league history click here to order your very own Bad News Boars t-shirt or get a Bad News Boars Teddy Bear or Trucker's Cap.

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