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Monday, March 31, 2008

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Re: Myers, I appreciate that. And it was fine last year, when we had Lieber, Garcia, and Eaton. (at least the apparitions of those pitchers).

But where do you find another starter???

Depends on which starter they will be replacing I suppose. Will it be the Brett Myers who's capable of winning 15 games, or the guy who pitched today and the beginning of last season? Chad Durbin could give them 5 innings, 3 runs ...

not exactly awe inspiring.

Personally, I'm all for a Myers to the bullpen scenario. Assuming you can get a suitable replacement.

Despite today's hiccup. over 30 starts... I think you would get less outings like this from Brett than you would C. Durbin. That's just a guess.

JW - I recommend that you start a new feature on Beerleaguer for this season:

"Clout Count" or "Clout Clock"

It would be an incredibly handy way to track bullpen losses. It is like the Doomsday Clock only the higher the number gets, the less the Phils have a chance of making the playoffs.

I am sure Clout would not mind you taking this idea and giving a bit more notoriety to it.

"I think you would get less outings like this from Brett than you would C. Durbin."

Agree. However, how much is it worth not having to overcome five-run innings in the ninth?

Today's lesson, for me, is how scary it is with only six pitchers in this pen, and maybe one (Romero) you can reliably trust. What is Madson's problem? It escapes me.

You might have to get Clout to firm up the rolls a bit to clarify the case of when the bullpen is directly attributable to a lose.

Don't think you would have a problem today though with any criteria.

JW - Madson will be fine over the long haul this season. Maybe the Phils should try to pull an elaborate ruse on him and tell him it is really May 1st.

I want a Charlie Count for games that Charlie arguably blows with questionable decisions. I think people have forgotten how much better we could have been last year with a more tactically astute manager.

Tray - Agreed that Cholly does some head-scratching things. Still, this loss is all on the pitching. If you score 6 runs in an NL game, you should win.

We all give Romero so much respect for his work out there, often referring to him as the only reliable one of the bunch. Well, why not have him close? I mean, he was so lights-out in the eighth, why did we even take him out? If the guy has any versatility at all, I'd much rather see him out there in the ninth than Gordon and possibly Lidge, depending on the kind of shape he's in.

Personally, I would've left Romero in for the 9th, but he was facing two strong right-handed hitters in Milledge and Zimmerman, so you can understand putting in a right-handed pitcher. Unfortunately, that right-handed pitcher was Flash Gordon, who is clearly not an effective pitcher right now. If my option was between Romero and an obviously ineffective Gordon, I would've left Romero in there.

Stat of the day:

Phils were 15-9 last year when they scored 6 runs and a 74-11 when they scored 6 or more runs.

Basically this better be one of the handful of times this year when the Phils lose when they score this much.

Pulling Romero from this game was not the problem. Man talk about second-guessing.

Brett Myers:

Grounds Outs: 1
Fly Outs: 12

Flat out just not going to get it done at CBP.

Anyone else have problems with mlb.tv today?

There is no way Brett Myers can go back to the bullpen now. Who would replace those innings and honestly how much better would they be than Brett Myers? Looking at the play by play it looks like he was great in the 1st, 3rd and 4th, but a little off in the 2nd and more so in the 5th. A little erratic during his first real start in almost a year, but he's still a solid #2 starter. I also think Madson will be fine, just a hiccup. Charlie Tuna's managerial style once again confuses me. Then again I've been drinking. I say keep scouting the wire for a partner for Helms and trade a prospect like cardenas for some rp. I hope Carrasco makes it to the pen to help before Brett Myers. Groom him in the pen and take it easy on the arm. Better than trading for Mike Stanton.

MLB Rumors also has us trading Carrasco and Cardenas for Joe Blanton in July...any thoughts on that?

Jimbo: My only thought is that it's too early to predict trades that will happen in July.

Romero deserves the set up spot when Lidge returns and he can close the deal NOW! This guy has the make up and the stuff to shut the door! Flash has turned into Jose Mesa for cripes sake! Durbin did good too..Steve Kline cut loose by SF..why haven't we signed him?

What was Romero's pitch count? 12 pitches?
Phills have off tomorrow-no need to replace
Romero with a pitcher w/ a 86 mph fastball & a torn labrum who can't throw his best pitch(curve). I know I'm overeacting but last year taught me Charlie is over his head.

The Phillies obviously need pitching up but I think they need bullpen help more than starting pitching right now. If they trade their both of their top two prospects I hope the Phillies would get someone else other than Blanton, who being a flyball pitcher probably wouldn't be the best fit for CBP. Blanton would probably still be an upgrade to any other pitcher we have in the 3-5 spots, but I don't think it would allow Myers to go back to the bullpen.

I would count this as a game that the relief pitchers lost. Aside from the obvious Gordon implosion, only two of the five managed to not give up runs. (Remember that Condrey gave up one of Gordon's runs - which is why you never want to put the ball in Hands of Clay when there are (somebody else's) runners on base.) Yup. Chalk it up. One clout special: bullpen loss on a platter. Hold the effin pickle.

typhoon - I would cry to lose Carrasco for Joe Blanton. It would be like losing Gio for that shoulder injury with a number.

For all those of you clamoring for JC to be set-up, keep in mind that if Chollie uses him there, then, most of the time, there is no lefty for use in the 5th, 6th or 7th. Because Pat didn't get one. Again. Despite there being some. And despite knowing that he needed one. Because Pat, evidently, is... well, I don't know what to say here, because I don't want to insult all the morons out there.

A team can survive without a LOOGY.
A team cannot survive without a closer.

Look at what Romero has done since joining the Phillies and you should make him the interim closer.

I agree Andy, I only mentioned it because somebody else brought it up and it was a trade prediction on the MLB trade rumors website. I think there is a better change of Carrasco pitching for the Phillies this season than that Blanton trade happening.

Since you asked, my criteria last season for a loss directly attributable to the bulpen was fairly simple: The bullpen gave up what eventually proved to be the winning run. Some posters disagreed with that rule noting that if a starter gives up 6 runs in 3 IP and the bullpen yields 1 run in the final 6 IP and the team loses by 1, it's a bullpen loss. And, admittedly that's a bit unfair. But that happened about 3 times out of the 30 or so bullpen losses last season.

I'm not against trying JC as closer because these are desperate times, but you should realize that if you are doing that you are betting against history. Romero had 36 great IP for the Phillies in 2007 but for the rest of his career he's not done well vs. RHP. Chickens often come home to roost.

I know it's too early Weitzel, but do people think Gillic would be dumb enough to even try that move? That kinda scares me.

This one is definitely on Gordon. Even if Condrey did give up one inherited run, Gordon completely erased the margin of the comeback that the Phils offense had just accomplished. In a "Flash," the Phils are down by 4 again.

Seeing Gordon march out and pull that garbage has to be frustrating for the position players. They know how bad Gordon is. They can see with their own eyes that every time Gordon puts a fastball over the plate, it gets hit a mile. They know that he stinks. When Luis Ayala, Matt Chico, and the entire Nats bullpen is more effective than your supposed closer, it has to be frustrating.

I would take any of the right handed relievers in the Nats bullpen over Gordon. Colome, Ayala, Rauch, Boxcar Joe, anyone is better than Gordon. He is done, finished. How much would it hurt this team to just let him go and replace him with any of the good young minor league pitchers? I know this is not an option based on the dollars and cents, but seriously, from a purely baseball strategy perspective, it is a no brainer. It is a shame that Gordon cannot just be cut or relegated to a $3 million garbage time pitcher. What a joke, too bad it is not funny. Maybe he will just retire and save the team and Steven King some embarrassment for naming a book after him.

Myers has to get deeper into games.

Oh, and Victorino looked completely useless offensively today. Obviously I am much less concerned about him in one game, but it was a pretty pathetic performance at the plate. I sure hope that Bourne was not the right guy for CF, and he now plays for the Astros.

Quick Hitters:
Feliz was a nightmare as well, but did make some good defensive plays.

Rollins boot in Meyers' last innning was costly, although he is untouchable based on about 8 years worth of quality service, including an impressive offensive day.

It's true, Parker. The Nats have a solid bullpen. I don't know what Bowden's stockpiling all these relievers for. They say he asks for superprospects for the likes of a Chad Cordero, but that just seems unrealistic.

And yeah, MG, I wasn't saying that Charlie cost us this game, just that, in the (short-lived) euphoria of the playoffs, people forgot how many times Charlie pinch-ran for Burrell with Bourn or brought Nunez in as a defensive substitution in the 7th inning or used Pete LaForest as a pinch-hitter for the sole reason that the guy happened to be left-handed... fortunately these guys aren't on our team anymore, but I'm sure we'll see similar hijinks with Taguchi or Bruntlett.

being at the game, i had an angled view, did anyone watching on tv think the home plate ump was a bit erratic with the size/shape of the strike zone?

on madson: i feel he will be fine, but probably should have had more innings in the spring given how much he missed last season and will eventually level out to be solidly mediocre, which, sadly, is a step up from most of what we have.

on romero: he was great today, but i dont think he is anything more then a quality setup man by looking at his career numbers and splits.

on condrey: i dont think he is incredible but i have more faith in him right now then most of the bullpen, especially gordon.

on carrasco: i feel JA Happ will be a callup long before carrasco as he is older, pitched at higher levels and is more polished. Also, i think the real deal durbin will be called up before him and we have benson rehabbing.

lastly, i feel myers will be perfectly fine, yes he is gonna have rough patches, but ultimately i feel he will level and be a solid #1/2

Parker - my point about Condrey was not that he was somehow responsible. Gordon, clearly, eliminated every reasonable chance the Phils had to win this game. I was simply saying that 3 out of 5 relief pitchers failed to do their jobs. Madsen gave up runs, Gordon gave up runs and Condrey gave up a run (not his). Only Durbin and Romero pitched clean innings.

As to using JC as a closer...{sigh}...Pat Gillick, Ruben Amaro et al did this to us. They can equivocate all they want about the dearth of FA starting pitchers out there this past off season; but there were some fine middle relievers out there, who would be much better than what we ended up with. There were lefties, too, who could have been the second lefty in the bullpen. They knew what they needed to do. They stated, clearly, what they needed to do. They just kinda forgot to do it.

This may be Gordon's loss, but it is equally attributable to Pat Gillick's inability to do his job effectively in the off-season. {I can already hear someone blaming it on injuries instead of the GM, too.}

how long after lidge is back till gordon goes on the DL, i say 3 games.

There's the 15 day and the 60 day...I wonder if we can't create for a few guys (to be named later) the 730 day disabled list...

i sense a rod barajas like injury coming on for gordon

730 day DL. Awesome.

DONE and done!

The strikezone wasn't erratic... it was fairly consistent... but a little wide. I thought Chico was getting a way with some early on. I think it was just the angle of Chico's pitches. There were pitches that LoDuca was catching at RH ankles that SOMEhow crossed the plate somewhere...

Stopped noticing when the relievers came in... because I was mostly trying to hold down my lunch.

Why do you think Madson will be ok this season. I didn't particularly care for him last season. There was no reason to take out JC, he looked great and there was no reason he cou;dn't pitch 2 innings. Theres no game tomorrow so he could be ready for Wed night. And if Gordon got thru the ninth and it went into extra innings, how many pitchers are left?

mike, thanks for the perspective, and i share your sentiment about trying to keep lunch down after a point

The Phillies continue to get burned by the big inning which involves the opposition pitcher getting either a hit or walk. That hasnt changed.

I am usually Capt. Skeptic here but looks like my usual role got usurped today. Everyone needs to chill out a bit. Granted the bullpen sucked today but let's not go ape sh!t. At least Lidge is supposedly coming back on Sat.

To me, xfactor is right on the money about Myers needing to go more than 5 innings. They need Myers to be a horse this year and can't afford for him to have mental lapses in the 6th inning.

I do need to see a few more outings from Gordon but that

according to myers, he lost his adrenaline in the 1st inning and just skated by till the hard hit balls found holes in the 5th

Pitching Romero for 2 innings is the most retarded idea that has crept up here. Besides that fact that Romero did his job already (and that the Phils need to not abuse his arm by trotting him out there for multiple innings per apperance), it is second-guessing of the worst kind.

I have ZERO faith in Gordon over the course of the season. Still, Cholly had already used Madson, Romero, and Durbin and anything who has more confidence in Condrey (kdon aside) or Lahey than Gordon is a fool. Cholly went with Gordon and Gordon laid a complete egg although he didn't get any breaks either. End of story.

Just watching the San Diego/Houston game, and announcers are gushing about Bourn's speed and range out in center. He just ran down a long fly for a final out with the bases juiced.

Part of me thinks Bourn would've been fine in center this year — maybe Vic could've been moved for relief (or back-end starting) pitching? And Lidge is grabbed through some other avenue?

On Myers:

- Thought that it was just as critical on anybody on this staff that Myers get out of the gate with a few good starts. Today wasn't one of them.

Maybe the adrenaline of opening day got to him but he is a veteran now. That should be able to deal with that kind of stuff. Have to see how he does in a few more starts but maybe Myers' mental demeanor really ensures that he is best utilized out of the pen. Have to wait and see.

My bet is that Hamels is as cool as a cucumber and shutdowns this vaunted Nats lineup (which is better than last year but still full of holes).

Phills should have chased Chico in the 4th.
Phills were up 2-0 w/ 2 men on & no outs.
Of course Feliz/Werth strike out & ruiz pop up. Can anyone tell me why manuel kept Jenkings in vs King? He is atrocious vs lefties.
I liked the Bourn/Lidge deal but Bourne has been impressive tonight. 1/2 w/ a walk & 2 steals + a spectacular catch. T. Iguchi
is 3/4 for the Pads. I have no idea why the Mets didn't sign him.

Phillies suck, you should all just give up now.

@MG:
I totally agree with you about the (gulp) necessity to insert Gordon into that situation in the 9th if Romero was to be taken out.

But that situation brings up a major issue that should have been addressed immediately following the news that Lidge would start the season on the DL:
How can a team compete with only 6 bullpen pitchers (especially when at least 2 of them should only be used in mop-up situations)?? Because that's what this current bullpen is diminished to - Gordon, Lahey, or Condrey in the 9th in a tie game.
IF Cholly is committed to pitching JC for only 1 inning, then you absolutely NEED to pitch Gordon there. Whether you think he's done or not, you definitely can't put Condrey or Lahey into that situation. If only we would have adjusted our roster to deal with Lidge's time on the DL....

"In a game that featured everything hardened skeptics could ask for"

You have to hand it to the Phils, they are consistent in April.

MG:Romero has a rubber arm + this is the 1rst game. He insists he is more effective w/ lots of use. He blames his failure &(wildness)on lack of innings in Boston. The Phills are off tomorrow + will have Lidge next week. Considering the current state of the bullpen, I see no harm in pitching Romero a 2nd inning after a 1-2-3 8th inning & only 12 pitches.
Did anyone hear if Myers commented on his velocity after the game? Comcast had most of his fastball's in the high 80's. Not sure if it was accurate. I realize it's early in the season + cold but Myers is typically in the 91-94 range. As Jason said-Gordon was simply throwing BP.

you stupid phils phans. Do you really think your trash-ass squad has any chance at winning this division? Oh man this is funny.

Mets
Nationals
Braves
Marlins
Phils

See you at CBP 4/20. We're comin for ya.

Would you trash talk after your team suffered the worst collapse in major league history? I wouldn't, but that's just me.

Guess who just pitched a very nice 1-2-3 inning for the 'stros?

Yes, a man who would make a great middle reliever for this team: Gas Can Geary.

"Did anyone hear if Myers commented on his velocity after the game? Comcast had most of his fastball's in the high 80's. Not sure if it was accurate."


I watched the first few innings, and Myers didn't have much today. Had no life on his fastball, and not much bite to his curveball. Maybe Ole' Florida Brett, wasn't ready for the cool weather. He didn't have good stuff at all today. Was not surprised, when I heard the Nats got to him in the 5th. He was lights out in ST and had great stuff down there, so hopefully its just a 1 day thing.

And, Gordon is shot. Was shot most of last year too. He'll be hurt soon, and he will spend most of the year on DL, I would guess.

Lidge better be good, or this team has no shot of winning the East.

Mets fans are a riot. Already talking ridiculous trash even though they beat a complete donkey today in Hendrickson and had their ace going. Big deal.

Kells he kept jenkins in to make the nats use their last lefty. Once king was gone they had none left. it actually ended up working out because they tied the game in that inning against king. I don't know if charlie strategically planned it to work out that way, but it kept king from being an option later against Utley/Howard. Unfortunately, it didn't matter because of Gordo's crap.

Did I miss anything? Work got in the way like a Flash Gordon fat pitch this afternoon. Seriously, this is the outing that makes one look in the mirror and wonder "retirement."

We don't really know what Lidge brings at all, do we?

WTF? Now if the Phils had been up a run, it would have been fine to bring in Gordon? Ugh.

Blame begins and ends here with Gordon. End of story.

MG: Blame does not begin and end here with Gordon.

Blame begins and ends with Gillick and Co.

They failed to seriously improve the pitching staff -- especially the bullpen -- during the off-season. I think the Lidge deal will be a good one (though I agree with Parker that we really don't know what Lidge can give us), but that was the only move they made.

And Tim Lahey? Clay Condrey? Two waiver-wire reject mop-up guys and no 12th pitcher on the roster.

Blame is Gillick and Co.'s.

It's time we call down the thunder on them.

BTW, Gordon's ERA is 135.00.


I'll be more than happy to be wrong, but those that think Ryan Madson is going to magically figure it out and starting pitching well in relief are a bit silly. I'm not trying to insult you, but go check out Madson's career trend since that good rookie season he's had...it's been mostly downhill. Yes, he did well in spots last season, but he has a knack for giving up "big runs".

On Gordon- he's done. I have ZERO confidence in him...actually make that (-)100% confidence in him.

This pitching staff is in trouble, but most knowledgable fans already knew that for quite some time.

kells- i didnt here anything he said about his velocity but the screen at the park was flashing 88-91 for his fastball with an 87 and a 92 mixed in occaisanally

My two cents:

Not to defend Gillick/Amaro/Arbuckle but if the Front Office isn't writing the checks then no one is coming to rescue this pitching staff - Free Agents or via trade. And for this Front Office, yesterday was a WIN. The score? 44,553. Plus food, beer and parking. Our Phils? 0-1, Monty and the gang, believe me, to them we are 1-0.

Note: I was in the High and Inside Pub behind home plate before the game yesterday. Two of the 4 HD TVs in there had broken screens. Are you kidding me? Opening day and you can't roll in two new fully functioning Vizios for $500?

Note2: I realize the big screen in the scoreboard is a POS Philips but can they fix the defective pixels? Again, Opening Day and we can't split for the service call on the big screen before the season starts?

Note3: What was with the National Anthem? It sounded like they were torturing cats.

Note4: Further proof that this isn't a "Baseball" ownership. Flash barfs up a five spot in the 9th and the Phillies are playing some 70's dance song like they are celebrating this crap. Now I know this stuff is probably automatic but Jesus H. Christ on a pogo stick can't our "Baseball Man" (yeah, sure you are) Bill Giles or someone cancel the singing and dancing when you just dropped Opening Day by giving up five runs from a 900 year old pitcher with a torn labrum you were forced to use because you won't upgrade the bullpen?

I hate the ownership of this team.

I don't post much so I'm putting this in this thread too:

My two cents:

Not to defend Gillick/Amaro/buckle but if the Front Office isn't writing the checks then no one is coming to rescue this pitching staff - Free Agents or via trade. And for this Front Office yesterday was a WIN. The score? 44,553. Plus food, beer and parking. Our Phils? 0-1, Monty and the gang, believe me, to them we are 1-0.

Note: I was in the High and Inside Pub behind home plate before the game yesterday. Two of the 4 HD TVs in there had broken screens. Are you kidding me? Opening day and you can't roll in two new fully functioning Vizios for $500?

Note2: I realize the big screen in the scoreboard is a POS Philips but can they fix the defective pixels? Again, Opening Day and we can't split for the service call on the big screen before the season starts?

Note3: What was with the National Anthem? It sounded like they were torturing cats.

Note4: Further proof that this isn't a "Baseball" ownership. Flash barfs up a five spot in the 9th and the Phillies are playing some 70's dance song like they are celebrating this crap. Now I know this stuff is probably automatic but Jesus H. Christ on a pogo stick can't our "Baseball Man" (yeah, sure you are) Bill Giles or someone cancel the singing and dancing when you just dropped Opening Day by giving up five runs from a 900 year old pitcher with a torn labrum you were forced to use because you won't upgrade the bullpen?

I hate this Ownership.

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