Lidge re-injures knee during Saturday batting practice

Phillies closer Brad Lidge caught his spike on the mound during morning workouts, “feeling a pull” in his surgically repaired knee.

Lidge, who underwent October surgery on his right knee and was acquired by the Phils soon after, limped off the field after talking with team trainers, according to the AP report. The right-hander says he’s hoping he only pulled scar tissue loose. The team will find out more on the extent of the injury tomorrow.

Beerleaguer: Not ready to push the panic button just yet, however, it could certainly move Lidge’s opening-day readiness from “questionable” to “doubtful.” If the injury turns out to be serious, then the Phils could be forced to bring in outside help, which includes free agent Kyle Lohse, who would allow Brett Myers to return to the bullpen, with more than a month to prepare.

The truth of the matter is, the Phils should already have someone waiting in the wings at set-up in case something like this happens, and they don't. But let's not get ahead of ourselves.

Comments

[membridge]

question - even if lidge isnt seriously hurt here, does anyone think this will affect his ability to pitch effectively? do we have any info re. last year and if the knee caused a dip in velocity due to not being able to push off etc?

[michael]

hopefully they don't have hem examined by the same guy that saw freddy garcia...

[MG]

Unless the Phils have to put Lidge on the DL for the entire year, this is absolutely no reason why the Phils should move Myers back to the bullpen at this point. Myers spent the entire offseason conditioning to be a starter. Plus, the Phils have just as many questions/issues in their starting rotation than they do with their bullpen.

Hell, the Phils don't even have 5 legitimate starters right now.

[strange]

Predictable, really. Brett Myers may get his wish after all.

[bruceg]

there goes the season...

[Bedrosian's Beard]

Settle down boys. Let's hear what the extent of the injuries is, before we all jump off the local bridge.

[Ben Keeler]

In a twisted way I hope he is out for awhile so Myers can be the closer and they resign Lohse.

[mike h.]

Seriously... Breathe...

If you were exasperated by Donovan McNabb below 100% on his knee this fall, I can see why you'd say Here we to again.

[Crime]

If they handle this correctly (sign Lohse, move Myers to closer) it might not be that terrible.

[Slocs]

Don't worry Gordon is healthy. hah, hah, hah. Sign Lohse and then see where we need him.

[The Theory]

"If they handle this correctly (sign Lohse, move Myers to closer) it might not be that terrible."

IF. Ha. More likely, if there is a problem, the Phillies F.O. will refuse to acknowledge there is a problem, maintaining that it is only a little injury and he'll be ready on opening day... then opening day will become a two week trip to the Dl... then that two weeks turns into two months, by which time we will have forgotten that Lidge is even on the team as Gordon saves two games for us before getting injured himself. Houston, Romero is our new closer!

(/panic button)

[diggitydave]

It is really crazy Kyle Lohse still isn't signed for the upcoming year... Any chance he pulls an A-rod/Sheff/Kenny Rogers, just fires Scott Boras, and pursues his own endeavors??

[xfactor]

Brett may be happier and even more effective as a closer, but no way can they replace his talent as a starter.

Myers often dominates and goes deep into games, which is critical given the weakness at the bottom of the rotation.

He just cannot allow himself to be ejected. The Mets will bait him mercilessly to try to make him lose his cool. A couple of beard burners should keep them quiet, as long as he doesn't decapitate anyone.

Blown saves hurt, they are dramatic and memorable, but over time Brett Myers still helps more as a starter, especially in the playoffs.

Bottom line: Brett needs to give the Phillies as many quality innings as possible. He can't do that in the bullpen.

[MG]

Guaranteed the health of Lidge becomes the No. 1 story this spring training (and unless something one gets injured). Knock on wood.

[Mike]

I don't have a good feeling about this, but I hope I'm being overly pessimistic. If he is hurt long-term, and the Phils have to move Myers back to the closer role, Lohse's asking price just went up for the Phils.

[denny b.]

Who cares about Kyle Lohse?

There is a reason he isn't signed by anyone yet. He isn't any good.

If Lidge misses some time, so be it. That's baseball. Others will get hurt too.

But, all this pleading for Kyle "Grand Slam in the Playoffs" Lohse? Come on. The Phils have better options (if they need another starter) in their system.

[kdon(in Brussels)]

"The Phils have better options (if they need another starter) in their system."

So wrong it's hilarious.

[Mike]

Who do the Phils have in their system that could step in as a 4th or 5th starter? I'm not saying Lohse is mid-90's Greg Maddux but he's a serviceable 4th or 5th, if not a weak 3rd starter.

[Ben Keeler]

Lohse may not be the greatest, but the Phillies wouldnt have been 2007 NL East Champions without him.

[don schell]

Brett should have a uni with a big YoYo on it

[Andy]

Any chance he pulls an A-rod/Sheff/Kenny Rogers, just fires Scott Boras

No.

Boras just won arbitration with Oliver Perez and, well, since the Phils are desperate is exactly whom Lohse wants re-presenting an offer to them. If they try to sign him now, he will want more than he would've a week ago.

I wonder how long it will be before Amaro comes out to tell us how much he's looking forward to having Jamie Moyer as the #2 and Myers as the closer.

[denny b.]

"The Phils have better options (if they need another starter) in their system."

So wrong it's hilarious

Why? The guy is 11 games under .500 in his career with a ERA near 5.00

He hasn't had a winning season since 2003.

Again, its Kyle Lohse. This isn't Roger Clemens coming out of retirement. Kyle Lohse is a below average 4th or slightly above average 5th starter. And, for the money he is asking, he ain't worth it. Hence, he is unemployed right now.

Give Outman or Happ or Carrasco a chance. Give either Durbin a shot. There are other options in the system, that are no worse than Lohse and who knows, might be even better if they get the chance.

[LeiterMIlnerFasterStronger]

I hope he's healthy. This is shaping up to be a fun rivalry year, and I'd hate to see it sullied before opening day.

Also, when you're ten games out in September, I'd hate for there to be any legit excuses.

[The Theory]

No worse than Lohse? That is being highly optimistic.

It is possible that one of those people might perform around Lohse's level... however, how much time would be wasted experimenting and fiddling... calling one person up, giving them a few starts, only to find out that they aren't ready for the bigs yet... At least we know what we would get in Lohse: six solid innings that will keep us in games.

[MG]

A slight alteration of one of my favorite rants of all time: "[Steve Carlton] isn't walking through that door, friends. [Robin Roberts] isn't walking through that door, and [Insert random Phils' starter who actually gave them more than 2 or 3 years] is not walking through that door. And if they did, they'd be old and gray."

[MG]

Denny B. comments are the kind of bizarro logic I will call "hometown drinking logic." This phenomenon is quite common in Philly (especially among Eagles' fans). It basically occurs when a totally unproven commodity is clearly superior to a known, yet average or slightly above average, quantity.

Case in point: Lohse

People are right when they are say Lohse is a league average pitcher. Here are his numbers since coming to the NL in 2006 (Cincy and Philly):

4.61 ERA, 1.38 WHIP, 255.7 IP, 6.08 K/9, 2.67 K/BB, 1.02 HR/9

These number are pretty along the league average for starters in the NL in 2007. Lohse has a slightly better WHIP and K/BB ratio while having a slightly lower K/9 ratio.

I do think is pretty clear why no team is eager to sign Lohse to a 3 year deal. Eaton was the example of what can happen.

Still, the Phils have 2 starters now that will post significantly better numbers than this (Hamels and Myers). I just don't see another starter who puts up better numbers than Lohse likely would with the Phils. That is the kicker.

Even an average starter who clearly have value because it is likely the Phils have going to get a number of starts from the back of their rotation this year that are below-average and the Phils don't have a deep bullpen to fall back either.

I hope that Kendrick can even come close to duplicating these numbers but it is pretty doubtful. I would be happy if Kendrick proves that last season wasn't a total fluke, turns in an competent season (say ERA around 4.50-4.75), and eats some innings for the Phils. If he does that, he will probably win more than 10 games with this offense.

I am just not that optimistic that Moyer will be able to post much better numbers than last year and I have a zero faith that Eaton will be effective or healthy.

I hate to beat a dead horse but I can't see the harm in signing Lohse to a 1-year deal at decent money with an option. The problem is that the Phils are going to "try and get their money's worth out of Eaton this year." That essentially means that Eaton is going to be a starter in this rotation regardless of performance as long as he is healthy and it will really hurt this team again.

[MG]

Gillick better hope that the Phils' can catch lightening in a bottle again this season and call up a starter in May/June who has a huge impact on this team like Hamels did in '06 and Kendrick in '07. If not for these contributions (and Romero in '07), the Phils wouldn't been in the playoff race come mid-Sept either season.

[Tray]

I'm all for signing Lohse, but not so we can put Myers back in the bullpen. I mean, if Lidge can't pitch for some lengthy span of time, then that's what we must do, but some of you sound like you think Myers belongs in that role. I would remind you that, with Myers out of the rotation, we would have nothing even resembling a #2 starter. And for that matter, if Lidge is only out a few weeks, I'd let Gordon close instead of yanking Myers around from one role to another.

[RaceMcCloud]

This could be a blessing in disguise for Phillies fans. Now maybe you won't have to suffer through Brad Lidge "closing" games. That homer he gave up to Pujols a few years back in the playoffs STILL hasn't landed.

Seriously, bring Lidge to homer-happy Citizen's Bank is... more than questionable.

[kdon(in Brussels)]

Denny, you seem to be making two points:

1) That Lohse isn't worth the money

2) The Phillies currently have better options for the 5th spot

The first point is debatable, and if Boras is till holding out for 5/55, absolutely correct.

But he is certainly better than either of the Durbins or Eaton. As MG pointed out, he is basically a league average pitcher (95 OPS+, which is right about average for a starter), which is miles better than the Phillies options for the #5 spot, and possible better than 3 or 4.

Consider, if a 95 OPS+ is average for a starter (100 is obviously average for all pitchers, but reliever ERA is always lower), than Loshe is basically the average of all the stating pitchers in baseball...so that would make him an average #3, not a below average #4.

[EastFallowfield]

If Lohse can be league average pitching his home games in Cincy and Philly then he's probably worth some money. Whether he'll accept not taking Boras level money is the issue?

[GM-Carson]

I'm optimistic about the season, but anytime I hear about any injury, no matter how small I get nervous because with the Phils they never disclose the entire extent of the injury until the dude is laid up on the 60-day DL with season ending surgery. I'm not saying that's the case with Lidge, but when I heard about this my stomach turned.

[Lansdale Larry]

Hey KDon, if Loshe is so avg, why doesn't he have a job? Every team is looking for pitching, and I know of the Borras factor, still if this is guy was worth anything he'd be in camp somewhere....He is not the answer

[Andy]

Larry - Lohse is average. He is, however, requesting an above average contract - especially in terms of years. Teams seem to prefer paying pitchers for the shortest amount of time possible. I do not know his latest request, but he started out at five years. No one's interested.

[Jon]

I am not ready to panic, however Gillick deserves to be chastised for once again saying the bullpen was an area of concern and only addressing that concern with Lidge (whom now felt something in pull in his knee). Bottom line, the Phils needed a couple more new arms down in the pen to go along with Lidge. Pray Lidge is healthy and effective this season, cause it's too late now with regard to picking up anyone else decent... Again...

[kdon(in Brussels)]

Hey Larry,

Nice to just dismiss the Boras factor, as if that is 90% of the reason.

If you think teams are signing Josh Fogg, Livan Hernandez, Matt Clement, and Kris Benson because they think they are better than Lohse, and not because of their contract demands, you can't read a stat sheets.

Teams are avoiding Loshe not because they don't think he is average, but because he wants to be paid like he is *above* average.

[phila fan in dc]

In the last post, someone asked for more on the Scott Sheridan, our trainer. Scott Lauber delievers:

http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080224/SPORTS01/802240367/1002/SPORTS

Also, anyone else notice that Rolen would have accepted a trade back to the Phillies?

http://www.philly.com/philly/sports/phillies/20080224_On_Baseball__New_Blue_Jay_Rolen_puts_Cardinals_behind_him.html

[bay_area_phan]

Carson: When I heard about this injury, I had the identical reaction as you did. There are only 3 ways this can play out. The first way is that the injury is minor, in which case the Phillies will say it's minor & they expect him ready for opening day. The second way is that the injury is season-ending, in which case the Phillies will say it's minor & they expect him ready for opening day. The third way is that the injury is relatively serious, but not quite season ending, in which case the Phillies will say it's minor & will trot him out to pitch in April. After he has cost them 10 games in the first 2 months of the season, they'll put him on the shelf, with Ruben Amaro stating, "He has actually been injured all along, but he's such a gamer that he never said anything about it."

Since the injury occurred on literally the first pitch of ST, and involved the same knee on which he just had surgery, I would imagine this is going to play out under either the 2nd or 3rd scenario.

[Johan Santana]

If you Philly fans really think that the loss of Lidge would "end your season," you didnt have much of a season to begin with. LETS GO METS

[Another Infantile Mets fan wishing he was Johan Santana]

blah blah Philly fans blather blah blah blah blah blah blah blah "blah blah blather," blah blather blah blah of a blather blah blather blah. LETS GO METS

[TomG]

Now I know why the Houston Astros didn't resign Lidge, he is damaged goods. The guy had knee surgery in October on the knee he uses to push off the rubber on, not to smart by Philly management to sign Lidge. But the good news is
Philly management signed Chris Benson.

[B-Mac]

Look guys, he's only out 3-6 weeks, which puts him healthy at the first week of the season at the latest. Let's just hope for a good surgery so we see him back as soon as possible. Anyways, having gordon close for a couple of weeks isn't the apocalypse anyways. The starters are going to need to step up anyways if we want to be successful.

[king myno]

Gordon closing may not be the Apocalypse, but it is a sign that the End Times are near.

[Rev]

I advocated keeping Myers in the pen after the Lidge acquisition. With Lidge now out 3-6 weeks (http://www.philly.com/philly/hp/news_update/20080224_Lidge_to_have_knee_surgery_tomorrow.html)
it makes even more sense. My logic then was that a bullpen with Myers closing, Lidge setting up, and the ability to mix and match Gordon, Romero, and Madson would be devastating. In order to make this happen they would obviously need to bring in another starter. Lohse is probably the best available. I firmly believe that Myers is too ADD and has too short an attention span to be a starter. I think he realizes this about himself and this is why closing appeals to him.

[tonyd]

Lidge out 3-6 weeks after surgery on monday according to espn.com.

[Philly Sucks]

So tell me Philly phans....whats gonna to that craptastic pen now that Lidge will miss all of Spring Training and a the first few weeks of the season? Better hope for the Mets to get really injured and complacent this year.

[Philly Sucks]

"Now I know why the Houston Astros didn't resign Lidge, he is damaged goods. The guy had knee surgery in October on the knee he uses to push off the rubber on, not to smart by Philly management to sign Lidge."

Exactly. The man was injured goods and I can't wait to see how the animals in Philadelphia will treat him when he blows a big save in that bandbox ballpark.

"But the good news is
Philly management signed Chris Benson."

LOL! This guy is also funny on top of being smart. A double threat guy!

[PhillyRocks]

Posted by: Another Infantile Mets fan wishing he was Johan Santana | Sunday, February 24, 2008 at 02:42 PM

Now I know why the Houston Astros didn't resign Lidge, he is damaged goods. The guy had knee surgery in October on the knee he uses to push off the rubber on, not to smart by Philly management to sign Lidge. But the good news is
Philly management signed Chris Benson.
========================================

Absolutely Classic.

People should not panic yet. It is not a major injury. Please come off the bridge

[Don't Be Mad]

Posted by: Another Haterish Philly phan wishing his team had Johan Santana | Sunday, February 24, 2008 at 03:50 PM

Gee, me team sucks. Its the the end of the world. At least I have the Eagles. Oops. Well, at least there are the Flyers. Um, no. How about the 76'ers? Ouch.

I guess I'll just have to settle for beating my wife in a drunken rage like my idol Brett Myers!

[mw_217]

Grow up. Don't you have anything better to do?

[Mike H.]

Fearless Prediction Time: Lidge does not return earlier than June 1.

I'm going to paraphrase from a recent Sporting News Fantasy article that I found helpful. Last season, nine pitchers who didn't begin the season as their team's closer finished with at least 15 saves (Kevin Gregg led his group with 32 and Myers ended up with 21). Even with injuries, demotions, and other volatility associated with the closer role, guys like Matt Capps, Jeremy Accardo or Alan Embree did register some saves.

It could be worse... it could be March 24.

[Philly sucks]

"Grow up. Don't you have anything better to do?"

This coming from a guy who roots for the Phillies? Don't you have anything better to do than root for this piece of crap franchise?

[brio]

I didn't realize Lidge played for the Flyers. Time to heat up those Lohse negotiations.

[Philly sucks]

Poor Philly phans are now pinning their pathetic hopes on overpaying Lohse for 4-5 years to pitch in that bandbox park. Yeah, he's what's gonna save your team when Cole Hammels goes down to injury late in the season yet again.

[mw_217]

"Don't you have anything better to do than root for this piece of crap franchise?"

You see, unlike the 20 million of you in the New York area, most sports fans don't have the option (or disgracefulness) to start rooting for the team from across town when they get frustrated.

[brio]

Philly sucks: maybe history will repeat itself. I seem to remember 2007 playing out that way, combined w/ the most pathetic collapse in the history of North American sports.

[Poor Philly Phans]

"You see, unlike the 20 million of you in the New York area, most sports fans don't have the option (or disgracefulness) to start rooting for the team from across town when they get frustrated."

Still listening to Chipper Jones huh? That rube wouldn't know anything about NYC if the 7 Train hit in across his face. Anyone who knows about NYC knows that the baseball fans there hate each other's teams with a passion. But if I was a Phillies fan, I'd also want to have another team to root for too. Too bad the Athletics left all those years ago, huh?

[Philly Sucks]

"Philly sucks: maybe history will repeat itself. I seem to remember 2007 playing out that way, combined w/ the most pathetic collapse in the history of North American sports."

Yes it was rather sad. It only took a slew of injuries and the most abyssmal collapse in regular season history for the Phillies to win the East by 1 game before they were swept by the Rockies. Here's to hoping that your franchise is so lucky the next time around.

[brio]

"Yes it was rather sad. It only took a slew of injuries and the most abyssmal collapse in regular season history for the Phillies to win the East by 1 game before they were swept by the Rockies. Here's to hoping that your franchise is so lucky the next time around."

And the Phillies had no injuries? Myers, Gordon, Utley, Madson all missing a month or more, and Howard 2+ weeks. Face it, the Phils won the games they had to, including 8 straight vs. the Mutts.

[mw_217]

Yeah, the Phillies were really healthy last year when they swept you 8 games in a row and won the NL East.

I just hope for your sake that your aging, decrepit team and its headcase poster boys like Jose Reyes and Carlos Delgado don't choke so horribly again.

And again, you've now spent more than an hour posting on another team's website. What's the matter, nobody would talk to you on metsblog?

[Bob]

And the Mets collapse had nothing to do with the fact that the Phillies smoked them every time they played them.

[Philly Sucks]

No, no, no. I agree the Phillies won the games they had to and perservered. My point is only to say that even by your admission it took the greatest collapse in regular season history for the Phillies to accomplish winning the division despite all of this. Such a collapse, as rare as it was, only happens once in a blue moon. Tell me, are you guys really banking on this happening again? If so, I'm gonna have alot fun on this site in the future.

Better hope guys like Rollins have another peak season!

[Crazy Jon]

Phils have been snakebit with acquisitions via trade the last few years...

[Philly Sad]

"Phils have been snakebit with acquisitions via trade the last few years..."

Which is yet another reason, I'd be careful in calling another team old if I were a Philly phan. Your farm system is completely obliterated and your best players are peaking (Howard, Burrell, Utley, Rollins) or injury prone (Hamels) this season. In a few years your team won't have squat, but at least you'll always have 2007.

[lekh tizdayen]

Even with the given that Lidge's 3-6 weeks of recovery (which would have him ready by the third week in april at the worst) is likely to be more like 2-3 months as this is the phillies we're dealing with, there is no need to panic and put Myers back in the closer's role. A healthy Gordon can close for two weeks or maybe we roll the dice with one of our hard throwing fringe pitchers with that NL hitters haven't seen yet.

[Pride of Philly]

Philly sucks:
Its a shame that you come on here talking about the mets but yet the Phils decided to give the Mutts a one month headstart last season and still won the division.

[Pride of Philly]

So beerleaguers since Lidge hits the DL who gets the roster spot?

[Philly Sucks]

"Its a shame that you come on here talking about the mets but yet the Phils decided to give the Mutts a one month headstart last season and still won the division."

Keep on believing you can spot any divisional rival another headstart month. It'll be fun watching your team trying to catch up hoping you can repeat the same finish from last season. You guys got worse and the rest of the division got better, but you'll always have the leftover faith of 07 to pull your team through the suckitude of this season. Lidge's injury will be the first problem in a looooong season.

[Andy]

Pride:
Vic Darensbourg!!!!
(j/k)
(Had to say that for Doc Justice)

[Andy]

P.S.
1) It is a long season - or as you have chosen to spell it "loooong." (I know that y'all have pretty much decided that teams don't have to actually play the games - but the consensus across the league is, unfortunately for you - the Mets will have to play their 162 just like everyone else, regardless of Santana.)

2) You have spent so much time here on our site, that I wonder about your team loyalty. I'm beginning to suspect that you really want to become a Phillies fan - which I understand, of course. (You can prove me wrong by not sending any more obnoxious posts in which you quote whole paragraphs to which you are, ostensibly, responding.) The catch is that you may need to find a way to increase your intelligence, pick your knuckles off the floor and begin breathing through your nostrils.

3. Oh, and get a life.

[bay_area_phan]

Mike H: I second your fearless prediction.

[clout]

Best Post of the Day:

"The Phils have better options (if they need another starter) in their system."

So wrong it's hilarious.

Posted by: kdon(in Brussels) | Saturday, February 23, 2008 at 07:29 PM

[clout]

Crazy Jon: "Phils have been snakebit with acquisitions via trade the last few years..."

That's one way of looking at it. It's certainly the way management wants you to look at it.

[The Theory]

Well, considering how the Phillies USUALLY start off, there may not be many save opportunities during the first month, anyway...

[Phrustrated]

imagine if we would have signed Schill? our top two offseason pickups down the tubes before Wright and Reyes take even one homo-erotic picture together?

Scott Mathieson for close campaign anyone? kidding...

[Alby]

Truth be told, I'm not upset to see Gordon at closer to start the season; he'll work less there than he would at set-up, and he's going to need all the rest he can get. I say this because I don't think the rest of the pen can get him many save opportunities. The wins are going to have to be high-scoring affairs.

Tip for posters annoyed by Mets fans: Don't feed the trolls.

[clout]

Alby: That's one way to spin it. Who's your setup man? Madson?

[Jack]

Do people think its a coincidence that we keep getting "snakebit" by injuries? I honestly wish that we had an organization that actually cared about things like having a real medical staff, using new technology, doing research, stuff that you need to do to have a long-term successful top notch organization these days. We have no clue. Our franchise is probably considered a joke by most inside baseball, or at least those inside baseball who are intelligent and have a clue what they are doing.

[MG]

Ugh. There is not one positive about Lidge's surgery. I can't believe anyone would be foolish to post otherwise. At this point, I just hope the Phils don't foolishly rush him back. If Lidge needs until May because he needs to make a few rehab appearances, than so be it. I just don't think the Lidge is going to be 100% at anytime this year and I just hope they can get some kind of significant contribution from him.

[Alby]

Well, I could find another bright side -- this season, we have an excuse for a 6-15 start!

Seriously, how can anyone think saying "Gordon will work less as closer" equates to "It's a good thing Lidge got hurt"? Lighten up, people.

[Andy]

Alby - quick question.
Who equated "Gordon will work less as closer" to "It's a good thing Lidge got hurt"?

I didn't see that anywhere.

[B-Mac]

With Lidge hurt, I would be inclined to let Romero shift back into more of a set-up role so he could close on Gordon's days off. He's the surest thing we got, so until Lidge gets back, you'd want him pitching the big innings. Youman or Zagurski wouldn't make bad LOOGY's for the short term.

[Bob]

clout.. if you think management doesn't want to win then you're just not very intelligent. They could very simply have a payroll of 50-million if they wanted to lose. Such a cliche that management doesn't want to win. Just enjoy the best Phillies team that we've had since 1983. There's 3 mvp candidates plus cole hamels, all home-grown.

[Bob]

Philly Sucks: we're not banking on another Mets collapse. The Phillies will lead the division wire to wire this year.

[bay_area_phan]

Meanwhile, Michael Bourn will probably have a .380 OBP with 80 stolen bases this year, while Michael Costanzo becomes the Orioles' starting third baseman and hits 30 homeruns.

[clout]

Bob: Your post is a non sequitur. Please show me where I said "management doesn't want to win." Thanks.

[Mike H.]

BAP, 30 HRs with 220 Ks, perhaps. ;-)

What if the Phillies sign Wickman tomorrow?

[clout]

B-Mac: That's what I'd do. The odds are against Romero repeating his '07 season, but Madson doesn't have the talent or makeup to be a setup man and no else else in the 'pen comes close. Gordon can be closer for the first 2 weeks of the season and hopefully Lidge's rehab won't extend into May.

[MG]

One other point I don't understand is how some people are insisting that the Phils will be fine with Gordon as their closer (even for a month). Don't people remember last April?

Gordon hasn't been right since the 1st half of '06. Even when Gordon came back last year, he was far from dominant. He basically was a fastball pitcher who rarely threw his money-pitch (curve). Gordon didn't even though his slider much either.

Given that Gordon has now been thrust into a key role again - I really want to see him pitch this spring. I am less concerned about the results. Hell, I am not even worried about his velocity unless his fastball isn't clocking above 90 MPH.

I want to see if Gordon is:

1. Throwing his curveball
2. If he can throw it for strikes
3. If it has 12-6 action that made it an out pitch for Gordon during this prime

This might just be the most single most important thing to watch now in Phils' camp.

[MG]

Given that the Phils aren't likely to commit the funds to sign Lohse, it is worth taking a flyer on Wickman?

[Bob]

clout: Crazy Jon: "Phils have been snakebit with acquisitions via trade the last few years..."

That's one way of looking at it. It's certainly the way management wants you to look at it.

Unless you just mean management's goal was to trade 3 players for a guy they knew would never play

[Andy]

I like the idea of checking out Wickman. He wants to be a closer, the few (several?) weeks that Lidge is unavailable gives the opportunity to show if he can still do it. When Lidge returns, it gives the team the option of choosing the best combination between the two. Last year, Lidge was a better set-up. It might give the Phils the depth they've been lacking.

Of course, whether Wickman's got anything left in the tank is another matter.

[Mike H.]

MG, I also remember 2 April's ago when Flash earned his nickname. In 10 and two-thirds innings, he had an 0.87 ERA, 17 K's, 5 walks, 6 saves, and an opponent batting average of .114 - four singles and no XBH in 41 plate appearances.

How'd he do it? By doing what you just said - throwing the curve for strikes and outs. We'll see this spring.

[Andy]

Bob - what I heard was that management would like to have people think that they're snakebit rather than incompetent.

clout - feel free to correct me if I've misinterpreted you.

[clout]

Bob: Wow, what a bizarre way to interpret that.

Crazy Jon wrote: "Phils have been snakebit with acquisitions via trade the last few years..."
Please note the plural in both number of trades and in period of time. He is talking about more than just the Lidge deal. I am suggesting that his view is one that management would like fans to have. But there are other views of the trades this team has made over the past 3 years. There is NOTHING in this post that suggests management wants to lose.

[clout]

Andy: That is 100% correct.

[Bob]

right. and they are more snakebit than incompetant. everyone was thrilled when they signed garcia last year. then all of the sudden it was management's fault he got hurt. everyone was thrilled management "spent money" and gave burrell a long-term deal. then it was management's fault for giving burrell a long-term contract. etc. etc. etc.

[Andy]

everyone was thrilled when they signed garcia last year

Nope.
I cried out in anguish when they traded Gio Gonzalez away.

[Andy]

Maybe they'll re-sign Freddy Garcia. He can join the rotation and Myers can close.

.

right