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Tuesday, January 29, 2008

Comments

Good commentary by Law, but he does illustrate the weaknesses the Mets have in the backside of their rotation and their bullpen, which hopefully will be there downfall. Watching the phillies come back on the mets bullpen after santana has a great start will be priceless.

Im sorry, where in the article did he: "illustrate the weaknesses the Mets have in the backside of their rotation and their bullpen"?

All he says regarding the bullpen is that it was over worked in 07...

All he says about Maine and Perez is that they wont have to face number 1 and 2 starters anymore. That sounds to me like great praise, saying that two guys who won 15 games each are now the back of the rotation.

I just read the article, and Law never said any such thing. In fact, he claimed the addition of Santana strengthens the Mets Pen and the rest of the rotation.

J. Weitzel, Great job on this site. One of the best BB Blogs around.

Very good column. The most frustrating thing to me about this deal is the fact that the Mets didn't have to give up more than they did. Even if two of these players become stars, the deal will still probably favor the Mets if Santana physically holds up. Plus the Mets still have their best pitching and everyday prospect. It is really all upside for the Mets. If I was a Twins fans I'd be really angry. However, I'm far from ready to give the division to the Mets. This should be one heck of a dogfight all year between the Phils, Mets and Braves now. For all the Mets fans saying that the Phillies only beat them by a game last year, don't forget the Phillies had to fight through an abnormal number of injuries. If the Phillies can stay healthy, and it is hard to believe that they'll have as many injuries as they did last year, they will be good for more wins than last year just right there. Kyle Lohse would be a nice pickup now though.

I was about to say that PhillR. I don't know what the hell B-Mac is talking about.

The Mets' biggest weakness is still their middle relief. Heilman and Wags are both two of the best late relievers in the NL, but if Johan is the only pitcher getting past the 6th inning, the same issues that doomed the Mets last year will rear their head again.

The other question for the Mets is lineup health: Alou, Delgado and Castillo are all on the decline. We'll see what the Mets get out of them this year. If these three put up anything close to career average numbers, the Mets take the division easily.

Interesting note on Delgado. The season as a whole was definitely a down year, however his numbers after the all-star break were very close to his career norms.

Usually a player in decline would see his numbers be worse in the 2nd half as they get tired, not the first half. His severe first half decline appears to be injury related and not necessarily a downward trend.

I think it is pretty clear that Mets fans should be happy with 80 games out of Alou. Of course when Alou is playing he is a terror to behold.

Castillo, up or down it doesn't matter. He is offensively meaningless. The Mets haven't had real production out of 2B in the last 5 years.

I was saying this in the other forum, but normalize for park effect (just look at their RS splits) and the Phillies and Mets were essentially equivalent. Phillies scored 442 runs on the road, the Mets scored 437.

Last year the Mets had a choke year from Reyes and an injured Delgado. Ryan Church is probably an upgrade, but no worse then Green.

The Phillies offense is probably a couple of runs better too assuming Howard is settle. Perez at 3B is no upgrade though.

There is really no escaping this conclusion, the two teams have equivalent offenses however the Mets now have a VASTLY superior rotation. Anyone who thinks Hamels/Moyer is anywhere near as good as Santana/Pedro is quite literally on crack.

You guys forget we a much recovered and wise Pedro Martinez and for the bullpen, Duaner Sanchez , and Juan Padilla, and Wise from Milwaukee. So suck it up people we gunning for you now. Go METS!

PhillR: one quick nit-pick with your analysis above (interesting, by the way) is that the correct comparison is Hamels/Myers (not Moyers) to Santana/Pedro. It may still favor the Mets (depends on how well you think Pedro will hold up and whether Hamels will continue to play to his potential), but Myers is the Phils' #2 pitcher. Hopefully, Moyers will be 4 or 5.

MLBTR says several other teams have jumped in on Bedard. Obviously it's quite unlikely the phils are one of them...but one can dream. I know we've talked about this ad nauseum and we don't have the players, but hey, if Santana only costs the Mets what it did then maybe its worth a shot. So, as I prepare for the inevitable backlash, I propose the following: Madson, Carrasco, Cardenas, Happ, Jaramillo. Personally I think that might weaken our farm system to much and Baltimore might laugh, but should we not at least be making offers for Bedard, Snell, Blanton, and the like...not that the phillies would ever thing to do something like this. Again, I'm just shooting for the moon out of frustration so I wouldn't take this post all to seriously.

Lekh: I agree. I would offer the farm system for Bedard now. Hamels/Bedard/Myers would be great. The sad thing is that offering our farm system wouldn't be enough for Bedard.

lekh: Why do we need Bedard? We signed Chad Durbin.

Lekh, if Angelos isn't willing to give up Bedard for Adam Jones, I don't know why he'd do it for Carrasco and the rest. Of course, Minnesota dealt Santana for Gomez but turned down Phil Hughes. That really puzzles me. Gomez was highly touted a year ago but I thought by now people were starting to realize that he was more of a Lastings Milledge than the real thing.

Len: That's the kind of defeatist attitude that I was talking about in my earlier post. If you decide ahead of time that it's not worth making an offer because you don't have what it takes to get a particular player . . . well, then you're never going to get that player.

The Mets just got the game's best pitcher for a relative pittance. Bedard is one of only about 2 or 3 pitchers in baseball who is very nearly on Santana's level. To acquire him would essentially even the score. We may not have an Adam Jones-type prospect in our farm system, but we can make up for it by throwing in a few guys like Kendrick & Victorino, who have proven success at the major league level.

b_a_p, you're right. We should at least ask what the asking price is.

On a positive note, at least this renders my debate with clout over whether the Mets had improved this offseason moot.

Bay-area: You are 100% right. I would hate to include Victorino in anything now as that would create a huge hole in CF and I love his defense, but if this team is serious about winning now they have to at least try. We have a good, young nucleaus (that Bedard would just add too) so I think we can overpay in prospects and then concentrate on rebuilding the farm system while this young nucleaus flourishes for the next several years. I believe Bedard has two years left until he is a free agent too, which is another plus.

Bedard is the one guy who is available and help to close the gap.

Two things though - I don't see how the Phils get Bedard without trading some key players they are already counting on this year (Kendrick, Victorino) and if you trade the house for Bedard though, you have to make the commitment to sign him to a long-term deal (say minimum 5 years). If Lohse is too rich for the Phils' blood, I just don't see how they will make a $90-$100 M investment in Bedard.

In New York, they are celebrating an upcoming Super Bowl and the acquisition of Johan Santana. In Philly, we are celebrating the fact that TO owes us money and the acquisition of Pedro Feliz. God, I feel pathetic.

And if you don't see them making that investment in Bedard, how about in Hamels in 2010? The endemic problem is always being one short of the Mets, the Yankees, and the Red Sox. And Them will never quite understand that.


Trading Vic would be difficult, as they have no one who is remotely adequate to replace him -- particularly on defense. But you're not going to get a marquee starting pitcher without making any difficult moves in return. If I included Vic in a package to get Eric Bedard, I'd immediately follow up by trying to sign Kenny Lofton, who could platoon with Taguchi in CF. Another possibility would be to sign Shannon Stewart. Of course, these moves would all require a considerable expenditure of money, so I think we can safely rule them out.

Mets fan here, but I let me offer the disclaimer that I like this site. I won't go into defending my fellow Mets fans decisions to act like spoiled sports in relation to today's events.

However, I'd like to point out that Bedard's scenario is not really a good comparison to Santana's.

Johan had a full no-trade clause and in essence could dictate where the Twins could send him. Bedard is under contract for more years and is remarkably forcing a trade to get out of Baltimore because pitching there might hurt his future value. Johan knew that right now is potentially the highest his theoretical trade value (assuming no no-trade and a reasonably efficient free agent market) was the highest it was going to reach.

Yet, who in baseball thought that he wasn't going to a NY team, Boston or maybe LAD/LAA?

That being said, I am realistic in thinking that Johan by himself will cause the NL East favorite tag to relocate to Queens. If anything I would wait to see whether Myers's adjustment to the rotation plus Lidge's adjustment to CBP have more of a direct impact on whether you guys are the team to beat in 2008.

I am not sure if the Mets have the pure 1-2 punch that Arizona or San Diego currently has. But one thing I am sure of is that this should eliminate the number of starts by guys like Chan Ho Park Brian Lawrence, Dave Williams, et al.


Johan Santana and Pedro Martinez not the best 1-2 punch in the NL? You sound as delusional as calling Pedro Feliz a good pickup! You're looking at a guaranteed 18 game winner in 2008 and the second best #2 pitcher in baseball behind Schilling.

And you still got him for peanuts!

I don't know about SD because Peavy has no great 2 behind him but I'd probably go with Webb+Haren over Johan/Pedro. Close but only for the rumored health concerns+mileage of the latter two, though easily a healthy vintage year of Pedro leaves AZ in the dust.

Anyone seen Santana's career Interleague line ....Yikes :
182.2 IP, 16-4, 191 K, 2.27 ERA, 0.91 WHIP.

As for the division it was a dogfight two days ago but it will take quite a few of ifs for the Mets to followed closely by ATL+PHI.

ATL worried me more than the Mets 2 days ago as well. It's sad that 3rd place in the NL East would probably wire to wire lead the Central.

I'm not jumping off any bridges at this point. The Mets have made one significant acquisition in the off-season, Johan Santana. In other words it is the same team that vomited all over itself in the last half of the season, plus one really good pitcher. Considering that the Phillies essentially vomited on themselves to start the season, had a rash of injuries that was unprecedented (Including losing Cole Hamels for significant time), I am not that concerned. If the Phillies start off better and can go through the season with just normal injury casualty rates, they will be fine and right in the hunt with the greatest choke jobs in the history of baseball.

GM-Carson will sadly no longer be with us as of last night he had perished due to the news of Johan Santana going to the hated Mets. Donations for flowers can be sent to his address:
666 Styx River
Hellbound, WV 00000

Bedard's never going to happen as long as Angelos runs the Orioles. he has a long history of nixing entirely reasonable trade offers.

Snell is not as much of a game-changer as Bedard, but I think he's a far more likely trade candidate. he's someone I think the Phils should seriously pursue.

of course, since it is the Phillies, the only thing they're actually going to do is nothing.

In New York, they are celebrating an upcoming Super Bowl and the acquisition of Johan Santana. In Philly, we are celebrating the fact that TO owes us money and the acquisition of Pedro Feliz. God, I feel pathetic.

But we have cost certainty!!! YAY!!! YAY!!!

That was a nice one-year run as NL East champs. If this development doesn't get Gillick off his rump to sign Lohse, nothing will.

i felt that all the way over hear. somehow distance does make this easier to deal with. yuck i hate this. i shohuld be freaking out. i hate the way the phillies are run and have been run for the 25 years. i still think the phills can hang with the mets for a season and pull it out on that last sunny sunday afternoon.

This sucks, obviously, and should make the Phillies realize that they need to add Loshe, regardless of the price.

It isn't so much that I think he would be worlds better than C. Durbin, but you have to worry about Kendrick (unproven), Moyer (old), Hamels (injury prone) making it through the season.

Eaton and Durbin need to be the 6th and 7th starters entering the season, not 4 and 5 if one pitcher goes down.

The Mets now have to win the division, minimum. If they do, it'll still be fun for one year. Then from every year on, they have to win the WS. Takes some of the joy of the regular season for them. They didn't handle that kind of season last year very well.

Once again, Phils will be a pleasant surprise if they just win the division.

I continue to think the problem with the Seattle trade is the Orioles want to include a big salary, ie Mora.

Thrillhouse - the Cubs look pretty awesome to me.

Speaking of the Cubs, can we team with them so they get Roberts and we get Felix Pie or Muton, along with Bedard. The O's get Cardenas (Roberts future) replacement, Donald, Victorino, some young pitchers/prospects from a pool of Carasco, Kendrick, Madson, Gallagher, Happ, Outman. Cubs get one of Phillies prospects to replace Gallagher. I'm not saying the Phils trade everyone but the O's might be more inclined to do this trade if they get Gallagher from the Cubs and Carrasco from us along with some other players.

As for Snell, Buccoblog reported in early January "Pittsburgh Pirates GM Neal Huntington passed on a Jones-Morrow-Sherrill" from the Mariners. However, I think the Phils should pursue Snell because they can likely keep Kendrick. Hamels, Myers, Snell, Kendrick, Moyer looks to be a solid 5.

Also if we trade Vic, Coco Crisp and Marlon Byrd could be traded for.

I know many fans here are just trying to be optimistic and root for their team, but...

The Mets staff is much better as a whole than the Phils. They have a the best starter in baseball at the top. They have a HOF #2 (whose surgery suggests he will come back strong, as history has shown), and a 15 game winner at the 3 and 4 spot. At 5, they have a crafty veteran that had a 3.7 era last year and pitches well in big games, OR a youngster with upside. The Phillies have a strong top 2 (Myers wasn't even good last year, stop annointing him, and HE has to stay healthy too right? Not just the Mets starters that can get hurt...) The Phillies 3-5 is just not even close to NY. Adam Eaton, Chad Durbin, Jamie Moyer, whatever combination it is, is just far too weak to compete with Perez, Maine, and Duque/Pelfrey.

The Mets bullpen ERA was 8th last year to the Phillies 13th, and they are expecting Duaner Sanchez (their best reliever not named Wagner) and Juan Padilla back. Additionally, if Pelfrey wins a job, El Duque is now a reliever, where his 5+ pitches make him MORE valuable.

What a difference a day makes. The Phils go from front runners to also rans in one day due to the Twins. Will I be forced to eject whatever's in my CD player and insert a Santana CD? My favorite is the first Santana CD with Jingo, Soul Sacrifice and Evil Ways.

I mourn the passing of GM-Carson as the shock was too much for his heart. His zombie body may still give the appearance of life as he goes about his normal everyday activities, but the spirit is gone. The soul has left the body.

If Selig had any male characteristics, he'd negate the trade as being detrimental to baseball and the delicate balance of parity.

Tray: "Gomez was highly touted a year ago but I thought by now people were starting to realize that he was more of a Lastings Milledge than the real thing."

What exactly is Milledge? What do you mean by "real thing"? Milledge is 22 years old. You obviously know something about his future that we don't. Please tell us what it is.

thrillhouse: Are you familiar with Chris Young? ERAs of 3.46 and 3.12 past 2 seasons and overall record of 20-13. I'll take that for my #2. He'd win 25 games with the Phils' offense.

...I thought by now people were starting to realize that he was more of a Lastings Milledge than the real thing.

wow, that's hilarious. I wish the Phillies farm system had a few more Lastings Milledges instead of the AAAA trash and failed prospects we actually have.

Lake Fred,

The self-titles Santana is pretty good, but I think he was at his peak on the Live album with Buddy Miles a few years later.

But for the Phils sake, I'm hoping this Santana is more "Supernatural" than "Abraxas."

JW:

Does this Santana trade and the long term problems Phils will have with all Howard arbitrations make a Bedard for Howard trade an option??

That might get Mr. Angelos' attention especially because it gets Bedard out of the AL.

Ryan Howard is one of my all time favorites but I don't see how the Phils will ever be able to give him what will be Johan/Arod money... and that's what he is looking for or at least the brain trust that is advising him now.

I just have this feeling that once the Johan thing happens, another big shoe is going to drop... probably more than one.

Is one of them Ryan Howard??

Does this Santana trade and the long term problems Phils will have with all Howard arbitrations make a Bedard for Howard trade an option??

no.

Carson's "friend" - if yer gonna post a mock-obit at least give us the gory details. How exactly did our favorite GM meet his demise? What inneffective hallucinogens was he taking? What nostalgic jersey was he found in? How glad is his wife that his son will never have to bear the burden of becoming the next great Phillies lefty starter? etc.

phillies fans: STOP BRINGING UP PEDRO FELIZ IN THE SANTANA DISCUSSION! One has nothing to do with the other. I can see it already, fans are going to boo Feliz all year long, which will really help the Phillies win a championship. Smart thinking. Maybe we can boo him during opening day introductions to show some extra class and intelligence.

Tony G:
Hey, we could send them Howard for Bedard and Costanzo and put Feliz at 1B.

.


.


.


No we couldn't.

Bob - would it be okay if I just mail my "boo" in?

Mets win another off-season!
So what? Aren't you used to that by now? Hows that worked out in the past?...

Good thing Santana has thrown 1000 innings over the past 4 years. The Mets are a late shipment of HGH away from 4th place.

Just another sign that last year the Phillies won DESPITE their front office, cerntainly not because of them. Going to be a bigger uphill climb this year. I do feel that injuries are more prone to strike the Mets (due to past history of many of their key players) and could be key.

Let's just hope the DL time that Hamels, Myers, Howard and Utley saw last year was more of an abberition than anything......

Looks like the Baltimore Sun has the Mets in the running for Bedard...
http://www.baltimoresun.com/sports/baseball/
bal-sp.orioles30jan30,0,926955.story

I'm glad I got tix to opening day this year, since seeing them hang the NL East Champs pennant looks like it may be a rare event. Should we even bother to play the season out? I guess there's always the Wild Card!!!

Seriously, so many act like this is the end of the season before it even starts. Let's not forget the HUGE expectations that are now on the Mets (new stadium, roster upgrades, etc.) and how well they handled that pressure in the recent past.

Wagner on the trade with Cerrone's comments below:

Mets LHP Billy Wagner, as quoted in the New York Post…
“What we lacked last year going into the season was that excitement and I think this truly puts us back into that top five in baseball…I think (the Phillies) are still ahead of us…I honestly think it’s really tight at the top. I’m not going to put us ahead of them because we don’t deserve to be there until we achieve something.”

…absolutely…i was a bit critical of wagner’s comments from Monday, on SNY’s Mets Hot Stove Report, during which he said the Mets should be ranked third in the NL East…but, i hear what he’s saying…and, maybe i just feel better today because of the trade, but, the fact is, wagner is right…it’s only a trade…it means nothing unless this team can go out and actually win…

baxter- one of the smartest comments on here the last two days... thank you.

For curiosity's sake, is there anyone OFF the radar that the Phils could have in a trade, or is pitching just at too much of a premium to give up now-a-days?

Vicki,

The article says the Mets are NOT in the running:

The Orioles rejected the Mets' offer of outfielder Carlos Gomez, reliever Aaron Heilman and pitching prospect Phil Humber. Two of those players - Gomez and Humber - are reportedly headed to the Minnesota Twins for ace Johan Santana, so the Mets are no longer in the running.

Oops, soory - I misread. I read the graf before where it said they were believed to be one of the front runners.

So I guess that's good news now, but the Phils weren't mentioned at all.

Mind you, the Mets didn't have to give up their top outfield or pitching prospects to land Santana. In theory, they could still go after Bedard with those. Not going to happen, but still, that would pretty much end any comparisons.

Gomez may not be their TOP OF prospect, but he's pretty highly rated.

Yes PHillies fans, it wasn't a dream, it is true. I know you hoped you had dreamt it all but no no no. ITS REALLLLLL!!!

Nice to see a little civility from some METS fans, Jason must bring it out in all of us.

This deal from the outside appears heavily favored to the METS similar to a deal the PHILLIES made with the White Sox over a year ago.

Obviously two different situations and Santana is far and away better than Garcia and one would hope better due diligence is done in regards to health concerns with all the money on the line.

However I would proceed with caution METS fans as we felt a similar buzz to only hit the wall of reality which required a doctor's prescription to offset the sting.

Bob: You're one of the biggest Feliz boosters. Are you saying he won't deliver the pennant to Philadelphia?

John D: I think it's pretty obvious by now that Gillick doesn't think the team needs pitching help. They've had all off-season to go after free agent starters and bullpen help and made no attempt after getting Lidge. Once they got Lidge and moved Myers to the rotation, they concluded the pitching needed no further help. They are quite happy with their pitching, from Condrey and Youman and Gordon all the way up to Hamels. No further depth is necessary.

This may explain why the Giants stopped negotiating with Feliz:
"The Chicago Sun-Times speculates that the White Sox and Giants may already "have a deal in place" for Joe Crede if his back looks healthy during spring training."

Crede, who's younger and better than Feliz, makes more sense for the Giants. Be curious to see what they have to give up.

Yes, why doesn't everybody admit that the Feliz signing took us out of the Santana sweepstakes. Our ownership really was about to spend 150 mil on Santana until we signed Feliz for 8.5 mil. Sure threw our budget out of whack.

Talk about a non sequitur...

As the Yankees (Abreu) and now Mets prove, you don't always need prospects to make a trade, just a willingness to spend some shekels...

Phillies won the same amount of playoff games as the mets last year. Man, so much after they lucked out and got in it must have really sucked to have gotten swept.

But at least you guys got a taste of what we'll be eating for the next SEVEN YEARS STRAIGHT!!!!

PHILLIES SUCK A*SSSSS! LOSERS!!!! HAHAHAHAHA YOU GONNA GET MOOOOWWWWEEEEEED DOOOOOOOOWWWWWN!!!!!

EVEEERYYYYYY YEAAAAAARRRRRR!!!!!

Phillies won the same amount of playoff games as the mets last year. Man, so much after they lucked out and got in it must have really sucked to have gotten swept.

But at least you guys got a taste of what we'll be eating for the next SEVEN YEARS STRAIGHT!!!!

PHILLIES SUCK A*SSSSS! LOSERS!!!! HAHAHAHAHA YOU GONNA GET MOOOOWWWWEEEEEED DOOOOOOOOWWWWWN!!!!!

EVEEERYYYYYY YEAAAAAARRRRRR!!!!!

- Knuckle Dragger

Screw Santana, this ain't the end of the world. Let's see how he reacts when Burrell hits a 320 foot, 3 run, pop-up HR into the flower pots in LF. He'll hate pitching in this park. You still gotta win the games.

If you're scared get a dog.

Phils did get Chad Durbin, Clout. So, they didn't conclude they needed "no further help" after getting Lidge.

Why do you mental patient Met fans feel the need to capitalize everything and add 100 exclamation points?

The reason we signed Feliz was that since 2005 he is mashing Santana with a .333 batting average.

Also - since 2003 his post-season average is a whooping .667 with an incredible 2.000 OPS.

LOOK OUT!

do you guys honestly think the phillies had a chance to sign johan in the ballpark they are in? no offense i'm just saying. And all the mets fans on their high horse need to step off. The mets were run as bad as any team before minaya came in and even now people question what he's doing, comes with the territory i guess.

Its funny how phillies fans get mad at the mets fans who are just assholes yet philly is known to have one of the most annoying fan base in sports.

All in all this is gonna be a solid division with the braves quietly behind the pack. The mets will not collapse. if you think they are gonna repeat that clusterf*ck then you don't know ny sports.

P O'Neil: Durbin was just the icing on the cake.

Santana=A big fat bandage that covers the fact that the Mets have done JACK S%#@ this offseason except make bad trades (Milledge) and sign catchers that end up with the Nationals. They better pray that he stops a lot of bleeding.

If there is one VERY bright spot in all of this (from and Olney article) it is the amount of money will have to pay to keep him past this year. It'll be in the range of 25-30 mill per year. It isn't crazy to think the Mets will have to shell out 150 mill at least to keep him for 6 years or so. That's a big price to pay not to mention they may be saying bye bye to Reyes and Wright (not sure if they are still arbitration or if they've been contracted, if not then look out).

ulysses:

i think we're reffereing to this:
"But at least you guys got a taste of what we'll be eating for the next SEVEN YEARS STRAIGHT!!!!

PHILLIES SUCK A*SSSSS! LOSERS!!!! HAHAHAHAHA YOU GONNA GET MOOOOWWWWEEEEEED DOOOOOOOOWWWWWN!!!!!

EVEEERYYYYYY YEAAAAAARRRRRR!!!!!"

when we talk about annoying Mets fans. Please show us the Phillies fans on this blog with similar literacy and intelligence levels, and then come talk to me...

Morty: I haven't seen anyone say that signing Feliz took the Phillies out of the Santana sweepstakes. Have you?

I think the relevance here is that Phillies management and a number of Beerleaguer posters believe that signing Feliz is how you improve your team. Other posters and other teams believe signing or trading for a Kuroda or a Santana or a Lowell is how you improve. It's just a difference of opinion.

The slap hitting Reyes is under contract, as is Wright I believe. That still does not mean that the trade might not end up being a huge mistake. If Santana does end up getting hurt or is not "Mr. Cy Young", then the Mets dealt away 4 of their 7 prospects (according to some sources) for a guy that is not what they were expecting.

In my book, the Twins are the winners in this deal considering that they would not have been able to sign Santana and have to play small money ball. The only argument that could be made is that they could have obtained more from the Sox or Yanks.

morty:i'm not saying in this blog. please, it's as annoying as me to see the jersey mets fans act like idiots at citizens bank. Actually, ef it. i'm not gonna defend this idiots haha.

tim from williamsport: We have a better chance of keeping wright then the phils have of keeping howard. I'd bet money howard is in the al as soon as he hits the market. And the mets area big market team that acts like a small market team. They are starting to dish out money and with all of the money they take in as it is, they can afford it. Thats just fact right there. The phils should seriously invest in their own network, and start acting as if they sell out some their games, which they do.

It's not the end of the world, just the beginning of the end of the world for the Phillies. We fans haven't begun the long slide down to mediocrity and dashed playoff hopes.

I wonder what the laugh from Billy Wagner was like after the reporter turned off his recorder.

Don McKee could not really be serious about the tripe he put in the paper today. Cutting Helms and Eaton to bring in Matt Morris still requires, oh, I don't know, $5 million? That's the sound of Them harrumphing at the thought of their profits being taken away.

Not a single person here will disagree with you Ulysses. When it comes to penny-pinching the Phillies front office wins everytime.

Minaya played a high-risk game of chicken--and won HUGE. Kudos to him.

The Mets leverage their advantages--great wealth and media exposure, deep roots in Latin America--as well as any team in MLB. The Phillies sign Pedro Feliz and nickel-and-dime Ryan Howard.

None of this will change until the Main Line Losers sell the team and are replaced with an ownership group more interested in winning than profits and parking privileges (Claire Betz). May that somehow please, please happen before Ruben A-Moron gets in the GM chair and reduces us to the bigger-budget Marlins.

They'll play the games, and the Mets have their weaknesses--they're still counting on a lot of older/injury-prone players in Delgado, Alou, Martinez, El Duque, and Wagner among others--but they've got the edge, and they still even have enough left in terms of prospects to make an in-season addition.

Meanwhile, Gillick sleeps.

ulysess:

Thanks for throwing in the towel on that one. Maybe there is hope for Mets fans online after all...
/ morty
Morty and Moishe Recommend...

Parker: You do know that estrada was part of the mota salary dump right? And I don't think the milledge trade was bad for the mets. They have a team right now that can make it to the world series if everyone does their job. I can say the same for the phillies if they had one more top of the rotation pitcher.

More than 1 scout commented on the fact that Santana did not have the same stuff that he had the past. Like they say that's why they play 162 games. When you put all your hopes in 1 player it is like buying just 1 stock.

This stock just happens to be called Google...

Clout: Stop being delusional, please. We never had any shot of trading for Santana, because of prospects and because of the contract. Lowell we made a HIGHER offer to than the Red Sox did, but he chose to stay in Boston. I suppose we could've signed Kuroda to a huge deal and paid him 12 million a year, but that's a lot of money to advocate spending for someone no one on this board has ever seen pitch. Unless your professional scouting career has taken you to Japan? You never did tell me why I should believe what you see in 10 games on TV regarding the Arizona defense rather than trust what the stats say, so maybe you are really a pro scout.

And stop acting as if anyone here said that getting Feliz would win us a title. I thought it would be beneath you to make up a straw man like that, but I guess nothing is below your undeserved internet arrogance. Even people who supported the Feliz acquisition said that it was, at best, a slight upgrade at 3rd base and one that improves our bench. That's all, nothing more and nothing less. If you honestly think the Front Office was choosing between Santana and Feliz, then you are a retard.

We all wish the Ownership would either start to act like a big market team or get out. I can't imagine anyone on this board, except for Sir Alden, defending this ownership and this management; it's only in your warped mind.

Jack:

Clout is typically among the sharpest of the sharp commentors here, but he sure loves him some strawmen, doesn't he?

The problem (duh) is ownership's refusal to spend the long term big bucks (150 mil to Santana) on big time pitching.

Given our lineup Feliz is a perfectly reasonable addition. Standing pat with our pitching staff is not.

Ulysses: Good point, and the Mets may or may not have ceiling i'm just saying it's going to cost a big bundle to keep all those guys but you do have a new stadium and a big fan base on your side. Must be nice to have an ownership that actually wants to win instead of just cash in.

to the unnamed commentator:

they tried to sign Lowell, offered him more money if you believe reports. Given their failure there, and given the point in the off season we are at, Feliz is a decent worst case scenario upgrade at 3B.

Making moves for proven difference making pitching like Santana, etc. requires money and/or prospects - money the team doesn't want to spend, and prospects they don't have.

All this talk about Feliz is is missing the forest for the trees...
/ Morty

I never defend the ownership.

I believe that the GM that we have
is excellent.

Just wait until we have this ownership
and Ruben Amaro as GM.

Jack: You mean Feliz isn't going to bring us a pennant? Heck you've been arguing for three days now about how much better he makes our lineup, what a good move it is etc. etc.

And you've also argued that we had no shot at adding pitching because they didn't want to come here, the ballpark, the team has a budget, we shouldn't sign Kuroda because you never saw him etc. etc. etc.

And on the bullpen, you said the team was better off using its homegrown talent than signing a veteran free agent, all of whom you said were overpriced, and Affeldt and Clement wouldn't sign here etc.

So you really have me confused. Management has basically followed everything you suggest. You've listed every excuse about why they couldn't be expected to do more. Every time I've been critical of management, you've responded by saying I'm wrong.

Yet now you say you haven't been an ass-licking, groveling defender of the front office's decisions this seaason? I'm afraid your own posts sabotage you, dear Jack.

Morty: I've been saying all off-season that not upgrading the pitching is a mistake. Nice to see, under your new name, that you agree.

New name? not me pal...

I read after the Mets sign Santana Omar is going to sign Kyle Loshe to add on to the rotation as insurance.

Actually I know all about Chris Young. And those eras are supported by an extremely low BABIP+ Petco. He is a 2 pitch, deception pitcher. I don't think he's in the discussion of Haren or Pedro as a 2. I still don't think he's that great.

First off, I gotta say this is a pretty good site, you guys really seem to know your baseball, and you obviously like yer phils. That said, i think you are looking at this all wrong-- both the mets and phils can--and should-- make the playoffs.

All three teams in the west are going to be devouring each other. Even more than mets/phils, phils/braves, mets/braves. Why? because of Fla and Wash. Also, i dont believe that the braves have the pitching.

Yes, they love thier Phills....Right now. Remember those empty stadiums when you guys were losing. Btw, Compare the mets rotation to the phillies. Enough said

Phillies are still the team to beat.

Okay, that was good for a laugh...

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