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Friday, January 11, 2008


$#!% *#!@ !*@! *!@ !**@!*@* !!**##!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is all part of a bold plan to achieve 88 wins.

I wish I could of sent in a question or two, but they would have been laced with obscenities.

Ughhhh... The good will that would be earned if they went another way after the departure of RAA is immeasurable. The chance of that happening, unfortunately, is infinitesimal.

As sad as I am to admit it, and at the risk of going back to a touchy subject, if the Mets grab Johan, I become a little more comfortable with the prospect of picking up Lohse.

The avoidance of all questions related to Eaton has me excited already for the retrospective comments from PG after he leaves. I am interested to hear what has gone on behind the scenes related to his supposed injuries, and the organizations refusal to admit its drastic mistake openly.

I was just starting to get my hopes up again based on that Chase thread too... He has already won my heart as the greatest of all time, but I suspect that is because I'm too young to have been around for Richie.

Amaro is such a Chode-Imploder, I can't stand him.

We're interest in Feliz but not Ensberg...that makes absolutely no f'n sense. I'd rather hear they're not interested in either, but of course they pick the evilier one...hell I think I just made up a word- "evilier" to describe the Phils brass.

I can understand why ?'s about aDAMN Eaton went unanswered- they don't have a fingerlicking clue!

Still talking to Boras...apparently we're the only ones, because others have gotten hip to the fact that he's an ass-hat!

With that news on Lidge, it means he pitches 30 innings tops next season...Freddy Garcia Part Deux...hell I hope not!

All that effort Jason put into doing the Utley post has been squandered away because of this Amaro post. Thanks for the effort though Weitzel!

BTW Carson... your comment before that your son's middle name is Chase struck home with me. I have been sure for sometime that my first-born will be Chase as well, and I'm curious as to whether or not a generation from now 25% of all males in Philadelphia will share the same name.

As I'm finding out, Chase is becoming a very popular name, but it's only my son's middle name. By the way look for him to be a phuture phrist round pick of the Phils as a tall power-pitching lefty...remember this name- Collier Chase.

If he's really any good then I doubt that's where we'll see him...

"I can understand why ?'s about aDAMN Eaton went unanswered- they don't have a fingerlicking clue!"

Actually, the fact that they avoided the questions probably means they DO have a clue... and are quite uncomfortable with drawing any attention towards it.

"Still talking to Boras...apparently we're the only ones, because others have gotten hip to the fact that he's an ass-hat!"

What are they supposed to do instead? Not get Boras players? Because going directly to the player doesn't really work. A-Rod was an anomaly this this off season.

Chase was on the short-list for my son's name back when he was born in 2003 (we settled on Alexander). If he was born a few years later, Chase would've been higher on the list.

I'm a fan of the team and stuff, but I would never, ever, name one of my kids after a Phillie. Unless I knew him personally and we were good friends and it had nothing to do with baseball. It's just taking being a fan too far.

Anyway, I'm happy to hear they're considering Feliz, and very unhappy to hear that they think the bullpen's improved (if they really believe that), given that

a) Lidge may well be a drop-off from Myers

b) Romero is almost certainly a drop-off from last year's Romero

c) Gordon can only get worse, and

d) Geary's innings (and Alfonseca's) are going to be eaten by Condrey, Zagurski, Youman, and some other guys who aren't as good as Geary.

I discovered this website a few weeks ago and I have to say it is a fantastic forum for Phillie Fans, except when it is invaded by Mets fans. Can someone tell me where I can find the posting of that chat (or dont they record them like espn does), I tried to find it on but had no luck? Keep up the good work

whats up dogz? I'm down wid dis team da way its set forth. Me like the addition of another middle aged pitcher who might not be completely healthy. makes perfect sense dogz. don't be playa hatin on the sidelines.

Amaro likes how the back end of the bullpen sets up. So he's fully confident that Gordon can go a full season as a playoff-caliber setup man and that Lidge will be a stud closer, even though he was anything but the past 2 years.

Well, if that's the way it plays out, hats off to Amaro. I'll have newfound respect. But if he's wrong, he should be fired.

JW - Thanks for the summary of the Amaro chat but like I said in the previous thread, he would say nothing interesting. If Amaro becomes the Phils' GM after this season (for all the wrong reasons), I guaranteed he becomes the most despised figure on the Philly sports scene in a short time.

610 WIP must be looking forward to this because they will have a new whipping boy.

So now Lidge won't be ready when pitchers and catchers report? That is over a month away yet. Talk about a red-flag issue. If Lidge goes down, this bullpen goes back to being one of the worst in the NL if not the worst.

Following up from the Utley thread, yes, SI, in one of the last two issues, did pick Chase Utley to win the MVP in 2008. From the tone, it seemed there was a bit of tongue in cheek to the prediction, but there is too much reality there and he is too good of a player for it not to be taken at least somewhat seriously. Three potential MVPs in three consecutive years, and three different players - a quite possible scenario. We're even debaitng whether Howard might outshine Utley. And J-Roll hasn't gone to sleep. Yet, the team, rather than being feared as were the late 70's/early 80's Phils, remain at the cusp of being a great team as opposed to the solid, generally competitive team they are now.

Anyway, after Friday happy hour, the more I am inclined to agree with Reed. The ownership needs to pump some money into the team NOW (or as soon as there is an opportunity to take a quantum leap rather than make a small splash in a big puddle or a big splash in a small puddle or whatever the corporate analogy was). The window is probably not opening any longer, it is more likely at the top or starting to close. If the folks in the front office don't understand and make a reasonable effort to implement this, they should realize that they are selling the players and the fans miserably short.

I full well understand we cannot compete $ for $ against say, the Yankees.
But if you are going to choose to allocate your investment dollars to a sports team, I believe you need to understand going in that there may come a time when you need to take off the green eyeshades your bean counter snapped around your head and rise to the occasion. If you don't you will be detested, and in my book, rightfully so. It isn't like owning a share of a company that makes widgets. If you can't understand this and don't want the heat, have your advisors put your $ in a hedge fund.

Enough for tonight.

Posted by: Bob | Friday, January 11, 2008 at 10:54 PM

Just reread the previous post. Sorry for the tirade, guys. But it IS Friday night, and the site IS BEERleaguer.

Posted by: Bob | Friday, January 11, 2008 at 10:58 PM

Clout, I said that we could win the wild card, not that we would. You said we couldn't. It seems that we could've... now, I did say that we could not win the division, and I was wrong, but you even conceded at some point that we weren't going to win the division. No one could've ever predicted the Mets collapse. Anyway, I certainly won't predict that we *will* win the wild card this year because there's at least a 75% chance it won't happen. Probably greater.

I know I don't want wildcard... though I suppose it is better than nothing...

Top tirade Bob. Keep ramblin' man. It made good sense to me.

Lidge's issue is his knee. I'd rather they be on the safe side so he doesn't disrupt his delivery and tweak his arm.

Rosenthal says Lohse price is three years and an option:
Rosenthal Says

I think this makes lots of sense because he eats lots of innings, rarely gets injured, can be a good swing man, has a good mentality, is a competitor and is used to pitching in hitter's parks. I'd like to have him on the team.

If Feliz is in a Phillies uniform in 2008, I'm going to have to leave the room or leave my seat at the ballpark when he bats.

It's the only thing I can think of that will keep both my mental and physical health intact.

If the Mets somehow land Santana, Lohse will become a necessity as opposed to the luxury he is today.

Anyone or thing (a bag of jelly beans?) is better than Adam Eaton on the mound every 5 days.

Freddie Garcia hate I understand and condone. Abe Nunez hate I sort of understand. But Eaton? He had one very bad year, but has shown every indication that he realizes it was a horrible year and is doing his damnedest to get better. I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt until June.

I don't hate Eaton. I just don't think he ever should have been signed. He had marginal career numbers BEFORE he was signed last offseason. He's never been anything more than a #5, so why was he given a contract that limits the org's flexibility?

Eaton is not the problem. He's just symptomatic of the way the Phillies have operated since current ownership bought the team.

If the Phils sign Feliz, I will throw up in my mouth than swallow...I know that's disgusting, but that's how I would feel. Feliz is like a bulked up No-Hit offensively just like him, but can bop the occasional homerun. And you all know how much I hate Nuni.

Tray said- "I'm a fan of the team and stuff, but I would never, ever, name one of my kids after a Phillie. Unless I knew him personally and we were good friends and it had nothing to do with baseball. It's just taking being a fan too far."

Tray, there is no such thing as taking being a fan too far, I readily admit I'm obsessed, I think the Phils may literally run through my veins.

3 year 12 mil for Kyle Lohse has BIG-ASS MISTAKE written all over it, and therefore that's why talking to Boras is bad form!

DT- That's funny, last year he didn't seem to be trying his hardest to get better, he didn't even seem to know how HE could possibly be ptching that bad.

DOB - exactly. Eaton would get bombed and act like he pitched well. Mitch Williams would say every outing that he thought the problem was obvious, he wasn't coming over the top enough and it should be correctable unless he was injured. I get the feeling that Eaton isn't big about conditioning, etc. Hopefully, we'll see a difference.

As for Lohse, 3 years at Eaton's salary with incentives and an option for the 4th year is fine with me. We don't deplete our farm system or have to give up a high pick. He'll be the number 3 starter on this team. You don't believe me? Tell me how long it has been since we had our # 3 starter pitch 180-200 innings a year with a 4.65 ERA (Lohse career). If Kendrick repeats 2007, then Lohse is number #4 this year. Plus, we'll need to replace Moyer after this year anyway.

Lohse at this price would be fine for me. We desprately need a #3 and he is the best one available. No more than 3 years though.

Sorry I forgot to introduce myself. I have only posted a couple of times but have been reading every day at work since the summer. Great blog.

Tray: You're rewriting history. Go back and look. You said that IF the Phillies made it to the playoffs, it would be as Wild Card. I said that if the Phillies made it, it would be as division champs. You were wrong, I was right. Neither of us predicted the Mets collpase because this discussion was many weeks before.

And, I repeat, would you like to take that side of the debate again this season? I think the Phils, if they make it, will be as division champs. They will not win the Wild Card. Of course if they sign your man Feliz, they won't make it at all.

AWH is 100% correct in saying that Eaton was a bad signing. I recall posting here the day the signing was announced that Eaton was near the bottom of all major league pitchers in IP per start. I, for one, was unimpressed.

Having said that, the Eaton signing wasn't nearly as bad as the Garcia trade. Not only did that jack up the payroll, it cost the team one of their best prospects. All because the Phils didn't do their homework on his health. I'm going to speculate that Eaton's health wasn't 100% last year either, frankly. If it turns out that Lidge isn't 100%, then we'll have the Triple Crown of incompetence.

By the way, if Lidge isn't ready to go, the Phils MUST return Myers to the pen and sign Lohse or deal for another starter. Gordon as closer and Madson as setup would be a sick joke.

Are people that uninformed on Feliz. What do you mean he doesn't hit? He hits, he doesn't walk. Big difference. What is so wrong with a 3B that can field with the best of them and produce 35 doubles and 25 HR? That is a guy who can't hit?

#1: No NL East will be a wild card team in 2008. (You can quote me on that next January if I'm wrong.) That includes the Phillies. If the Phils fail to win the division, they will fail to make the play-offs. The NL West is simply too strong and too balanced (you except for the jints).

#2: Ruben Amaro Jr. cannot possibly like his job. I feel bad for the guy. (Sort of - you know, except when he dribbles publicity goo all over us.)

#3: Lohse looks better all the time. (What an awful admission - that a 4.65 ERA looks good.) Of course his willingness, and ability, to pitch relief on his side days was a bonus. If he was able to do that occasionally in 2008 it would save us from dreck like Youman, Condrey and Vic You-know-who.

#4 I'm in a pile on Eaton mood, too. The problem wasn't so much that he had a bad year, though he did - even by his abysmal standards. The problem was that he didn't even have a clue that he was doing poorly. It was almost like he was convinced that, because he was getting credited with wins (backed by the best offense in the league) it was okay to give up 6 earned runs per nine innings. (Incidently, if you're reading this, Adam, it's NOT OKAY to give up 6 per 9; just wanna be clear).

#5 Hell Yeah Homies needs to make return trips frequently throughout the season. I think with our rotation and bullpen, he'll have a lot to offer to our conversation.

PhillyRocks: Please look at his OPS+, the best measure of a player's offense. It was the worst in the NL among thirdbasemen with 400 PAs. I'm baffled by your fantasy that he hit 35 doubles and 25 HRs. He actually hit 28 doubles and 20 HRs. And it took him 557 ABs to do that. His SLG of .418 was worse than every thirdbaseman in the league except for the injured Scott Rolen and the horrible Jose Bautista

At age 33 it's unlikely those numbers will get much better even at CBP. The man is an absolute out machine with a fair number of GIDPs sprinkled in.

Here's some career OPS+ stats worth comparing among available thirdbasemen: Ensberg (age 31) 116, Koskie (age 34) 113, McPherson (age 27) 96, Helms (age 32) 96, Crede (age 30) 92, Dobbs (age 28) 87, Feliz (age 33) 84.

Unless you're under the misguided impression that the thirdbaseman at CBP saves lots of runs with Rollins playing alongside him, and will save more runs with his glove than he creates with his bat, Feliz makes no sense.

I wonder if he was wearing his sweater for the interview.

I see that Miguel Negron did not sign with the Phillies after all. He signed with the White Sox and was invited to Spring Training.

The question is: Where is RSB lately?

Jason, I think the Blues must have gotten ahold of Rick Shue.

Either that or he's on one hell of a long holiday.

Andy, you are to focused at looking at 1 year and only last year on a Giants bad and old lineup. Did you miss the 33, 30, 35 the 3 years before? The 20, 22, 20, 22 HR in his previous years?

And no, OPS is not the say all to end all. Its the possible 150 hits, the possible 25 HR and the possible 100 RBI is what matters. You do understand the better hitters you have in your lineup compared to the less hitteres in the lineup will provide more runs. You are putting Feliz in a lineup that scored the 2nd less runs in all of baseball and putting him in a lineup with the 2nd mose runs scored.

How do you actually know what he will do when you have more runners on base with the Phils and no runners on base like the Giants?

For a guy who has the Lowest OPS as you say, although Dobbs and Nunez are even lower and Helms is slightly higher, he still managed to put up the 12 most RBI among 3B in MLB. On the worst offense in baseball.

If you are trying to sell me that Helms and Dobbs are better then Feliz as a 3B, your nuts.

I wonder if the phillies are trying to see who will blink first with Lohse's contract demands, so they can get him at the lowest price possible for the fewest years.

Andy, for me it's not about piling on Eaton. Eaton is what he is. He was, IMO, never worth the contract he got.

The Phillies did it because he was the either 1) the cheapest alternative, or 2)Arbuckle (who drafted him) convinced Gillick that Eaton was "salvageable" despite his having a below average ERA+ number both for his career, and for the five straight years prior to that.

Never mind his health, his career numbers didn't justify the signing, as clout pointed out above.

Now, if it was done for reason #1, then management made a big mistake in not looking at players like Meche and Lilly (more expensive) who had at least been healthy in '06.

If it was for reason #2, it really makes one question the collective judgement of the organization. There is nothing in their track record to suggest they are capable of successfully engaging in reclamation projects for pitchers.

Both reasons demonstrate a level hubris that is unhealthy.

If it was reason #1, then they were trying to outsmart the competition by getting Eaton at a lower price, thinking they got just as good a pitcher for less money. ("Boy, aren't we smart!"). They outsmarted themselves.

If it was reason #2, I would ask them what suggested to them they were better qualified and able to get more out of Eaton than the Pads and Rangers had the previous 5 years.

I suspect with all the "yes men" in the organization, the true self-examination required to correct such hubris doesn't take place.

PhillyRocks: Feliz's career average is an anemic .252. He neither walks nor hits.

His power numbers are an artifact of his inability to walk. Anyone with any power at all will hit 20 homeruns & 30 doubles if he refuses to ever take a walk. That's why slugging pct. is the best indicator of power. Feliz's career slugging pct. is a very ordinary .433. That is hardly enough to justify all the outs that he makes at the plate.

And, for the 100th time, where do we get this idea that Feliz is Brooks Robinson? The Giants used him at first base & in LF until last year &, when they did finally move him to third base, it was with great reluctance.

Oh, did I forget to mention their scouts? You know, the people who told them that Eaton was a better value than as Meche or Lilly, and maybe just as good?

PhillyRocks: The platoon of Helms and Dobbs produced more offense last season than Feliz did. And that was with Helms having a career bad year. The gap will be wider this season.

And your'e wrong about Dobbs OPS+ being worse than Feliz. It isn't.

Finally, you're also wrong about Feliz ranking 12th in RBI in MLB. In fact, he ranked 14th. And, RBI being a product partly of how many ABs you have, with the exception of Wigginton and Bautista, the others had far fewer ABs.

Looks like Rolen is headed out of the NL.

Where is the revisionist history on Eaton coming? As I recall last season, I would recall Eaton's attitude at best as indifferent. I am know that it gets hard to answer the same questions about poor performance but I don't remember one occasion last season where Eaton flat out took responsibility for a loss with one of his pathetic performances. Contrast that to Moyer who usually is pretty frank about his pitching performances.

If the Phils were truly serious about contending this season, they would resign Lohse and be willing to write off Eaton as a sunk cost. I just don't see that happening though unless the Mets acquire Santana.

AWH: I like the Glaus for Rolen trade. I'm convinced Rolen will rebound and be much improved. I was worried about the Brewers getting him but now that they signed Cameron, Braun will move to Left, Hall will move to 3rd. Hall is no Rolen (11 errors in a total of 84 games/ 602 innings played).

In other words, Rolen in the AL will be welcome and the Brewers with weak fielding at the corners is still welcome. Plus a drug free Cameron doesn't scare me at all.

Clout: I think I'll take that bet. I think the Phils will be playoff bound again. Just want to be sure of the rules. If Phils win division but their record is still as good or better than wild card, do I still win. My understanding is you think that the Phills may win division but have a worse record than the wild card winner.

Here is my thinking Atlanta, Washington and Florida are all weaker teams than the Rockies, Dodgers, Padres and D-Backs. We'll likely win more games against our own division teams, while the west will beat each other up and split lots of games. Of course we could lose more head-to-head games with the west.

So here is my bet if Phils make playoffs, we'll go to a playoff game, I'll pay for your ticket, food and beer/soda. If you are right, you pay for your ticket and the food & drinks, I'll still pay for my ticket. If the Phils don't make it but the East champ has a worse record than the wild card winner, you win but you don't win anything.

Lohse like any commodity would be a good acquistion at 1 million per year and a bad one at 50 million per year.

Knowing what happened with Eaton, and reviewing the marketplace what would be your final offer to Lohse.

If I was the GM it would be 3 years at 10 million, with a club option for year 4.

What would others think is a correct offer from our GM ?

breaking: rolen traded for gluas (mlb tr)

I still think that is High, when MVP Jimmy Rollins is making 7 mil, and Chase Utley is making 7.5 mil this year.

OPM "Other Peoples Money" is what it is called.

What do people think would be the right offer to Lohse?

You are also wrong in your evident assumption that clout and I are the same person. I am not sure that either one of us is complimented by your conflation.

That being said - Feliz is not a good hitter. He swings at virtually everything, whether in the strike zone or not, and rarely gets on base. He is Russell Branyan with about 2/3 (or less) of the power, except that Branyan knew how to take a walk.

AWH - I'm sorry if it seems I was knocking you about Eaton. I agree it was a bad deal to start with. It became, for me, more aggregious (did I spell that right?) when he kept making statements in ST that ST is just ST and he'd be fine in the season; then, in the season making statements like these guys shouldn't be hitting his stuff. In other words, the stuff he said made the deal seem even worse than it was.

Slocs, do you really want to sit beside clout for 3 1/2 hours?

The Bedard rumors have Baltimore trying to "dump" Mora as part of the trade. I know the Phils aren't likely to do a big trade but I would argue that Mora would actually be an upgrade for the Phils because they could trade Helms.

Forget Bedard for a moment. I still think the Phils might be able to get pitching from the O's if they are willing to take Mora. Why not target Walker, a solid lefty reliever or Guthrie a 28 year old starter.

BTW where can I find the breakdown between flyous, ground out and strikeouts

Andy: why not, he's a Phils fan, I'm a Phils fan, it is a playoff game. I enjoy going to games with informed Phils and baseball fans. I'm sure it will be a blast if the Phils can hit in the clutch this time.

Rosenthal also reporting Phils interest in Feliz.

Price for Lohse?
I think $7-$10 mill/year for 3 years with an option for 4th year,Because of following:

  • he could be the piece that pushes us over the top

  • doesn't get injured

  • we don't lose picks or prospects

  • He is flexible

  • he can easily fill Moyers spot next year

  • Having 3 pitchers that can routinely go 6 innings and two that will routinely go 7 or 8, will make our bullpen stronger and more rested.

  • a Lohse signing has less risk than many others because you know what you are getting with him, aren't expecting him to win 18, bounce back from injury or do something he hasn't done before
  • Is it fair to Howard, Hamels, Rollins, Utley, etc.? Who cares, they are all millionaires and they want to win and understand how baseball works, what starters are getting.

    Andy: re Eaton. Agree 100%. The exact reasons why he pissed me off so much. But you forget Wheels constantly stating what a great athlete he is. It harkens to 5 tool guys who can't hit a AAA curve or great players that play stupid.

    PhillyRocks- no offense, but you must be a retard, a retard that can type and navigate the Interent, but a retard nonetheless if you think Feliz is good offensively besides not being able to take a walk. I hate that Dobbs/Helms is our 3rd base situation next season, but if Feliz were signed that would actually make the situation worse.

    I have my opening day tickets! Perfect seats behind first base. At Jingu. Yakult Swallows vs Tokyo Giants. Will be nice to see tokyo again (I live in the UK most of the time).


    Stupid US tax law means that I need to be out of the USA for 330 days out of the year, which is the major impediment to my MLB watching (unless I go to toronto, but, well, there's no point) otherwise I take a hit of about $45k in taxes. I wish the USA would just grow up and normalize its tax laws with the rest of the world so that i could watch some phillies.

    Slocs: go away.

    nice picture of amaro

    I want Lohse back for three years. Four years, no.

    Not sure what the point of the Glaus/Rolen deal was.

    As for Feliz, no, he is not a good hitter, but in fairness to him, we should point out that his low RBI numbers are largely a function of how bad everyone hitting ahead of him was, and that the Giants' reluctance to move him to third base doesn't mean anything, because they're a dumb organization and just wanted to stick with marginal vets like Edgardo Alfonzo. All the numbers say that defensively he's great.

    And clout, you've chosen to forget it, but you yourself at one point conceded that if the Phillies made the playoffs, it would be as the wild card. I don't have time to hunt down the exact post, obviously, but you said it.

    Tray - Agreed. Rolen/Glaus trade is really perplexing. Guess both teams thought each player really needed a change of scenery. Kind of like I will take your high-priced, discontented (underperforming) player for mine.

    MG - That's exactly how I heard it. Each team was looking for a way to unload its 3B but get value in return. They each pretty much pulled it off. Whether it will be a deal for either will depend on performance and injuries.

    Slocs - Guthrie could be interesting. My questions would be:
    1) Should we expect his numbers from AAA in 2005-6 and MLB in 2007 (ooorah!); or the rest of his career (bleccch!)?

    2) What would they expect in return, since they have to replace one of their SPs somehow?

    3) Does Mora have anything left in his tank?

    But, of course, Ruben is pretty satisfied that they have what they need for 2008 already on the roster. So even Guthrie is a pipe dream.

    Kotsay deal sums up exactly the difference between the Braves and the Phils. The Braves know they have a huge hole in CF right now and trying to do something about it (by acquiring a player who will be a very solid option if healthy). Contrast this to the Phils who refuse to do anything about 3B this offseason.

    if you want the 2007 breakdown for a particular pitcher, they list it in the splits statistics on I'm not sure whether that's what you wanted, though. Did you mean for hitters or pitchers? Last season or career? (Actually, might show all of those. I'll go check.)

    Okay, I'm back. Slocs, go to, do a "player search", hit Career stats, then "Next Stats", and all that stuff will be there. Good hunting!

    Second thought - Kotsay really hasn't put up decent number since '05 but I think everyone gets the point. Braves and Mets continually try to tinker to upgrade their team this offseason while the Phils sit on their hands.

    Tray: You are partly correct. In early September I gave up on them winning the division. At no point did I say I thought they'd win the Wild Card. Frankly, I didn't think they'd make it at all.

    Slocs: Just to be perfectly clear, I am saying the Phillies will NOT, repeat NOT, win the Wild Card. I do think they can win the division.

    MG -
    I do agree that the Phils have continued to sit on their hands relative to their pitching needs.

    But I like the pick-up of Jenkins (and subsequent move of Vic to CF) over the pick-up of Kotsay by a long shot.

    Still, it would be good to have someone of quality to pitch the eighth inning, whether Patty and Rube think we need it or not.

    Andy: Mora's OPS+ at 98 in susbtantially better than the wretched Feliz and the dropoff defensively is small because Feliz is not the gold glover that some of the posters here think he is. Furthermore, if the Phils agreed to take on his full contract I think the O's would deal him for a fringe prospect.

    The problem is that his contract has 2 years and $17.3M remaining on it and Mora turns 36 next month. A cheap-assed ownership would never take on such a contract, especially at that age. Also, Mora has a FULL NO-TRADE CONTRACT, which he'd have to waive.

    MG: I think Kotsay is a bit of insurance here. They think Josh Anderson will start in CF and Brandon Jones (in platoon with Diaz) in LF. Both are very good prospects, but any prospect is a gamble. Kotsay, if he's healthy, steps in when one or both fail. There's a major question about Kotsay's health, though. He was horrendous last year after returning from major back surgery.

    Eaton should be fielding grounders at 3rd. He's no worse at the plate than Helms.
    Amaro is so full of crap that he sounds like a politician.

    My theory on Eaton is he was hurt all last year and lying about it, both to management and the media.

    Tell me how long it has been since we had our # 3 starter pitch 180-200 innings a year with a 4.65 ERA (Lohse career).


    but as I recall, we traded that particular starter, along with a pretty good outfielder, for some minor leaguers. not sure if any of them have panned out; I'll have to get back to you.

    Injury can't explain away many of the problems I saw from Eaton, including chronic meltdowns in the first frame and losing hitters after getting ahead in the count. Eaton was in the 90s with his fastball, wasn't he?

    Maybe he was hurt - I don't know. Mitch Williams seemed to think so. He went on the DL late in the year and had an MRI after the season. And their pursuit of Wolf, Kuroda, others suggests that he's hurt.

    To me, poor command, especially with the breaking ball, and the mental part led to his undoing. He's a hittable pitcher, too, especially in this park. When he hangs em, they will crush him.

    DickieThon: I should go away? I have never posted to you so not sure why you would say that to me? However, I think you should quit posting about the US tax system and your tax bracket on a baseball blog - no place for that here.

    Clout - some comments...
    1. So do we have a bet? I liked my bet cause if Phils make playoffs, we go to a playoff game (ie we both win!), if they don't go... well then...
    2. RE Mora, my point is the Phils could get creative... by accepting his conract and giving the Orioles not too much, we can get Pitching.
    3. Sure hope you are right about Eaton but he didn't do anything to get healthy accept rest, kinda like Gordon.

    AE- I was too lazy to look. What I should have said was to have 4 pitchers go 180 innings and the third best had an era of 4.65. With Lohse, I think we have a shot at all 5 going at least 160. Imagine the confidence the team would have knowing it can win every night, they had it the last few years after obtaining pieces (Urbina, Moyer and Lohse).

    Now if our closer struggles or we have no set-up guy it is a different matter. In 2005, Worrell had a meltdown and we had no set-up guy until Urbina. But we won 88 games that year.

    You can't blame the phillies for missing out on wolf, but it'd sure be nice if we'd have signed him given what we're looking at.

    Eaton's mechanics did not look good last year. Whether that was caused by problems mental, physical, or both, would be speculative.

    A few times i saw him pitch last season, he looked like he was throwing a boomerang, not a baseball.

    I'd rather have So Taguchi than Mark Kotsay at their points in their careers right now.

    From MLBTR about Benson- The Phils may send people to watch Kris Benson throw next week. I believe this would be the second time they've observed him, so maybe it's getting serious.

    Great site here guys. I just started reading it a few weeks ago and this is my first post. Lohse is sounding great at this point and we all know that we can expect some injuries so there is nothing wrong with going in with too much pitching.

    The Lidge comment seems something to be concerned about. If he gets injured that will create a lot of problems.

    As far as Feliz goes, if we can get him at a good price for a year I'd give him a try just for defense. Last I heard he was asking 3 which I wouldn't touch. Nunez saved a lot of runs last year especially with Moyer and Kendrick pitching and putting all those balls in play. Then whatever power you get out of him is a bonus. We have enough good hitting to carry some defense. Dobbs moves back to the bench where he can be used as a pinch hitter and hopefully they can still ship Helms to Florida.

    For everyone who says that they didn't trade to upgrade 3B, remember they made a run at Lowell.

    phillies not win anything this year no better then last year maybe 3rd or forth place,,,phila team s are cheap they give the fans nothing zerothe gm and amaro suck

    how can a team win with 2nd and 3rd string players,,,,plus over the hill bull pen when the rest of the teams in your division are up grading there team,,,phillies front office sucks ,,,as long as they put money in there pockets they are happy but srcrew the fans

    Tim- shut up!!

    Unless the Mets land a front line starter, they've gotten worse this offseason.

    The Braves lost Renteria and Andruw. Sure Glavine is nice to have, but he's not the pitcher he used to be.

    The Phils didn't make any earth shattering acquisitions either, but they're still solid.

    Slocs: OK, this is the bet: If the Phils make the playoffs as WC, you win. If they make it as division champ, I win.

    Re: Mora, I'm not sure what you mean by "we could get pitching." My point was that a cheap-assed ownership would NEVER take on Mora's contract.

    to all of you that want to jump on me and my opinion.

    You don't get it. Yes, I understand he is a free swinger. But he also connects with the ball. The only problem is that he doesn't take walks. That is your only argument.

    Here is the part you don't get. He doesn't have to provide all of the offense on this team. You don't know that he had and BA of .310, an obp of .357, a ops of .915 with RISP. It isn't important because you know it all.

    But I am a retart and don't know what he does. I don't know the differense between playing in the Phils lineup compared to the Giants lineup. Where do you think he is going to get more chances to hit with RISP?

    Jason: The thing about injuries is sometimes it saps your speed and sometimes it saps your command because the pain causes you to move your arm slot a little. You're right about Eaton throwing in the 90s. Command has always been his weakness and last season it was worse than ever. When that happens with a veteran pitcher, it's often because he's altering his delivery slightly to reduce the pain. Rich Dubee should get some video of Eaton from 2005, when he was pretty good, and compare his delivery then and now and spot the difference.

    Doesn't clutch hitting count for anything?

    PhillyRocks: As has been mentioned on here innumerable times, there's no more meaningless stat than RISP. It varies wildly from year to year. Feliz career OPS with RISP is .735 (.251 BA), which is sub-mediocre.

    Also, it's not so much his lack of walks. There are a lot of good hitters who don't walk. What makes Feliz awful is the % of OUTS he makes per plate appearance and his weak SLG. The man is a human out machine and lacks enough extra base hits to offset that.

    Travis: "Nunez saved a lot of runs last year especially with Moyer and Kendrick pitching."

    Exactly how many runs did Nunez save last year?

    ae: As Andy would say, "Oh, you mean the Monasterios trade." LOL

    clout - until Monasterios is released; then it's the Sanchez trade.

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    EST. 2005

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