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Wednesday, December 05, 2007


Too bad. I guess the risk of conviction was high. The Phillies are not risk takers. Case closed. Bye-bye Julio.

Can't really picture Mateo being that much better than Condrey at CBP anyway.

I have to say.. These meetings are a total letdown.. not just from the Phils perspective, but other than Cabrera, the trades and signings have been absolute yawners. More bulls**t than anything else.The Twins are simply pimping Santana so they can trade him at the deadline. Jason Bay,Bedard,and others were used to see what's out there..Don't know if many (or any) of the remaining GMs have the balls to pull the trigger on HALF the "juicy" deals that have been tossed out there. As a fan, again I fall for it and go along for the ride. My bad..:)

Wasn't Mateo on the 40 man roster? If so this opens a player to be added, so maybe something in the works going on.

Or maybe their gonna protect Segovia.

Looks like Iguchi is about to be offered a two-year deal with an option from the Brewers.

Where did you get that Brewer's rumor? Does that mean they are moving Weeks? Or Braun to OF?

Braun to LF.
It's on MLBTR.

@Rob - The GMs, even Brian Cashman, are all working with payroll in mind. All the blue chip players we heard this week are asking for guaranteed money that busts payroll. No wonder they are upset with the Royals and Jose Guillen. That move right there just increased every FA outfielder's price by 20%.

But you're right about Santana. The Mets "getting back into it?" Come on... only because the Twins want them to!

There are now 38 spots on the 40 man roster.

Mets send Jose Reyes, Kevin Mulvey, and Hector Pellot to A's
"A's send Bobby Crosby and Dan Johnson to Mets
A's send Dan Haren to Twins
Twins send Johan Santana to Mets

Mets get Johan Santana, Bobby Crosby and Dan Johnson
A's get Jose Reyes and Kevin Mulvey
Twins get Dan Haren and Hector Pellot"

This is from MLBTR

Ok Phans~

Phils have increased their offer to Kuroda, are looking at Hank Blalock and (gulp)Mike Cameron. May also try to get Bedard. Gillick said today he would include a top pitching prospect in the right deal. Talked to my source an hor ago. Yes Meteo was released to create a roster spot.

If the Mets get Santana, it's all moot anyway.

Frankly, I would want more than Dan Haren and Hector Pellot for Santana. But that's just me...

But the Twins can mange Haren's contract...

If the Mets get Santana but have to give up Reyes to do so, I think the team gets weaker, not stronger.

"The Twins are simply pimping Santana so they can trade him at the deadline."

Except that Santana has reportedly told the Twins he will not waive his no-trade clause mid-season.

The problem w/the rumor mill is it all goes through the Yankees/Bosox filter known as ESPN. If it weren't for Jayson Stark, we'd probably never hear the Phillies mentioned at all.

You'd be assuming that the Mets would just leave that giant hole at SS. They'd still have Gomez and the pitchers they can dangle.

Yup. Got that part of it. But in 2 years, they'll have to be dealing Haren, too. If I were them I think I'd want another prospect. Didn't the Yanks offer Hughes, Cabrera and a prospect? Is Haren for two years better than Hughes for, what, 4?

I don't know. It sounds like the Twins don't value in that trade. (And the rumor says they initiated it.)

The Phillies are out of their league at the Winter Meetings. They just do not have the talent to compete with most teams. They are also too cheap. Look out 3rd place 2008 or 2009 for sure

Actually without Reyes on Mets and getting Crosby and Santana, I think the Mets will not be as good. Reyes won more games for them than Santana will. Its Like us giving up rollins for Santana and I am sure Phils would be worse off. Crosby is not much of a hitter if hes gonna be their shortstop. If Mets have a prospect at shortstop then maybe deal would be worth it for Mets.

Bedrosian's Beard
The Mets may play Crosby at SS, which is a downgrade. Can they fully replace Reyes in trades with Gomez? Who's available that comes close? And a SS is out there everyday. Johann pitches every 5.

Of course,I do think that it makes them better, just not superhumanly better.

"Phils have increased their offer to Kuroda, ... May also try to get Bedard."

patrone - you're indicating that they may try to swing two starting pitchers??

Andy: Why post a rumor that is so obviously bogus? The Twins would never do that deal. It's not even half the value they've already been offered by the Red Sox.

DPatrone, with your news that the Phils are looking at Blalock is just more evidence that 3B is a BIG prority for PG regardless of what he says. I still think Helms for Farnsworth and CASH is agreed to. Getting a third bagger gets you bullpen muscle and sends Dobbs to right to platoon with Werth.

Andy, I agree. The yanks offered Hughes and Melky, which, as a package, tops Haren and Pellot, IMO.

Should this trade between Minnesota, Oakland, and the Muts go down (which sounds bogus to begin with), I wouldn't be surprised if the Mets targeted Miguel Tejada to play SS for them for next year.

that three-way deal is pretty much rigoddamndiculous.

If the Mets were EVER to trade Reyes, there would need to be a great reason, as he is a gamechanger and locked-up longterm.
Possibilities? His power stroke that he flashed late in 2006 that disappeared in 2007 is not a power stroke at all; Willie/Omar/Braintrust on Flushing take his dip in production/lack of maturity down the stretch as foreshadowing rather than an aberration; they ultimately realize that their staff is an abomination and feel they can find SS help cheaply

@Andy...two pitchers implies KK is gone in a package with least we've been seeing/speculating that today.

Andy: Two starting pitchers allows us to put Myers back at closer with Lidge setting him up.

However, we're not getting two starting pitchers... I'm just hoping we get one quality one somewhere.

If the Mets were EVER to trade Reyes, there would need to be a great reason, as he is a gamechanger and locked-up longterm.
Possibilities? His power stroke that he flashed late in 2006 that disappeared in 2007 is not a power stroke at all; Willie/Omar/Braintrust on Flushing take his dip in production/lack of maturity down the stretch as foreshadowing rather than an aberration; they ultimately realize that their staff is an abomination and feel they can find SS help cheaply

NY media is frantic now that they're realizing that it's very possible that the Mets will leave winter meetings netting a total of Church/Schneider/Hernandez or something equally unimpressive. as a result, they're floating spectacularly unlikely trades to get the buzz going. that trade doesn't even go down in a video game.

maybe the most absurd part of the "rumor" is that the Twins supposedly initiated discussions, even though they're the ones getting hosed in the deal.

Given that the Santana to Mets rumor was started by a NY media sports reporter, and Boston is on hold with Lester's medical records, this has all the marks of "creative reporting."

Amazing how one season can change things for some players, though. This time last year Reyes was absolutely untouchable (then again, so was Millege).

1) clout - It was a headliner at MLBTR; I figured it would come up here anyway. Makes me feel better to hear us debunk it.

2) I was just asking if DPatrone was saying that Gillick is seriously going to look for two starting pitchers. At this point, it hasn't seemed like he's really even trying for one.

3) Bedard, Myers, Hamels, Kuroda, Moyer (or even Eaton) makes us a whole lot better. Especially with Blalock. Even with Cameron.

As bad as Helms was last year, how much better was Blalock? Okay, a lot, if you ignore the fact that he missed 104 games. In 2005 and 2006 he posted OPS's of .751 and .726 respectively. In all likelihood he'd be an improvement over Helms, but I'm not totally ready to write Helms off as a major-league hitter or say that Blalock's returned to his All-Star form for good. As for whether Jose Reyes or Johan Santana is more valuable to the Mets, given that Crosby would be replacing Reyes and Santana would be replacing some 5th starter black hole, it's hard to say. I'm somewhat inclined to think it makes them a tad better.

From MLBTR's comments:

"UPDATE, 12-5-07 at 7:12pm: An undisclosed source within Minnesota's front office reportedly says no talks have been discussed about a 3 way deal."

Another poster said it's probably the NY writer's way of raising the price for the Sox without getting the Yanks directly involved. I could actually see that.

Honestly, this isn't happening. The Mets actually need to improve their offense as well. And Crosby? Not so much.

That 3-way deal is not a good deal for the Mets, despite potentially getting Santana.
He's going to lose a lot of 2-1 and 3-2 games for them.

December 5, 2007
The Mill
Winter Meetings, Day Three

Baseball Prospectus

3:30 p.m. ET: A Minnesota official said Wednesday that he is "99 percent sure" that left-hander Johan Santana will still be a Twin when the meetings end Thursday. The Twins still figure to deal Santana sometime before spring training, though it now seems no longer a complete lock that he will be traded to the Red Sox or the Yankees.

How could a comment be posted at 7:12 pm, yet it is only 5:15 EST????????

Oh, and
4) I do not believe we will get Bedard or Kuroda and probably not Blalock.

5) We may, unfortunately, end up with Cameron and all his Ks. (But at least we won't have to give up some dudes for him.)

Latest MLB rumors METS SAntana --Pelfy,Gomez others no reyes. Dogers Gooch or Glaus Also Frontrunners for Bedard --Kemp,Broxton and Kershaw. NO mention of Phils. Angels--Tejada.Hope all the stars are gone soon so the Phils can pick up the left overs.

Mike - I would believe that's a time zone differential in play there. Or a paradox. Who cares - bottom line is this trade isn't happening.

Andy: Yeah, but some dudes might get less playing tim if we get Cameron and they won't be happy. Some dudes might start demanding a trade.

I think that any talk of trading away one of the Mets' faces of the franchise for a pitcher to start every 5th day has to be bogus. They're opening up a new stadium (i.e. need to sell seats), coming off of a disappointing year and have a TV network to support. While Santana is obviously the coveted piece of trade talks this off-season, he DOES only pitch every 5th day.

CJ - I bet the Mets could swing that Santana deal if they had Some Dudes.

jr - I don't think any of what you wrote was a proper sentence.

Malcolm, let's not criticize anyone's grammer until we have a fundamental understanding of time zones. If it's 5:15 EST, it would have to be somewhere in the Atlantic Ocean for the post to have been made at 7:12PM.

Just messin' with ya.

Easy now, boys and girls.

Some Dudes turn out to be pretty good players.
Some Dudes don't.
Some Dudes eat roast beef.
Some Dudes eat none.
Some Dudes get traded to the Phillies and clog up the farm system.
Some Dudes don't, and get traded to other teams and wind up superstars.

Those other teams know how to scout Some Dudes.

JR: If the Dodgers are actually dangling Kemp, Broxton AND Kershaw for Bedard the Orioles would have to take that deal. Kershaw is among the top 2-3 pitching prospects in the game, Kemp is one of the best young outfield prospects in the game, and Broxton is already a very, very good young reliever. I can't believe that offer is still sitting there- which means I don't believe that is the actual offer. Also, that post was almost incoherent.

Some dudes hit their wives and retain their status as a key contributing member of a competitive team.

Some dudes hit their wives and get traded to said competitive team, only to be banished to AA and later sent packing.

The lesson? There's only enough room on a compeititve team for one alleged wife-hitter. Don't be that second guy.

Also, Reyes still IS untouchable. That 3-team offer was completely bogus.

Actually ... yeah, that's just the poster's fault. Considering he posted the thing at 4:01, it would have to be a 3:12 update, and 4 hours from 3:12 means he's in the time zone next to Greenwich, which has absolutely no land in its zone.

So yeah, the poster's an idiot. But I still think the deal is rubbish.

Never understood to move to acquire Mateo in the first place except he fit the Phils profile of a cheap acquistion (plus, he was a former Gillick player).

Glad though to see the Phils are addressing their pitching situation:

- Acquired: Lidge, Youmans (next season's Yoel Hernandez maybe?)

- Departures: Geary, Mateo, Lohse

I am sure that it is just part of Gillick's master plan though.

I am still baffled by the some of the media coverage of the Tigers-Marlins trade. They are acting like the Marlins are a small-market team (which is the same BS the Phils tried to pull in the mid 90s) and how they aren't being helped by revenue sharing enough.

Excuse me? Jeffrey Loria (who arguably is the most despicable owner in baseball) has been winding, complaining, and threatening to move the Marlins if the public (Dade County or the State of Florida) refuse to build him a new baseball-only stadium predominantly with taxpayer funds. In the interim, Loria is pocketing millions a year in profit by skimping on his payroll and collecting huge subsidies through revenue sharing.

What a shame. It would be nice if the media weren't so lazy at times.

MG, you mean to tell me that the central plotline to Major League (the movie) is occurring right before our eyes?? Fantastic!!

There can't be an attendance clause keeping them there, though, as I've sat in Dolphins Stadium (for a game against the Phils) where, not even joking, the official attendance was 11,000.

My bad. I was mistaken. The game I saw at Dolphins Stadium actually only drew 6652.

The funny thing about the Major League plot is they WANTED to move the team to Florida.

Also, just about this proposed trade that isn't proposed, here's what the 2007 Mets lineup would look like:

2B - Castillo
SS - Crosby
3B - Wright
CF - Beltran
1B - Delgado
LF - Alou
RF - Church
C - Schneider

And Gomez on the bench or in a platoon or something with Church. Yikes. Tell me that lineup is good for 3.5 runs per game?


I think my source meant Gillick will try to get 1 quality starter. I'm just relaying what I was told. My source is hearing a lot of things. In my opinion, while Gillick has a lot of irons in the fire, don't expect much. He knows what he needs but will be unable to get it. My source feels that they will do something. I disagree.

Not exactly Murderer's Row. They'd need Alou to play above his average and Wright/Reyes to grow up pretty quickly if they wanted to contend.

Seeing Schneider in the lineup is actually even more laughable than I thought it would be when they traded away their future for him. I guess they're building their team around defense and throwing out runners??? That's the only explanation. Is Steve Avery and his wicked pick off move available?

ESPN is reporting Jose Guillen faces a steriods suspension... could be 50 games. Great signing by Kansas City in that case.


Do you trust your source or what?

DPatrone, you're a miserable guy, and that's coming from a miserable guy.

Preacher - your Myers/Mateo commentary is dead on. What unbelievable hypocrisy and ignorance. No one in any paper will chart out exactly how Mateo went from someone acquired at the trading deadline to someone who was never called up to the majors and subsequently dumped, but it would make for a revelatory glimpse into the thinking process of a half-witted, PR-obsessed front office.

RSB - actually it's not ignorance. Charges are proceeding against Mateo, Myers' wife backed off.

Dpatrone - is your source with Gillick in Tenn? or is he at home listening to radio and TV? like we are.

Yeah... the Mateo and Myers cases are worlds apart. The allegations against Mateo are a lot more serious. And, Myers had years of major league success to fall back on, Mateo has none. I'm not sure why anyone is bothering with a comparison.


From two days ago: "Great pickup for the Royals. Guillen is an underrated player, always has been, character issues and everything else aside. He adds about 100 RBIs to their lineup."

- J. Weitzel

Yeah, with Reyes is:

SS - Reyes
2B - Castillo
3B - Wright
CF - Beltran
1B - Delgado
LF - Alou
RF - Church/Gomez
C - Schneider

Last year's team wasn't much better with Green and Milledge and Valentin and LoDuca. Truth is, the Mets find production from the weirdest places (second coming of Endy Chavez; Damion Easley with 10 HR in 76 AB). I mean, you can say that of us too (Werth, Dobbs), but we rely much more on our big boppers than they.

Leave it to KC to totally butcher the Jose "Dude" Guillen signing.

John D (ude)

I don't think Gillick thought he was going to get anything done, even going into it.

As I noticed on stupid pictures I saw from monday-Gillick was at the Meetings on Monday wearing a sweatshirt. Men who plan on doing business in baseball, don't wear sweatshirts, they wear hideous Hawaiian Shirts.

Unfortunatley, the only way we were going to get anything out of the winter meetings, was if we had traded one of our untouchables. In fact, i'm sure most teams, especially in the NL, are hesistant to give us anything at this point, considering everyone knows the phils are a couple of pieces away from contending for several years straight(hopefully).

The Phils will probably hail the signing of Billy Traber as the ultimate bullpen solution, then tell us Helms has been working out and is primed for a season like 2006.. The only Blalock in bloodstripes is Jake.. Then , of course we will continue the tradition of signing the WRONG brother.. (Dom Dimaggio, Mike Maddux,-- I know there are more you guys can think of)

CJ and Richie - what the entire episode prominently illustrates is that there is disunity within the front office. The same things were known about Mateo and his case that are known now. Gillick/Amaro wanted him for his baseball credentials, and somebody else said, no, we don't want him here - *after the fact*. That astounds me.

Also, if you are going to claim that if two people commit heinous acts of violence against their spouses, but that one should be treated one way because he has greater status in the game, and because the charges against him were not followed through with, and the other should be treated as garbage to be quietly swept under the rug - I would say that's pretty much the definition of hypocrisy.

Weren't there rumblings of Guillen being on roids and/or a suspension may be coming a few weeks ago-BEFORE he signed?

Jeremy Giambi

CJ: At the time of Myers' incident, he was in his 5th year of major league service. At the time of Mateo's incident, he was in his 6th year of major league service. Myers' career ERA is 4.34; his career WHIP is 1.35; his career opponents batting average is .260. Mateo's career ERA is 3.68; his career WHIP is 1.20; and his career opponents batting average is .247.

Mateo has been a consistently solid reliever who has never really had a bad year. To be sure, he is no model citizen, but if that's the reason the Phillies just waived him, then what was the point of trading for him in the first place? The guy they gave up to get him was no great prospect, but he was possibly good enough to be a future utility infielder.

I would say that's pretty much the definition of hypocrisy.

Agreed, maybe even a double standard. But not "ignorance" because they know what they're doing even if it smells.

RSB: And I think that pretending as though this hypocrisy is somehow unique or suprising is the height of naitivity. A star player has a lot more legal leeway than some minor league pitcher with questionable talent. And, again, the allegations against Mateo were, in fact, more serious.

Mateo's wife was found with a black eye, needed five stiches in her lip because she was bitten and had also been choked.

Myers slapped his wife during a drunken argument.

Mateo continues to face third degree assault charges.

Myers' wife asked for the charges to be dropped, and they were.

1) I'm not suggesting Myers did nothing wrong.

2) I'm not saying it was okay to do the trade and then dump Mateo.

All I'm saying is that the Myers comparison is stupid. They're not even in the same league for so many reasons.

I don't think the Phils had Dom DiMaggio = he was actually a decent player.
I think the Phils had Vince DiMaggio.
Phils also have/had Michael Garciaparra.

The Mets absolutely will NOT trade Reyes, so that report is beyond bogus.

The Mets are in worse shape than the Phils. Not only do they have a old team and a old pitching staff, but they don't have much to trade (young prospects). Guys like Pelfrey and Humber are not nearly as highly regarded as the New York media tried to make them out to be. They have a couple young OF's that could end up being good, but that's about it.

The Mets would love to get a Haren or a Santana. But, they have no ammo to get either one.

BTW, no one, besides Detroit, is doing anything yet, so to rip Phil management is stupid.

Lest we forget:

Ken Brett
Mike Maddux
Frank Torre
Mark Leiter
Juan Bell

denny: You're missing the whole point. The idea is to predict what the Phillies will or won't do this off-season, then rip them for these predicted actions. If we didn't do this, there wouldn't be much to talk about for most of the off-season.

BAP - right on, brother. LOL

Speaking of the wrong brother - Jeff Weaver is available.

Wrong Dude
Some Dude's Brother

Hypocrisy? Hypocrisy? There's no hypocrisy in baseball!

Posted on

However, the Tigers have explored the idea of spinning him off, and they have contacted the Mets. There wasn’t an official offer presented to Omar, but what was talked about, from what I was told, they talked about spinning off Willis. In addition, though, the Mets would have to take on some salary. The Tigers are interested, perhaps, in moving Willis and Ivan Rodriguez and dumping his salary, which is $13 million next season. So, if the Mets wanted Willis from Detroit, they’d have to take on that salary. The thing is, he has a no trade clause, so to get him to waive it you’d probably have to give him another year.”

Leslie Gudel on CSN just spoke w/ Gillick.
Gillick said he made a proposal to Kuroda reps but conceded "we are probably out of it". They also talked to Glendon Rush who missed all of last year.

Michael Garciaparra

Dave Y: I saw you had Eric "Duder-onomy" Bedard as the hypothetical third starter in your post.

Any "Dude" with 221 K in 180+ IP is a number one starter on just about 28 teams in the MLB, including the Philadelphia Phillies. (As much as I love those Hamels and Myers dudes, its true).

Jeremy Giambi (although he hit incredibly well after the trade - 162 OPS+ - even if Bowa wouldn't play him).

Slocs: That's awesome!

Richie O.: 'ignorant' has more than one shade of meaning. You can know what you're doing and still act ignorantly.

I'm not naive enough to figure that hypocrisy is any kind of rarity in baseball, but just because it's more or less the norm here and in all corners of society doesn't mean we should be inured to it, and not comment on it when we see it. It's the kind of thing which probably should be looked into journalistically, but which almost certainly won't. And CJ, for all you want to say there's no correlation between Myers and Mateo: if Myers hasn't had that incident a season before, Mateo pitches for the Phillies in August and September and is firmly in the plans as a middle reliever for next season. Someone higher up than the general manager and his 'assistant' got wind of this acquisition and clearly undermined it after realizing the potential for PR fallout.

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