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Saturday, December 15, 2007

Comments

I would like the Jenkins signing. Assuming 20-25 HR's and 80 RBI's, that would make up for the offensive loss of Rowand. It could be argued that Jenkins is a better run producer than Rowand anyway (with Rowand's career year not-withstanding). And, with Vic's speed and arm in CF full-time, that would be a upgrade. Rowand brought intangibles that will be hard to replace, but he has never been a great/all star-type player (and not worth the long-term contract he got, in my opinion).

I would rather see a right-handed hitting every-day 3B added (and maybe it still will be), to add balance to the lineup (and a better glove), so maybe that happens later on. I am still very wary of having Burrell as the lone guy you have to count on from the right side of the plate, on a regular basis.

As for the pitching, the top 4 spots in the rotation are basically set, so its not truly imperative that another starter is added. I think Benson ends up signing (if he shows anything at all), to battle a couple of others already on the roster, for that 5th spot.

I still think Madson could be used to get that 3B, so I am not penciling him in as a reliever. If you consider Lidge, Romero and Gordon as locks, then there are still some big questions with the last 3-4 spots. Another quality arm is desperately needed, but may not be able to be gotten. Some young kids better be ready to go, in that scenario. Either that or you keep Madson, and part with a prospect for that 3B. That would be probably be the ideal plan. Madson is a very valuable 6th/7th inning type reliever, when healthy, who has a good track record in the majors.

Again, still some work to do. Hopefully, Gillick knows this and does something.

From the previous thread:

Dom, he hear anything regarding Wise or McPherson since they're more in our price range?


Ricky21~ No he hasn't heard anything for either of those 2. But 2 years ago no one use acrowbar to get Mcpheasrson fron=m the Angels. His stock has really fallen. Now he is a 3b-man. He should do ok in thge Minors but I'm not sure about the bigs. Pitching is another story. While most pitchers won't say it publicly CBB is a real deterant. It's gonna be tough to get anybody in. The key to getting pitching is the offense. this team needs to score runs so pitchers can be comfortable here. That's why I say maintaining the offense is so important.

I was also told that the Phils offer to Rowand included a 4th yr. player option depending on how well he did. Of course Rowand didn't accept.

Another reason I was told that the Phils might keep Helms if they got Jenkins was that a guy like Blalock would make them too LH. But still I would try to upgrade 3B as well. Then Helms could be traded, My source told me weeks ago that Helms for Farnsworth is real. Girardi loves Helms and he would play 1B in NY.

And as you know my source broke the Edmunds trade to me before it was announced so sometimes he is right. I have confirmed that he gets his info from someone in the MLB office. I'm trying to get info on Jenkins to pass along.

The sad truth is they didn't get Riske, didn't get Kuroda, didn't get Wolf. They did nothing to enhance their pitching. Lidge is a slight improvement, but this staff needs more than a slight improvement.

You can only hope Eaton will bounce back tremendously, the middle relievers will stick and Romero and Gordon don't blow up as much as we think. The problem is: We're hoping on these things and not getting any alternatives.

Also, if Patrone's "friend" is right, you see that with all the offers the Phils have made (maybe aside from Lowell), they've offered exactly the amount the player deserves. Rowand deserves three with a fourth year option. Wolf deserved his offer. I'm sure the Kuroda offer had to have been around 3Y/$21MM or so, which is about right for him.

That's the problem with management - they're afraid to go for the jugular with these guys, offering the straight deal instead of overpaying. They're scared of the risk.

If there's one thing - one thing at all - I can say positively about Ed Wade, it's that he has not been afraid to go into new territory and change it dramatically. Now maybe that's more an order from McLane; of course, then we're talking about Montgomery. Regardless, the boys in the FO here have been scared this offseason.

Maybe it's the Eaton and Helms deals last year. But they jumped the gun with Eaton and Helms wasn't their fault - if he would've played somewhat close to his 2006, it wouldn't be an issue. Now maybe they'll get Jenkins and sign some low-cost starter, but right now, as it stands, it's fair to say these guys are offering the norm for a reason.

Lidge in the pen, Myers to the rotation is an improvement, still do need more, but adding a quality starter like Myers to the rotation is something.

Helms didn't show much of anything last year, but his contract isn't an albatross like Eaton's.

Dom, I'm really only looking at McPherson as a league min signing to go to AAA and see if he can work out his issues. To me thats the type of risks we gotta start taking. At worst, he's Costanzo and he was apparently a semi-valuable trade piece.

Dom,
Who else is on the radar other than Jenkins?

Pads just signed Jim Edmonds. Mike Cameron is available. I think Cam would be a great signing. Put him in CF Platoon Weryth/Vic and Weryth/Burrell.

Off topic a bit, from the previous thread:

"Or maybe Beane is slipping a little and isn't the genius he was made out to be."

thrillhouse, everyone makes mistakes, including Beane.

I ask you:

Who would you have rather had trading Schilling, Rolen and Abreu - Gillick and "them" or Beane and A's ownership?

Who do you think would have gotten more value?

Who do you think does a better job evaluating other team's minor league talent - Gillick and "them's" infrastructure, or Beane and his staff?

Let's look at the trades for those three Phillies:

For all that talent (2 potential HOF and a third All Star) the Phillies got IN TOTAL:

a few starts from Nelson Figueroa, a couple of decent seasons from Vincente Padilla, a 15-16 record and 256 IP from Omar Daal, 20 IP from Eric Junge, 2 1/3 seasons of Travis Lee (for Schilling),

36 IP from Mike Timlin, 2 2/3 seasons of Placido Polanco, 52 IP from Ugueth Urbina (for Rolen),

and 12 2/3 IP from Matt Smith (for Abreu).

What did the other teams get:

The Snakes, Cards and Red Sox have 4 WS titles, none of which they would have won without core players like Schilling and Rolen.

Beane's track record in trades has been much more impressive.


Also, thrillhouse, ask clout and others who know minor leaguers this:

Did Beane, with ONE TRADE of Dan Haren, get more serviceable major league performance than the the Philies did for Schilling, Rolen and Abreu put togehter?


Here's Dayne Perry's assessment:

"Overall, GM Billy Beane was able to get six prospects, all ranging from good to excellent. That's a great return package and, on another level, it ramps up the going rates for, say, Joe Blanton, should the A's decide to deal him.

All in all, exceptional work by Beane. From this early vantage point, this trade looks like a win-win for Oakland and Arizona."

Ken Rosenthal weighs in:

"According to Baseball America's latest rankings, Gonzalez was the No. 1 prospect in the Diamondbacks' system while Anderson was No. 3, Cunningham No. 7 and Carter No. 8.

For Haren, however, the D-backs were willing to pay a high price."


What do yo think?

McPherson's another guy I got to see in high A ball and he certainly played the game well. I wonder if not being an everyday starter has something to do with it. He's been so injured with dinks and cuts over the years, though, and back surgery for a non-pitcher raises doubts.

He has also said the following "I don't care if I'm in A ball -- I just want to get back on the field," McPherson, 27, said. "I'm so far down the list right now, and rightfully so. I've had so many injuries, I was out for a year. I don't expect to be the starting third baseman, for sure, but I would like another opportunity."

Jenkins has never had an OPS+ below 100 in the majors. League average consistency has never looked so good...

Sorry phans the spam filter got my last post. Jason you need to fix that.

I was telling Malcomn that he was correct but the Phils did resign Romero. That being done set the market for relievers and Gillick wasn't going to put out thay kind of money also for Riske. Gillick has to be careful. He can't let other teams' know what he's trying to do. He's cautious. and because of that he's not able to do much.

He is working within a budget and he really can't say what the "true" budget is. If he did, then the price of every FA possibly coming to the Phils would have gone up.

Rowand was offered a deal that included a 4th year player option not guaranteed. He refused. Waht can you do? Gillick's not stupid. If he really knew though that Rowand wasn't returning, he could've acted more quickly in other areas. The phans would have figured out that Rowand wasn't coming back and would have been upst. Now Gillick's not doing much and the phans are still upset.

Ricky21~ Yes McPhearson would be a great Minor League signing.

Drew~ Nothing else is on the radar except Benson.
Malcolm~ Yes Phils have offered each player you mentioned waht they felt they deserved and rightly so. But in today's markey you've got to overpay sometimes. Now is the time to do that for Jenkins.

John~ Pads traded for Emunds last night. Cameron is available but he is 35 and suspended for the 1st 25 games of the season. Apparantly he's not an option for the Phils.

On topic, if the Phillies sign Jenkins at the price reported, and use 8 of the $10 million they purportedly still have to spend, it will be a tacit acknowledgement that the prospects for adding serviceable pitching are slim and none.

I remember when Mike Schmidt signed for a million per and how upset people were with that figure. Nobody is upset about that now. Now people are saying that Rowand got too much. Maybe so. Maybe not. All I know is I wanted him here and he's here no longer. Jenkins is not him. His contract would apparently be less than Rowand's would have been. I've found in life that one generally gets what they pay for, so I'm skeptical about this whole sceario until proven otherwise.

AWH~

That's true unless the Phils are lying about the budget. I also believe the Phils ARE interested in Ensberg at the right price. IMO get Jenkins, Ensberg, Wise and Benson as insurance for Eaton. If Eaton's healthy, then move Myers back to the closer role and then the 'pen is set. That said and done, a lot of Rowands's offense is placed and the pitcing issues could be solved.

I don't think the Giants got what they paid for with Zito last year. They seemingly overpay for 1 player per summer and seemingly keep getting worse.

Per the Phillies website story, there is a 3-yr offer on the table for Jenkins per MLB. The team that made the offer is not specified. Let's hope it's the Phils.

As for Benson..yeah we are watching him Monday..but if he throws well we have to contend with 9 other teams for his services.cant like those odds. Why would he want to pitch in a hitters park

By the padres taking on Edmonds contract (9 mil, minus 1 mil picked up by cards) that 8 mil prob takes them out of the jenkins game, no?

"it's fair to say these guys are offering the norm for a reason."

Malcolm, the problem with that statement is that the "norm" is not static, it's increasing. It's the same point clout, I and others have been making on this site for months. Salaries are, and will continue to go up as MLB revenues increase.

Quite frankly, I'm a little frustrated that other readers of this site refuse to "get it", just like the Phillies front office refuses to "get it".

Dpatrone,

Not to question your source, but you reported the story at 10 pm last night, 3 hours after it was reported in SanDiego.com:

http://www.signonsandiego.com/sports/padres/20071214-1851-bn14padres.html

The F'n budget. The F'n budget!

I am so sick of hearing about the freakin budget. This is just another example of the tight reins the bs "ownership" puts on the front office. Why won't/can't someone buy this team? The nucleus of this team is in their primes and play the game right...for the most part. They just had a taste of playoff baseball for the 1st time in 14 years. They have the last 2 mvps of the NL and both should speak volumes of why this team is pretty dynamic. They play to great crowds night after night. I live outside of Manhattan and, yet, I see Phils gear everywhere. Obviously, beerleaguer is indicative of great phandom. The "budget".

The budget consists of my hard-earned dollars that ring the register at phillies.com, CBP, etc. Can we just start campaign somehow to get someone to buy this team? Or this will become the longest lasting case of blue balls ever.

BedBeard: So you think this is a playoff caliber bullpen?

AWH: I'm glad you reposted that. It's the best post on here in the past week.

kdon, san diego is on pacific time, so it was more like 5 minutes :)

I am not a fan of this potential signing. the phillies need right-handed bats who don't strike out. jenkins is neither. he's old and slow, and clearly on the decline of his career. this would be a desperate move for a team that hasn't beein willing to do what it takes to go get what it actually needs. we could've had mike lamb for considerably less, and he was better offensively last year....and is right handed and doesn't strike out. also, we haven't even been in the discussions for the top starting pitchers.

if these offseason is defined by losing rowand, lohse, and bourn, while gaining lidge and jenkins, i would call that a big disappointment and a likely 3rd place finish.

elliott, a harsh, but at this point, accurate assessment.

clout , thanks for the compliment. I'm interested in your assessment of Beane's haul for trading Haren?

3-year offer on the table for Jenkins. If that was made be the phils and he has not taken it, he will go to SD.

kdon~ I was informed of the Edmunds trade last night by phone before it was up MLBtraderumors.com or ESPN. Even had the low-down on the prospect and the salary. What else do I have to do to defend me or my source?

Uh, yeah, thanks sifl. Forgot about that whole time difference!

D,

Nothing against your source. I just thought it had been reportedly earlier, but I was wrong.

And I almost hope your source is right for Jenkins. 3 years is a lot, but the Phils have nothing in the system for outfielders and are going to have to sign FA at some point.

I think a Werth/Jenkins platoon should be as productive as most of the 12-15M per year guys that have signed recently (Lee, Soriano, Fukudome, Damon, Hunter, Rowand, Mathews Jr., etc.)

No way is 3 years a good idea for Jenkins. 5 years of Rowand would be much preferable to 3 of Jenkins. Anything more than one year for Jenkins is pushing it, I understand that he won't sign here for less than two years but three would be retarded.

On a related note, how bad is the Front office at pitching this team that we constantly need to be overpaying guys to get them to consider playing here. I understand the stadium's affect for pitchers but it doesn't make sense in regard to hitters. This is a really worrisome precedent.

'is the safe choice always the best choice?' - this is a good question. But another would be, do they really *have* a choice? They have money to play with here. They evidently aren't going after Lohse or Silva. They lost out on Lowell, Kuroda, Wolf, Iguchi, and Rowand. (Count 'em, five free-agent spurnings by mid-December.) Meanwhile, they've already raised ticket prices across the board. I frankly don't think they have the gumption to come away from the off-season without a single significant free-agent signing. Keeping Romero was nice, but it's a relatively minor blemish on the payroll. The Phillies know they'll look bad if payroll comes down - and while naturally they aren't in any hurry to *increase* spending - we all know they are quite concerned with public image.

That doesn't answer the original question, however. I haven't heard anything further on the Nate McLouth rumor, but I have a feeling he could fill the spot they're looking for about as capably as Jenkins; basically, they'd be paying for the name and reputation more than the skills at this point. But Jenkins is 'safer' because he ultimately is more of a sure thing, hence the peace of mind.

I know one thing, he's a far cry better than Bobby Kielty...

J. Stark was a guest on Macnow and Diddy's show today on WIP talking about - what else - the Mitchell Report. General consensus among writers seems to be that the cases against Clemens and several others is awfully flimsy, with few actual witnesses. The signed checks are pretty solid evidence, but those came from a small portion. The case against Clemens, whose legacy obviously took the hardest blow, is especially weak, says Stark. He went on to grouse that little new information was brought to the surface for an undertaking that reportedly cost millions of dollars - all to arrive at a recommendation that baseball needs an independent commission to regulate and test for performance enhancing drugs. Which is what everyone has said all along. Even the players union would go along with that at this point.

If MLB can't substantially prove that the players they made such an effort to smear have actually been connected with (much less used) the drugs, wouldn't that set them up to be targeted with all kinds of lawsuits? Would they really have brought a name as big as Clemens' to light unless they felt they had pretty hard evidence?

The problem with the guy who implicated Clemens is he's on record - before the report - saying Clemens was clean. When faced with federal indictment, he changed his case.

On Jenkins. We certainly need peace of mind and as mentioned we are a bit thin for the OF positions. So taking that view I would like to see him sign with the Phils. He and Werth would make a good platoon. Phils need to strenghten things up a bit. Jenkins would be a good start.

RSB - Here's a good legal discussion of why Mitchell and/or Selig probably will not face action from Clemens et. al.. For one, the precedents for defamation law suits specify that success relies on showing malice, i.e., "knowledge of falsity or reckless disregard for the truth."

http://balkin.blogspot.com/2007/12/roger
-clemens-and-new-york-times-v.html

I'm getting this growing fear that the mets will sign Prior and he'll be dominant by 2009. This is based on nothing but intuition, but I could definately see the mets signing him for his name as a way to placate the fanbase.

Nationals signed LHP Ray King to a minor league contract. King agreed to the deal a couple of weeks ago. The lefty specialist is expected to earn $850,000 if he makes the team.

Signing Prior = $3,500,000
Tickets Sold that day = $1,000,000
Prior Jerseys sold 5,000 @ $180= $900,000
Prior T-shirts sold 8,000 @ $20= $160,000
Extra beer consumed at CPB anytime Prior winces or shakes his arm 2000 @ $7= $14,000

I could keep going, but the point is, you make the fans happy, the fans make you happy back. Prior goes from a $3.5 million signing to a $1.5 million signing very quickly.

Lidge is more than a slight improvement. It's irrational to argue otherwise. Lidge at worst is equal to Myers. At best he slots back to being one of the premier closers in the game.

I assume he falls in that middle but closer to the latter than the former. I wanted him at the trade deadline badly last year thinking a change of scenery and a stable role would be best for him.

BY acquiring Lidge we strengthened the rotation moving Myers back to pair with Hamels giving us two legitimate 15-20 game winners at the top.

If we kept Myers in a closing role than we'd have signed someone like Jason Jennings or Kris Benson to fill out the other spot. Along with Eaton that gives us too much instability. With Lidge we move Myers back where he belongs and if we sign Jennings or someone like that now it's compared to Eaton.

Basically

Lidge+Myers+Eaton > Myers+Benson+Eaton

It's illogical to argue otherwise

Read some where that we are interested in Cameron??? Somebody with a source... is this true? I think I would rather have Cameron then Jenkins... or both. Whatever.

DPatrone, would you please stop with all your stupid rumors and insights from some alleged insider?

Jenkins would be ok but like Jayson says there is actually a pretty good argument that Werth might be better as an everyday starter rather than in a platoon situation. Either way, we all need to realize that our 3 OF's will be weak offensively. Burrell will now have increased pressure put upon him, which in the past, was a terrible situation. However, Burrell stepped up towards the early summer last year and helped lead this team when Utley was out and Howard was struggling as the offensive leader.

I believe that Gillick is hoping the Burrell will have a big season since it is a contract year. For all the ripping Burrell has gotten over the years, I have to give the guy some credit. He unlike most athletes is loyal to this city. You dont hear him whine about being critized and you never hear any negative off the field stuff about the guy other than he used to allegedly like to frequent certain drinking establishments within this city. There is no reason that if healthy Burrell can't recreate last year's numbers. I'm just worried that come the late innings we won't have the OF depth needed to get a defensive replacement in there for Burrell.

Which I don't think is that bad because there were many times last year (especially at home) where I thought that having an offensive threat in the game was more important than a speedy defensive OF.

For what its worth I'm still sticking to late great "THe Dude's" comments from late in the 2006 season when he predicted that Lieber might be better served as a reliever since he seems to flatline after 4 innings. I still see a chance that Lieber is brought in here as a long reliever with the chance to eventually be servicable in tighter situations when the eventual injuries to Lidge, Madson & Gordon occur.

lekh, your question

"On a related note, how bad is the Front office at pitching this team that we constantly need to be overpaying guys to get them to consider playing here. I understand the stadium's affect for pitchers but it doesn't make sense in regard to hitters. This is a really worrisome precedent."

made me think of something. It reminded me of Borowski's comments after the debacle of the physical Phils' gave him last offseason.

It's not the physical itself, but the leak afterwards that he had 'failed'. If you recall, he said some things about Phils' management that weren't too kind.

I wonder if the reputation the Phillies organization has or is developing amongst players is having a negative effect on their ability to attract players.

elliott: A right-handed bat to play where? They need a lefty to platoon with Werth in RF. They could use an upgrade over the platoon at 3B but Gillick says he's fine with Helms/Dobbs. So where does this right-handed bat play?

Truth Injection: Look at Lidge's stats as a closer the past 2 seasons and look at Myers stats as a closer last year and then get back to us with an intelligent opinion. Thanks.

Jason, as you well know, I have been an advocate since the season ended of signing Ray King.

If he's healthy and in shape he'll make the team, and frustrate the crap out of Howard, Utley and Rollins, who he has dominated.

Hank the Tank - Burrell has averaged 30 HR and 100 RBI the last THREE years.

2007 was not an aberration.

AWH: My assesment of the A's trade from the earlier thread:
The Haren deal is a big roll of the dice by Billy Beane. Four of these guys have a chance to be significant major league players: Gonzalez, Anderson, Cunningham and Carter. Of course, with prospects, 3 of the 4 could fail and 1 be mediocre.

Gonzalez is tbe best of the bunch, with All-Star potential if he can learn to hit lefties. He held his own in AA and AAA last year at age 22. His K/BB ratio needs work but he's got a better than even chance to hit .280 with 30 HRs in the Show someday. Anderson had a nice year at age 19. He was drafted in the 2nd round out of HS, but his dad is the baseball coach at Oklahoma State. he has command of 3 pitches including a 90 mph fastball that will get faster. Carter is a Jack Cust clone, so Beane should love him. Cunningham is a toolsy Golson-type although with way more of a clue than Golson.

I do believe that its widely been known for the last 20 years that this current ownership as structured is a joke. Just look at Giles comments towards the late 80's about PHilly being a small market. There are in it for the $ and they know they have us by the balls. Only until they sell will we be able to measure how inept they were. Do realize they own a team in the largest market which only has 1 team in that city. And the only other team in the State is 5 hours away.

Los Angeles, New York, Chicago all have two teams from which they directly compete against for attendence and fan support.

Clout, I may have agreed with you like 5 times in the past 2 days...but it ends here. This is a ridiculous argument. Lidge is good. Lidge has good stuff. Your argument is that he does better as an 8th inning guy than as a closer. That would be a mental thing. My retort would be that he needed a change of scenery. Accomplished. I love Brett Myers, but I prefer him as a starter, hands down. His arsenal works better there. The best closers in the game are the ones with that 1 amazing out pitch. Rivera's cut fastball, Lidge's slider, etc. Myers has 4 good pitches, but nothing nasty. He has the mental aspect covered but I don't think he has the arsenal to do it consistantly.
We want to sign and fix a mental case like Wise, whats the difference between that and fixing Lidge's head since the actual pitches are still there?

AWH - it is widely known that Burrell was much more clutch last year than in previous years when many of us argued that his numbers mostly came during meaningless times of the games. Also, last year Burrell cut down on K's in late inning situations and seemed to be more willing to swing the bat than in previous years.

With Rowand gone I think that his run producing #'s will increase. Here's hoping that Burrell will finally become an All Star this year with a nice line of .290 38hrs 120rbi and OBP of .410 and SLG in the range of .530.

I don't want to start a pros and cons argument about PtB but Hank the Tank mentioned Pat had shown loyalty to Philadelphia. There isn't much loyalty going around in sports. Yeah, you Rowand! But thats why I like Pat Burrell. Loyalty. Even after all the crap he has been served up and last year when the Phils were keen to move him. The man stuck and was solid. We have all trashed him at one point or another but he deserves a good rap. Onya Pat!

"With Rowand gone I think that his run producing #'s will increase. Here's hoping that Burrell will finally become an All Star this year with a nice line of .290 38hrs 120rbi and OBP of .410 and SLG in the range of .530."

That Hank would be the best. You never know. Thats why this time of year is fun. Hope. Push it up another notch Pat. Time to lead.

Is it me or is RF much less of a concern than SP, RP, and 3B?

Werth might not be great, but he's a better option in RF than Helms/Dobbs is at 3B. He can hit some and play defense. Further, Werth is a better option in RF than Eaton is as a starter, or Moyer or Kendrick are as a #3 starter. He's also a better option in RF than any of the crap we have in the bullpen is relative to their positions (Lidge and Madson discluded).

Our biggest needs, in order, are a #3 starter, a good bullpen arm or two, a 3B that can field and hit a little. Only after these are addressed should we be going after a platoon partner for Werth. That said platoon partner is Geoff Jenkins on a THREE YEAR DEAL is abhorent. He's a fine yet flawed player but in no way is he deserving of even a two-year deal, though I wouldn't oppose a two-year deal simply because it would be required to sign him in the first place.

That the phillies are pursuing Jenkins before other priorities are adressed speaks to the appalling lack of imagination and creativity that is rife throughout the entire phillies organization, leaking like sewage from an rusted pipe from the top down. How is it that nobody in the front office can come up with a meaningful attempt at addressed our GLARING NEED FOR A #3 STARTER. Gillick talks and talks about pitching and how he's not focused on upgrading our holes on the corner, yet all of his major attempts at action have adressed said corner holes. He seemingly has become resigned to the notion that the phillies will surround their two core starting pitchers with a bunch of glorified #5 starters who couldn't even sniff out a spot in a legitimate WORLD SERIES contending rotation (a bit of hyperbole there as I actually do like Kendrick and Moyer, and Moyer was great when it counted). What's most aggregious about Gillick's performance to date is that it seems he is entirely unwilling to think outside the box because thinking too hard would just require too much effort. THIS OFFSEASON DEMONSTRATES THE PROBLEM OF HAVING A GM WITH ONE FOOT OUT THE DOOR TO RETIREMENT. In my estimation, plain and simple, Gillick is a lazy Phuck and Amaro is his pissboy, entirely incapable of the type of creative thinking required to take a good team and make it great!

How does Pat's willingness to stay in Philly amount to loyalty? It easily could be that he had become personally comfortable living in the Philly area and doesn't want to get traded to a place like Baltimore. I would not equate that with "loyalty" per se.

If the Phils sign Jenkins at 3 year for $8-9 M per then it is a questionable signing. Classic case of the Phils overpaying for marginal talent since they failed to get what they supposedly really needed.

I would rather have the Phils take a stab at trading for McLouth and dumping that money back into the pitching which is still threadbare.

Guys, relax. It is December 15th. We have aquired the nicest piece of ANY of our division rivals (Lidge). The Nats are a non-factor. The Braves lost a huge piece of offense and are counting on Glavine. The Mets have a new defensive catcher. The Marlins can pay their squd with PTBs salary. Also, the order shouldnt be inportant, lets get the pieces. Are we complaining about the chance of bolstering our OF with a guy with a strong career slugging percentage?? If we are still without another stater at the end of January, complain away...but give "them" a month.

"Nationals signed LHP Ray King to a minor league contract. King agreed to the deal a couple of weeks ago. The lefty specialist is expected to earn $850,000 if he makes the team."

Looks like Gillick might have erred by resigning Romero so early. He could have gone after a LOOGY like King or Miller and spent the savings on bringing in another arm like Riske. Then again, that is assuming that Gillick would have actually gone after another veteran reliever and that is a big if.

MG - I equate Pat's willingness to stay in Philly as loyalty because of all the boos and crap he has had to withstand. Deserving of it or not. Most players would have gladly left. In a hurry. Sure, he probably is comfortable. I just like his tenacity to show us Phils phans that he can still be productive even when it seemed he was not welcome.

If getting Jenkins means keeping Helms,I hope he goes to San Diego.There are plenty of platoon OF available and how do we know that Werth can't play everyday? To not get Lamb 2Yrs/6.6m shows that 3b is set for 08.Seems if NY and the Fish want Helms...gooodbye.

just read on wikipedia that wes helms and ed helms are cousins...i'd be willing to bet ed plays better defense

Rowand's offense needs to bne replaced and Werth on an everyday basis isn't going to cut it. A Jenkins-Werth combo may come close, therefore it is a valid area to address. Yes, more pitching is needed, but when the Phils flat-out refuse to offer longer term deals, the pitching falls through time and time again. They might as well build around offense in their band-box of a home. Finally, McLouth isn't anything more than a #5 or even #6 outfielder at best. This talk of acquiring him needs to cease. You can't seriously look at our outfield and bench options and think he is the missing link.

Clout- you're just not very smart so I can see how you can't understand the simple argument here.

I'm well aware of Lidge struggling two years ago. Last year was full of peaks and valleys but every scouting report that has come out stated Lidge started to abandon a pitch and was close to being dominant again.

Lidge was as good as Myers last year.

The point is- and the one you apparently missed- that adding Lidge moved Myers back to the rotation which gives us two legitimate 15-20 game winners at starting pitcher along with a legitimate, possibly top 10 closer if he keeps regaining form like at the end of last year.

Please tell me how that makes us worse and doesn't make us significantly better.

And please come down off high-horse mountain before you do so because it's affecting your IQ

With the Kuroda signing, Esteban Loaiza may not have a spot in LAs rotation. If we could get him cheap he might not be a bad addition. In tems of the FA SPs left, I think it be better to pursue Colon than Benson, in fact I think I'd prefer Lieber to Benson. Why did Gillick rule out signing Lieber earlier this offseason, off all the available pitchers he might be the best cost-effective option.

Hank the Tank~

"DPatrone, would you please stop with all your stupid rumors and insights from some alleged insider?"

The only thing I will say about your comment is this: There are 2 other posters here (Richie of Ashburn and Ed9277) who know me and my source. So the things that I post here are not stupid and neither am I. Other than that I will pay you no mind at all. If you don't believe that's up to you.

I think Gillick was obviuosly concerned about Lieber's conditioning and who knows if nothing else gets done, maybe PG will look into bringing him back. I believe he's still unsigned.

DPatrone: What I think Hank the Tank really meant, is great, we know you have a source but you don't have to remind us every five minutes "my source told me.." like your some premier insider for this blog and the constant patting yourself on the back and looking for compliments from other posters. For example, last night you said "The Edmunds trade is up now on MLBtraderumors.com. I happened just like I said it did." Congratulations, DPatrone! What do you want a cookie? It's just arrogant and annoying. It is appreciated but can you ever have a post without including your source and the credibility of your source?

I will now go back into my shell.

And I'm now out of my shell:

Andy Pettite has addmitted using HGH.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=3156305

Naylman .... amen re: the "my source" posts. and "TRUTH" - forget trying to argue any point with Clout --- if it doesn't amount to you kissing his a$$ with agreement, he'll just frame any statement you make to suit his needs and use some form of the word "idiot" in his response, eg. idiot, idiocy, idiotic etc. etc. etc.

come on guys clemens is innocent his head was bigger then bonds and he pitched better in his 40's then his 20's and 30's run his ass out on the next train and put him in bonds cell what a joke!

Naylman~

Of course I can. I don't like patting myself on the back. The only reason why I said what I said the way I said is 'cause I'm tired of getting bashed like I did when the Wolf signing didn't happen. Like i said previously, I could care less what other posters think. I just post and on here and Philliestalk.com because down here in Richmond I don't get much info on tv about Philly sports teams. When It comes to Philly, ESPN sucks. I don't get to see the Philly feeds on comcast etc. I can't try to analyze Gillick's thoughts or the like. So I figure somebody up there who may have good info on the team, and wants to talk about, well that's fun. Guys like play GM, talking about signing this guy or that guy when it's not a possibility. Guys blog every pitch during games. That's a personal right. I don't do either of those things. I just love talkin' Phillies baseball and I will personally do that with any knowledgeable phan. I'm tired of defending myself if something I post dosen't pan out.

You'll notice I really don't bash other posters. First of all that's not ethical. Secondly, everyone has a right to his opinion. I do get info from a friend. It's not always right but I get it. And I don't post bogus stuff. Maybe somebody else knows something I don't. That's great! I'd certainly like to hear that stuff.

What I don't know is what the heck they'll do if Jenkins goes to SD. I wish someone up there could tell me what the tam is up yo. They ceratinly can't start the season with only 10 guys or so under contract. And they will sign their arb-eligable players, But there are holes to fill. Let's see how they fill them.

DPatrone - Don't worry. It is only Dec. 15. Gillick has plenty of time to address the Phils' deficiencies. Everything is falling into place as part of Gillick's master strategy.

What strategy is that? The second coming of value-village garbage?

My internet's been gone for a couple days at home so let me recap what I've just learned.

People are arguing with clout about the viability of Lidge as closer (and soon about Myers as a starter).

People are arguing with DPatrone about his source.

People are arguing about whether it's more important to get a mediocre starting pitcher, a mediocre third baseman or a mediocre LH platoon partner in RF.

Pat Gillick has done nothing while other teams are making major moves.

Wow. I've missed a lot.

(But not Vic Darensbourg!!!!)

yeah, a totally sweet locker. but that's jenkins' locker. yours is over there

ESPN reported around 9:00PM that the Phils are interested in Cameron. Didn't say a word on Jenkins. Did anyone else see this?

And this is per Yahoo sports:

Lohse is considering offers from the New York Mets and Philadelphia Phillies, both of which could go to four years.

I thought the Phils didn't want to go 4 years on Lohse. I'd certainly take him over Benson.

I don't see any reason not to go 4 years on Lohse. The typical reason is worry about injury, but he's never had any arm trouble. And if the worry is paying $10 million per year, by 2011 I have a feeling that's going to be what No. 3 starters all over baseball will be getting. I've liked the guy all along, and he didn't do anything in a Phillies uniform to change it. And before all the whiners start in about how he's "no better than Eaton," I suggest you learn the difference between "league average" (which is what most No. 3 starters are) and the worst starter in MLB.

Jkanef: As presently constituted, how many games do you think this Phillies team would win in 2008?

ricky: Your problem is you don't read carefully. You went on a big rant about things I didn't say. My post was a simple response to this statement from Truth Injection: "Lidge at worst is equal to Myers." Nothing more, nothing less.

Read those words carefully: "Lidge AT WORST is equal to Myers."

If you agree with those words, and I hope you do because I enjoy shooting fish in a barrel, then we can have a debate.

JMARR: Don't be so hard on me. I just think posters ought to have facts to support their opinions. You ought to try it sometime.

Alby: I'm with you on Lohse. I like him better than Silva.

DPatrone:keep the posts coming I appreciate your insight.Have you considered buying a slingbox? I know this is highly unlikely but I'm hoping John Middleton new found cigar $ will be unleased on a few more signings. I realy liked Lohse last year but am shocked the Phills are in the mix. 4 years/at 9 million sounds right. But I'm guessing that Gill Meche 11 million per year will be the starting point.

The Kuroda contract ws 3 years $35.2 million, so any starting pitcher signed by the Phillies will have to be overpaid. What else is new?

I'd like to have Lohse back too. Just didn't think were interested. He's a Boras client as well. If the Phils could retain him, it might fair them well when it's Madson's turn. And if they really are interested in Cameron, I guess that means they're out on Jenkins. So at the moment, I really don't know what to make of the situation. Thoughts?

"You'll notice I really don't bash other posters. First of all that's not ethical."

Dom, I must disagree. Ethics has nothing to do with it.

I could just as easily argue that if another poster makes an incorrect or illogical argument, that we have a moral and ethical obligation to correct that person.

Now, I agree that sometimes things get a little uncivil on this sight, but there are some people who post here who cannot see the forest for the trees, and sometime must be struck between the eyes with a 2 by 4 in order to see straight.

Jon: I agree with your Jenkins/McLouth post in principle, but McLouth does have more room for upside so calling him a 5th outfielder may be too harsh. If you ask me to predict, however, who will provide greater offense in 2008, that's a no brainer: Jenkins.

Kells~

I have been told about a slingbox. Is it leagal? And can I get Philly sports on it down here in the Richmond area? If I can, then I'm on it like white on rice.

AWH: "I could just as easily argue that if another poster makes an incorrect or illogical argument, that we have a moral and ethical obligation to correct that person."

A man after my own heart! Posters who come to Beerleaguer better have game.

AWH: "I could just as easily argue that if another poster makes an incorrect or illogical argument, that we have a moral and ethical obligation to correct that person."

A man after my own heart! Posters who come to Beerleaguer better have game.

A fair assessment, clout. I'd rather have Werth in the 4th outfielder spot and Snelling in the 5th, rather than Snelling and McLouth battling it out for the 4th and 5th outfielder spots respectively. I think we need the better 2008 option due to hopefully taking the next step next season. Two years for 8-10 million should get the job done. Hopefully the Phils step up to the plate.

"The Kuroda contract ws 3 years $35.2 million, so any starting pitcher signed by the Phillies will have to be overpaid. What else is new?"

clout, what do you think a "fair" offer is for someone like Kuroda?

I guess I should say hopefully the Phils step up to the plate and actually come through this time.

AWH~
" could just as easily argue that if another poster makes an incorrect or illogical argument, that we have a moral and ethical obligation to correct that person.

Now, I agree that sometimes things get a little uncivil on this sight, but there are some people who post here who cannot see the forest for the trees, and sometime must be struck between the eyes with a 2 by 4 in order to see straight."

You certainly have have point. What I meant by "ethical" is that I just can't call someone an "idiot" or "stupid" as a poster may really believe in what they post. But of course some comments may be attributed to too much consumption of a beverage of choice (LOL).

But it is perfectly ok to correct anyone (myself included of course) when proven wrong. Hell, I'm wrong more than not. In fact, I thought Kuroda would go to Seattle not LA.

I'm basically new to this site (less than a year, I think). The difference between this one and Philliestalk.com is more posters and more opinions, hence more traffic. There is always a discussion going on. We all must remember that just like baseball, this is supposed to be fun.

AWH: Hell, I thought salaries got of line when they went over $1M a year. I figured Kuroda was probably worth $10M a year since that was the number being tossed around for Silva and Lohse and I think he's got a great chance to be at least as good as those 2 and probably better.

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