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Thursday, December 06, 2007


We have 38 people working down there? How can I get a Phillies job?

I think what we have to remember is - for all the posturing and talk in Nashville, not a lot is really happening.

The Dodgers grabbed Andruw and the Tigers made a splash, but besides that, you're not seeing anything outrageous.

The one thing I'm mad about is the Riske signging. I really think the Phils need one more good back-end reliever, and they didn't get the best one for the job. As it stands, they're set on bringing Youmans into the 'pen. Not good 'nough.

The needs are still the same - a starter, a back-end reliever, a bat that can somewhat replace Rowand's. The team is no better off than they were when they began the week; then again, most teams can say that too.

Anybody read the excellent article from Stark on about the Tigers/Marlins trade? If not please do so right now, especially if your name is Montgomery, Giles, and to a lesser extent Gillick because we all know he is hamstrung by the above. That's all we've ever asked for, bring us a winner to Philly. If I lived in Detroit and wasn't already a season ticket holder, I would be today after the trade and reading that article.

...and the Phils continue to search in dumpsters and under rocks for talent by picking up a couple rule 5s. Pathetic! They are close to becoming a real winner and the brass thinks they can just sit there and not pay for some improvement. Obviously we don't have two top tier prospects enticing enough to make such a large deal, and therein lies the other part of the problem.

Parker: From last thread. There is absolute NO, as in zero, evidence that Baldelli will ever hit 25-30 HRs a year. None. But you can believe anything you wish. Also, check out his career stats: He's below average against RHP.

Re: Rule 5 draft. These two guys are WAY better than Jim Ed Warden. At least someone is doing their homework. Both of these guys had good potential before undergoing arm surgery and neither regained 100% of their stuff, but there is an outside chance one of them might stick. Frankly, I think Holdzcum has the better chance because he does have one good pitch and you can get away with that in middle relief. I'd be shocked if Blackley has a career as a starter, but the thinking there may be that the M's decline to take him back and he's nice organization filler.

Malcolm: I'm with you. The one thing we can hammer PG for is the failure to sign Riske. He would've helped and wouldn't have broken the bank.

Clout: You think? Holdzkcom seems pretty green. Not a lot of time in the high minors. But you're right, they're both better than Jim Ed, and don't forget Alfredo "Domican League Dazzler" Simon.

UPDATE, 12-6-07 at 11:44am: Scott Lauber says the Phils and O's haven't discussed Bedard at the Meeings. However, he seems to indicate that at some point prior the O's told the Phils they don't have the players to get it done. Joel Sherman of the New York Post wrote on Tuesday that the Phillies were initially told they didn't match up but were still trying to get involved.

Sounds like the 38 or some dudes in Nashville were trying to get something for Beerleaguer posters to debate.

I'd think the Phils give Blackley a shot as 2nd lefty in the pen and longman. Soft tossing Moyer may be able to help the lefty out...but I'm not too hopeful on that frontier.

Clout - I think Baldelli hitting 16 HR's in 364 AB's at the age of 24 is evidence that he has the ability to show 25 HR power. His issue is far more health than talent in my opinion.

In fact if both he and Rowand were able to put up 600 AB's out of the 5th/6th hole in our line-up for a full season - I'd take my chances with Baldelli's numbers as I don't think we'll see Rowand approach his 2007 performance again in his career.

Clout, 16 hr's in 364 at bats is evidence of 25-30 hr power. If (huge if) he could stay healthy for 600 at bats, that would project out to 26 hr's. He is not a platoon partner type of player and shouldnt be compared to Mclouth, especially unfavorably. Injuries have derailed his career, but he was a legit major league talent pre-injuries.

MikeH: From the last thread, here's your link:

Baldelli healthy?? C'mon now. Those two words don't go together. On thing though - in 2000, Baldelli was drafted by Chuck LaMar, who is now with the Phillies. If Baldelli was on the board when the Phillies selected, they would have taken him instead of Chase Utley.

Baldelli and health mesh like Rondel White and health...never gonna happen!

Ricky21 - scary we were thinking the same thoughs on Baldelli ...

Regarding health, agreed, but he has to get over some of that stuff eventually - and frankly w/out the injuries he's not even remotely available in a trade .... so careful what you wish for on that deal.

Light day on the rumor front, what with it being Rule 5 day and all. But this looked intriguing enough from MLBTR:

"790 The Sports Animal, a Houston radio station, is reporting that the Astros are close to a deal to acquire Miguel Tejada. The reported package: Adam Everett, Chris Burke, and a pitcher. Heard them saying this myself by listening online; they're talking about it now.

The package sounds light, but maybe better if Troy Patton is the pitcher. More when I have it."

That seems really light; doesn't look as if that's real. Everett's a real light-hitting shortstop and Burke isn't anything more than platoon fodder. But Patton is a nice lefty who projects to a 2 starter. This looks like your Grade A Ed Wade "let's bring in someone with name recognition" move.

Actually, if Ed Wade were able to pull off that move, I'd say he just made himself the best trade of his career. More to the point, I would seriously wonder how it was that the Phillies weren't able to come up with something better to offer the Orioles.

The other factor that is worth mentioning about Bedard is this: Even if Andy MacPhail has a deal, who really knows if Peter Angelos will approve it. Angelos pulled these meddling stunts last Winter Meeting. It must be like trying to deal with two GMs. Check out Jon Heyman's article at SI for more of this back story.

Mike H- It's an interesting story. Really shows that if Bedard is dealt, it's not going to happen over night. Good news could be that Angelos won't deal with certain teams, so it limits suitors a bit.

38 people ? I look on the Phils website and they don't even have half that many people in baseball operations. This must be their entire coaching and scouting staffs at all levels. How is that productive ? They must look at these winter meetings as paid vacation for their staff. Glad our ticket price increases are being put to good use. And all that gets accomplished is drafting Blackley and Holdzkom.

Some of those people may be in PR, broadcasting, fun & games, etc. All kinds of stuff happens there. Except trades, apparently.

What a shocker! First things that meet my eye today on Beerleaguer are the words 'Rule 5' and a picture of someone in a Mariners cap. Never would have dreamed.

JW. Forgot they also have a trade show at the Winter meetings. Well here's hoping they replace that watery mustard at CBP.

How come nobody here's talked about the suddenly available Brandon Inge for 3B?

His numbers may have slipped a bit in 07, but he's a much better alternative to Bruntlett/Helms/Dobbs.

ricky: What do you think about 16 HRs in 518 ABs? Or that doesn't count because it doesn't support your argument?

"Well here's hoping they replace that watery mustard at CBP."

mmm. watery mustard. makes me hungry just thinking about it..

Because I brought up Inge the day of the Willis/Cabrera trade, and we all sort of shot it down because of all the strikeouts.

Inge is a more expensive Pedro Feliz, Doc Justice

I did read the article by Stark posted on While CJ pointed out to me yesterday some very valid reasons why Detroit is in a different position than Philly is, I would still recommend that our esteemed front office read the article as well.

When you read about the owner calling Dombrowski and pitching Cabrera to him, and how fired up Cabrera and Willis seem to be, consider what this is doing to Detroit's team and morale, and (last but not least)think about what the comment section on Beerleaguer would read like if our guys pulled the's tough to get excited about the latest and greatest Philly deals.

I know, I know, C.J., it's a totally different situation, but it's fun to dream, and right now that's about where the fun ends.

Clout - You wrote "There is absolute NO, as in zero, evidence that Baldelli will ever hit 25-30 HRs a year. None."

So I gave you evidence, as in some, that he could. Didn't claim it was a certainty, didnt claim it was likely, just that he was on pace to do so before another injury. If healthy he hits the crap out of the ball though, you don't see the entire picture from the numbers because he doesnt have much lift in his swing. When he does start to get a little more lift he shows very legit power as evidenced with his 2006 month of September. 9 hr's, 3 triples, 6 doubles in 110 at bats. I'm not saying its sustainable, but that is evidence of power. However, I will now add Rocco Baldelli to the list of people that Clout hates.

Pedro Feliz
Rocco Baldelli
Pat Gillick

About today's events or lack thereof: BIG DEAL, SO WHAT!

"What do you think about 16 HRs in 518 ABs? Or that doesn't count because it doesn't support your argument?"

I'll hop in to point out that Baldelli was 22 that year and 24 in the year that the others pointed out. Typically, players hit for more power as they get closer to their late 20s, so that sort of thing isn't that unusual.

"There is absolute NO, as in zero, evidence that Baldelli will ever hit 25-30 HRs a year."

- Clout

"Clout, 16 hr's in 364 at bats is evidence of 25-30 hr power."

- Ricky

"Well I guess that does count as evidence that Baldelli could hit 25 home runs in a season, but it is tenuous at best. Given his statistics, age and injury history I strongly doubt that he will ever produce over an entire season like he did for 368 at bats during his age 24 season in 2006."

- what clout could have said

"ricky: What do you think about 16 HRs in 518 ABs? Or that doesn't count because it doesn't support your argument?"

- What clout decided to write, therefore committing the same crime he is accusing others of committing all in the same post!

How someone can be so insightful and so utterly childish at the same time (outside a presidential race) is beyond me. Clout I bet if you ever admitted to being wrong it would feel really weird but really good at the same time

Something positive about Pat Gillick:

Omar Minaya's been running around the meetings working possible trades like an aerobics instructor on Red Bull. He's accomplished, basically, nothing.

Pat Gillick's eaten ice cream. Same result.

Ya gotta love that energy efficiency.

Well shit, if Inge = Feliz, I'll stick with Eric Won'tHit.

Also, Jason: Not even Mos Def listens to that album.

Well, if Inge = Feliz, I'll stick with Eric Won'tHit.

Also, Jason: Not even Mos Def listens to that album.

Andy: If theres anything that Pat Gillick knows, its energy efficiency. I mean when looking for players he only looks at two rosters Mariners and White Sox.

"First things that meet my eye today on Beerleaguer are the words 'Rule 5' and a picture of someone in a Mariners cap. Never would have dreamed."

Funniest post all day, so far.

Also I do appreciate Pat's Gillicks Energy Efficiency. If you know that you don't have ANYONE in you farm system and thats all anbody seems to be interested in, you might as well take it easy. Still don't get 100% everyones fascination for "Prospects". You know, not Major League Baseball Players. Just 19, 20, and 21 year old kids, who have proven NOTHING against Major League Talent.

Considering the Phillies have no "highly regarded" unproven players- might as well wear a sweatshirt, eat some ice cream, and play some slots, and laugh when the mets still suck next year.

Okay, since the winter meetings ended up being completed useless and boring, I started daydreaming.
I was thinking about our only Championship team and what that payroll would have been in today's MLB.
I'm guessing it would be somewhere between $130-135 million; that is significantly above what our current limit of $90-105 million.
Here are some guesses to the salaries of the top 3 starters, closer, setup, starting lineup, and the bench…

Lefty $18MM
Ruthven $5
Christensen $5
Tugger $10
Slink $2
Boone $5
Pete $18
Manny $6
Bowa $5
Michael Jack $21
Bull $12
Maddox $8
Shake-n-Bake $5
Bench $12

That’s about $131 million.
Seems like that is what today's Phils need to spend to win again… at least!

Can someone explain to me why Mike Zagurski is so hated? I don't think the kid was entirely ready when he was called up last year and with 2 hr's allowed in 133 minor league innings, I see him having decent long term potential starting with this year.

mm: You don't get the fascination with "prospects"? Where do you think MLB players come from, they just appear out of nowhere at age 25 with MLB-ready skills? Do you not understand how the finances of the game work, that players who are young are also cheap, and thus attractive to teams who have limited financial resources? I'm baffled by your post.

I like Zagurski, but wouldn't mind seeing him get some AAA experience. He did a decent job last year with the big club, but his inexperience showed.

1980 team = 91 wins = $131 million.

2007 team = 89 wins = $96 million.

I like the point of the exercise, though.

Mike H -

The 1980 team also had 3 NLCS wins and 4 WCS wins. That's 98 wins.

Tugger striking out Willie Wilson = $priceless

1980 team = 7 playoff game wins = $131 million.
2007 team = 0 playoff game wins = $96 million.

As Colorado, Boston, the Phillies and the Yankees proved in 2007, there is little to no correlation between payroll and playoff success.

4:03 p.m., from Jayson Stark
• After announcing the Miguel Cabrera trade Wednesday, the Tigers said they weren't sure whether they were going to trade Brandon Inge or keep him and make him a super-utility guy. Well, looks like they've figured that out. Clubs that spoke to the Tigers on Thursday report that they are telling clubs looking for a third baseman that he is available. The buzz is that at least two of those teams -- the Dodgers and Phillies -- have already said no. But the Tigers still appear to believe there's a market for Inge down the road.

From --
"Krasovic also has a note on Andruw Jones. Apparently the only other concrete offer outside of the Dodgers was a two-year, $22MM one from the Royals."

Offer Rowand 3/$33 or 4/$44 and get this done already!

UD Hens, nice exercise, but I disagree with some of the individual numbers. You're probably pretty close, though, on the total payroll.

Mike Schmidt was THE HIGHEST PAID PLAYER in all of baseball when he signed a new contract in 1980(I think). Pete Rose was brought in as a free agent - for big bucks.

And, lest you forget, they received a great deal of criticism from many in the baseball community for awarding that contract to Schmidt, as many viewed it as excessive.

But, that was under an ownership group that actually cared about winning and keeping it's best players.

For those of you born since then, the GM was Paul 'The Pope" Owens, a consummate BASEBALL man. Oh...and the team's scouting department was top notch.

Now, we have an ownership group that....................

How does the "minor league" Rule 5 draft work?

I see on that the Phils took 2 minor leaguers in that part of the draft. Surely they are not required to be kept on the 25 or sent back.

From the district: Thanks! If Baldelli hits 25-30 HRs some day I'll say that I was wrong. And if he doesn't you can say you were wrong.

ricky: Here are 2 negative things I said about Baldelli: His OPS aginst RHP is below average. I don't think he'll ever hit 25-30 HRs. I don't know how that translates into hating the guy. I think he's a pretty good ballplayer who can get better. A consistent .300 would offset his failure to walk and I think he's got that potential.

On Feliz, I think he's one of the most harmful offensive players in baseball and would hurt the Phillies, but I don't hate him. He's that good-field, no-hit thirdbaseman that you think helps a team win in a tiny ballpark.

Hope: No, the minor leaguers don't have to stay on the 25.

UD Hens would know that the owners cared back then. Ruly Carpenter was the owner and, after he sold in 1981 to "Them", he became quite the benefactor of the UD athletic program.

Rose signed in 1979 somewhere in the $800,000 range. It was the richest contract in baseball before Schmidt's.

AWH - You are right about Pete Rose, he signed as a free agent in '79 for big dollars on those days. I think he was paid just under $1MM per year. Schmidtty became the highest paid player in 1985 at $2.1MM per year. I guess you can assume he was among the highest paid in 1980 also, probably the equivalent of A-Rod money today.

the good thing about blackley is his wife is a playmate

imagine her and anna benson in the stands together, that would get some fans in the seats

Hamels' wife was in playboy as well, so at least they have that going for them.

Mike H - Yes, the Bob Carpenter Center and other projects were spun from Ruly and family. I've been fortunate to meet him and family members on a couple of occasions - an extremely nice people.

By the way, the Fightin' Blue Hens play Southern Illinois in the Div I-AA semifinal playoff game on Saturday at 4 PM on ESPN. Who needs Bowl games when you have a real playoff system. Go Hens!

Mike H - Yes, the Bob Carpenter Center and other projects were spun from Ruly and family. I've been fortunate to meet him and family members on a couple of occasions - extremely nice people.

By the way, the Fightin' Blue Hens play Southern Illinois in the Div I-AA semifinal playoff game on Saturday at 4 PM on ESPN. Who needs Bowl games when you have a real playoff system. Go Hens!

Oops..Sorry for the double post!

Nice to know that the Carpenter's contributions still lead to playoff appearances.

These are the largest historical salaries in baseball prior to Rose.

1979 $1,000,000 Nolan Ryan Houston Astros
1981 $2,000,000 Dave Winfield New York Yankees
1985 $2,130,300 Mike Schmidt Philadelphia Phillies
1986 $2,800,000 George Foster New York Mets
1990 $3,000,000 Rickey Henderson Oakland Athletics
1991 $4,700,000 José Canseco Oakland Athletics
1992 $5,800,000 Bobby Bonilla New York Mets
1993 $5,975,000* Ryne Sandberg Chicago Cubs
1995 $9,237,500 Cecil Fielder Detroit Tigers
1997 $10,000,000 Albert Belle Chicago White Sox
1998 $14,936,667 Gary Sheffield Florida Marlins
2000 $15,714,286 Kevin Brown Los Angeles Dodgers
2001 $22,000,000 Alex Rodriguez Texas Rangers
2005 $26,000,000 Alex Rodriguez New York Yankees

A few guesses on what the Phils end up doing, to finish up their team. Some are just WAG's, but at this point, its the best we can go on.

1. They will take a flyer on a injured starting pitcher (likely Benson). Probably for a small amount of time, that is incentive-laden.

2. Will trade Helms to Florida. The Phils will get a reliever (how about Logan Kensing?) in the deal.

3. Will trade Madson for a 3B, likely Crede.

4. Dobbs/Werth will be the platoon in RF. Crede becomes the everyday 3B. A 5th OF (with speed) will be signed on the cheap. A bat can more easily be added (if needed) during the season next year if there isn't enough punch with the lineup that will be used.

5. Jaramillo will become the backup catcher to Ruiz. Coste (if he makes the team) will be as a "Helms-type" utility player (3rd catcher, pinch-hitter, backup at 1B).

6. There will be plenty of options for the last spot in the rotation (assuming Hamels, Myers, Moyer and Kendrick as the top 4 guys). Benson, Happ, Blackley and Youmon will all be in the running, with Benson the likely winner (health permitting). Carrasco and Outman will be waiting in the wings at AAA, if/when needed.

7. The pen will be Lidge, Romero, Gordon and Kensing, with Zagurski, Bisenius, Castro, Mathieson, Durbin, the losers of the 5th starter competition battling for a couple of spots (and maybe somebody else I am forgetting right now).

dennyb: Where do you see Eaton in that lineup then?

When talking about the Phillies dealings in the Rule 5 Draft, gives quotes from "Philadelphia General Manager Ed Wade."

Jack: I understand teams fascination with Prospects. Yeah, I get that. I know thats where, MLB Players come from. You don't have to be condescending.

I don't understand how a deal, that has PROPSECTS ONLY one side, gets you 1 MLB All-Star, and another one who could be an all-star, but still Good MLB Player.

Most times i get Prospects on side/proven talent on the other. I don't get it in the Tigers/Marlins deal, except from the standpoint of, they want to be as cheap as possible. But thats also why they don't have any fans, and why they don't generate alot of revenue. Because they never keep their players.

Also, you have to have people who can compete NOW, along with guys who can compete in the future. I just don't get how their wasn't at least 1 or 2 major leaguers in the deal, along with prospects

mm: Andrew Miller has pitched in the major leagues for a contending team, albeit a small amount of innings. Cameron Maybin will probably start in CF for the fish, so they are ready to compete NOW. 2 years ago Hanley Ramirez was considered a prospect, they plugged him in, and he was good right away.

Contending teams aren't going to give up proven talent- the point is they are trying to win now, so why would they give up someone like Granderson/Guillen or others who can help them now? From the other side, why should the Marlins keep their players? A common myth is that players get better as they get older. Probably as often as not, players are at their best their first few years- Ryan Howard strikes me as someone who is probably at his peak RIGHT NOW, which is why the team is understandably reluctant to lock him up long term. Dontrelle Willis certainly looks like he is the same way- like Doc Gooden and Valenzuela, and myriad others before him. Of course, someone like Jimmy Rollins is the opposite. There are a million examples for each type of player- my point is that not every player is going to get better. Understanding that, it makes financial sense to use a lot of young players for cheap and let them go when they being to get expensive, because its just as likely they will decline or, at the least, not improve production-wise enough to counter their extreme rise in salary. (I have opened an enormous can of worms with this paragraph, and my guess is that incredibly sophisticated baseball people in front offices get paid lots of money to study this sort of thing. This is only an opinion of mine, and I wish that I had the time and/or resources to study it in depth- for example, if I worked for a front office)

Finally, I find it hard to criticize the Marlins too much for this strategy, considering they have won the World Series twice in the last decade. The first time, they blew up their team, got ridiculed for it, and built a farm system that won them a second time. They are in the process of doing that again, and we might wanna give them the benefit of the doubt.

I do understand your point from a fan's perspective, that it must be tough to grow attached to a player like Cabrera or Willis only to see them let go. However, it makes sense from a baseball/financial standpoint.

Jason does a post on the Rule 5 draft and doesn't mention that in the minor league portion that took Some Dude and Some Other Dude?

Some dudes just don't get the respect they deserve...

Jack: Good post. This deal will pay off handsomely for the Marlins within 5 years.

UD Hens/Mike H: Let's please not forget that Channel 17 kicked in a hell of a lot of money on the Charlie Hustle signing. I don't know the exact figure but it was certainly over 6 figures a year. Channel 17 was like the YES Network/NESN before either of those places existed. Also, while we are creating an alternative narrative of Phillies history, let's not forget that the Carpernter family bailed after the Braves signed UL Washington to a 5 year $3.5 million deal... and they said salaries are getting crazy.

Judging by the Marlins' track record in acquiring prospects, they do deserve the benefit of the doubt. It isn't the same as the Phillies getting four styrofoam blocks for Abreu; they get quality back because they put themselves in a position to trade from advantage. They'll probably be a competitive, interesting team team to watch if anyone bothers doing so. All the same, there is no doubt that the Marlins have become the new Expos, and fans there can't really be blamed for not wanting to emotionally invest in players who they know will be gone as soon as they get good. It's a terrible situation which just drags on and on. They ought to make Youppi the mascot, give away airhorns, and build a giant phallic tower to arch halfway over the stadium just to complete the scene.

MPN: don't make it *too* alternate. It was Claudell Washington who signed the Carpenter's Point of No Return contract. U.L. was the guy with the toothpick.

Remember during the 1980 World Series when Joe Garagiola warned kids to "don't ever do that with the toothpick!" when U.L. came up to the plate? Hilarious...

The other insane signing at the time was Garry Templeton with the Padres. This bothered Larry Bowa (shocker!), who was a much better shortstop at the time, and Carpenter knew signing Bowa to a contract would be along the lines of the Hundred Years War.

Mea culpa, mea maxima culpa. It was Claudell. My apologies. In London for work, a few beers, a bad internet connection... and I realized my mistake after a few minutes away. Still, with that exception, I stand by my original post.

CJ - and Some Other Dude can play Some Other Position, too!

Doc Justice:
you mean they don't say "Ed Wade II: the Sequel"?

dennyb -
I still think Gillick's holding out for the possibility that they'll non-tender Crede and he can get him in the bargain bin.

I mentioned this on the Phillies message board earlier, but wanted to throw it out in this forum too. The Cardinals released So Taguchi. I've always been impressed with him and thought he would make a terrific 4th or 5th outfielder. He is a solid defensive player who could find a niche as a late inning defensive replacement. Offensively he is a career .283 hitter with just 177 strikeouts in 1,267 AB's. His OBP is less than ideal at .338. Again, I am advocating signing him as a back-up player. Any thoughts?

Jack: Thanks for your well-thought out response. I get what you are saying. I was having more a knee-jerk reaction to the whole thing.

Part of that is probably just the fact that the phillies ignorance towards their draft picks the past few years(2002 and onward) has left them the inability to make trades such as those, or really, any good trades at all.

Taguchi is the typical phils move and i wouldn't be surprised to see that potentially happen. Seems like we have about 5 OF's who all have the resume to fill the 4-5th OF roles. WHich makes absolutely no sense at all!

Taguchi serves no purpose; we need a lefty OF not a righty, and he's a substantially below average hitter with a career 89 OPS+. plus he's going to be 38. 38!

don't want to hear any more talk about Inge, glad to see that the Phillies feel the same way. a .688 OPS? for more than $19M guaranteed over the next three years? that's worse than Pedro Feliz.

I didn't see this posted anywhere, but it looks like the Mets are starting to speak up about Santana. is Rosenthal's report. is the ESPN report with the GM saying "'We have some pretty good prospects," general manager Omar Minaya said. 'We have the players.'" It also has the Minaya expressing interest in Bedard, Haren and Blanton.

Is this to pacify their fans or does Minaya actually think he can pull one of those off? And if he does, how does it affect the Phils plans?

I'm with ae. At best Taguchi is a 5th outfielder. He's a definite upgrade over Roberson, but I'd rather see someone younger and with some upside potential fill that role.

On Crede, he's worth a look on a non-tender, but I wouldn't trade anyone for him. He's a lifetime .259 hitter with poor OB. His career OPS+ is 92, which is pretty weak. He'd be better than Feliz, but not by a lot. He turns 30 in April and has had back problems. I just don't see much upside here. He'd just be a stopgap until the Phils could get a quality player at the position.

Clout, I'm also not a huge Taguchi fan and I agree that Crede is just a stopgap. Since the Phils already seem set on a platoon situation at third and the bench is weak yet again, what about a stab at Mike Lamb? Sure, he's an awful fielder, but he'd be a nice LH bat off the bench. What's he worth? 3yr/12 mill?

DC - Pacify the fans. He was getting beat up real good on WFAN, the Post, and the Daily News.

While I'm at it with awful fielders, why not a flier on Cliff Floyd to platoon with Werth in RF? 1 yr/3 mill, maybe w/ an option? Career 119 OPS+, 102 OPS+ in '07.

On the pitching front, how about a houston revival bullpen with Dotel? 3 yrs/18 mill?

Mike- I think you're right, but I also think that he's signficantly uncomfortable with his current roster, especially pitching and uneasy with his job most likely hinging on this season.

All their fans want is a young ace. That's all MetsBlog and the papers talk about. Ace, ace, ace. See what happens when you're spoiled? Omar can't deliver. Hell of a problem to have. Glad the Phillies don't have a problem with their ace.

Clout, I give up, who do you think we should get for third. Honestly I will be happy with ABH (anyone but helms) right now. So I guess my list (of people within reason) is:

Charlie Manual

Add Glaus to the list. He maybe radio active but he made it thru the metal detector.

MAS - Floyd, who at his best would make a fine platoon partner, has really begun to slip into the oblivion of "late in his career." Look at the track of his numbers the last couple years. I do not believe he's ever coming back.

Andy - there's no doubt Floyd is on the decline, but I would argue that he's closer to the ideal stage for a platoon role. He's likely league average now. And, to be fair, Floyd was a very good hitter for a number of years. His OPS+ track record goes '01 - 149, '02 - 141, '03 - 134, '04 - 110, '05 - 126, '06 - 88, '07 - 102. For '08, bill james has him at 300 at bats, .269/.359/.459. To me, if 1yr/3mill is the deal, then it seems like a good platoon idea, especially if Jenkins is too pricey for Gillick. And, as stated, I've thrown fielding out the window for this hypo. Thoughts?

Andy - there's no doubt Floyd is on the decline, but I would argue that he's closer to the ideal stage for a platoon role. He's likely league average now. And, to be fair, Floyd was a very good hitter for a number of years. His OPS+ track record goes '01 - 149, '02 - 141, '03 - 134, '04 - 110, '05 - 126, '06 - 88, '07 - 102. For '08, bill james has him at 300 at bats, .269/.359/.459. To me, if 1yr/3mill is the deal, then it seems like a good platoon idea, especially if Jenkins is too pricey for Gillick. And, as stated, I've thrown fielding out the window for this hypo. Thoughts?

v. RHP - '07 .281/.370/.422
v. RHP - career .281/.368/.491
v. RHP - '07 - 103 OPS+
v. RHP - career - 104 OPS+

seems like a value village pick to me

Ricky: I'm not a big fan of Helms, Dobbs, or platoons in general. But, for sure, you could do much, much worse. Helms basically had one of the worst seasons of his career & is likely to be significantly better at the plate next year. Dobbs was a fairly consistent hitter in the minors and is likely to be about the same in 2008 as he was in 2007. As bad as he was last year, Helms had a respectable .791 OPS against lefties; Dobbs had an .808 OPS against right-handers. Of course, neither can play defense and, even in a strict platoon, each will still have some ABs against pitchers of the same hand. But, still and all, this is hardly a case which cries out for an "anyone but Helms/Dobbs" solution.

Of the guys on your list, the only ones who would actually be upgrades would be Kouzmanoff (who is one of the top prospects in all of baseball & is not going to be traded) & Encarnacion, who would be a modest upgrade but would require us to give up something fairly substantial.

I'd love to upgrade at third base but I'm not in favor of a switch just for the sake of making a switch. Just because a situation is less than ideal does not mean that it can't get worse.

He's definitely a better choice than So "What" Taguchi; but I would wait to negotiate with him until after the Mitchell report is out.

Ricky: Obviously some guys on that list are more expensive than others. The guy I like best is the guy you ranked #1: Encarnacion. After that I'd go Stewart, Headley, Ensberg, Koskie, Lamb, Crede. None of the others you list (Feliz, Inge, Mora) would be better than Helms/Dobbs.

MAS: I think Lamb can help the Phillies. His numbers the past 2 years are pretty damn good and I can live with the bad glove with that production.

If you grab Floyd, you have to find a caddy as well. He's about as broken down as they get. I can't imagine any team counting on him to do anything but pinch-hit.

BAP: I like Kouz and think he will be a solid regular for many years with good pop, but the reason I didn't list him in my response to ricky is I don't think he'll be a thirdbaseman much longer. His glove is almost as bad as Braun's. Both will end up in LF.

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EST. 2005

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