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Thursday, December 13, 2007

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J - great icon up at the top haha. Is that Jose Canseco posing in the picture??

no, that's David Bell

It's comforting to know no Phillies should be on the list; and if this leaked list is the real thing, that'll confirm it.

But how must Cardinal fans feel? Their once franchise player, current franchise player and feel-good story all on the list. Of course, they probably would forgive, cause they're in Heaven.

Of course, this is stll all unofficial.

if that email list is true, is Mark Prior still a desirable free agent? should PG make a push for him knowing his history now?

Reed: no, that's David Bell

Line of the day...congrats

MLBTR has that list from the last thread as a sourceless rumor from last night. So not necessarily factual.

Yeah, I'd assume most of those names will be on the actual list, but I'd take it all with a grain of salt.


Jason Michaels would be my only Phillie guess.....

CNBC's bottom line just ran the same higher profile names

Let's not forget this is just a sampling of players who have been linked via Mets clubhouse attendant who cut a deal with the government to squeal.

This all reminds of a "conspiracy" story as Jeff Bagwell the lead character which I read online in 2004 which appears fictional but could have some real teeth as it is pretty believable.

Here is the link:
http://asher.baseballevolution.com/bagwellconspiracy.html

i agree Malcolm, if that list is accurate, this is a dark day in St. Louis. i'm assuming they've processed and put to rest the news of McGuire and Ankiel, but Pujols is a shocker. i wonder if any Cards fan focus their allegiance on the favorite son and become Ryan Howard Phillies fans?

Dykstra was on 'roids? No way, dude.

Bell and Nunez (?) (!) are the only reported names with a Phillies link. Clearly both have been virtual wastes of space and not on the juice when they "played" here, though.

It's somewhat refreshing to see no other local names.

http://www.wnbc.com/sports/14845845/detail.html

JB...the Bagwell piece is an interesting read and confirms what my source (former Phil-spent time in the Atlantic League) told me about his days on the Astros...not here to start rumors, fuel the fire, etc but i mean i guess its apropos on a day like this....

maybe I'm naive, but Pujols does--well, not quite shock me, but it really does surprise me.

Jason, you're right, but I can't believe this is the last we'll see of this.

If anything, Saint Louis will be hit hardest, and Boston will stand behind their man in Tek. Of course.

Other than that, the slew of guys all had their heydays in the mid- and late-90s. The fact that Dante Bichette is on the list must kill his worth; we all thought it was merely Coors Field that made him good.

Dykstra is really no surprise at all.

Pujols is a big surprise becasue he was the guy baseball was hanging their hat on

Now we know how Abraham Nunez managed to hit 5 homeruns in 2005.

This doesn't mean that no Phillies took steroids, just the their trainers didn't snitch and/or the evidence was strong but not strong enough to survive a court challenge.

You guys also forgot the 3rd Phillie on the list : Batman (Jose Offerman). And Ryan Franklin. Looks like we got the shitty roid users.

This should help Bonds' hall case. Before this, people could say he was one of the few who had been proven to use steroids, etc., but there's no way the BWAA keeps media darlings like Clemens out, too.

JW - Agreed to a point but the names are the least important part of the Mitchell report really. Who is actually blamed is more important in the short-term and in the long-term if baseball actually enacts the policy recommendations made by the Mitchell report such as moving to randomized testing and using a legit neutral third-party vendor to adminster/run the test.

No more of his "wink-wink" bs between MLB and the players' union.

Will these players be suspended per baseballs new rules?

From Buster Olney on ESPN

"Was the idea of a Mitchell investigation a good idea?

Would it have been better for the commissioner to simply stand up, in March of 2006, and acknowledge mistakes and move on, rather than paying tens of millions of dollars to air a small portion of the sport's dirty laundry?"

I have been hearing this shame foolish notion for week now. In the ideal world, there are a number of things that should take place but this is reality.

COMMISSIONS ARE ALWAYS APPOINTED TO HANDLE THE DIRTY WORK AND PUBLICALLY AIR PAST MISDEADS. It goes across the board in America from politics to business to religious organizations. It is ideal - no but in many cases something more legit comes out of it in the end.

Actually, the most interesting name to me is Darryl Kile. People just don't drop dead at age 33. One wonders . . .

Wow, Glaus twice!

Buster, yes it was because the fans who support the BS contracts deserve to know.

On another note, I was watching Tom Brokaw's 1968 on the History Channel last night and the average MLB salary in 1968 was $20,000.

Are we sure that is our Abe Nunez, or the even worse one who retired a few years ago.

I'm also surprised Dyksta is on there. Not because I don't think he did steroids, but because he has been retired for so long. He has to be the player most removed from the game on that list.

And Jason, baseball will survive this but there are some pretty major names on there.

That Nunez could be the other Abe Nunez, the outfielder. This is a pretty lame list. The majority have already been linked to 'roids (Gonzalez & Bichette are old news) in published reports and/or Canseco's book over the years. Also interesting that most of them are out of baseball. The big surprise is Pujols.

the twins have signed Adam Everett. let the non-tendered bonanza begin...

I'm already bored with this. I'm sitting on a whole list of minor league signings to report. Two words: Vic Darensbourg. Discuss.

If anyone is sick of "the list," this is a really good blog post about Gillick's 1995-99 Mariners.

Basically, those teams had a ton of superstars, but never won more than 90 games. Remind you of anyone?

http://joeposnanski.com/JoeBlog/2007/12/12/the-most-underachieving-team-ever/

The WNBC link posted earlier in this thread now says that baseball officials are refuting some of the names on the list. "A high-ranking MLB official said there are several errors in the list provided to WNBC.com by two sources..."

Those are probably the names that need to be redacted because they are currently playing/violates drug testing currently in place...Pujols and Clemens, anyone??? Sucks for them.

Funny thing about Adam Everett is that, when you ask sabermetricians, they'll tell you Miggy Tejada is only worth one win more. Yep, defense matters.

why does TypePad think my post is spam? anybody else ever have this problem?

Cube, yes.

KDON, you're right, they should have stated which Nunez.

Yeah so here's the list of Phillies so far:

Nunez- still not sure which one, will give benefit of doubt (for now)

David Bell- most likely during his time with the Phils- this one is most likely to come back to the Phillies

Ryan Franklin- caught before his time here, the phils gave him a chance to bounce back but he blew it

Lenny Dykstra- confirms what many always thought, most likely his '93-95 era, a real embarassment to the Phils and a possible condemnation of the 1993 WS team (remember Smoltz accusation of this?)

Jose Offerman- very short tenure here, not likely to affect Phils

Jason Grimsley- well past his ancient history with the Phils, already well documented

Paul Byrd- most likely during his good year in Cleveland, maybe it helped his back problems...

Also of note, we had Nomar's brother in the minors.

Its usually bc u have a certain word or phrase that triggers it

Damn... the Phillies can't even take steroids correctly! All of the players with a recent Philly link were worthless anyway!

Wow, all of my predictions on the list were right except for Chad Paronto. I'm glad Clemens is on that list. I recall taking some heat for saying that he was on roids.

Back on to the Phils:

Do you Gillick would have the balls to make the "small splashes" comment at the Winter Caravan meetings? I highly doubt it.

like "hostage" maybe

Dave X: Yeah... that is interesting. Especially considering Everett is one of the worst hitters in baseball.

kdon, Gillick was with the Orioles from 1995-1998. can't really blame him for messing up the Mariners...

by the time the Caravan gets rolling, i'd assume most of his moves would be made. so he could at least defend his small puddles then, so yes, i think he'll stand by that.

I count 7 former/current Red Sox as well.

Dave X: defense especially matters at SS, the position that handles more chances off the bat than any other. But until the sabermetricians come up with better measures, it will be impossible to say how much good defense offsets bad offense and vice versa.

I was kind of surprised to see Clemens on the list, but then when I thought about it, it sure makes sense. He's big, bloated, and puffy, and has been for years. I guess his punk attitude can be blamed on the juice as well.

Everett is an insanely good defensive SS, and that's probably an extremely valuable asset on the turf in Minnesota. but between him, Punto, and Harris (I guess?) that's a pretty scary infield from an offensive perspective.

Matt - You really think Bell took 'roids with the Phils? I'd more think he took them with San Francisco in 2002, or even during his stint in Seattle.

I'm 99% certain it's the OF Nunez and not ours. As someone else stated, most of the names on the list were previously associated with steroids and that Nunez ran afoul of the minor league program back in 2006.

plus, MG, i actually support the point he's trying to make with that lame analogy. i don't think giving Rowand 5 years was the big splash in free agency the Phils should have made, nor do i think giving up Vic and/or Kendrick in a package to get Bedard was wise. sometimes the big splashes are just too big.

i am truly torn about the Rowand departure though. his absence will hurt the Phils a lot, mostly off the field. i really hate the Giants for going out and awarding these ridiculous contracts to undeserving players (read: Zito, Rowand) if you think about it, it's really the Giants that have skewed the market for player contracts so unbelievably out of control.

ae, thank's for the correction. I forgot, Gillick only inherits good teams, he doesn't build them.

Still, the problems for those teams are pretty similar to our own - lot's of top talents, but terrible on the finges.

Also, I seriously doubt Punto will start next year. Even the toolsy Twins folks can spot a 52 OPS+ (especially when higlighted by a .210 BA).

If this list is true, then I hope all the talk about keeping Bonds out of the Hall of Fame ceases.

Are we keeping Clemens out too? Pujols?

It will be very interesting to keep track of how people view both Bonds and Clemens in the future. I never bought into the race argument, but if Clemens gets a free pass while Bonds is villified, there might be some merit to it.

Yeah, I think it'd be unfair to keep any of them out. Sure its cheating, but if hitters and pitchers were doing it then doesnt it even out?

SI.com is reporting that they've confirmed the following names:
Clemens, Pettitte, Tejada, Mike Stanton, Chuck Knoblauch, Jason Grimsley, Brian Roberts & David Justice

http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2007/baseball/mlb/12/13/mitchell.news/index.html?eref=T1

Malcolm, point taken. It was his contract year in SF that may be suspect. That helped him get a big contract and it makes sense he might have been using.

Just throwing it out there, but one name i was surprised not to see on preliminary list was bobby abreu, it just seem like his power stroke came out of nowhere, and left out of nowhere as well, and i didn't think it was all the homerun derby.

guess not...

i dont' think any of them will be kept out permanently. they'll just have to sweat it out for a little while and then they'll all get in...

David Bell was a POS his entire time in Philly. This does not surprise me in the least bit.

Take the contract year and add the fact he was playing with Bonds and Jeff Kent, both rumored to have used (though we all know about Bonds). And Kent had a huge year in 2002.

Of course, he could have used when ailing in Philly, but he's been around long enough to have probably used it before.

Being that there's confirmation (according to SI.com) of names that are not on that initial list, I'm wondering how many of those original names are accurate.

Let's take down that earlier list. Several sources are disputing some of the names on it.

here it is:

http://files.mlb.com/mitchrpt.pdf

at quick glance the (ex)Phillies I see are Ryan Franklin, Todd Pratt, Gary Bennett, Jr., Dykstra and Bell

I still want Prior for the Phils!

although I'm sure it would have delighted a certain portion of Phillies fans, I never thought Abreu was a likely steroid user based on his stats. he hit 30 HR a couple times when everybody and his grandmother was hitting 30 HR, but for the most part he was more of a low-20s HR guy. the derby gave a lot of people a misconception of what kind of player he was esp. w/r/t power.

it's not at all unheard for a ~20 HR guy to turn into a ~15 HR guy when he hits 30+ (guys like Bernie Williams or Bobby Murcer or Andy Pafko, after looking around on BRef for a few).

Damn this guy Mitchell really does like to hear himself talk. Just give us the names big guy!!

hey, speaking of Nook Logan...

it might be quicker just to read the whole 300+ page report

Thank kyle. Looks like Varitek isn't on the final list. Hmm, and which team does Mitchell sit on the board for?

I wonder if Varitek's name was removed, or included on the internet list to discredit Mitchell.

Dykstra is mentioned specifically in Section IV Subsection B of the report. The nerd in me finds this to be an interesting read.

Did anyone else do a search of that PDF to see which names actually came up? I didn't find Pujols on there, among others.

bjp,

Prior isn't on the official list.

Don't forget ex-Phil Bobby Estalella - he's mentioned in the report text as well.

That list is bogus. No Prior, no Bradley, no Varitek, and NO PUJOLS!

Paul LoDuca is HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

Brett, your broker friend's list has been on the internet for two hours...and it's wrong.

I haven't checked everyone, but for example, Prior, Pujols, and Varitek are not mentioned once in the 409 page report.

Hopefully, Jason will remove it.

Searching for Rollins, Utley, and Howard in the .pdf yielded no results that relate to this current crop of Phillies.

I also searched for jackkindregan (9:54:45 AM) in the report. Fortunately, he didn't turn up. Whew.

Phillies:

Todd Pratt
Gary Bennett Jr
David Bell
Paul Byrd
Jason Grimsley
Lenny Dykstra
Bobby Estalella

Man, most of these names are league-average or slightly worse white guys from the mid-90s. Whoop-de-doo.

Mike, I agree, the report is fun to read.

Anyone who actually cares about the issue (and there is good reason not to!) is better off spending the time reading it and ignoring the countless words wasted by sports columnists in the next few days and weeks.

all of those names are on the list, idiot

LOL. That was the first thing I did too: typed in the names Rollins, Howard & Utley & hit search.

The most interesting thing about the report, to me anyway, is this section:

"Allegations of Advance Notice of Tests"


It says a lot about Bud Selig's attempts to "clean up" baseball.

Yeah - who would've thought Paul LoDuca. I mean, come on. The guy's as clean as can be, and he's a great guy!

How about the two big out-of-nowhere stories of 2007 both deflating with this report? (Cust and Ankiel)

from the section "Information Regarding Purchases or Use of Performance Enhancing
Substances by Players in Major League Baseball"
Lenny Dykstra
David Segui
Larry Bigbie
Brian Roberts
Jack Cust
Tim Laker
Josias Manzanillo
Todd Hundley
Mark Carreon
Hal Morris
Matt Franco
Rondell White
Roger Clemens
Andy Pettitte
Chuck Knoblauch
Jason Grimsley
Gregg Zaun
David Justice
FP Santangelo
Glenallen Hill
Mo Vaughn
Denny Neagle
Ron Villone
Ryan Franklin
Chris Donnels
Todd Williams
Phil Hiatt
Todd Pratt
Kevin Young
Mike Lansing
Cody McKay
Kent Mercker
Adam Piatt
Miguel Tejada
Jason Christiansen
Mike Stanton
Stephen Randolph
Jerry Hairston Jr
Paul Lo Duca
Adam Riggs
Bart Miadich
Fernando Vina
Kevin Brown
Eric Gagne
Mike Bell
Matt Herges
Gary Bennett Jr
Jim Parque
Brendan Donnelly
Chad Allen
Jeff Williams
Howie Clark
Nook Logan

from the section "Players’ Links to Performance Enhancing Substances"
Barry Bonds
Bobby Estalella
Jason Giambi
Jeremy Giambi
Benito Santiago
Gary Sheffield
Randy Velarde

from the section "Alleged Internet Purchases of Performance Enhancing Substances
By Players in Major League Baseball"
Rick Ankiel
David Bell
Paul Byrd
Jose Canseco
Jay Gibbons
Troy Glaus
Jason Grimsley
Jose Guillen
Jerry Hairston Jr
Darren Holmes
Gary Matthews Jr
John Rocker
Scott Schoeneweis
Ismael Valdez
Matt Williams
Steve Woodard

welp, i'm the idiot. sorry all

Malcom, how is The Dude not an important name.

Not that it is a surprise, but I think having the MVP of one of only 4 Phillies teams to make the World Series in 80 years is pretty relevant.

In that massive, 300-plus page pdf, where is the list of players cited?

okay, ae provides the necessary list - never mind.

Also, the list just stoked my rememberance of mid-90s baseball. Tim Laker, Randy Velarde, FP Santangelo, Mark Carreon ... wow! What a group!

Now we know why Nook Logan was released I guess.

Kevin Brown is a fairly huge name, and I'm not surprised.

Mike, I thought the same thing, but the fact that the Nats turned around and signed Lo Duca would seem to contradict that.

Ha! According to the report, the growth hormone Bell purchased in '05 is "produced during pregnancy."

That explains a lot.

I don't see Julio Franco's name, so I quess he really was eating 6 meals a day including 14 egg whites for breakfast.

The David Bell stuff is a year old.

Larry Bigbie all over this report. Maybe that's why he decided to play in a different country (Japan).

ae, I missed the LoDuca signing somehow. I guess the Nats can be considered PED-neutral then.

Dykstra is important - never said he wasn't.

I'm trying to find if there's a common thread or team with a lot of these names. Like the '94 Mets or something. It seems everyone was kind of independent with getting the shipments.

I think Logan's release may be due more to the career 76 OPS+ than links to the Mitchell report.

"Dykstra is important - never said he wasn't."

Sorry, must have misinterpreted "whoop-de-doo."

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