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Thursday, November 29, 2007


If the Phils got Mora for a reduced rate and we didn't have to ship anything much prospect-wise to them in return the deal absolutely makes sense.

I'm all for trying to swap bad contracts though- good bye Adam Eaton, hello new 3rd baseman.

i say do it. why not? if it costs nothing and the Os are sending some money and the phils are the only potential buyer then it works. better than helms is better than helms regardless of mora's own flaws.

what are people's impression of Mora defensively?

Did anyone watch the Phillies Phashion Show for the new uniforms? That was weird.

B's Beard (from the previous thread)~

If Eaton is completely healthy (that's a big if), he'll pitch musch better in '08. He could be gone though as talks with Wolf are on-going as I've been told once again today. But Rowand is the key here. He absolutely, positively, without question needs to be brought back. That has to be done first. If it's not, then weed need a big bat in RF before Mora is brought in.I don't care what Gillick says, the offense cannot afford to go backwards. Trust me, I know what I'm talking about in that regard. In that ballpark the Phils need to hit to win.

Just watched the press conference with the new alt unis...I like em.

Didn't Eaton's MRI basically show nothing wrong? Personally, he needs a mental fix, more than physical. He may have nowhere to go but improve, but my hunch is he's the same guy he was last year.

and I'm not a Wolf fan, but I'd rather ship out Eaton and put Wolf in his place. Not both.

I like Wolf, but not when it means we have three lefties in the rotation. You kidding me? Three lefties in our Park?

The only problem with Wolf is that he dosen't throw hard enough. I don't know if he's an upgrade over Eaton at this point. And Wade is looking at him and Lieber. If Gillick wants another starter, he's better get one quick. If not, he'll have to shell out big bucks for a FA which he doesn't want to do. Yes, Eaton's MRI showed nothing wrong, but I do believe he's hurt. The Phils are keeping his condition quiet much like the ChiSox did with Garcia last year.

The more I think about, Mora for Eaton (contract for contract) will get done but it still doesn't solve the long-term problem at 3B.

If Rowand is re-signed and Mora, Wolf, and Farnsworth are brought in along with the Lidge trade and Romero re-signing, then my grade for Gillick in the off-season would be a "B". How much do you think the team will have improved?

Why settle for "stop-gap"?

Mora at third fixes the problem for two years. Other moves, below the radar, would be necessary to fix third long term. Eaton for Mora followed by Helms for Farnsworth and cash, is sounding better and better all the time. BUT, Wolf doesn't replace Eaton. Maybe Lieber is even if it means he's the 6th starter (again).

This is absurd, if we're going to try and trade for someone go after Crede. The sox are considering non-tendering him, he can't cost much and we all know if theres a team that is gauranteed to trade with the Phillies at least once a year, its the White Sox

And while we're at it, why don't we save some money to pay someone above slot in the first round of the draft this year. Savery is nice, but Porcello would have been nicer.

from the district: I've only seen Mora play a few times and he never struck me as a bad defender. I looked at his stats on ESPN and he was 2nd in the AL in Fielding percentage and zone rating, and was 1st in Range Factor. I have no idea what kind of arm he has, but it looks like he’d be a nice upgrade over what we have.


I agree, Crede is probably a better risk to take. But you know the Phils, they always take the easier and most times the cheaper way out. Mora would cost more than Crede, but they'd be giving up on Eaton's contract so it's a wash.

ricky - I'm thinking the Mora/Farnsworth for Eaton/Helms would, actually, be intended to free up some cash. I'm thinking they'd ask both Baltimore and the Yanks to pony up a bit. (Of course, I'm just being hopeful there. Based on Gillick's record it's hard to say.) But we could come out of those two deals with a better fielding RH 3B, a reliever who misses bats and a couple million extra to spend on a starter/RF/CF/draft pick.

Is Crede healthy? If so then why do the Sox want to drop him? He may need a month in Spring Training to prove he can still play.

I assume Mora would be used in a platoon with Dobbs.

If the sox keep crede and move fields full time to LF, then the sox only have on hole in their lineup. If they deal crede, and move fields to third, then they have two holes in their lineup.

Its pretty simple: their keeping crede. At least for this year, unless they shake out something at the winter meetings. Last time i checked, we don't have an outfielder or a thirdbasemen to trade, so i don't see how the sox make that deal.

Mora's career progression just screams out "Steroids." That said, the 2007 version of Mora would be ever-so-slightly better at the plate than a Helms-Dobbs platoon. However, given his age & declining performance, how realistic is it to expect the 2008 version of Mora to match the 2007 version? And would an ever-so-slight offensive upgrade be worth $16M for 2 years? The only way I even consider this move would be if Baltimore agreed to take on half his remaining salary. And even then, it would take some serious convincing to sell me on the idea.

As for the proposed Eaton-Mora swap . . . why would the Orioles do this? If they're intent on clearing out the dead wood & freeing up salary, why on earth would they take on an even deader-wood player with an equal salary? Answer: they wouldn't.

Also: Sox probably in a better posistion to pick up some marignal 4th outfielder, play fields in left and crede at third to start the season, see if crede rebounds, then if he does, platoon him a little bit to get fields refreshed at third and play the 4th guy a bit in left(oh yeah: they have Jessy Owens-thats their 4th), deal crede at the deadline for a legtimate outfielder(or even pitching, if owens pans out), and call it a day.

Though, we are talking about Kenny Williams, so you never know. He could do something crazy(read:stupid)

You're right of course.

But still, let's keep the fantasy of getting something of even minimal value for Adam Eaton alive for a few more moments.





Okay. You're right. That deal is dead in the water.

actually a straight up Eaton for Mora trade would be worse for the Phillies. Equal salary, but Eaton has a higher upside and is younger. Mora is the deader wood. Doesn't mean he wouldn't be an upgrade at third. (Especially if he is league average or better defensively)

The Zone Ratings on ESPN are a joke as they dont account for plays made out of zone, and don't even get me started on Bill James and his Range Factor.

Mora is not even a league average fielding 3b anymore.

From previous thread:
Can someone please tell me why they think Mora would be an upgrade over Helms-Dobbs at 3B? His OPS the past 2 years is WORSE than Helms if you add the 2 seasons together and was worse than Dobbs last season. At age 35, that won't get any better and neither will his defense, which is now just average. Plus he's owed $16M over the next 2 seasons. Not even Gillick is stupid enough to make a deal for this guy.

One last Mora fact: He ranked 10th in offensive production out of 13 AL thirdbasemen with more than 400 plate appearances.

ricky: Bubba Nelson is a 26-year-old career minor leaguer who's bounced around several organizations. He was never much of a prospect and at this point it looks unlikely that he'll see major league time. I believe he's a 6-year minor league free agent.

As for the proposed Eaton-Mora swap . . . why would the Orioles do this?

Because they have a history of bringing in B grade starters like Kris Benson, Jaret Wright, Parrish, Baez, et al.


That's right, the Eaton part is all speculation and does not make any sense from the O's perspective.

Actually, reading the article, it only says that the Phils talked to Baltimore. It combines that with Mora's statement that he'd go to a contender in the East and comes up with the Phils interested in him. They could have just as easily been talking about Tejada.

How about Helms, Eaton and Condrey for Tejada. (j/k - I know we'd have to toss in Eaton's stylist, too.)

"The Sun, citing an industry source, yesterday reported that the teams have talked, but that the Phillies' interests were unclear."

is what it says.

Thanks Clout....I was hoping someone had possibly seen him at Reading and could provide some sort of scouting report...He was a 2nd round pick and at one point was the top pitching prospect in the Braves organization. Everything in the numbers says he could be a legit reliever. I rather have the Phillies re-sign someone like him getting Youman. They're essentially the same age, but its a 2nd round pick vs a 43rd round pick neither of which should be a starter, but one of which has great minor league relief numbers.

Being in the O's tv market I see them alot. Mora is no upgrade. He is just baggage they are trying to unload.Taking Eaton makes no sense. They are trying to get younger,which i guess that would do.May be the only reason they would consider it.Mora is playing OF in winter ball to relearn the position,quote unquote.Dobbs/Helms is better than Mora. Melvin is a great person but his better playing days are definitely behind him.

Not that a platoon can't be productive, but the problem with a Helms/Dobbs platoon is that they suck defensively and every game you will be burning the 2 of them at 3rd because that's what Manuel does and then burns another bench position because of defensive replacement- this season being Bruntlett. That's 3 players being used for 1 position each game compared to 1 in Mora. Also with a platoon is assuming Manuel knows what the hell he's that case you're making an ass just out of yourself, because me- I wouldn't assume that!

Mora is not a difference-maker and as mentioned is really not much of an upgrade from Dobbs/Helms.

However if the Helms/Farnsworth deal is still on the table the end result in getting Mora would provide better depth on the bench & bullpen.

If this Orioles could eat 2/3 of his salary and we threw them Robertson (five of their 6 OFs are LH) would anyone do it?

I'm a little surprised the Phillies are not making an effort to sign free agent third baseman Pedro Feliz who played with the Giants last year (but then I haven't heard anything about Feliz this off season).
Feliz is definitely more of a glove man (better name recognition would probably earn him a Gold Glove) than a hitter but he holds his own at the plate -- some pop, not a lot of strikeouts. Well suited to hit 6th or 7th.
He's also four years younger than Mora, would likely cost the same or less than Mora (2007 salary = $5.1 million), and not cost any pitching prospects in a trade. I think Moyer and Kendrick would feel much better with Feliz manning third than Mora.
I agree with Jason though that signing Mora "has Phillies written all over it." Much like the Astros signing Tomas Perez to a minor league contract had Ed Wade's signature written all over it. I just don't like the writing I'm seeing on the wall.

Whatever happened to the talk of trying to get Tejada and moving him to third?

The only way I would take Mora would be in a trade similar to the one that sent Beckett and Lowell to Boston.

Simply, I would tell the O's I'd take Mora and his contract only if Bedard was included in the deal.

Simply, I would tell the O's I'd take Mora and his contract only if Bedard was included in the deal...

as he says with tongue firmly planted in cheek.

Of course. I have no interest in Mora.

John: Quickie quiz for you: Which player whose primary position was 3B finished dead last in the NL last season in OPS, even worse than the combined OPS of Dobbs/Helms?

I tried advocating the signing of feliz a while ago and got mercilessly bashed. But now that theres talk of a trade for Mora I think Feliz is starting to look better and better. He is one of the best fielding 3rd basemen in the league, and while he cant draw a walk to save his life he has an equal OPS to mora, is younger and hits about 20 hr's a year.

Clout, thats not actually true, The combined Phillies OPS was .688 and his was .708. The point being made is that the glove is an amazingly huge upgrade and would directly help the pitching staff.

I'd be happier if the Phils pursued Tejada and threw him down at third. Mora's best days are way behind him. So may Tejada's, but his upside is still higher, plus his right-handed stick would compliment our lefties nicely.

I blogged about it ( Mora wouldn't be a bad fit, actually, although he is regressing. Nothing more than a middling Minor Leaguer, and we can't take any more than half his salary.

Clout is right, ricky, the reason the Phils 3b OPS is so low is because of Nunez. He specified Dobbs/Helms, which would ideally get an OPS of about 800 but somewhere in the 700s is more likely...

The two main reasons our production from 3B was so bad last year were Nunez and not adhering to a strict platoon. Helms got more ABs vs righties than lefties, and Nunez is just a black hole.

If the Phils can get Mora for a minor prospect and have the O's pick up between 1/3 and 1/2 of his remaining contract, then maybe it makes sense but I doubt the O's will move Mora unless the other team takes most of his contract.

As for Feliz, that is a tough call. He probably would be David Bell redux. Good/great defense but long periods of offensive ineptitude. I saw Feliz about 10 games last year (get free tickets to Giants game occasionally) and he really can rake.

Problem is that the flaws in his swing are so numerous it is pretty astounding. Where to start - slow and long swing, tries to pull every damn pitch, no patience, fails at pitches out of the zone with regularly he has no chance of hitting, and refuses to make any kind of adjustments regardless of count. Supposedly worked on changing his swing last year in spring training and went on to go back to the same crap has supposedly has done his whole career. Mystifies me why teams even bother to challenge him with fastballs.

Basically Feliz is as unproductive as Nunez with a bat except he hits an occasional HR on a mistake pitch or grooves a fastball. Do the Phil need to sign him to a 3 yr/$15 M deal? I would rather roll the dice on a reliever or put it towards a starter.

I don't understand why everyone isn't in favor of a trade for Melvin Mora, which would allow the Phillies to rotate Mora/Dobbs at 3rd and Werth/Dobbs in Rightfield... Also, that would enable the Phils to get rid of Helms (addition by subtraction in my book).
The bottom line is, I think the Phils still need a righty for protection of Howard and Utley, and Mora can provide that. If nothing else, he will at least make opposing pitchers respect the hitters hitting before him more than guys along the lines of Werth, Helms, etc.

And also, Baltimore doesn't want Eaton. Unfortunately, I think we're stuck with him for the long haul. At least there's nowhere to go from here but up...

I would take a chance on Mora IF we can move Helms and have the O's eat some of Mora's salary, although I just forsee this move having "Rod Barajas" all over...go after a washed up "name" of a player, and hope for steady production.

Ideally, I would LOVE to see Tejada on this team. A vet who's got to be hungry to play for a contender. The O's are going nowhere, yet look good on paper every year. Phil's have proven talent, and I think the influx of young talent may spark Tejada to a 20-25 HR/95-105 RBI/280 BA year.

Wishful thinking, of course...

Still would love to get Tejada but if we give the O's a half-way decent prospect, the O's will pick-up a good chunk of his salary. Then we do the Farnsworth for Helms trade and we've improved some and it hasn't cost us much. Then if Wolfie signs which Rosenthal is saying every Senior Philly organization called this week. We still may step up and sign Rowand. Remember the Phils are business men and they understand that if Rowand walks, it is a big PR hit. If Rowand re-signs and we've added Lidge, Wolf, Mora, Farnsworth, I'm thinking we are better than last year. I figure if Rowand doesn't sign, Gillick will go after Tejada.

The worst news is that it looks like the Phils have definitely made an offer to Silva, let's hope it was a low-ball offer.

* meant the O's will pick-up a big portion of Mora's salary

Dear god, no. Mora's aging, expensive, and in severe and likely irreversible decline. Given the opportunity cost in terms of budget, I'd much, much rather go with Dobbs/Helms again; Helms will be better, at least.

Fortunately, Zolecki asserts on his blog that there's no truth to this rumor.

Unfortunately, I think the Orioles are looking for much more in a Tejada trade than I'd be prepared to part with--two top prospects. Maybe if they get reasonable, we could send them one of our second-tier pitching prospects, and throw in a Jaramillo if need be. But I bet somebody makes a better offer.

Sign Lamb, sign Ensberg, trade for Crede, but no Mora.

oh please. a marginal gain at best. not worth the effort, let alone $8 mill/yr in payroll.

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