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Friday, November 23, 2007

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Yeah, K-town State!

brandon watson sounds like pat burrell's new leftfield caddie.

Dos anyone really know which Phillies executive goes through the rummage bin every year at this time and picks out ths junk?

Very sad note: Joe Kennedy dies this A.M. in Fla. per ESPN.

I saw the Kennedy news. That's pretty sad and I wonder what happened.

He was a big man around 6'4", 240lbs. I'm wondering if he had a heart attack. Very sad. It's such a shame for his family too.

I know the Phils suppossedly were interested in both he and Affeldt. Kennedy was LH. That what intrigued the Phils. I was looking at the FA RP list this morning and the pickings are very slim. Thank God they locked up Romero. L inebrink got 4 yrs, 19 million. Also I've seen/herd nothing furhter on the Randy Wolf front.

gr - good call on Watson. That's probably the end of Chris Roberson.

Nice summary JW. Moving their AAA team to Allentown is going to likely going to help the Phils in several subtle ways in future seasons.

Given how many pitchers the Phils used this last season and are likely to use next season (because of some of their pitchers' ages and injury histories), I really hope that Gillick can find even one or two useful "AAAA" pitchers that might be able to give the Phils 10 or 15 decent innings out of the bullpen next season.

That is why I was sad to Geary go in the Lidge trade. The Phils have almost no depth in their bullpen as currently constituted and I doubt that Gordon/Madson will both be able to make it through next season without at least one extended trip to the DL each.

MG: You got it. One overlooked aspect of the farm system is the quality of the facilities. Clearwater and Lakewood have new digs, but the high minors - Reading, Scranton and Ottawa last season - are not ideal. Reading was rated by players as having the worst clubhouses/cages of the entire Eastern League - and there's very little that can be done to change it, although they're planning on expanding the clubhouse I'm told.

I'm not familiar with Ottawa, but knowing that franchise was on its way out probably didn't help. That was a lost season. They were forced to bring in a lot of players like Lou Collier and Pedro Swann. Coca-Cola park in Allentown promises to be one of the best operations in minor league baseball.

Reds signed Francisco Cordero. It's four years, $46M, and an $11M option for 2012. Yikes.

Cordero to the Reds for 4 yrs 46 mill.. strange sign.. very expensive.. Weathers did a fairly nice job for them. What kind of difference will he REALLY make for the Reds.? They are non-contenders. Plus Cordero only got 1 mill more per yr to be with a loser of a franchise.

Saw the Cordero signing and at first sense it make little sense. After second-thought it makes actually makes a ton of sense from the Reds' perspective.

The Reds haven't been competitive for a while and they need to demonstrate that they are serious about contending. That is why they brought in Dusty Baker and signed Cordero. Actually like both moves and I bet they play well in Cincinnati.

As for the Cordero signing, it really makes sense for several reasons (even if it was an expensive move for a low-revenue team like the Reds). The Reds' bullpen has been a sieve since Krivsky became the GM. Now, with Cordero and Weathers the Red finally have the makings of a decent bullpen. In fact, I would take the Cordero/Weathers combo over the Phils' supposed combo of Lidge/Gordon next season. Plus, the Cordero signing demonstrates to players in the clubhouse that the Reds are interested in contending in the near future. Should go a ways to helping team cohesion as Baker tries to build an identity for this team.

Krivsky probably figures that the Reds will be competitive (say .500) in '08 and poised to be a contender in '09 in the NL Central when some of their really talented younger players start to develop.

Who knows, if the Reds can actually stay healthy and find a little more pitching help this offseason, they make actually contend in a weak NL Central next season.

JW - The only thing that the players will miss about Ottawa is getting paid in Canadian loonies figuring that the loonie is trading higher than any time against the dollar since fixed exchange rates were introduced between the U.S. and Canada in 1950.

MG: Haha - I saw that on the news too and thought the same thing. Is it totally wacko of us to apply everything to baseball?

Hopefully the Cordero move allows Gillick to exploit the Reds like everyone else does.

i wonder what kind of package would be necessary to pry Harang loose? just hypothetically. he doesn't seem to get the same pedigree of a Bedard or Haren, but I'd argue he's actually a better pitcher...

Heard somewhere the Cabrera to the Angles deal is close to done, but just waiting on a confirmation of Adenhart?

Anyone else hear this?

Supposedly on Fox Sports but I can't find it.

Actually in regards to the Reds I was thiking of some peanuts for Griffey, as they apparently have a little bit of a glut in the OF with kids coming up.


Would probably be one of the better RH OF Platoon situations we could get to go with werth?

Does anyone else think its worth a phone call?

I can see him being a positive influence hanging around the likes of Utley, Howard, and Rollins.

i found it on fox's rumors section. it doesn't seem like this is almost done though. just more speculation...

DPatrone: Weren't the Phillies supposed to sign Wolf today?

Speaking of minor league players the Phillies have cut ties with CJ Henry, the centerpiece of the Bobby Abreu trade (note that link is two lines):

http://www.nypost.com/seven/11222007/sports/yankees/
oh__henry__yanks_sign_outfielder_336018.htm

If it was truly poor vision that made him so bad at Lakewood then the Phillies minor league administration should all be sacked.

mm - I agree that Reds will probably look to move Griffey probably this year (probably one of the biggest names at the trading deadline) but he won't come for peanuts. Plus, the Reds will probably want at least 2 decent pitching prospects in return.

Do you give up a Carrasco and maybe Outman too for just 2 years of Griffey? I don't.

Suddenly Myers' salary for a closer isn't looking so silly.

The Iron Pigs stadium maybe all well and good, but there's just something about Lackawanna County Stadium and those dimensions (they the same as the Vet was). With their incredible attendance and the improvements that the Yanks have already made (the Vetesque Astroturf has been converted to grass) in their year of ownership, I wouldn't be surprised if the Yankees completely redo the stadium in the course of the next few years. As a former Scranton redisent and Phan I was unhappy to see the Phils AAA affiliate move, but it's great to see the support for the franchise up there, drawing people from fast growing Pike and Monroe counties and New York state.

I look forward to making the trek up to see the sparks fly at the coke factory. I just hope their unis are better than the new R-Phils.

The Abreu deal increasingly looks like it is going to go down as one of the worst in Phils' history. Somehow Gillick mentioned to trade Abreu and one of the better starters (Lidle) on the market and not get a single useful player in return. That is pretty amazing.

Gillick has made a few nice minor moves (Moyer deal, trades to get Lohse and Iguchi last year, Dobbs & Werth signings) and I like his willingness to try alternatives but this team has won in spite of the moves he has made to date (horrendous '05 FA signings, Gordon signing, Abreu trade, Eaton signing, Barajas/Helms signings) - not because of them.

Now, this offseason is preceding one again and it increasingly looks like the Phils will be bottom-feeders after some early action (Romero resigning, Lidge trade).

Hopefully something changes but I will be very surprised if the Phils make any more moves besides minor tinkering such as a 5th starter from the Value Village, a marginal reserve OF, and an additional bullpen arm.


Last thing on Griffey:

- He was a nice story last year but the chances of playing in 140 games again this season are somewhere between slim and none. Damn shame too since he would have gone down as the game's greatest player ever if he had been able to stay healthy once he turned 30.

If I am Gillick, I don't trade two of my best pitching prospects for a guy who carries a hefty price tag and probably won't play in more than 120 games next season.

On Griffey, why not just resign Rowand? Yeah, Griffey's a better hitter but Rowand is probably just as valuable at this point if defense and durability are considered. Plus they've got to cost about the same and Rowand won't cost us prospects, though we would lose the draft pick we get from another team signing him.

MG: You're right of course. The NY tabloids pretty much declared it as one of the best in Yankee history (which it was) the day it was made. It's funny, the only time I've ever seen Jason drop the F bomb on this Web site was when they announced that trade. There were several of us who knew the players involved (Henry etc.) who denounced it that day even as p.o'neil, curt, RSB and half a dozen other Beerleaguers hailed it as a great trade.

Of the gaggle of rejects mentioned in the opening above, only Bernard Watson has a chance to contribute.

I only trade Carrasco or Outman for pitching that we can keep for a at least two years.

Anyone know how good Brandon Watson is defensively? If he's good, he could essentially be our Michael Bourn, albeit with less potential.

Imagine that - Cordero gets 4/46. Hunter gets 5/90.

I don't understand why anyone is surprised. This trend is something clout and I have been predicting for months - rising salaries.

IMO, unless owners collude again, there will be little they can do to stop it, as they compete against each other to win, and their respective fan bases know of the rising revenue and will demand that owners and management "get in the game".

Besides, I read somewhere that today player salaries are a lower percentage of revenue than they were a few years ago. The MLBPA and agents will work hard to change that.

What will the Phillies do to remain competitive? For the most part, signing marginal free agents and losing draft picks because of it doesn't seem to be the way to go, so they seem to have gotten that right.

But what will they do about their own free agents? If Aaron Rowand is any indication, it seems highly unlikely that they're going to spend to keep even their own free agents, like Hamels, Howard, and Myers when his current deal expires in two years.

It's pretty clear Howard wants a nine-figure contract. If he puts up another season of 45+ and 130+, he'll get it somewhere, and both he and the Phillies know it. If he puts up another season of 50+ and 140+ ....watch out ... never mind what he'll get in arbitration between now and then.

If Hamels stays healthy {I know, a big 'if'), then he's going to get paid very well also in 4 years.

Whether Myers is a closer or starter, Cordero's contract makes him look pretty cheap right now, and he'll get a big raise when his deal expires.

As clout said: "The Phillies will either pay up or drop out".


Lastly, has it occured to anyone else on this board that Chase Utley might be the most underpaid player in MLB the next couple of years?

Does anyone know if there are any potential Josh Hamilton's available this year in the Rule 5 draft?

AWH said - "What will the Phillies do to remain competitive? For the most part, signing marginal free agents and losing draft picks because of it doesn't seem to be the way to go, so they seem to have gotten that right."

Disagree slightly about the marginal free agents part. Part of the biggest problem with the Phils has been that they continue to refuse to spend slightly more money for the true impact guys. It is why the Phils ended up signing a guy like Gordon instead of Wagner and Eaton last year.

Plenty of other teams take a similiar approach to FAs too but it doesn't help that
the Phils have also employed the same strategy in the draft since 2002 too. The last draft pick to receive a large signing bonus was Hamels in 2002 ($2 M). Since then, the Phils have been content to draft players they knew would not require a large signing bonus for their draft positions.

This team is living off the high bonuses/excellent drafting they did in the late 90s/early part of this decade. Gillick has had an easy run as the GM because the core of this team was already in place.

If anything, Gillick has almost been stealing money and I am definitely in the anti-Gillick camp at this point. As bad as Ed Wade, I would say you could make a pretty good argument at this point.

The Phils next GM is going to be in a real tough position if the current ownership stays. He/she will have to figure out how to retain the core of this team while dealing with a farm system that likely won't produce much in way of impact players in the next 2-3 seasons.


The Phils' modus operandi has already been to target FA they

ed wade was not as good as gillick. it would be too easy, but not entirely wrong, to say that the phils won the east under gillick and won nothing under wade. beyond that wade had more dissasters like rolen and schilling. gillick had eaton, but wade had ashby. wade was responsible for david bell. all 4 years of him. wade sat on howard and utley until they were in their mid twenties. wade tried to convince everyone that howard couldn't play so he didn't create thome problems. also take a look at some of the center fielders wade sent out there over the years. and don't even start me on in season moves and bullpens. as much as you want to credit wade with gillick's core, you could credit lee thomas with wade's core. abreu, rolen, lieberthal, randy wolf were all acquired by thomas. its the nature of the position that much of the core is there from before. getting the big pieces is easy. the hard part is getting all the small pieces to fit right. picking the can't miss talent is simple. its finding the can miss talent that doesn't miss thats hard.

Mike - Point taken. I was not trying to say that Ed Wade was a good GM during his tenure in Philly and unfairly fired. He wasn't. I just don't think there has been that much of a a difference between Gillick and Wade so far.

Both guys major moves through trades and FA have been very underwhelming and Gillick's record on adding some of the smaller pieces has been pretty damn weak so far. The 2005 offseason was pretty much a disaster (Nunez, Fasano, Gonzalez) and Gillick had as many misses last season (Helms, Barajas) as hits (Dobbs, Werth). Plus, Gillick has struggled almost as much as Wade did to find useful pitchers who are under the radar.

Let's hope that Gillick is able to find a few more hits this offseason on the smaller pieces but I have been very underwhelmed by the moves to date this offseason.

Someone above mentioned the Reds as non-contenders. I beg to differ. They now have a legit closer, and Weathers can move to set-up. Harang and Arroyo anchor the rotation with Homer Bailey ready to step in. Their offense is legit...they can contend in the NL Central. Plus, they have extra outfielders to spare right now along with a cheap Scott Hatteburg to trade for some pitching.

I know many people will not get excited about the minor leaguers we just signed, but I do. Having depth is crucial and signing guys for Triple A that have had past success in the minors and some experience in the majors is a good way to build depth. The real talent is in Double A and below, so let Allentown serve as our "injured reserve" roster.

Plus in the time-honored Ed Wade tradition, Gillick has made some moves that mortgaged the future for the present by trading some of the Phils' better pitching prospects (Gonzalez and Maloney) and position prospects (Constanzo and Bourn) for rental players in the past year.

GM-Carson - If the Reds can deal package Hattebarg or Griffey for another legit starter, than I would say they could contend next year in the NL Central. Otherwise, they just need to many things to break their way.

lekh: Regarding Brandon Watson's glove, it's a good one. He can play all 3 OF positions. I think he has a chance to help as a bench guy IF he hits. That's a big if.

He has speed, but is a lousy base stealer, he doesn't have a lick of power and, while he doesn't strike out much, he doesn't walk either. In other words, he suffers from LoDuca disease (no power, no OB) which means he has to hit .290 to have much value. LoDuca can (.288 lifetime) and plays a more valuable position, but Watson hasn't been able to transfer his minor league numbers (.305 lifetime) into major league success. At age 26, he still might, but even then he's strictly a bench guy.

I know the ground rules are, "don't get too excited about a player doing well in winter ball", but the leading hitter in Venezuela is an interesting case...Jody Gerut. He hasn't played in 2 years because of injuries. He could be a Ironpig candidate or maybe even as high as value village.

Martin: Nice find.

As Jason pointed out a few days ago, Gillick & Wade have diferent approaches. If you gave Ed Wade $20M, he'd spend half of it to bring in a big-ticket player, then spend the rest to bring in 2 or 3 "experienced middle relievers." If you gave Gillick the same $20M, he'd probably spend 2/3 of it to make sure he wraps up the big-ticket player, then he'd spend the rest of it in $250,000 increments, bringing in about 10 guys who no one has ever heard of, in the off chance that one or two of them might make it.

Either approach can work, provided the GM: (1) doesn't miss on his big-ticket signings; and (2) out-performs the laws of chance on his lesser moves. Wade failed miserably on each of these criteria and, so far, Gillick has too.

If you define a "big ticket" move as anything involving more than $2.5M in salary, Gillick's big-ticket moves have been colossal failures (Garcia, Barajas, Eaton, Gordon, Helms, Nunez, Rhodes, the Abreu trade). His Value Village moves have received a lot of plaudits, since they brought us guys like Werth, Dobbs, Romero, & Iguchi. But let us not forget all the misses: Sal Fasano, Julio Santana, Ryan Franklin, Alex Gonzalez, Randall Simon, Jeff Conine, Karim Garcia, Jose Mesa, Pete LaForest, JD Durbin, Francisco Rosario, Kane Davis, Jim Ed Warden, Alfredo Simon, etc.

If you stack up the Value Village hits with the Value Village misses, I don't really think Gillick has out-performed the laws of chance on these moves - and if he has, it has not been by much. Besides, Value Village moves tend to have limited and short-term upside. Iguchi was a good move, but he's already gone. Dobbs & Werth contributed last year, but who knows if they'll do so this year? And Romero went from a Value Village signing to a Big Ticket signing, whose success remains to be seen.

I would also note that a good deal of Gillick's Value Village shopping has come about as a result of his failures when it comes to big ticket moves. The Eaton & Garcia fiascos brought us JD Durbin. The Abreu trade begat the Karim Garcia, Jeff Conine, & Jayson Werth signings. And the decision to sign guys like Rhodes & Gordon ultimately forced them to move Myers to the pen, thus paving the way to bring in half the guys on that Value Village list.

Interesting article re: the Mets interest in Freddie Garcia. I think he's done regardless of the rehab. I'd almost advocate having the Phillies pay his Mets salary next year just to have him in the division to beat up on.

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseball/mets/2007/11/24/2007-11-24_mets_interested_in_freddy_garcia.html

The NY Daily News has the Mets showing interest in Freddy Garcia. Garcia's looking to come back in June and get a pro-rated contract for this season and a potentially have a few more seasons included.

It's amazing that I keep reading articles on broken down crap like Garcia and Colon and I've yet to see anything substantial on Lohse, who's healthy. Is he still expected to get four years? I wonder if that's a little high ...

Too bad about Cordero. I thought he was the best FA on the market outside of A-Rod, and the best use of the 10-12M bucks the Phils have floating around.

His deal is going to make Hunter's, Rowand's and Lowell's, and all the starting pitchers look real bad.

And Gerut is an interesting name.

And wait, the Abreu trade was bad? Shocking. While I think most of it's defenders made the addition-by-subtraction article, it is amusing to think that people actually defended the talent we got in that deal.

What a joke.

I may have defended the exiling of Abreu, but no way, at any point, did I defend what they received in return. It looked like a hill of beans then and it looks like even less now. The Phillies didn't play their cards right, plain and simple. The time to move Abreu was in the previous off-season. Very reminiscent of Wade's situation with Scott Rolen in '02. They waited too long and they made the deal from an enormous disadvantage.

So how does the Hunter signing impact things? The Angels now have four starting outfielders. Would the Phillies consider bringing in Sarge Jr., who could probably be had for fairly little, to play CF? (I'm not saying I want it to happen.) The Dodgers, who'd been interested in Hunter, may now push harder for Rowand.

For those still harboring the Santana fantasy:

"One source told Newsday the Yankees plan to make a "good, strong offer" for Johan Santana and that they believe they have more to offer the Twins in a trade than anybody else does."

Brandon Watson may be the deal of the winter, a young outfielder that can hit with speed. A Value Village star.

The Abreu trade was really a salary dump. The players we received was just to give the appearance of a trade.

noooo! we have too many sarges as it is!

Trading for Gary Matthews Jr. is the worst idea I've heard all winter.

Lake Fred: When you say Watson can hit, you mean what exactly? If you mean minor league pitching, I wholeheartedly agree.

Matthews Jr.? No thanks - especially since he is signed to decent dollars and has the allegation of performance enhancing drugs hanging over him.

I don't get though where everyone thinks the Angels have 4 OFs now. Anderson isn't suited to play everyday anymore in LF and even injuries have started to take a toll on Guerrero's fielding in RF. Matthews will probably shift over to LF and allow Anderson to play DH. I wouldn't even be surprised if Matthews plays in RF a fair amount too to although Vlad to DH more too.

BAP - Great summary. Every GM has more misses than hits but you do a pretty good job of exposing Gillick's general ineptitude so far.

RSB - we did get Polanco in the Rolen trade. I'm pretty sure we would have won a few more games each year if his bat had been in the lineup instead of Bell, Gonzalez, Nunez, Helms. I always thought he was perfect for our lineup because he rarely strikes out. Unfortunately, the Phils decided to play the higher contract rather than the better player and then he was traded for Abreu's friend and criminal Urbina.

While Cordero's contract is long and expensive, it might have been the best use of the Phils' remaining budget dollars this offseason. Yeah a RF platoon of Werth/Snelling? would probably going to be inadequate, the 3B platoon of Dobbs/Helms is below average both defensively and offensively, and the starting rotation would still probably a starter short but Cordero probably would have given the great impact to this team's pitching.

A bullpen of Cordero/Lidge/Gordon/Madson/Romero arguably have been the best bullpen in NL going into the season next year.

Now, unless the Phils resign Rowand, I am willing to bet they acquire a bunch of middling players like Wolf, another bullpen arm, or another reserve OF. It will marginally improve this team but make it difficult for this team to even duplicate last season's win total.

From dalafi over on goodphight - "If there's one area of GM work where Pat Gillick has excelled with the Phillies, it's finding cheap/free talent. In addition to purchasing Chris Snelling last week, Gillick might have panned more gold in signing a half-dozen minor-league free agents, led by outfielders Brandon Watson and Michael Restovich."

Say what? Budget issues and management aside, it amazes how Gillick has relatively gotten a free pass in Philly except for last April due to this team's horrendous starts and their early bullpen implosions. Gillick and the Phils were fortunate to make the playoffs last season or the criticism this offseason would be much more vocal and poignant.

I hope I am wrong but we will see over the next 2-3 weeks since most of the major offseason moves are typically made in baseball by Christmas.

MG: Excellent point on Cordero. I would rather have a team that has one great piece and one weak one as opposed to a team that has all mediocre pieces. A bullpen of Cordero/Lidge/Gordon/Madson/Romero would allow the Phils to run out a bunch of 5 and 6 IP starters, which, coincidentally, is exactly what they have. If a bum like Eaton can win 10 games with the pen they had last year, he could win 17 with those guys.

Prediction: Gillick will give us slight upgrades in the rotation and RF and call it a day. And if Lidge can't hack it as a closer, oh well.

MG: It's a good thing dajafi didn't try to peddle that nonsense on Beerleaguer. Restovich, Watson and Snelling are "gold"???? Good grief!

Clout, sadly I think you are right. A couple of very slight upgrades and they will put their feet up and enjoy the winter. They are happy being just good enough to compete. They don't have the balls to try and be great.

Clout - I agree but you are forgetting Mora. I was just in Baltimore for the holidays and they are sure excited hoping we take Mora. Looking at these contracts and knowing the Phils, I'm now hoping that we can snag someone as good as Wolf for the 5th starter but I'm afraid we'll get Mora, Farnsworth and call it a day. Meanwhile, the Mets will end up with Santana, Kazmir or Bedard -- yikes. Let's hope Outman has a good spring and is ready for the "show"

Winter Manic-Depressive Illness can be a bear that comes up to bite you.

Everyone needs to get outside at the noon-hour to let the Sun strike directly on your skin.

Still, one might never notice that some don't like Pat Gillick.

DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER

Saturday, November 24th 2007, 4:00 AM

The Mets tried to trade for Freddy Garcia last December, but the Phillies made a better offer and got the hulking righty from the White Sox.

The Mets, though, remained interested, and now that Garcia is a free agent, they've called his representative several times to discuss signing him. Garcia, 32, is rehabbing from shoulder surgery on his labrum and rotator cuff and should be ready to pitch by midseason, perhaps as early as June.

"The Mets have shown considerable interest in him, and some other teams, too," said Peter Greenberg, Garcia's agent. "Omar (Minaya, the Mets' GM) has called several times. Omar likes him. The Mets were one of the top contenders when the Phillies got him."

Greenberg said he would field offers for Garcia at the winter meetings, which begin Dec. 3 in Nashville, but he added that they might decide to wait to sign until after Garcia's rehab is finished. Then Greenberg would arrange showcases for Garcia to pitch in front of teams who then would bid on his services midway through next season.

I hope the Phillies do offer him Arbitration, so we get a sandwich pick between the 1st and 2nd rounds, because he is a Type B Free Agent.

We forget that when we gave up Gio, the expectation was that Garcia would have a great year and we would get 2 picks for him as a Type A Free Agent, if he did not sign him to a long term deal.

Alden, you can't be serious.

If the Phillies offer Garcia arb he'll accept, and get a raise over the 10MM he made last year. That for only a half a season's work, on the Phillies' dime, and who knows if he'll even be effective.

You cannot be seriously advocating tying up dollars like that. No one is that stupid.

Never mind.

Has anyone mentioned the Mets and Estrada?

A Player's Injury Status and Performance in his platform year is significantly taken into account in ARBITRATION. Because it is a one year contract.

http://www.bizofbaseball.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=490&Itemid=41

"There are several players up for arbitration who either did not play or played sparingly in 2006. In most cases, the player’s platform year is the ultimate factor in how much a player can earn in arbitration, so these players have a tough road ahead of them."

My Post was about three things, the future getting a draft pick, the past that the Phillies projected receiving a top pick for the loss of Gio Gonzalez, and third that last year and this there are teams who wanted and want Garcia for his 1701.2 IP, 1658 HITS, and Win 117 Loss 76 record.

There is a myth that the Phillies would have been able to see anything more about his shoulder when he was signed. The injury occured during Spring Training. He was lights out during September 2006.

SirAlden - Normally I just get a good laugh from your posts but you are dead wrong on Garcia's injury. From Hayes article in the Daily News on the June 28th:

"The Phillies, as is common practice, did not give Garcia an MRI before accepting him in a December trade with the White Sox for pitching prospects Gio Gonzalez and Gavin Floyd. They relied on White Sox medical staff reports. Nothing unusual showed up in Garcia's spring-training physical, which also did not include an MRI.

Garcia missed his first two starts of the season with right biceps tendinitis. Exams after his start in Kansas City revealed labrum damage and rotator cuff fraying."

Labrum damage and rotator cuff fraying result did not magically occur over night in spring training as you indicate. That is something that occurs over a prolonged period due to overuse during inflammation.

Plus, the White Sox were concerned with Garcia's velocity in 2006 as his fastball had already lost 4-5 MPH on it and he was no longer capable of throwing in 92-93 MPH on a consistent basis. Just because Garcia put up good numbers in Sept doesn't mean he wasn't injured to a degree.

Get your facts straight next time.

Garcia was damaged goods before he even got to the Phils. Maybe Gillick was hoping that Garcia's drop in velocity was just due to a tired arm or that Garcia could continue to pitch through an injury for one more year.

Obviously he was injured more substantially than Gillick or the Phils' medical staff thought and he wasn't capable of pitching effectively. I say good riddance to Garcia.

It does tell me that the Mets can't think too highly of Pelfrey or Humber if they think a broken-down option like Garcia is preferable to either one of these guys as their No. 5 starter next year.

Offering Freddy Garcia arbitration ? There is way too much financial risk he would accept. No way this happens.

Well, looks like DPatrone was not exactly right with the announcement of a signing, but he clearly had the right information...

http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/p...711250386/1021

Any further comments?

Ed9277
What signing are you talking about that DPatrone was almost right on?

The signing of the seven "dwarves" (talent wise - in actuality Restovich seems pretty big)makes me hopeful about Snelling. It may be that Gillick was just filling up Allentown when he signed Snelling and might still be interested in getting a real LH bat to platoon with Werth. (I know, that's my optimist speaking. It's amazing with his track record that I still am willing to give Patty G the benefit of the doubt.)

Alden: I don't care what value he hoped to get from dumping Gio. When your farm system is as empty as ours, it does not make sense to send him off without really doing your homework. Whether or not the MRI would have shown an injury, it just does not make sense not to do it. Gillick messed up - big time - by playing "old boys network" with the Sox. (And therefore did it to us, too.)

Ed: The link you posted doesn't work.

http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20071125/SPORTS01/711250386/1021

I'm guessing he meant this one. Article from today saying the Phils are serious about Wolf, and tried for Kuroda but will get outbid.

I took for granted he meant Wolf - but Dpatrone had nuttin to do with predicting that, since it was already in rumor stages and even in Philly papers

I thought the suggestion that we trade for Gary Matthews Jr. was the worst of the off-season, but when it comes to dumb ideas, no one on Beerleaguer has ever topped Sir Alden. Offering arbitration to Garcia is beyond dumb. He'd accept in a second and if he couldn't pitch this season the Phils would be on hook for at least $8M since the maximum salary cut is 20%.

fljerry: Thanks. That one works. The link is to a notes column that says the Phils have made offers to Randy Wolf and Hiroki Kuroda. Wolf, although he'd like to stay out West, may be more doable because it's doubtful he'll get many (or any besides the Phils) offers.

Isn't Sir alden a Lawyer? Some of his suggestions aren't for a Perry Mason show.
Maybe hes actually trying to start a thread of weird accusations and he will come back with some sort of answer to his suggestions.

Clout
I can't believe Wolf won't get lots of offers since lots of teams need pitching and would take a chance on him like hopefully the Phils will do. The way the article states, "he has lots of friends on team and stays in contact with them". Hopefully at least my opinion that we do get him.

Clout, The 80% rule does not apply to free agents who are offered arbitration. This is only to a player under a team's control (pre-free agency players). Still, the notion of offering salary arbitration to Freddy Garcia is just silly and financially very risky.

If the choice is between Wolf and Lieber, I would take Lieber. Healthy arm, ground ball pitcher, and throws strikes. I am hoping the Phils can do better than this, but Lieber is preferable to Eaton as the 5th starter -- assuming he will take a 1 year incentive-laden contract.

Billy Mac: Thanks for correcting that. Has there ever been an example of an arbitrator cutting a salary by more than 20%?

Clout, I agree. An arbiter wouldn't choose a salary that was less than 80% of the previous year -- as this would likely provoke a grievance from the players' association.

I have to believe that signing Wolf would fall into the category of "seeming to upgrade" the team instead of actually Upgrading the team. He would be signed mostly as a fan favorite and not as someone who will be a great option in CBP. As a lefty, flyball pitcher, he'll make the short porch in left look even closer.

OTOH - somewhere I saw someone (other than the Phils - Milwaukee maybe?) was indicating interest in signing him as a bullpen option. It was an interesting thought - one way to reduce his total innings. But I don't know 1) if he'd do it or 2) if he'd be any good as a reliever.

This is the link to where I saw someone suggest using Wolf as a reliever. On second look, it just looks like someone is dreaming.

http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/11/brewers-looking.html

In re: Garcia
It truly is a shame that between Garcia and Iguchi the Phils are losing out on stocking up on 2008 draft picks. The luck will probably continue with Rowand going to the Dodgers.

Wolf will still get a chance to start for someone next season. Teams are always looking for lefties -- witness guys like Moyer and Wells still starting. At some point he will move into the bullpen and probably be a lefty specialist who pitches into his forties like Mulholland and Cormier.

Andy, That is why Iguchi was had so cheaply. Because of his out clause, there was never a chance of free agent compensation. The Garcia trade was bad all round. With all the love recently for the alleged "gold panner" Pat Gillick -- the Abreu, Eaton, and Garcia deals are three of the worst in the team's recent past.

Andy, why is the dodgers pick protected so we get screwed like Milwaukee did with Linebrink?

We already know that if he signs with White sox that is bad. I guess we hope for Rangers.

Slocs, If the team that signs the type A free agent selects in the top 15 of the amateur draft in June, the compensated team receives their 2nd round pick instead. Dodgers pick 15th and ChiSox 8th, and Rangers 11th, so their first round picks are protected.

Here is the 2008 draft order.

2008 Draft Order
1. Devil Rays
2. Pirates
3. Royals
4. Orioles
5. Giants
6. Marlins
7. Reds
8. White Sox
9. Nationals
10. Astros
11. Rangers
12. Athletics
13. Cardinals
14. Twins
15. Dodgers
____________

16. Brewers
17. Blue Jays
18. Braves
19. Cubs
20. Mariners
21. Tigers
22. Mets
23. Padres
24. Phillies
25. Rockies
26. Diamondbacks
27. Angels
28. Yankees
29. Indians
30. Red Sox

According to MLBTradeRumors.com, here's the top 15 picks for the 2008, which are protected:

1. Devil Rays
2. Pirates
3. Royals
4. Orioles
5. Giants
6. Marlins
7. Reds
8. White Sox
9. Nationals
10. Astros
11. Rangers
12. Athletics
13. Cardinals
14. Twins
15. Dodgers

So close...

Hey Phans~

No, I don't star any rumors. I was just relaying to all of you what I was told via telephone. Think about this. Why would I copy anything from anyone else or lie about anything? I'm not that kind of guy. Hell, maybe I got bad info. I'll take that up with the guy who told it to me. If all of this caused a stir, then I apologize. I thought it might be relavent to pass on what I was told. Non of this came from me nor did I or do I copy anyone else's posts from anywhere. The only boards I post on are this one and philliestalk.com. These are the only 2 that are worth it. In fact, I've previously mentioned that any one you you can contact me through philliestalk.com. I have nothing to hide.

On the lack of a Wolf signing or anyone else for that matter, we all know how the Phils operate. They low-ball almost everybody, then get outbid. We know that's gonna happen with Kuroda and will likely happen with Wolf. If the offer to Wolf was to his liking, he would have signed it. And he still may. Who knows?

Ed: The reason DPatrone had the right info. about Wolf was because it had been circulating in the newspapers for about 3 or 4 days before he gave us his "scoop." In fact, the Beerleaguer entry under which his "scoop" appears was entitled, "Rumor: Wolf Heads Phillies' Holiday Shopping List."

DPatrone's source said, quite specifically, that the Phillies would sign Wolf to a one year contract worth $5M. Hasn't happened yet.

We'll still get a sandwich pick for Rowand between the 1st and 2nd rounds even if the other team's 1st round pick is protected. So, yes, we won't get a high pick in the 1st round, but the sandwich pick still gives us a shot at a top-tier 2nd round pick.

"but when it comes to dumb ideas, no one on Beerleaguer has ever topped Sir Alden."

Sad, but true.

"but when it comes to dumb ideas, no one on Beerleaguer has ever topped Sir Alden."

Sad, but true.

sorry.

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