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Friday, November 16, 2007


I can't wait until A-Rod breaks that fraudulent record.

A-Rod will break that record, and I'm glad he will.

Lieber would be interesting on a 1 year contract. I'd rather try Kris Benson, because he could probably be had much cheaper, but Donut-Eater knows Philly and the Phils know him. Bottom line, we need another starting pitcher that isn't named JA Happ or Zach Segovia as insurance.

Jenkins would be great to team up with Werth in RF!

how about the Mets interest in David Eckstein?

I know it's too soon to say anything, and Minaya could easily swing a major trade for Santana or Bedard or sign a big-name FA. but seeing Yorvit Torrealba and David Eckstein in NY's opening day lineup would put a huge smile on my face.

Somebody on the last thread pointed out that ARod is being offered $27M a year when the Yankees could probably save a fair sum by topping out at $25M -- they're bidding against nobody but themselves until you get down to the low $20Ms. But then, it's to the Yankees' benefit to drive up salaries all around the game, because it gives them a big advantage in going after talent.

If we're going to sign Lieber, shouldn't we wait until about June? He usually sucks the first couple of months anyway.

any Lieber contract should have a weight clause. if it's good enough for Curt Schilling, it's good enough for Jon Lieber.

Before signing Lieber (or Colon) i would want some assurances that he is commited to some sort of fitness program.

I like the big guy because he works fast, keeps the ball on the ground, and doesn't walk anyone, but his increasing injury concerns (after a very durable career) are a big concern.

But he is perfect for CBP, and would come very cheap.

A re-posted riposte to kdon, from the last thread (slightly edited)
kdon - read the last sentence.
All I'm saying is that the best we can do with Wikerson, Nixon and even Jenkins is cherry-pick. Whenever we talk about platoon splits, we're cherry-picking; because the starter, batting low in the order, will get two ABs against the starter and, if his platoon splits are substantially different, will either face the wrong pitcher or will have to be pulled.

And the fact that Wilkerson strikes out more than he gets hits (by a very substantial margin) is not cherry-picking, in my book - it's a deal breaker. He has K'd 20.4% more than getting a hit over his career. (Not cherry picking there.) In his recent years, he has been worse.

And there are reasons Nixon logged less than 700 innings in RF for Cleveland this year.

I brought up Roberson just to say: these guys, who once put up great numbers, are now at points in their careers that they can, actually, be compared to AAAA OFs. I'm not saying we should be satisfied with(much less eager for) Chris to man RF in 2008.

Yeah, as much as Leiber really annoys me when he's looking large and lazy, he is capable of putting in better performances occasionally. And he is (oh so much) better than Eaton.

Of course, even reading his name makes me hungry for, you guessed it.


(And in just 6 days I'll be in North Carolina, the home of Krispy Kreme)

(Hot Donuts Now)

Eckstein's a pretty good player, even if his "intangible" value is way overated. An everyday player middle infielder with solid defense and a 90 OPS+ isn't all that bad.

And at second, he wouldn't be nearly the liability that he is at short.

Lieber + weight clause = mmmm...forbidden donut.

I was just looking over Lieber's gamelogs from last year. had completely forgotten about his crazy 3-hit, 11-K CG shutout against the Royals. by game score, that was the single best game from any Phillies pitcher that year. (I think we would agree that Hamels' 15K CG against the Reds was better, but by game score it comes in second.)

ugh, please don't bring Lieber back. Here's a guy who doesn't care about his conditioning, can't field his position, and whined when he was on the block and then put in the pen. If the Phil's major #1 priority is to upgrade their staff, this isn't the way to go.

I didn't read yesterday but wanted to put in my response to the last thread:

My senior year of high school, everyone had to take a specialized English Class during the Spring semester (ie creative writing, poetry, etc). I took a class called "The Modern North American Novel" which had just been changed from its previous title "Baseball Fiction" due to NCAA Clearinghouse issues (luckily someone else had the problem the year before me). Anyway we read both "Iowa Baseball Confederacy" and "The Universal Baseball Association, J. Henry Waugh Proprietor" and they were both fantastic. I still read them every other year or so along with a short list of other books. I tried reading "Underworld" and I have to say I got stalled a little short of halfway through - I guess I should go back and give it another shot. In terms of writers I really enjoy I love Bill Bryson who wrote "A Walk in the Woods" and other travel books - I highly recommend him, he's hysterical. I also like a Portuguese writer by the name of Jose Saramago; he wrote "Blindness" and "The Gospel According to Jesus Christ" (blasphemous to some people). But with winter here, I'm excited to have check out some of these other books!

I've been waiting for this Bonds indictment for awhile, and now it's finally here, awesome. I hate when people cheat and get away with it, especially when he would have been a HOF'er without any enhancement.


Have you read "Gospel According to the Son" by Mailer?

I think it's one of his most underated books.


I responded at the end of the last post. I see your point, but if you are trying to say that Roberson is part of some undistinguishable mass of players with Nixon, Wilkerson, and Jenkins, I disagree.

The latter three may end up as below to slightly above average players, while Roberson simply sucks. Even at that end of the spectrum, you can still differentiate talent.

And what people may be missing is that if Dobbs is playing thrid, we currently only have 3 OF. So even if you go with Roberson, that still leaves you short one OF.

I'd rather fill that spot with a player who has demonstrated the ability to hit RHP at the major league level than a AAAA type.

YC, nice call on Saramago. I just read Blindness this year, very good.

I definitely recommend giving Underworld another shot. it's one of those books that doesn't always click the first few times you start it, but eventually it all falls into place and before you know it you're 600 pages in. that was my experience, at least.

So now the Hall of Fame will not have the career leader in hits, nor the career leader in Home Runs (until/unless A-Rod surpasses 762). Too bad, but I don't feel too sorry.

It also will not have Shoeless Joe, which is a shame. The non-HOF team is getting pretty good.

kdon -
My point is not that they're indistinguishable; it's that the pool that we're left considering, because we need to be cheap, is pretty poor. At this point in their careers(not over the course of them), they do not look much better than ole Chris. We'd almost be as well off playing Jim Rushford. (Well, maybe not even close.) It's just plain sucky that there's no one that the Phils are likely to sign who will do for the line-up what needs to be done: a solid bat, actually, preferable RH, and capable defense in RF (or at 3B).

The guy we need is someone like Hunter in CF with Vic in RF. But that's not gonna happen. It's off the table. He's too expensive. So, yeah, we need 4th and 5th value village OFs. (Who are slow as snails, or strike out way too often, or probably cannot hit major league pitching over the course of a season.)

The fact that the Phillies are thinking of bringing back Jon Lieber -- and that the idea is not being met with howls of derision from Beerleaguer posters -- is all the proof I need that the Phillies have fully succeeded in their campaign to reduce fans' expectations to almost nothing.

kdon: I'll check out "Gospel According to the Son"

ae: Saramago wrote a sequel to "Blindness" called "Seeing" - I haven't read it yet, it's on my book shelf to read next after I read "The End of Faith" by Sam Harris.

I don't know anything about the Harris book other than he basically destroys organized religion and fundamentalists, both Christian and Muslim. Guy must have a death wish. But I was told that he thinks like me, so its worth a few winter evenings.

I'm tired of all this Bonds b.s. already. He shamed the game, but I unlike others don't want to dwell upon it because there is plenty going on in MLB besides Barroid.


Completely agree with you post. Some are actually accepting Lieber without even howling about it.

The Eaton things scares me. Since his MRI is ok and he'll have all offseason to relax/focus, Phils mgmt probably start saying that he'll easily improve from last year and not to worry. PR machine is working

Steve's Whiskers:
Or maybe, if we're lucky, he'll find some way to injure himself so he can help the team out by going on the 60-day DL.

Actually, Lieber might not be a bad gamble assuming a low dollar contract with lots of incentives. Lieber's agent suggested he had some pride and didn't want things to end the way they did. He might work hard this off-season to prove a point. I'd rather have Lieber for one year at $4M guaranteed plus incentives than Silva at $40M guaranteed for 4 years, which he'll get.

I wasn't around to comment on Bedard... the O's are making it a priority to extend him. Scratch him off the list. They will not be trading him.

Jason, great Bonds pic, by the way. He looks like a professional wrestler. The size of his head on caused me to have to change my monitor settings, too.

I mean, is this really Jon Lieber we're talking about? The guy who has had 2 horrible years in a row & only 2 passable seasons in the last 6? The guy against whom opposing hitters have hit over .290 in each of the last 2 years? The guy who is 38 years old & can't even bend over to pick up a ground ball? This is the guy from whom we're expecting a bounceback? And what's this about his keeping the ball in the ballpark? Have our memories really faded so fast? In his 2 full seasons with the Phillies, he has allowed 60 homeruns.

Lieber is horrible. Being better than Adam Eaton should not be the standard. How about actually finding someone decent? What happened to all this talk about Kuroda? As usual, it sounds like that was just the Phillies teasing their fans. Management believes that if they talk about going after a good player, the fans will believe it's the same as if they actually went after him.

BTW, where has DaveThom been so far this off-season? I am shocked that we haven't had more Coste groupies lauding all that he brings to the table to fill in the deficiencies, that he just needs to be given a chance. Last year when announced that he didn't make the 25 man squad out of ST, his supporters would have had us believe that he should have filled the bullpen holes, while pitching to himself, calling a great game/throwing out runners, while hitting .400 and winning the triple crown.

Now? Not so much. I'm actually somewhat excited at the prospect of seeing Jaramillo.

"End of Faith" is a waste of time, especially if people already think you think like him.

If you are interested in buttresing your own beliefs and feeling good about your skepticism, by all means, read it, but you won't learn anythin new, and you;ll be even less interesting to talk to.

Harris, like Dawkins, starts from the perspective that their point is so obvious, it barely needs explination.

I find it hilarious that after the 20th century, people can actually believe religion is the major source of evil in the world. Someone forgot to tell that to Stalin, Hitler, Mao, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, Saddam Hussein...

...the French in Algeria, Vietnam, Belgium in the Congo, the Dutch in South Africa, England almost anywhere...

My God, management has even gotten Clout to buy into the idea that they're a low-payroll team, consigned to mining the leftovers after all the good players have been snapped up by the real teams. Management has really done a great job selling the idea that we're the Kansas City Royals.

Hitler certainly had some opinions of certain religions...

speaking of the bonds' indictment, did anyone hear Screamin' A. Smith on espn last evening around 6-630 going on and on, yelling and screaming, about how the whole bonds issue is racially motivated (preposterous! absurd! so much ignorance!)??

I mean seriously, that guy needs to friggin' take a chill pill and relax a little. Plus, his "expertise" lies in basketball, not baseball. I can't STAND him...


If I'm not going to get anything new from it, what should I read instead? I'll read anything so give me some alternatives.

Your Conscience

Yeah - Bill Bryson is brilliant. As an American that has spent most of his adult life living in Britain he has great insights into both these countries and peoples. "Notes from a Small Island" is a great read for any Americans that want to know about us Brits (Kdon thats English, Welsh, Scottish and some Irish).

many of those men and countries used religion as a primary tool to purvey their evil.

BAP: lol. Good point. It really isn't acceptable. But several posters here have done the math and the Phillies aren't going to spend more than another $8M or so on free agents. So the challenge is to figure out how much bang they can get for their buck. That's why we're talking about guys like Lieber, Colon and Nixon. The small-market Phillies have made it clear they just won't spend what it takes to get players above that caliber.

bap -

I agree with you, not raising the payroll at this point is mind boggling. But some of the most boring writing that goes on at this forum is the "howling at the moon" variety that consistently brings up the same tired complaints about management. They suck. we get it. Lets move on.

Actually talking about baseball is a lot more interesting.

Once again management is not doing the right thing or what the phans want. Gillick claims they're talking to Rownad, but we all know how that's gonna turn out. I'm done hoping here. Jon Lieber? Give me a break! Freakin' idiots! I glad I don't spend my money on them. Don't worry phans, they've got you right where they want you.

Jon Lieber = no thanks.
He's exactly the type of guy this team doesn't need (as indicated by last season).

D. Patrone,

Weren't you just saying yesterday deals are in the works?

your conscience:
If you wish to read a critique of evangelical Christian triumphalism from a view other than angry athiesm, I would suggest "The Irresistible Revolution" by Shane Claibourne. He's a Philadelphia fixture by this point, but came out of an East Tennessee Christian conservative family. His take is that people who consider themselves "followers of Christ" rarely follow. He's tried to. It's mostly a biographical story of how he's done that.

Maybe not for everyone, however. (Though it would be a very good read for affluent fundamentalists.)

"The small-market Phillies have made it clear they just won't spend what it takes to get players above that caliber."

clout - The problem is that the Phils don't do the small market thing particularly well either. Beane and Shapiro and the like have it honed to a fine edge, which drafts and develops and uses the players they develop to acquire more draft picks and prospects.

B's Beard~

Yes. That's what I was told via telephone. (I mean I have a pretty good source. If he would allow me to mention him, all of you would know of him. But I can't mention him without his permission. That would ruin our friendship). Then Gillick comes out and says the total opposite. In fact, they would sign Lowell and then deal Helms to the Yanks for Farnsworth and ask the Yanks to pick up some salary since Farnsworth makes a lot more than Helms. Girardi loves Helms and he played some 1b for them when he was there. I mean it makes sense but who's lying here? I wish I knew. I mean I can understand why Gillick wouldn't tell the truth here. You can't as a GM. There are other ways to make your point i.e. "we continue to explore the market". How can Gillick actually sleep at night knowing he's gonna lose his CF'der and go into the season with the weakest offensive 3b combo in baseball? And then Jon Lieber? Come on.

district: I like to talk baseball too. I think we all do. And sometimes it's impossible to do so without a little howling at the moon.

Jon Lieber is the subject of the day. Today's paper mentioned the possibility of resigning him on the cheap. I am appalled at the idea. So what am I supposed to do? My choices are to keep my feelings to myself, write a BS post about how thrilled I am with the idea, or howl at the moon.

D. Patrone "has a reliable friend" who tells him deals are in the works and that we'll get "relief help" for piece-of-poop Wes Helms. *eyeroll*

I just read that the D-Backs may be interested in Colon to the tune of 1 yr/$10MM with minimal to no incentives. If a guy like Colon is going to command that money then Lieber might be looking at something in the $7-$8MM range (I'm obviously just speculating).

I proposed a Wes Helms/Kyle Farnsworth swap a couple weeks ago on my blog, with the Yanks eating a portion of the your friends reading WSBGM's comment section and getting a pretend GM's ideas (pretend GM = me)?

If the Phils spent as much time working the trade or free agent markets as they spend manipulating the fans, they might put together a more competitive team. The MO of Amaro Jr and Gillick is transparent. They want you to accept the insane premise that after a hugely successful revenue year, and after Selig announced uncanny MLB gross revenues of six BILLION dollars (try dividing that number by 30), that the Phils only had a pittance to spend on keeping this team competitive. And judging by the lemmings-over-the-cliff discussion of the likes of Jon Lieber and Brad Wilkerson, it is evident to me that many of you have swallowed the Kool Aid. Please be a little smarter. This is a highly successful franchise which over the past four years has allowed opening day payroll to decline 4% while average team payrolls have inflated 18%. That is a 22% decline in spending. Wake up.

D.Patrone- I apologize if I'm coming off like a jackass in my comments, I'm truly just joking around. I don't believe I'm omnipotent like a certain poster...not to mention any names...but C-L-O-*-T.

Hey, Mike:
How about
"If a guy like Colon is going to command that money then "
maybe someone will trade us an organizational filler piece or two for Adam Eaton?

"Bottom line, we need another starting pitcher that isn't named JA Happ or Zach Segovia as insurance"

Why are some folks so down on Happ? A young left-hander, that can strike out folks (which he ALWAYS has) at every level of the minors, should not be scoffed at.

The guy was a top 5 prospect last year (thought of much higher than Kendrick and Outman) and because he has one semi-down year (mainly because of injury), he now has no business as a 5th starter? I don't get it.

Plus, once he got healthy last year, he pitched very well at Ottawa. He had several starts where he was pretty dominant in the 2nd half of the year (on a team that lost a ton of games). Sure, he can get wild at times. But, most young pitchers fall into the same problem.

The guy was a high pick and has pitched very well for most of his minor league career. If he is healthy to start 2008, give him a shot. Its a 5th starter for crying out loud. Don't waste millions of dollars on old guys like Lieber or whatever washed up pitcher is out there, for a back-end rotation spot. Save some cash (which the Phils LOVE to do) and give this kid a chance.

Segovia doesn't have the stuff (and doesn't strike anyone out). I can see why he didn't make it and may never make it. But, to lump Happ into that category is just plain wrong. Happ is a much better (and has been a much better) prospect all along than Segovia.

Andy: They could use the line that at least Eaton wasn't hurt last year.

Ah, but Mike, we can point to his DL time, and his need to get an MRI; and we could change our offer: all we want in return is some donuts to feed the Leiber.

I'm not saying JA Happ can't be an asset down the road, I just don't want him to be our fallback option for a starter when we'll need one. I don't trust him now, but that's not to say in the future I'll change my tune.

We could counter that MRI was not a medical procedure, but rather an acronym for Middle Relief Imminent.

GM Carson~

No problem at all. I just wish I tell a little more. I even speak to the guy who runs In fact, I'm registered on that site,and it was he who told me about this one. We work for the same corporation. He's in PA and I'm in VA. He's not my source but being here in Richmond, I want all the Phillies info I can get. Also I've even spoken with one of the in-frequent posters here. I make no bones about who I am and love to talk Philles baseball with anyone whose a phan.

Thanks, Andy. I'm not an angry atheist, so I'll definitely check that out!

It's the offseason, teams will say they're interested in a million players. I just don't like when the Phils come out with a "We're not interested in..." statement. I can see they're not interested in paying Arod $27mil, but other guys like Rowand or Hunter, they should just keep mum.

Mike: if we actually get a warm body for Eaton, think they'd throw in the donuts anyway?

Sure Andy, they might be stale though.

If Colon is demanding $10M for a year, that's ridiculous. But that's the market.

And if that's the market, the Phillies shouldn't be so shrewd and start looking at guys they can get at the $8-$12M range, a la, I don't know ... Rowand/Fukudome/Kuroda.

I have to say, nothing looks good in the FA pile, and Gillick said that himself. More than anything, I can see the Phils dipping into the pile for retreads in the OF or IF, but for that starter piece (the one Gillick says he needs), there's a trade wind blowing.

I'll put down money that Kendrick or Outman is outta here.

dennyb: Totally agree with you on Happ. The guy was hurt last year, supposedly is healthy again. No reason to forget him. Segovia was never a serious prospect in my opinion. But Happ is. He probably needs a half season of AAA before he can help, but I'd be surprised if we don't see him in the second half of the season.

Segovia, by the way, is no longer on the 40-man roster, a smart decision.

I'm happy to get back to baseball too, and it's nice to see that even clout is admitting the realities of payroll.

I agree that Happ is being dismissed too quickly, especially by BA. The guy posted great numbers in the minors until last year, and it doesn't appear that he just ran into stiffer competition. If that was the case, I think you would have seen his K rate drop more substantially.

Last year was a step back, but at 24, I wouldn't just dimiss a pitcher who consistently strikes out more than one bater per inning, has around a 3/1 K/BB ration, and has kept his WHIP around 1.15.

Oh, and the guy hardly ever gives up HRs!

Final point: Conscience, I would try Peter Dear's "Revolutionizing the Sciences."

It explains the conflict between science and religion much better than Dawkins and Harris (who are, BTW, angry atheists).

ok guys all this free agent and trade talk is fun and all, but lets put it to bed and focus on the important stuff like darren daulton's book that comes out today!!!
i hear that not only does it have all the secrets of time travel, talking lizards, and the end of the world, but a special chapter on the 2008 phillies! so fear not. go buy the book and rest easy knowing how it all works out.

BAP and Hitman - I totally agree with you. It is amazing how Montgomery and Co. have played the media and fans the past several years. This particular year is even more disgusting than usual though.

Publicly, the Phils saying that they will have a payroll of $105 M yet this probably is in reference to the entire 2008 season and not their opening day payroll which has actually declined over the past few seasons (despite additional revenues of over $25-$30 million).

The real kicker though is though is that Montgomery and Co. wisely view last's year playoff opportunity to cash in as ticket prices and concessions are set to see their biggest increases since CBP opened in '04.

Plus, it should be pointed out that the Phils have had one of the largest average tickets prices in the league since CBP opened and the cheapest seasts in the park have increased from $10 to $16 over the past two years.

So basically, the Phils aren't going to increase payroll/talent yet they are planning to stick it to their fans because of last year's playoff appearance.

I might go to one game with my father next year when I am back in Philly but that is it. I am much more willing to go to an alternative park (either out here in SF or take a road trip with my dad to Chicago or NY) than line the Phils' owners pockets.

Instead of giving a marginal guy like Lohse a long-term deal at $10 M year or signing a guy like Colon for big money - why not sign a guy like Lieber to a base with a high upside and go after an additional right-handed reliever who throws hard out of the pen?

Better way to spend $8 M in my opinion.

I don't see how fans--at least those of us here on Beerleaguer--are getting "played." we're talking about cheapskate options like Colon and Lieber and so on because those are the guys who could actually be playing here next year.

every single poster here knows that management could boost payroll fairly easily. every single poster here knows that they're skimping on draft bonuses. every single poster here knows that our minor league system is more or less bare. but what's the point if we're only allowed to talk about that and not, you know, the actual real world plans of the team that we are supposedly all fans of?

Agreed ae.

I like to think of the discussion as "If I were in Gillick or Amaro's shoes, what would I do?"

Of course, I would love the team to sign Pettite and Cordero, but that seems pretty obvious. It's more interesting (and fun!) to try and debate how to build the team *given the payroll* than it is to construct some fantasy team with a payroll of $140M.

Guess I have conflicted feelings on Bonds. Is he the victim of a witch-hunt by the Feds - probably but he did have a chance to do what Giambi did. It was just his ego that prevented him from doing it.

Plus, I guess it is kind of fitting. Always hard to get an accurate fix on an athlete but Bonds is pretty universally reviled and reported as being a major pric. Talent allowed him to great away with almost everyone but this is one time that hitter HRs won't allow Bonds to remain unscathed.

Bonds probably won't do real time but I could see him getting some jail time though from the Feds.

ae - That's not my point. I guess I am even more frustrated than usual at this team this season. Not as bad as the mid- to late 90s but this team is on the cusp of being a legit World Series contender.

from the district,

I don't think people are howling at anything, per se, as they do have a right to vent a bit. Besides, trying to crunch the payroll numbers allows posters to "play GM", like Carson does on his blog.

A purpose it does serve on this site and others is it give the serious fans the ability to let management know how they feel.

Now, do I think mgmt takes this site as the 'gospel truth' when trying to gauge fan sentiment? Of couse not. But I do think they take a look here from time to time as a reference point. The sentiment on this site usually act as a good 'pre-barometer' on ballpark attendance.

To wit, late last season, single game home attendance took a steep drop of about 8,000/game when it looked like the Phils were out of it - before they got hot at the end and before the Mets collapsed. The general sentiment on this site turned BEFORE the drop in attendance (remember Monty's "don't give up on us yet" plea).

If the Phils don't put a better team together next year than the one they finished the season with this year - and we won't be fooled - attendance will suffer! And you can take that to the Zen!

Besides, most fans realize it wasn't so much the great Phillies team that Giles, Mont. and Gillick had put together that stormed to take control of the division, as much as it was the Mets taking an historically large bite of a maggot infested Big Apple.

I've thought about it a great deal, that is, the Phils' reluctance to increase payroll as much as fans would like. Only two explanations make sense:

1) they are Bud Selig's pets, or
2) they are really convinced they can put a better team on the field without doing it, despite their track record.

RE: Bonds.

There is not "witchunt" by the Feds if he didn't lie to them in the first place.

"Not witchhunt" ="no witch hunt"

BB, that's classic witchunt logic.

Question someone repeatedly about something you cannot prove, and then charge them for lying.

Not saying at all the what Bonds did was noble or legal, just saying that sometimes the overeach of federal investigators is questionable.

ugh, I actually used "witchunt" too.

what a Bonds apologist!

(partially joking kdon)

kdon: I've been a criminal defense lawyer for 15 years & pretty much every perjury prosecution is an off-shoot from some other investigation into conduct which, ultimately, the government concluded that it couldn't prove.

Even though Bonds is a jerk, I do have some problems with the prosecutorial philosophy of taking the supplier & using his testimony to prosecute all the users. Seems to me it should be the other way around. But I guess the U.S. Attorneys could reason that this is different from the normal drug case, since the users were actually the ones who derived the most profit from their illegal conduct.

I doubt he'd be prosecuted if he weren't Barry Bonds but, then again, if he weren't Barry Bonds, he would have just taken the Fifth when he received a Grand Jury subpoena. Bonds knew that he would take a massive PR hit if he took the Fifth, so he made a choice to testify & do so falsely. It's hard to feel sorry for him.

Rumors are normally not true or never materialize, however I find them amusing and it's one of the reasons I love the Hot Stove offseason of baseball. Today there's been next to no new rumors because of this Bonds hoopla, and that pisses me off, because it's doing exactly what I was afriad it would do- take the attention off of player movement and big signings like A-Rod...hell Jose Molina signed today, but barely a blurb anywhere.

Ha, I keep clicking on to see what's happening, and I keep seeing the "jose Molina signs..." story and it's driving me nuts. I guess if I had some work to do, that would be a good distraction.

BAP, you're right, Bonds is certainly not in the clear (pun intended). His arrogance cost him.

He didn't even have to take the fifth. All of the players who testified were given blanket immunity for anything they said; unless they lied.

Giambi, for example, reportedly told the grand jury that he took steroids, but isn't being charged with anything. Marion Jones brokered a plea agreement.

Bonds is in no way an innocent victim; my concerns lie more in the deployment of resrouces by Federal investigatos.

kdon: I was not aware that there was a blanket immunity grant to all players. If that's the case, the Fifth wasn't an option. I do agree with you about this whole case being a misuse of prosecutorial resources. I see steroid use as more of a sports issue than a criminal issue.


I respect your need to vent. We all need to vent from time to time.

I do think you are overestimating management by think that they read fan blogs, however.

ESPNews is reporting the Braves have offered Tom Glavine a contract, probably a one year deal and Glavine said he would be willing to go the Braves for less money than other teams.

The other option, with regard to management statements, is that they actually have plans and deals which depend on a certain amount of secrecy. (I view the likelihood of this option, of course, as just below the chance of Costanzo ever becoming a star 3B.) I would not give up on the possibility of another major signing or two, just because Amaro and Gillick keep talking about signing donut-eaters like Leiber or Colon.

Note as well, that they are talking about a left-handed relief pitcher; with Atlanta sayin it really wants Mahay back, that probably means Affeldt. (At which point I would crawl into a hole somewhere, because I advocated his signing and he'll probably turn out to be a relief pitcher version of Wes Helms.)

naylman - I guess we can look forward to Mr. Glavine coming to CBP a couple times next year. As the Phils run up the score on him, we can thank sentimentality for the small favor.

I have a hunch that there are some decent moves to come, but Gillick's not going to say "i'm about to trade x for y". That would be dumb. Now, i'm not expecting some major moves that'll blow people away, but I think they're TRYING to be a little secretive here and put out decent signals. Giving them too much credit? Maybe, but I think there's more coming.

BB - that's sort of what I was trying to say, and, as you put it so well, was probably giving them too much credit.

(It is Gillick and Amaro, after all.)

(But if they did pull off a Bedard and Tejada deal, or get Lowell and Farnsworth, I would have to stop saying nasty stuff about them.)

(For a while, anyway.)

I think we all just want to see stuff happen NOW and not have to wait and have been burned in the past. For whatever reason, I have a good feeling about this offseason.

Off to $1 beers.

I'd like to think that there is some semblance of secrecy in the Phils FO and that what they say is more or less a smoke screen for the actual truth (for negotiation reasons, primarily). However, it really wasn't a secret that they were shopping Bourn or Vic and look what happened (trying to take some solace in that I never heard the word "Lidge" prior to the actual deal, though).

The vast majority of trade rumors never really come to fruition, but the talk about FA negotiations seem to have a much better track record. That being said, Rowand is gone and I'm nervous about what that means for filling out the pitching staff in light of recent reports.

My favorite instance of an outright lie to blow smoke was Gillick's insistence that the Phils were going to make a competitive offer for Soriano, though.

From last thread on books, Andy wrote: "LF - first time with Childhood's End?" The answer is yes. I picked it up for a buck at a used book store. Ironically, I watched Nova last week about the Sputnik era, so it fits right in. It was a time when the Phillies really sucked big time.

On Bonds, despite the fact that he's an arrogant person that no one likes and he cheated at the game, I don't understand why it is a federal legal offense to take steroids. I think Bud Selig should negate his records and ban him from baseball, but I don't think he should be going to jail.

I'm okay on signing Lieber, just okay with it. I'm slightly more than okay with signing Colon.

Just a note, LF. Bonds is going to jail (potentially) not for taking steroids but for lying under oath.
(Of course, maybe he can work a presidential commutation.)
It is noteworthy, of course, that lying under oath has become standard procedure (and not limited to politics, or one or another party). People will go to any lengths to cover up bad PR, even to the point of breaking perjury laws.

I do not feel sorry for him. He could have avoided the upcoming trial by admitting what everyone knew. But then he wouldn't have gotten his record, and the attendant financial compensation.

Nope - he got his pay day. Now, he can serve time, if convicted, just like I would if I lied under oath and were caught at it.

You know - I didn't start off feeling self-righteous there, or angry or anything. But by the end I realized that I really am pretty mad at all the lying that has gone on - and not just Bonds.

I wonder if anyone ever pressed some of the agents and some of the folks in the commisioner's office about steroids. I wonder what would happen if all the people who knew what was going on could have it proven.

And somewhere out there are kids who think that it's what they're gonna have to do, because everyone else is, and even Bonds did it.

Okay. That's enough. I'm not mad. Not really.

Bay Area Fan makes a very good point.

"perjury prosecution is an off-shoot from some other investigation into conduct which, ultimately, the government concluded that it couldn't prove.

It is a sad day for Baseball. The question of fairness remains...

If an employer, employs an illegal immigrant. For Example Tyson Meat Packing.
They are never prosecuted.

If Mark McGuire, and every single player in baseball, (hitters and pitchers) were indicted, and the same questions we asked of every single owner and front office employee in Baseball, "Do you know anyone who used these substances." then it would not be selective enforcement and prosecution.

The Owners are more guilty and their pockets are lined with cash, as they go "tsk-tsk" at their country clubs.

Holy crap. I never though I would agree 100% with SirAlden. Guess there is a first time for everything.

So, essentially, Bonds is guilty of the same offense as Scooter Libby. G. W. Bush has ties with Baseball, maybe Bonds can get a Presidential pardon.

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EST. 2005

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