Part of CSNPhilly.com


« State of the Phillies: Myers’ job remains divisive issue | Main | Phillies claim lefty Youman off waivers from Pirates »

Tuesday, November 27, 2007

Comments

AWH: Let me get this straight. A player can fail to perform up to expectations (what he was paid to do) and yet not be overpaid? Can you please explain this in a way that doesn't turn logic on its head? Thanks.

clout, I already have made the distinction. It's not my fault you don't get it.

Now, take a deep breath and take your pill.

"Like many sequels, the original was better." Classic line JW.

I'll take Fukudome over Rowand and put him in RF, then LF after Pat leaves. Let's soend some more green.

It's too bad the Phillies don't have the prospects or desire to go after Santana or Cabrera, both of who would be huge upgrades to this team.

I just posted this and didn't realize we started another blog

Lets talk about Burrell - the first half of the season he was so bad (strikingout 3 or 4 times a game) and even got benched. Yes he had a good second half but does that mean he was worth the money? He probably not hitting in the first half and rowand took over his 5th batting position showed he wasn't doing what he should of been doing and probably cost us lots of first half games. If he had the average of both halfs then I would say he deserved the money. But I am sure some of ya will say the final average is what counts.

Phils made a HUGE move today....they re-acquired Tom McCarthy from the Mets for their radio broadcasts....does this mean Franzke's out?

from the language of the press release, it looks like they aren't firing anyone, merely adding Tom McCarthy

perhaps that move will come later, though.

AWH: I'm sorry, but maybe I'm dense. (Many would agree!) Let's use a non-baseball example. AWH pays me $200 to move 100 boxes for him in one day. I only move 50. I did not meet expectations. Have I been overpaid? If not, why not?

fljerry: You are raising a similar point to mine. I honestly don't know the answer. Is consistency better than hot and cold streaks? Sometimes a guy in a hot streak will carry a whole team. Is that less valuable than someone who is steady and consistent?

McCarthy said that he will do play-by-play during the middle three innings on television. He's still unclear on exactly how he'll be used for the other 6 innings.

Lots of cooks in the Phillies broadcast kitchen, as I posted above just now. It would appear LA's tryout as middle-inning play-by-play man is over.

I'd love for LA to come back to TV. Sarge's uninteresting voice just bores me.

What do you think it would take to get Prior from the Cubs? Could we get him for prospects or players other than the untouchables like Carrasco, Outman, etc

stjoehawk: Very interesting. Last season's broadcast was so dysfunctional, McCarthy will be a welcome addition. Thank God they didn't bring back Scott Graham.

"It would appear LA's tryout as middle-inning play-by-play man is over."

While that may be true, I don't think that's related to the McCarthy hiring, since he'll be on television and they've already shown that they don't have a problem with using a 3 man booth.

On the positive side, I'm sure that this is at least somewhat due to the survey they sent out a few weeks back & the great feedback they got on Wheels doing play-by-play on TV.

Nobody is going to take the Place of Whitey (Ashburn). Between him and Kalas there were no better announcers and it was a pleasure to listen to them. Whatever happened between the differences between Wheeler and Kalas? I myself never like Wheels.

Heard about McCarthy and was hoping he could take the P by P duties from Wheels and his forced-sounding and my-face-is-too-close-to-the-mic home run calls. Never been a Chris Wheeler fan.

clout: Franzke and LA can nail the dramatic moments, which occur 15 percent of the time. It's the rest of the time that bothers me about that team. For some reason, I have a tough time identifying with their style of casual banter, almost to the point where I feel alienated as a listener. There’s something a little dark and disingenuous about it. The very best broadcasters, like Harry and Whitey, use those moments to bring you closer.

clout: Using your example, say you were an average box mover who was paid $200 to move 100 and only managed 50, but an equally average box mover gets paid $300 to move 50, and he commands that rate because he's the only other mover and once got paid for 100 but managed to do 150 on a particular job. You both moved the same number of boxes but you were paid less. Overpaid when looking at deliverables and performance? Perhaps. Overpaid compared to the rest of the market? No. Not to knock your box moving skills or work ethic. My head hurts now.

Yes, AWH, it's impossible to say for certain whether Linebrink or Romero are overpaid at the moment, but I do think it's probable that the White Sox expect more out of Linebrink, for example, than they'll give them. Free markets aren't always rational; for instance, Radiohead just offered its fans the choice to buy their album for free or pay various amounts, and I think the average fan paid a little over ten dollars. Wouldn't any economist say these fans overpaid? Similarly, we probably could have given Romero just 10 million and still retained him, but we chose to kick in more.

Great news about Tm McCarthy.

Jason: Andersen can only nail the big moments when he's color guy.

Clearly the fan survey had something to do with this move — whether McCarthy was brought in before or after it. It's great to see they somewhat listened to us here. Hopefully LA and Wheels are your main color guys, and Sarge goes to radio to hone his talents ... whatever they are.

Of course, if they really listened to me, Scott Graham would be back on board.

Tray, you're abso****inglutely right: Free markets are not always rational. But salaries are set at a fair level based on market conditions at that time. Conditions and what is judged to be fair can change.

"AWH: I'm sorry, but maybe I'm dense."

clout........MAYBE?

Malcolm, I agree on Scott Graham. Disagree on Sarge; he is much less a 'homer' than any of the other guys, and will call a mistake by what it is and not try to whitewash it.

Bottom line: Every one of the broadcast team has flaws. It just depends what style you like.

I read into the same thing you did, Jason, in the LA Times today about Ned Colletti. I'm curious on where they are going with the youth movement, though. The Las Vegas 51s have been below .500 for four years, but the Jacksonville Suns have had recent success. But you can't blame Colletti. He asked for Miguel Cabrera's price, and the Marlins said "Four players."

My wife is a Gamma Phi. Their rep is their excellent taste in men. How did they go so wrong with Pat the Bat?

Pat the Bat clearly didn't perform up to expectations. We signed him based on the expectation he'd repeat 2002 or improve. He then stunk in 03, was barely average in 04, performed to expecations in 05, and has been above average albeit maddeningly streaky the last two years, but certainly not what we expected when we signed him 5 years ago.
All that said, I'd have to say in this market he's worth 14mil on a one year contract.
On a more interesting topic that hasn't been beaten to death... where do people think Burrell should bat next year? I think he should be in the 3-hole. One, it gives us a L-R-L split that is tougher to match up against late in games. And two, his walks are WAY more valuable with Howard hitting behind him as opposed to Dobbs/Helms, where they're a waste.

Fukudome at 3/30 or Kuroda at 4/40? I don't know. Japanese hitters tend to come over better than their pitching counterparts, at least with regards to rotation pitchers. Fukudome could also cover a potential CF injury and play LF when Pat leaves. The pitching is a bigger concern right now, though...

Not sure why there isnt more support for Riske. Hasn't had an ERA below 4 since 2002, despite pitching in the AL. Keeps both sides to an OPS of .700, although his FIP suggests he's been a bit lucky. Still, at a Romero-money deal, he'd be money well spent - or at least better spent then a Lohse or Silva.

Why do the radio/TV guys switch off during a game? Do they get tired?

I'm not a native, so I don't have the same love of Harry as most.
He's got history, so keep him. The rest of the guys are average. I have the MLB package and it's amazing how bad/forgettable/interchangeable most of the broadcaster are.
Give me someone with loads of baseball knowledge, a little personality and a voice that doesn't grate.

I think I'd rather the roll the dice on mystery Japanese player Fukudome then mystery pitcher Kuroda.

"Of course, if they really listened to me, Scott Graham would be back on board."

Agreed.

Sarge needs to go to the radio. His state-the-obvious style works much better when you're not seeing the obvious on the screen. And agree with someone above about his refreshing honestly. But not so much that I don't mind limiting his honesty to the non-visual medium.

Also on Wednesday, the Phils 3rd uniform for 2008 will be unveiled.

Look for a cream colored "throwback" type home uniform to be incorporated next season (with no pinstripes). And, I think the interleague caps are going away.

AWH: OK, I'm dense. But you still didn't answer my question. Which makes me think you can't.

Too many broadcasters - 6, not including Jim Jackson. Its just too much. I am glad that LA will be doing strictly color now. And I also wish if they bring anyone back, it was Scott Graham (just like the others posted).

How can someone go from Phillies to Mets to Phillies??. McCarthy's calls for 2008 are already tainted in my eyes based on that....and I liked him here when he did middle innings on the radio in 05 as well as the postgame.

The Phillies seem to really enjoy making the broadcasting aspect very confusing, when it really isnt that difficult.

clout, once again, read the posts, ALL of them, carefully, again.

Besides, your whole argument is based on a comment

"By definition if a player fails to perform up to expectations (i.e. what he was paid to do) he is overpaid."

that is, at best, spurious and disingenuous.

If you cannot admit to having the ability to think of a situation where a player "fails to perform to expectations" and is not "overpaid" then you are either arguing for the sake of it, or are, in fact, dense.

Let me take a crack at it: Clout, the problem with your analogy is that the box-moving contract called for a specific number of boxes to be moved, and you didn't do it. Baseball contracts aren't based on quality of performance; rather, they're based on showing up. The quality of work might be inferred from past performance, but as the small print always states, that's no guarantee of future results. So the contracts are, much like recording contracts, based on what management THINKS future performance might be. All bidders have the same data -- past performance -- at their disposal. The market value will be set by the various general managers weighing what they have to spend vs. what they need and allocating resources accordingly.

So let's look at this offseason. Everyone needs starting pitching, but there's very little of it. There's not much great relief pitching, either, but there's a much broader supply of mediocre relievers than starters, so it should be small surprise that, as last off-season, the market price for mediocre relief pitching has soared. Are Romero et al being overpaid? By last year's standards, yes -- but their new contracts have set a new market price.

Perhaps if you spent more spare time investing in the commodities markets you'd pick this up faster. If you buy an oil futures contract at $110/barrel and the market doesn't rise that much, sticking you with a loss, you could say the oil market "underperformed" or that you "overpaid" for your oil -- but, since it's just a commodity, you wouldn't have the oil to blame for your lousy decision. With a baseball player, you can always blame the player instead of the GM by saying the player "underperformed" -- or, if you prefer, was "overpaid."

Tray:

As for the whole is the free market rational or not rational tangent with Radiohead -- most fans paid zero dollars according to USA Today. So it might be a little more rational than you are letting on. And that might not even be counting the people that just managed to get the songs via copying/pirating.

http://www.usatoday.com/life/music/news/2007-11-06-radiohead_N.htm

Alby, excellent work!

A very elegant way of discerning, digesting, and restating my point; though, I still maintain, as I said in my original post, that it is not a matter of semantics.

It is possible for a player to "underperform" and not be "overpaid".

They are not, as clout illogically maintains, the same thing.

Keeler, you think it's confusing now just to consider the latest broadcasting alignment - just imagine if McCarthy and Franzke ever shared the booth. I defy anyone to tell their voices apart!

RSB - agreed, they do sound similar. Despite my bashing of McCarthy going back and forth between the Mets and Phils, I strongly prefer him to Franzke and his style of "acting like you are high and telling the most inside jokes possible with LA for approx. 85% of the game" style of broadcasting. I think it is just an act, but I dont know for sure.

Franzke/LA personal banter: I like it. It reminds me of Bob Euker and his broadcast partners back and forth banter. Euker is always making up some ridiculous story and employs self deprecation in comically brilliant ways. While Larry Anderson is no Bob Euker, Franzke's proding at Anderson's seeming deficiencies in concentration, and the causal references to Andersons past are great for me. Anderson went through some wars (and apparently some pretty good times) in his day, and he has that gruff, crusty, old veteran sound to him. He sounds like he could sub in for the manager of the team in "Major League" at any given moment. They seem to have a good rappor, and it seems genuine to me, like they might get a cold beverage after the broadcast.

I agree that Franzke could probably tone down the smart-alecky approach, but I think a lot of that has to do with Andersen. I think I still prefer him to McCarthy, but maybe I'll come to believe differently after hearing him much more often. Has McCarthy ever even done TV before?

One think I'd actually like to hear more of, though it'll never happen, is Kalas on the radio. Anyone who says Kalas is past his prime is not listening to those fourth innings on WPHT. Only here will you hear him truly in his element, and he still calls the game like an absolute master.

Jason W: I meant to ask, how is the new Foo Fighters album? I have been catching up on the first three in anticipation of listening to the new one. If it is half as good as "The Colour and the Shape" I will be extremely exited.

J: Any idea why the Phillies weren't interested in Yasuhiko Yabuta, the reliever KC just signed out of Japan? He's signed for 2 years for just $5M to $6M with a club option for one more. Seems like good value considering what Linebrink got.

I like Tom McCarthy. He's very solid. I always looked forward to his around the league wrap-ups. I'm not sure how much time he got to prepare, but it was always very solid.

Franzke has grown on his me. His voice, still seems to be a comglomeration of a few different radio voices, none of whom I can figure out, and none of which seem like his REAL voice. But there was one time last season, during a Mets game, I was listening to 1210 and I SWORE I was listening to McCarthy doing the Phils broadcast. I called up my buddy who is sorta in the know, to see if McCarthy had returned. He said he hadn't heard. I switched to the FAN, waited a few minutes and McCarthy was there. At some point during the season, Franzke became McCarthy.

The Sarge also grew on me. Radio is probably a better venue for him. He is extremely knowledgeable (especially about hitting) and even though some people think he repeats himself or states the obvious, all I hear is, is a guy who is probably a very good hitting instructor (where being repetitive and obvious actually works.)

LA as play by play was a disaster. Even he knew he was overmatched.

I don't mind having 6 guys... I think it will work itself out.

Still for my money... Harry's 4th inning on the radio is the best in the business. There's just something about baseball on the radio. And sometimes a solitary guy can do the best job. Oddly enough, Ashburn's solo play by plays were even BETTER than Kalas!

-- Finally, I don't get anyone who thinks Scott Graham is a competent baseball announcer. Honestly, I've never minded him during a CN8 basketball game or NFL Films narration or even NFL radio games. But his baseball is terrible. TERRIBLE. There's a conversational tone to a baseball game that he never quite GOT. It's the only sport where it sounds better when it sounds like 2 friends are watching a game. See Kalas-Ashburn. For what it's worth, even if Franzke seemed to bust LA's chops way to often for "mistakes" on air, they sound like they are having a good time with each other. And that's fine by me. But Graham's voice always seemed to get in the way. I'm fine with never hearing him again.

The best part of bringing in McCarthy is that LA won't be doing play-by-play. It was embarassing bad last year. Consistently made gaffes including the number of outs in an inning (which shouldn't happen). I do like LA as a color guy though.

Still, there are way too many cooks in the kitchen. This giving an inning here or an inning there to guys is ridiculous. Almost wonder if they are trying to sort out the post-Kalas world by bringing in a bunch of guys to see what sticks.

McCarthy isn't bad although he is pretty vanilla. Same with Franzke (who did not grow on me last year). Basically is your "Store Brand" broadcaster - competent but generic and easily replaceable. As forced as the banter seemed between LA and Franzke last year times, I would still prefer it to McCarthy and Franzke. Two vanilla guys in the radio booth does not make for an enjoyable radio broadcast.

You have to wonder where this leaves Sarge though. Never understood why they brought in him last year to begin with but at least he was candid at times. Never get that from Wheeler (who really does know baseball and if he toned down the shtick would be a decent broadcaster).

I don't see how the Phils' broadcasts are going to have any kind of natural cadence next year. I love when Harry does the 4th on the radio (just to get a chance to hear his voice) but have switching guys switch roles/media just doesn't make for a smooth broadcast.

Is it possible the Phils will actually try 3 guys on the radio next year at same time? I hope not.

Still none of the current broadcasters are as bad as Andy Musser (who is the worst broadcaster the Phils' have had since I was old enough to listen). Used to always give me a laugh when my old man would hit the can when Musser can on. Like a built in break.

"AWH pays me $200 to move 100 boxes for him in one day. I only move 50. I did not meet expectations. Have I been overpaid?"

"Let's check." "$200 for 50 Boxes, or $4 per box."

"AWH still has 50 boxes to move, and calls 4 Free Agent Box movers. They all say sure!"

"How much will is cost?"

" $8 dollars a box or $400. "
" $6 dollars a box or $300. "
" $5 dollars a box or $250. "
" $7 dollars a box or $350. "

"Wow. I should have moved all the boxes I said I could, but looks like the market has matured and the cost for Free Agent box moves is alot higher."

"Ergo, I was NOT OVERPAID for moving the first 50 boxes. "

Correction: McCarthy will be doing three innings of TELEVISION play-by-play. Not radio. Zolecki reports that he signed a five-year deal. Certainly sounds like they're settling on a Kalas successor.

MARKETING ALERT:

Zolecki blogged yesterday that Gillick "remains optimistic" that the Phillies can improve their pitchng before spring training. [that's the marketing]

He also noted that Gillick "thinks next week's winter meetings in Nashville will be slow for the Phillies. But he doesn't see a lot of trades happening in baseball in general." [deliberately lowering expectations]

Am I the only one who sees the contradiction in this?

They either improve the pitching through trades (probably not happening, according to PG) or sign FA pitchers, which they seem very reluctant to do. Unless, of course, they are waiting pitchers out hoping prices will come down, which could mean the truly best FA relievers out there (improvements) will be gone by the time they do anything.

If Gillick's expectations are low, then how can he be "optimistic"?

I wonder if Zolecki thought it through enough to ask that follow-up question.

If Randy Wolf is signed and he can make 25 starts next season, Gillick has improved the pitching. This coupled with retaining Romero and acquisition of Lidge. I'm not saying the staff is awesome, but it will be improved.

'Ray Bucknell!

At this point I'm not sure what makes it likely that Wolf stays healthy enough to make 25 starts. I don't mind signing him, I just hope its at a low base salary with plenty of incentives so we dont get burned if he spends half the year on the DL.

At this point I'm actually more worried about getting an extra bat in the lineup because there looks to be more possible help in the minors for the pitching staff than there does for position players.

On a side note, I love this site, are there any more good ones like it (I'll continue to come here first, but sometimes I get bored when the posts are slow) I've checked out a couple others so far, and I can't believe the garbage on them....how can Phillies sites have long winded discussions about how Rollins shouldnt have been any better than 5th in the MVP voting?

First let me say that Harry is Phillies baseball for me. The day he decides to retire will be very sad. Yes, he does make a few mistakes now and then, but I would rather have Harry with a few bloopers than any other broadcaster. And just to echo what others are saying about how brilliant Harry is on the radio, think back to the late '70's and '80's when most of the games were only on the radio and not TV and you would listen to the drama of every play described by Harry and Whitey; there is no broadcast combination today that can match them.

I liked McCarthy in his first run on the Phillies broadcast, so he will be a welcome addition. Hopefully this means that we will hear less of Wheels. His play by play seems forced. And I especially don't like him doing color with Harry, knowing that they don't have a good relationship. I think a good lineup would be Harry and LA for 1-2-3, McCarthy, Wheels, and Sarge for 4-5-6, and back to Harry and LA for 7-8-9.

By the way, I think the post-game work on Comcast by Mitch Williams was really good. I also think that John Marzano is excellent; too bad we saw less of him last year because he spent more time with MLB.com.

I think you can look at Burrell's performance two ways. Is he overpaid based on the expectations management had for his career? Absolutely. Is he overpaid compared to other players? No, because other teams gave out bad contracts, i.e. Gary Matthews Jr., his contract is not as bad as it was. The only reason he is no longer overpaid is that salaries have caught up to his.

I wonder what will happen to all these prospects and young guns traded to weak, small market teams. Will they make Florida and Minnesota dramatically better, or will these two teams be like a farm system for the money gorged huge market teams?

I don't mind Fukodome at $11MM per. Against serious LHPs use Werth for the first two ABs, then use the Fukodome-Victorino-Werth defensive substitution.

OTOH, Jenkins would do equally well.

I can't comment on the broadcast team as I've been away from the local broadcasts for a long time. When I first started listening, it was Byrum Saam. He was a poor man's Mel Allen. I believe when Whitey Ashburn first started, he was teamed with Bill(?) Campbell, who I enjoyed, but Campbell got canned and they brought in Harry Kalas from Houston. Over time, I've come to enjoy Harry Kalas, but not at first. I instantly recognize his voice selling soup or broadcasting football games on Westwood One. I never was an Andy Musser fan and Wheeler used to be a fill in voice, definitely not a radio voice.

In re: the barren wasteland of the NY Yankees Farm system - it is amazing how a few really good drafts can change a team's ability to contend. Getting Kennedy and Chamberlain in the same draft we got Drabek and Cardenas is an interesting example. I don't know if, in the very long run (say 5 - 10 years) their draft will be seen as monumentally better than ours, but in the short term, they acquired two almost-ready-for-primetime arms, while we got a prospect without a position and a potential #1 pitcher on the DL.

(Who was it a couple threads ago bemoaning our scouting?)

(But we've got Lamar now! I'm sure that'll improve our...never mind.)

From MLBTRadeRumors.com ...

"No Rowand For White Sox?
Joe Cowley of the Chicago Sun-Times says Aaron Rowand has already priced himself out of the White Sox's range. Apparently the Sox talked to Rowand before they made an offer to Torii Hunter, and found the number of years Rowand requested to be out of the question. Randy Miller said back in mid-October that Rowand was looking for a six-year, $84MM deal. Cowley sees the Rangers and Dodgers as the main suitors for Rowand."

I still hoping that after Rowand tests the market he finds that returning to the Phils is his best option.

I followed the link to the Cowley article posted by UD Hens and found this idea at the bottom of Cowley's piece:
"The Sox were in talks with Houston last winter about Taveras, whom the Astros eventually traded to Colorado. Williams could try to use third baseman Joe Crede to get a deal done with the Rockies at the winter meetings next week."

Someone may have to explain to me why Colorado would be interested in a 3B when they have Atkins currently, and Stewart knocking on the door (and with Helton, presumably, still kicking at the other corner IF position). Is Cowley reliable here, or just dreaming?

Colorado would not trade for Crede unless they have a corresponding move to get rid of Atkins. Stewart however has been playing some second base and they are bouncing around the idea of playing him there next season.

McCarthy is a great play-by-play guy. I'm thrilled to have him back. He also did a great job on pre and post game shows. Solid, professional, great voice. I'm hoping the Phils do something to fix the radio team. The Franzke-LA team is annoying. They sound like a couple of frat brothers with childish humor. Franke seems to try to hard to be one of the guys by trading barbs with LA. Put LA with Harry and dump Franke. I'd much rather hear Scott Graham.

AWH: "It is possible for a player to "underperform" and not be "overpaid."

That's an illogical statement that you cannot support unless you change the definition of "overpaid." Unlike your explanation, Alby's was correct and logical.

mike cunningham: I with you. I've heard hundreds of sports announcers over the years and some are pretty awful (Brent Mussberger). But few are as annoying as Scott Graham. The childish cheering, the lack of real baseball insight, the cloying sweet-goody-goody talk, the too-loud voice. I can see where he might appeal to a 13-year-old boy or someone with that mentality, but how he could appeal to a grown-up is baffling.

McCarthy is a pro and I was sorry when he left. The main problem last year, as has been pointed out, is that had color men (Wheels and LA) working as play by play guys. They stink at PBP. Whoever's idea that was should be fired.

"I can see where he might appeal to a 13-year-old boy or someone with that mentality, but how he could appeal to a grown-up is baffling."

Wow... I've never had my mentality compared to that of a 13-year-old boy, but since I'm a fan of Scott Graham, I guess it just happened.

Typically, the comparison tops out at around 8 years old.

"I can see where he might appeal to a 13-year-old boy or someone with that mentality, but how he could appeal to a grown-up is baffling."

Hey, clout, some of my best memories were as a 13 year old boy! Although, the Phils didn't do so well that particular year, but they did manage a winning record, which wasn't always the case in my youth.

UD Hens, there's mention of Rowand in Baseball Notes on Philly.com:

"Free-agent centerfielder Aaron Rowand told the Chicago Tribune yesterday that he was in no hurry to sign a new contract.
"I'm actually enjoying it," Rowand said by phone from his home near Las Vegas. "We'll know when the time is right. Whatever happens, happens.

"Right now I'm just enjoying my off-season workouts and my time with my family. I let my agent [Craig Landis] handle that other stuff."

Rowand, who enjoyed a career year for the Phillies in 2007, said he was not consumed by his destination.

"Craig informs me on a few things," Rowand said. "He lets me know what's going on, but there is no timetable."

Rowand, 30, set career bests with 27 home runs and 89 RBIs to go with a .309 batting average last season. He also won a Gold Glove.

The Chicago White Sox, his former team, are interested in Rowand, who grew up in Glendora, Calif. He also may be pursued by the Los Angeles Dodgers."

ill- where did the 'ray Bucknell comment come from earlier? Did you know I went there?

For a little off-season levity, I found this quote on Baseball Almanac:

"Garland them with timeless lilies!
Although they are a bunch of dillies,
Who give honest men the willies.
We still love them for their sillies.
Hail, The Phillies."
- James Michener

Did any one notice Billy the Rat open his mouth again about the starting pitching of the Mets? Any thoughts on that, besides the obvious?

But, Alby, has Linebrink's contract set a new market price? Do you think other teams are going to start giving 20 million over four years to relief pitchers who are obviously on the decline? I think it's just an anomaly. It's like if I buy a used luxury car that's in bad shape and, instead of looking at the Kelly Blue Book, just offer some exorbitantly high figure because I can afford to and because I'm unaware of the fact that in two years the car won't work at all. And then I take it out every day and drive it at high speeds when the previous owner was much gentler (that's meant to be analogous to taking a relief pitcher from Petco and putting him in US Cellular). Yeah, it happened in a free market, but that's not the value that the free market as a whole would give that car. I just overpiad.

GM-Carson - Didn't know you went there. I graduated in 2005 and had forgotten about Junge in the system. I remember a couple articles in the school paper while I was there. He only had the one start if I remember correctly. You don't really see many products coming out of Lewisburg so it is good to see an update.

No chance in hell the Phillies win 100 games next year.

The underpaid chat is overdone.
Let it go.

I think i saw on ESPN.com where the Mets might also be in the Santana running. Yikes.

The only info I've seen about the Met's being in the Santana running would include them shipping Reyes plus prospects out there. I'd say the Yankees are the easy frontrunner for him right now, with the Red Sox a little behind.

Billy Wagner and I apparently feel the same way about the Mets current roster, so I can't really fault him for that. I'd be pretty pissed if I was a Mets fan, but as a Phillies fan I'm just mildly amused.

phila fan in dc - Interesting comments from Rowand. So lets read between the lines. 1. Rowand is feeling no pressure to get something done quickly, 2. he is letting the market set his price and he is letting his agent do all the legwork, 3. however when the time comes to sign, Rowand will certainly have the final say. I also read somewhere that Rowand and the Phillies continue to discuss a contract and that the number of years (4 versus 5) was the issue, not money.

The Mets are always a popular name to mention when discussing potential landing spots for top starting pitchers who might be traded. But when you actually start looking at the top prospects in their organization, you come away with the distinct impression that there is no way in the world they could ever land a top starter. The top prospects in their farm system are no better than the top prospects in our farm system. They're probably worse.

Time for me to look for some synonyms. I think I just set a Beerleaguer record for most uses of the word "Top" in one post.

When Minnesota won their last World Series, they were held up as a model that small market, low payroll teams can compete with moneybags teams like the Yankees (and now Red Sox). It looks like they sold their soul to the Devil in holding Santana trade talks with the Devil's Minion, the Yankees! Shame on the Minnesota Twins!

Lake Fred - Actually, it seems like they're still operating just like a small market, low payroll team. Build from within & trade established players before their big payday to restock the minor leagues.

St. Joe, you're right, but the Twins don't help the cause by dealing with the Devil about a superstar player like Santana.

BAP, I can't top your post. Being a Phillies fan, the word top is a rarely used word in my lexicon....now, if I was a Yankees fan...but, I'm not!

Question: Would you trade Hamels and prospects for Santana? How confident are you that Hamels will not spend significant time on the DL in the next 5 years?

Kingman:
On the other hand, how confident are you that Santana will continue to perform at the torrid pace of his first four years. Few pitchers have matched his ERA+ for that long.

It's something of a myth that low payroll teams can compete with the big spenders. They might be able to compete in any given year -- and, if they're really well-run like the A's, maybe they can stretch that window of opportunity out to 2 or 3 years. But a low payroll team will never be able to build the kind of permanent playoff contender that teams like the Yankees & RedSox & Angels have built. And if a low payroll team has a bad year or two in drafting -- which is 100% inevitable, no matter how shrewd the scouting dept. -- it will be a good 4 or 5 years before they can ever be competititve again. I suspect that's what we're seeing with the A's right now.

LF - the catch is the salary thing. No team is gonna send their best stuff to Minnesota for just one year of Santana. They want to be able to sign him to an extension. Only a few teams are willing to sign that extension. And if Minnesota was not shopping him this year, those teams would just wait, like sharks, until next year rolled around. Minnesota might feel like you about shopping him to the Yanks, but they do not have much choice if they want value for what they have.

Lake: Notice that the only way I was able to use the word "top" that many times was by writing a post about a team other than the Phillies.

Andy, I'm not saying I would make the trade. I just am concerned about the long term health of Hamels. Do the Phillies have the willingness to pay Santana what he wauld want? Probably not.

Kingman:

Theres no way I'd consider trading Hamels and prospects for Santana. Think about the salary difference if nothing else. Hamels will be making about $500,000 next year while Santana will be in the $13.5 million range (don't quote me on that). But the extension he will want will be in the $20 million per year range, and that would be 1/5 of our pathetic payroll going to one player who essentially only plays every 1/5 of the season.

And Hamels is my favorite player, so he's therefore untradable.

clout, for the last time...and then I'm moving on.

You obviously didn't read ALL of my posts on the subject in their ENTIRETY, or you would not have typed this statement,

"That's an illogical statement that you cannot support unless you change the definition of "overpaid." ",

because in the context of how I defined overpaid (an impossibility) in my posts, it's a perfectly logical statement.

It's either that you didn't bother to read, or you're intellectually incapable of understanding what I wrote.

Stop nitpicking, grow up, and move on.

In re: Santana. Baseball Analysts has an interesting article on what to expect from him in the coming years (actually - more like, what not to expect). I think they believe he will be over-valued in the upcoming trade.

http://baseballanalysts.com/archives/2007/11/know_your_reall.php

From Phillies.com

"Rowand is believed to be seeking a pact in the five-year, $70 million range. Is that out of the Phillies' range? "I wouldn't say it pushes him out of our range," Gillick said, "but it pushes the market up." ... "

I'm impressed with that answer out of Gillick, unless he's just lying to appease us. I'd also love to know what we offered Kuroda, cause the D-backs only offered $27 million over 3 years and I know we can beat that, but the real issue is Seattle.

UD Hens, I think you're right and I believe Aaron is playing this well. The right move for him is to wait and see what happens- for example, the Dodgers could be more active if they end up trading Kemp they have more incentive find a CF and shift Pierre to RF, and you'd expect their offer to Rowand to increase. I can understand why he'd want five years (he's thirty and wants security), and I can also understand a team's hesitancy to do this (he's thirty).

Mr. Weitzel, a few days ago you mentioned that you hadn't heard Lohse's name lately- Crasnick includes a write up on him today:

"Kyle Lohse ranks somewhere between Brett Tomko and Meche on the tease-o-meter. Scouts and talent evaluators rave about his stuff, but the end result is a 29-year-old guy with a 63-74 record, a 4.82 career ERA and a penchant for making one bad pitch and allowing minor jams to escalate into big messes. "The guy has a hard time with crooked numbers on the scoreboard," said a National League scout.

Agent Scott Boras is pushing Lohse as a more durable version of Meche -- a guy who might suddenly break through in the right environment. Boras has made it known that he's seeking a four- or five-year deal for Lohse, and he's willing to wait until teams get desperate.

The Phillies liked Lohse enough that they might be interested in bringing him back on an Adam Eaton-type deal (three years and $25 million or so). In this market, that's almost certainly not going to cut it."

As for baseball and overpaying, it seems to me that the Phillies are a prime example of a team that is currently constructed with the best values in MLB. Even on our most cynical days I think that we’d agree that Utley and Rollins are among the top 5 at their positions, and their contracts are great for us: Chase in at 7 yr/$85Mil and Jimmy in at 5yr/$40 mil. Sure, we maybe overpaying for Burrell and Eaton, but those contracts will be coming off the books in the short term.

Rickyj21, Kuroda was also mentioned in Crasnick's piece today. I had seen the possibility that his agents are looking for a deal of 4 yr/$45mil, I'll see if I can't find that again.

"The pitcher attracting the most attention on the free-agent market is a mystery to American baseball fans. But Hiroki Kuroda is sure getting lots of love from Major League Baseball front offices.

Kuroda, 32, went 103-89 with a 3.69 ERA in 11 seasons while pitching in a bandbox for the Hiroshima Carp. He throws a fastball at 92-94 mph, a plus slider and a changeup that acts like a forkball. He's had some elbow issues in the past, and that could be a concern. But lots of baseball people rank him just a tick behind Daisuke Matsuzaka.

"He's a legit middle- to back-of-the-rotation starter," said a National League executive. "Of all the free agents, I think he's the best one out there."

Kuroda's list of suitors includes Seattle, Kansas City, Arizona, the Cubs, the Mets and definitely the Dodgers, who would love to plug him into their rotation with Brad Penny, Derek Lowe and Chad Billingsley. If Jason Schmidt can return to form and round out the top five in 2008, so much the better.

Seattle appears to be the front-runner after general manager Bill Bavasi and manager John McLaren traveled to Japan to meet personally with Kuroda. The initial feeling was that Kuroda could expect a three-year deal worth between $33 and $36 million. But the competition for his services could easily push his deal to four years."

Basically I have been disappointed but what the Phils have done this offseason so far (or really haven't done) but I am willing to wait until the Dec. winter meetings to see what happens.

If Gillick comes back from the winter meetings and the Phils haven't upgraded this team in a substantial way by Christmas, then that disappoint will turn to disgust since it will be clear the Phils' management is content to milk this team for as much profit as profitable (including the stupid alternative jerseys).

The comments to this entry are closed.

EST. 2005

Top Stories

HardballTalk

Rotoworld News

Follow on Twitter

Follow on Facebook

Contact Weitzel

CSG