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Friday, October 05, 2007


I think that the general consensus when the postseason rosters were announced, was that Mesa should only EVER be used in mop-up duty on either side of a blowout. Essentially, just by inserting Mesa into a game, Manuel is saying "this one is over, thanks for coming out."

That SHOULD be the mentality and it sounds like it is for about 98% of the posters on this site, who are, by all regards, relatively sharp in the way of baseball minds.

Blame. It only ever needs to materialize when a team falls on the short side of victory. As noted in the previous thread, Hurdle has made some curious decisions, as well, however he doesn't need to worry about "blame" since he's taking a 2-0 lead home with him and his offensively talented team, to their hitter friendly park. Its been said probably 5,283 times on this site, but Gillick is just as much to blame as Manuel, for giving him this value village (a kind term for 'crappy') bullpen. All in all, though, Manuel and his many, many decades of experience should have known better than to use Lohse in a spot that he's not accustomed to and certainly should know that in a close game that must be won, you can't stray from the Romero/Gordon/Myers triumvirate.

J. W.: No need to be so self-critical (read: negadelphian). That's the great thing about this format: a blogpost is not a pronouncement, it's the start of a discussion.
In Confessional Booth news? I'm in utter dread of Game 3, and actually not sure if I can watch it.

While we're in confessional booth, I picked "The Team to Beat in 4 - book it." Apparently, I'm not among the keen baseball minds. My name might as well be Skip Bayless.

Our bullpen sucks aside from Romero and Myers...Gordon is mediocre. So taking the starting pitcher (Kendrick) out of the game in the top of the 4th inning while he's only given up 2 runs is retarded. This forces us to use garbage pitchers from our relief group early in the game. I understand Kendrick wasn't pitching lights-out and worked into a tough situation with the bases loaded...but there was 2 outs and Kendrick had only thrown 66 pitches. Kendrick has shown the ability time and time again to work his way out of jams like this, so it made no sense to take a control pitcher like Kendrick out of the game and throw Lohse into a high pressure situation. Manuel may be a great motivator, but the man is retarded!

*Mesa shouldn't be on the team, and especially not the playoff roster.

There's absolutely no reason to ever use Mesa in a playoff game. I'm shocked and more than a little embarrassed he's even on the roster. All year long, I've been a Manuel booster, and I want him back next season... but that was unforgivable.

The Kendrick/Lohse decision was arguable, though I hated the move at the time. My biggest problem with it was putting Lohse in an unfamiliar situation. The leverage at that point in the game is such that you have to use Romero or Gordon there to get out of the 4th, THEN let Lohse try to pitch three innings to get you to the other two of the Trusted Three relievers.

I think many of us were worried about Cholly in the playoffs, that his usual tactical blunders would be exposed and hightened by the pressures of the playoffs.

I missed the discussion yesterday but there should be no question that Manuel is close to incompetence when it comes to tactics.

In two games, he has:
-Used 4 players in one spot in the batting order in the 7th inning. And the player they got to, Bourn, ended up erased. Even if you fault Bourn for not going, the move was poor anyway, with Ruiz and a PH coming up.
-In a short bullpen, he almost had to burn Gordon for 1/3 inning. It ended up that he stayed in the game, but you don't waste on of your best pitchers to get out Kaz Matsui, especially by turning him around to his better side.

-In the most important AB of the season, he took out a superior pitcher who had not only given up a cheap hit, but had demonstrated his ability to get out of jams. Even is Loshe retires Matsui, you start burning through you bullpen meaning you probably see Mes anyway.

-Using Jose Mesa. I hope those posters who chided some of us for actually discussing the relative worth of the 25th man realize that every player counts.

-Picking Mesa wasn't a "moot" point, nor was he just one of several equally bad choices; he was by far the worst - anyone could tell that - and the Phillies paid.

Don't forget to include me in on the blame as well. I decided yesterday to make a meaningless and redundant post on the pregame thread....why? This forum was fine without me all season....and I start posting when we're down 0-1 in the NLDS? Insane. Not to mention that I called a college friend this week to see if we could each sneak away from the wives and kids to attend home game #1 of the NLCS. I can't mess with my routine like that and not expect a backlash from The Fates. My sincerest apologies to you all.

As for the game....I don't know as much as most of you on here, but I know that I literally tried to reach into my TV set to stop Cholly from pulling Kendrick for Lohse. Just seemed like a severe panic of those unquantifiable things that can really sway a game's momentum. Whatever.

Let's go Phils.

Willard Preacher- Do you go to penn state?

dajafi - I agree 100%. Going to Lohse at that point is just as serious as going to Gordon or Romero - he's your Game 4 starter, as we now know, and if you're gonna use him in that situation, it needs to be for an extended amount of time. To put him in, only to pinch-hit for him an inning later, is pretty idiotic. Romero would have been the much better option, in retrospect.

They got out-hit, out-pitched, and out-played, and when you couple that with bad managerial decisions, that's a 10-5 loss.

If Cholly was going to use Mesa, and he seemed to have a short leash, why not pull him after the 2 walks? I was sure Mesa was done after that, but alas...

"I know that I literally tried to reach into my TV set to stop Cholly from pulling Kendrick for Lohse."

Perfectly put. I haven't been so shocked (but again, not surprised) since Grady Little's infamous October evening in Yankee stadium.

I was a bit of a Sox fan in '03 (pre-series they were more fun) and I remember the helpless feeling; that this team you have invested so much time and emotion on is being piloted by a buffoon.

There is nothing to do; the manager makes a move that probably nobody else even considers, and you just have to sit there and take it.

This series has been so frustrating. Minus the first inning for Colorado, yesterday's game started off so promising! If we can take anything positive out of yesterday, I think that this would be that the bats were at least starting to come alive. Maybe it's just my extreme optimism, but I still feel that they can win these next two games. I know the odds are against them, but stranger things have happened.

Dajafi, you can't use Gordon or Myers there; it's not a video game.

Pitchers need time to warm up, and you don't start warming up Brett Myers in the 4th inning because you think there might be a 2-out, bases loaded jam later on.

Again, if Kendrick had been getting rocked that's one thing, but the fact that he was pulled after an 85-foot bleeder is just indefensible.

I'm a little dejected right now but all is not lost. We hope to come back and win this thing. Nobody wants to win more that we do. Myself, Bill Giles, the owners. And I mean nobody. Nobody.

In fact, he seemed to be settling down a bit. I understand the concept of IW (but not the execution of it at that point) but pulling Kendrick after a squib to 3rd? Made no sense. I also think it was unfair to Lohse to stick him in that situation.

I saw Monty at McFadden's Wednesday before Game 1, being interviewed by 950. He was introduced to the room and met with a standing ovation.

Just to recap what I said earlier.. Lohse was the worst person for the 'need one out here' spot. and Mesa should just stop it already. he should head home to his 35-yr old son and retire.

The Phillies have to win out here.. I'm not staying up until 2am on Sunday for no fricken' reason..

Kendrick gives up a cue shot to load the bases and Charlie brings in a starter with a bad flyball ratio. Stupid one.

Brings in Mesa. Stupid Two.

It's the freakin playoffs and you have an off day tomorrow. After Mesa goes 3-0 on the first batter the phone should start ringing. Instead no call is made until after two walks and a roped double. Stupid Three and we (the fans) are out.

But what do I know. I just pay $16k a year for season tickets and he is the manager of the year.

I was "lucky" enough to be at the game yesterday; just now recovered enough to catch up over here (although I have no intention of going back and reading the game thread; once was enough).

on the Kendrick hook - I've never heard a crowd react the way they did when Manuel came out of the dugout. hearing 45,000 people gasp in shock simultaneously is a unique experience. the fans literally could not believe it. even the inevitable response to Mesa's appearance (to quote my text message to a friend "JOSE F***ING MESA AAAAAGGH") didn't seem as harsh as the reception Manuel got when Kendrick stepped off the mound.

Just bought SRO tickets for Tuesday, should be good.

Also, good story from yesterday's game. A friend of mine who was there met Rowand's mom sitting behind home plate. He said lots of fans were begging her to encourage her son to resign with the Phils. She said she lives in the area and would love for him to resign.

I don't want to get too much in post season moves while the season is still going, but I've finally been swayed to the "I hope they resign Rowand" camp. Although I doubt it will happen, I do think his presence has made a difference this year in the locker room (let alone the field).

Does anyone know if F**KING is Mesa's actual last name? Because that's how I hear his name from all the fans. And they say all three names too, kind of like reporters do for murderers (ex Lee Harvey Oswald). Hmm..

Jason, Monty Python? For them, I could see the standing ovation, but the other Monty?

Not looking good. Not looking good at all. But after some careful analysis, I believe the Phillies really only need to pull off one unexpected win.
With Moyer on the mound Saturday, I like our chances. And if it gets to Game 5, we'll have Cole on the mound with an extra day's rest. (Hard to believe we'd lose two games at home with Hamels pitching.)

So it really comes down to Game 4, in my opinion. I can't say we'd be favored, but I can't imagine being labeled a heavy underdog against Josh Fogg, who got roughed up pretty good during the playoff against light-hitting San Diego.

I'm certainly not predicting a Phillies comeback. But I wasn't predicting them to win the East either.

Interesting point longwood, it's possible Cholly does win Manager of the Year because the votes are already in.

Has the Manager of the Year ever been fired?

Oh wait, duh! Girardi last year.

Question: If (And I know it is a big, if but it is still just two games, two road games: been done plenty of times before) the Phillies win the two games in Colorado, does anyone doubt that the Phillies win the game tuesday with Hamels on the mound? I'd be surprised if the Rockies got 3 hits.

By the way, if the Phillies bats wake up, the Rockies better watch out. And they better hope Jiminez has a lot of composure because the Phillies are not going down lightly. Who esle do they throw at us in game 4 (If it goes there)? Fogg?? These two games are very winnable. You beat a rookie and then some retread. I don't think the Rockies would dare throw out Francis in game 4, knowing that if they lose it, they would probably have to go with a rookie in game 5.

Last year, Joe Girardi was manager of the year with the Marlins and was fired.

kdon - I believe Girardi was MOY with the Marlins and was let go.

After careful consideration, I agree that these next two games are winnable if only for the fact that they are throwing a rookie, and then Josh Fogg, at our lineup. Only question is if they've packed it in or are focused and ready to attack. I feel strangely confident in Moyer for Saturday night, he gets it done in big spots (this is all barring the umpire, of course) and has since he got here. The Rockies lineup is not this good, they are just on a serious roll right now. Gotta stop sometime, right?

Also, upon further review, I think I may agree with dajafi: if you pull Kendrick there, bring in a guy who you KNOW is going to get an out. Only sure out in our bullpen: Romero. Turns Matsui around and Romero is used to coming in in the middle of those types of jams. If you're planning on using Lohse, bring him in to start the 5th. Ideally he'll take you to the 7th on 50 pitches. Insert Gordon where need be, have him pitch the 8th, the end. Yes, hindsight is 20/20, and Manuel shouldn't have hooked Kendrick to begin with, but he still could've made a smarter move though it'd have been confusing at the time.

I still have 100% faith, moronically as it may seem. This only happens once every 14 years so I'm keeping hope alive until the last out; what fun would it be giving up at this point?

Thanks guys, I remembered that right after hitting "post."

Does anyone else have an issue with Hamels on this?

"There is no chance Cole Hamels would pitch on short rest in Game 4.
"No," Hamels said "It's too much of a risk. It's something where, I would rather pitch Game 5, because it's something about getting to that next level, that next stage. I don't know if it's selfish. Some people might take it that way, but I think it would be better for me to go on my normal days' rest because of the track record. I know they understand that and I understand it," Hamels said. "That's why, mentally, I'm not going to alter the schedule. That's what they asked me to get prepared for, one and five, and that's what I'm going to do."

Note to Cole: You're needed. There may not be a Game 5.

Iceman, read my comment above. It's a nice idea in theory, but you can't have your late inning guys warming up in the 4th inning just in case something happens.

Kendrick was fine. It was one double, an intentional walk, and a cheap hit. This was not a guy getting knocked around. Dajafi is a smart guy, but I think he is overthinking this one.

BV2ST: no the other pitchers need to get it done and the hitters need to hit to get it to game 5. He is definately not pitching in game 3, and if there is a game 4, I would rather save Hamels for a potential game 5. At some point other guys have to produce, whether that is Kendrick or Lohse.

I agree on Cole.

I remember in September when people were questioning his dedication. At the time, I ripped (I think) RSB in particular.

Well, add this as another data point that Cole is selfish. I can see not wanting to injure yourself in the regular season, but this is the playoffs! He should be asking to pitch.

Charlie Manuel time and time again continues to make poor pitching changes. The whole year he has lifted pitchers way too early to go into the bullpen. Unexcusable call by Manuel to take Kendrick out. His stupid tactical decisions got magnified in the playoffs and the team paid the price. If it wasn't for that grand slam it would have been a game at least. Thanks Cholly for screwing up yet again.

Kendrick was getting lit up. 2 bombs, 2 more doubles to lead off innings, walks... If he was lucky of anything it was that score was only 3-2 when he left. I have no problem taking Kendrick out there. Now WHO he used to bring in, that's a different story.

They should throw Mesa out of the window on the plane to Colorado. He's completely useless, and as dajafi said, embarrasing to be on a playoff roster.

although I think Hamels phrased that in the absolute worst way possible, I don't think he should be starting a game four.

I just got to thinking about this during the off day, amongst all of the talk of how we might unload some extra baggage this off season and improve our beloved Phightin's...

How about this parrallel: Adam Eaton = Andy Ashby.

Remember when Andy Ashby was signed back in 2000 after becoming an All Star with SD? The feeling was that Ashby could help the Phillies starting rotation and big things were expected, even talk of contending, after Ashby chose to come to Philly via free agency. He started his career as a Phillie but was traded away early on to the Padres where he blossomed, but was absolutley abysmal here, when he won only 4 of 16 starts. The fans hated him more than we do Eaton. Ashby hated it here because of the loathing from the Phillies fans. It was a bad marriage from the get-go. We eventually traded him away for some young arms. All seems sort of eerily similar somehow. Come to think of it, maybe we can trade Adam Eaton for Bruce Chen?

No way Hamels should pitch Game 4. He's not being selfish, he's being smart.

We need to win three games. What's the point of pitching him in Game 4 on short rest where he may be less effective if we're going to pitch Moyer or Lohse in Game 5 anyway?

We need to win three games. Moyer, Lohse and Hamels each need to win one of those games. If it meant bringing Hamels back on short rest to win Game 5, I'd imagine we'd all be singing a different tune.

Ae, just looking at Cole's stats:

On 4 days rest:
28 GS, 3.65 ERA, .729 OPS Against

5 days:
14 GS, 3.23 ERA, .623 OPS Against

I guess I'm okay with Cole in a possible game 5, but I would at least want him to ask to pitch Sunday.

You can get away with a lot of mistakes in the season and win a division, but in the playoffs all of your warts are exposed as lethal vulnerabilities.

Not aggressively going after the 8-hole hitter is classic Manuel. How many times have you seen him walk the 8 hitter -- who, after all, is usually hitting 8 for a reason -- presumably to get to the pitcher, and then get burned? It's a p@ssy move, but he nearly always does it, and in the playoffs his pussdom gets exposed. Similarly, Manuel tolerated Smith's lame 3rd base coaching all year, and he gets burned on that when Helms fails to go.

I'm trying to keep the faith, but I fear that his moves in the 4th inning yesterday are going to put him in that special place reserved for Mauch, Ozark, and Fregosi. The anger in the stands when he pulled Kendrick was palpable and merited. People can trash Philly all they want, but I was sitting in a crowd that clearly understood the short and long-term implication of that b.s. move


In the hypothetical Cole game 4 start, Kendrick would pitch game 5 on full rest.

Tony -- he was getting 'lit up' because he gave up 2 doubles in 3 innings after settling down? He was fine. He's been pulling rabbits out of hats all year in those situations.

kdon -- I do understand what you're saying, but I'm trying to make the logical leap Cholly made assuming Kendrick should be pulled at that point in the game. If I someone muddled my way into that line of thinking, the best plan would still be to get a SURE OUT. If he's pressing the panic button (which we all agree he was), just go all out for Christ sake. My #1 job as manager, in my opinion, would be to do anything possible to keep Mesa, Condrey, or Alf out of the game while it's still in reach. By bringing in Lohse there he ensured that would happen.

So to recap that confusing paragraph: I agree with you it's not ideal, and I agree that Manuel shouldn't have even stepped out of the dugout, but if he was going to make the [moronic] move anyway, he might as well have pulled out all the stops.


Fair enough. Perhaps I'm in the minority in feeling better at this point about Moyer-Lohse-Hamels, all on full rest then Moyer-Hamels-Kendrick with Hamels on short rest.

No, Hamels shouldn't be starting Game Four. Short rest, coming off a hopefully minor injury, thin air, good lineup. You try to win and get it back to him for Game Five.

kdon, I get your reasoning but disagree. If they'd had Lohse warming, you might as well have had Romero or Gordon warming. As the events showed, if you don't stop the Rockies there you might not need those guys later in the game, and with the off-day today it doesn't so much matter anyway.

I like Lohse, but Manuel didn't put him in a position to succeed there.

And FWIW, I also would have left Kendrick in to begin with--my whole argument is predicated upon the assumption that Charlie was determined to take the kid out.

Also, if that really is Dave Montgomery and you really want the team to win, a one-word plea:


The team has won in spite of your egregious mismanagement, not because of it. You've hired mostly dimwits and toadies, you built a ballpark that's a joke, and you've consistently put profitability and "entertainment" ahead of what really draws in the fans (and creates profit)--success.

We love the guys in uniform; we loathe you and your tribe of suited, moneyed brain donors.

The investment your bosses made has appreciated about 20 times, and you're riding a wave of public approbation right now because they finally broke through. Get out and salvage something of a legacy before you put Ruben Amaro in the GM spot and watch him do to our beloved team what your one-time colleague in Texas has done to our beloved country.

They need to win every game, so it really doesn't matter if Hamels waits til the 5th. They still need 2 of those 3 wins from Moyer and someone. The way he said it was crappy though. He's turning into a diva with these comments and the "if we're still in it" business.

I was at the game, and it was amazing that only one person in CBP thought it was a good idea to pull our starter in the 4th after a 60 foot squibber. Sadly, that one person manages our team. I have to admit I have been schitzo on Charlie all year. One minute I love the calm he brings to the clubhouse, the next I am pulling my hair out because of his pitching moves. But on it's entirety, I really wish there was some way to demote him to bench coach and bring in a real manager with an IQ over 30. (cough cough).

Oops, for some reason it left out the manager between my coughs. Joe Girardi.

Any way we could just tell the players Cholly's the manager, give him a 3-year deal to just sit there and have Girardi radio in decisions from the box seats?

Dajafi -- I don't know if you typed that up just now, but that was a thing of beauty.

Some reply's...

- Ice Man, that is exactly how it should have played out. Cholly seemed intent on removing his starting pitcher as soon as Hurdle removed his. He couldn't wait to break out Lohse, even if it was at the wrong time and situation, matching his move with Hurdle's. We'll never know. What I do know is that Joe Girardi would not have made that move. I've been beating the Girardi for manager drum all season long. I might as well stay the course.

- As for Cole: He knows his physical limitations better than any of us. He has a history of arm trouble and I can't blame him for being cautious. The guys who make up the list of prospects and former big league pitcher's who never made it because of arm problems, far and away, is much longer than the guys who went on to have stellar careers. Look no farther than Kerry Wood. With the Phillies paying him near a Value Village salary, the days of old are over, where players just wanted a chance to play. Today's athlete is much more in tune to what his value is. Cole's commodity is his arm. He can pitch now and risk it all, or wait for his big payday when he can be signed by Boston or the Yankees for 10x what he is making for the Phillies right now. Sorry guys, it is easy for us to say we'd play, because we all would. Here's the problem. While we would give our arm for that one chance to pitch in the bigs, we aren't gambling with our careers. Cole is. Plain and simple.

it's true that it's a lot easier for guys with guaranteed money like Myers and Gordon to say they're willing to pitch whenever necessary than it is for a guy like Hamels, who's (comparatively) making peanuts.

I just wish he would've chosen to make more intelligent comments to journalists - or better yet, don't say a damn thing and work it out behind closed doors.

I'm in the camp with those who think Hamels should pitch game 5. Why use him early if you need to win two games without him anyway? Plus it's an injury risk, etc. etc. Makes no practical sense.

On the other hand, his comments continue to sound selfish. Wish he would word it better. Something like "I'll take the ball whenever they give it to me, but Cholly decides what's best for the team," something along the lines of what Kendrick said yesterday after the game. Be politically correct, for crying out loud. He sounds like a primadonna, and he also sounds more and more like a guy who will end up in pinstripes -- not the red kind, unfortunately.

ae: I'm not sure Hamels is real adept at saying things the right way. Unfortunately, if he chooses to be silent on the issue, he risks crucifiction anyway. I'm sure he'll learn.

I'm really enjoying the optimism on this thread going into Colorado with a two game deficit. It gives me hope that not everyone has completely given up.

true, CJ.

it didn't take long for Carlton to realize that talking to the media was generally a lose-lose proposition, and that was a much less media-driven time. hopefully that's another lesson Hamels can take from Lefty's career.

Absolutely true that Hamels could have phrased that comment better, as was also true of what he said last month. I agree with him on the merits and that far outweighs the presentation, but with the Philadelphia media and fan base you're graded on style points too. Hopefully this is something Cole picks up as he gains experience.

@ Mr. Mac - interesting you compared Eaton to Andy Ashby, because who did the Phillies trade to San Diego for Ashby? Adam Eaton.

Imagine it had been Hamels in that situation instead of Kendrick. You think it would have even crossed Cholly's mind to remove him? Well, Kendrick has been our No. 2 pitcher. It's inconceivable that you would take him out there -- and even more so, with our thin bullpen. The more I think about it, the more vexed I become.

I expect this idea will be roundly criticized, but in the spirit of brainstorming, I will throw it out there: what about Brett Myers as Game 4 starter? Myers is one of the few pitchers who has actually excelled at Coors Field. In 4 starts there, he is 4-0 with a 2.63 ERA.

In Game 1 of the 1950 World Series, the Phillies started their Cy Young Award winning reliever, Jim Konstanty, who hadn't made a start in 4 years. He ended up going 8 innings & allowing 1 run in a 1-0 loss. Starting Myers requires much less flight of fancy than starting Konstanty.

Of course, before any decision needs to be made on Game 4, there's still that small matter of winning Game 3.

Guys, it's my fault. I tried being positive and believing all week and, simply, it didn't work.

So I shaved my playoff "beard" this morning and I'm resigned to not getting my hopes up.

I still think they go five. The Rockies, to clinch the series, have to win three in a row. They can't win three in a row if the Phillies do first. Yes. I just stated the obvious.

Here's to hoping Moyer gives them seven solid, and Lohse wants to avenge giving up a grand slam to Kaz freaking Matsui.

Go Phils.

Not living in Philly, I haven't had the opportunity to hear Cholly speak all that much, but I listened to his pre-game show with Wheels yesterday and I could not figure out what the hell he was talking about, so it's difficult to understand his thought(?) process sometimes.

BAP, I hear you on that. BUT, it's 2007 and pitchers aren't men anymore.

b_a_p -- that would be an amazing story. i hope the Phils get the chance to even think of making that decision.

I was at the game, just drove home, and have been reading up.

I liked the move to pull Kendrick. He was getting hard all game, and got some long outs. Ill always take Lohse over Kendrick if I have to get one batter out. It didnt work. But I think he made the right move. I know I am in the minority, but whatever.

BAP, that's a really interesting idea. It will probably be mocked by some on here, and Manuel doesn't have the creativity to make it happen, but the thought of it is intriguing. One thing is for sure: you know he'd take the ball.

I wrote in the Beerleaguer “Pregame: Phillies try to slay inexperienced Morales thread” during that game at 4:31 PM when the pinch hitter was announced after Kendricks loaded the bases: “Why are they taking Morales out of the game? He only pitched 3 innings. Why start using up your pen? Hurdle must be dumber than Cholly!”

Then two minutes later, at 4:33 PM, I wrote: “So Seth gets a single and Cholly sends Kendricks to the showers!? It's only 3-2. Who will we bring in? 12 Fingers? Joe Table?”

Then four minutes later, at 4:37 PM, I wrote: “Great move Cholly!!! Kendrick could have done no worse!!! Grand slam. Argghh!!”

That was my impression at the time. It was a 3-2 game at the top of the 4th, and I gave Hurdle grief for pulling his starting pitcher in a one run game, then, Cholly does the same thing!

I think part of the job requirement to be a manager is not brains; it’s got to be goat photos!

Would it surprise anyone if Cholly is not invited back next season?
He hasn't been rewarded with a contract extension for his efforts as of today.


The reason could not figure out what the hell he was talking about, is Cholly has no thought process.

The only positive thing about the Fightin's post season play is (hopefully) the final time we'll need to suffer through Cholly's moron decisions.

Cole's chiropractor probably told him to wear long sleeves on Wednesday and is probably demanding the "full" rest period as well. Suck it up!!!

JD posted- "Not living in Philly, I haven't had the opportunity to hear Cholly speak all that much, but I listened to his pre-game show with Wheels yesterday and I could not figure out what the hell he was talking about, so it's difficult to understand his thought(?) process sometimes."

I listen to him a lot on XM and on tv, and must admit that I can decipher Aboriginal clicks better than Manuel's bumbling backwood bumpkin speech pattern.

New topic: Cole Hamels. Per Zolecki in Inquirer:

There is no chance Cole Hamels would pitch on short rest in Game 4.

"No," Hamels said yesterday after the team's 10-5 loss to the Rockies in Game 2. "It's too much of a risk. It's something where, I would rather pitch Game 5, because it's something about getting to that next level, that next stage. I don't know if it's selfish. Some people might take it that way, but I think it would be better for me to go on my normal days' rest because of the track record."

Hamels missed more than a month this season because of a strained left elbow. Another elbow injury forced him to miss much of the 2004 season in the minor leagues.

"I know they understand that and I understand it," Hamels said. "That's why, mentally, I'm not going to alter the schedule. That's what they asked me to get prepared for, one and five, and that's what I'm going to do."

... thoughts?

Well, Hamels is a egotistical prick, but he definitely has a right to be. He's the best guy we got.

Just to clarify, he's the best kind of egotistical prick.

And yeah, better to start him in game five anyway. Don't want to kill him for 2008 with short rest. Lohse will be better starting, not coming in during the 4th.

GM - LOL! I feel better, because I thought I was pulling in some international streaming internet radio station. Wasn't sure it was really from Philly.

Kendricks gotten out of jam after jam all year, he earned the right to pitch to Matzui and Torrealba. But Kendrick had gotten eaten up by Matzui so I think Manuel has a reason to switch pitchers.

However, that was the key spot in the game and Hurdle had just pinch hit for his starter. Key spots should dictate when you go with your best not the inning number.

For matsui, you go with one of your best. Probably, JC Romero and then try to pitch him one more inning and then go to Lohse for the 6th and 7th. I hate how Manuel saves guys for the 7th inning or later when often the crucial point is earlier in the game. We saw it all year with pintch hitters. Useless guys pinch hit with 2-3 people on base in the 5th or 6th, so our best pinch hitters can hit with no one on and 1 or 2 outs in the 8th or 9th.

I'm arriving in Denver tomorrow and will do my best to cheer Jamie and the boys to victory tomorrow night!

It's tough to blame Cole when he's really the only one who has done his job in the postseason thus far. Sure, he didn't blank the Rockies, but for his first ever playoff game against a top-5 major league offense, he did enough. If he doesn't think he can/should start Game 4, then he shouldn't. As of right now, the Yanks don't have Wang scheduled to start Game 4, nor do the Indians have Sabathia. I agree that he needs to learn what to say and when to say it, but I agree with the sentiment behind it.

From Jason Stark's chat on
Jason (Houston, TX): Do the Phillies resign Rowand for next year? If not, who plays CF for them, Victorino? Also, who can the Phillies get to improve their rotation, or is their main issue their bullpen?

Jayson Stark: (1:48 PM ET ) I wouldn't say it's a lock that Rowand is gone. But the vibe continues to be that they don't think that plowing $10 million into one of their few positions with any depth makes sense. So I'd guess he goes, Victorino moves to center, they chase Mike Lowell to play third and then Greg Dobbs and Jayson Werth end up in the outfield mix next year as they try to spend their money on pitching. I think they'll miss Rowand more than they even realize. But they haven't asked my advice.

I know it is off topic, but in previous years, with the Phils sitting at home in October, Beerleaguer would take a look at Baseball Americas Pospect Lists. There is not a lot to report, but saw that Kyle Kendrick was the 14th best prospect in the Eastern League. But, more fun reading was number 19 prospect, Mike Costanzo. "He earned comparisons to Russell Branyon for his prodigious lefthanded power, and eratic play at 3rd base...Costanzo evokes Branyon also for his strikeouts (157 in 508 at bats)....Let's go Phils

If he's not ready for Game 4, he shouldn't pitch. I'd rather see a rested and ready Lohse than an ineffective Hamels.

Let's just hope that away from home they realize that "Hey, that rally we had the other day wasn't for the World Series Championship!" That would be nice. Maybe some heavy adversity will light the fires under these boys.

I'll be at both games (if we win) over the weekend so they better show up!

Side note: It's supposed to be in the upper 40's both nights this weekend. Anyone else think that will factor into the game? Sunday the high is only 47 degrees. I doubt the bats will be alive.

Lotto Costanzo? Love it!

Ribbies, how did you get tuesday tickets? did u get an email from the team?

I'm so tired of the "suck it up" posters regarding Cole Hamels. If you don't understand:
a. Hamels value to this team in the long term
b. The value of ROUTINE to a pitching staff.
c. Hamels penchant for giving up the long ball.
d. The Value of having Hamels going in Game 5 with a HOME crowd.
e. Anyone Remember Gene Mauch and 1964?

than you are just an overreacting typical Phillies fan as heard on WIP with little understanding of the actual game.

Sure I would love it if Hamels said, give me the ball. But HE knows... that to get to the NEXT Level you have to win Game 5. And the fact that he and his team thinks that there is a going to be a GAME 5 is all I need to know about this team.

I'd be more comfortable with Kendrick going on Sunday. I think he pitches Sunday. (Whether he starts or not.)

And I wouldn't be surprised if Myers said, give me the ball on Sunday. Tell Charlie he can pitch 3 or 4 innings then bring in Kendrick or Lohse to finish it up. What a MOVE that would be. I don't think the Rockies would be prepared for that.

I had slim hope early this morning, now I'm talking about a game 5. There must be something wrong with me.

Final Score of Game 3: 15-14 Phils.

I don't mind Hamels' quotes, in theory. I understand the logic and it's completely rational. It's nice to see an athlete speak the truth too, instead of cliches.

But it'd also be nicer if he'd just not talk about it. It's not worth getting everyone in town all riled up..

I still will take a different tack and not criticize Cholly criticize for bringing in Lohse to pitch to Matsui. Lohse had good stuff yesterday. He just made a horrendous pitch (missed his target by over two feet) to Matsui. Otherwise, his stuff was sharp.

Matsui is a fastball hitter and you want to give him a steady diet of offspeed stuff. Unfortunately, Kendrick was leaving his breaking ball elevated in the zone yesterday and missing the corner consistently with it. Kendrick just couldn't throw his breaking ball for a strike.

Another thing that is not mentioned is the dogsh!t pitch selection by Ruiz yesterday to both Matsui and Yorvit in the 4th.

They didn't challenge Yorvit at all. Ruiz had Kendrick throw a couple of breaking balls outside that badly missed the plate and got behind in the count. Cholly then compounded the issue by intentionally walking Yorvit on a 3-1 count (an awful move that I feel was as questionable as any move he made all day).

You need to challenge this guy. Yorvit struggles with RHP most times and has no speed. Especially foolish because you figured Hurdle would PH for Morales if Yorvit got on.

The most maddening thing to me yesterday what that the Phils got beat by the two worst guys in the Rockies' lineup - Matsui and Yorvit.

That is why I was so angry after yesterday's game. If you get beat by an MVP-type player like Holliday, it happens. Instead, you got beat by two hitters who really struggle on the road and don't hit RHP well at all.

Phils deserve to lose this series if they get beat by scrubs like Matsui and Yorvit.

Loctastic- I agree with you. But to Cole, its all about Cole. He could have said any number of things, he chose to comment about himself. Did Charlie ask him to pitch early? Don't get me wrong, he is talented, but he is not God. If he was, it wouldn't be 0-2 right now. Perhaps Carlton's approach regarding the press was the right one.

Charlie made a lot of poor decisions! Everyone loves Chase, but if he is not hitting, use Iguchi. How come it was okay to bench Victorino for Werth, who went 0-3 and made a couple of bad plays in the outfield. And why did Charlie leave Mesa out so long. And he should have never taken out Kendricks when he did.

Ugh. That Gland Slam by Matsui was his first HR on the road all year. He played 55 games on the road and hadn't hit a HR until yesterday.

I was also really frustrated that the Phils got shut down by Josh Fogg yesterday. Fogg is the definition of mediocre journeyman and yet he totally shut down the Phils scoreless for nearly 2 innings.

I say it again by the Phils have really let scrubs kill them the first 2 games. You can't afford to do that in the playoffs and have any chance of winning.


Victorino : Werth :: Utley : Iguchi?

no. doesn't work.

I wonder if the "scrubs" feel a lot less pressure than the superstars. There have been more than a few championship series where there have been unlikely heroes. Who knows, maybe LaForest will hit a game winning homer?

Unfortunately, JD, "Pistol Pete" isn't on the NLDS roster. This also means that Adam Eaton will not emerge from the pen in Game 5, Rick Vaughn-style, to strike out Matt Holliday in the 9th.

Who knows, maybe LaForest will hit a game winning homer?

Settle down there, JD. Settle down.

Why? Because he's Chase it's okay to go 0-4 in one game and then only get a single in the next game. The point of the game is to win. It's not a popularity contest.


Benching Chase after a bad game is a bad idea.

Take a look at the Rockies' big name hitters and with the exception of Holiday (who is 3-9 with 2 HR, 3 RBIs), the Rockies big guns have really struggled:

Tulowski 2-8, 1 R, 1 HR, 2 RBI, but 4 K
Helton 1-9, 1 R, 2 K
Atkins 2-9, 2 R, 1 RBI, 1 K
Hawpe 1-7, 1 R, 5 K

Not compare that to the scrubs:

Yorvit 3-7, 2 R, 3 RBI and no K
Matsui 3-9, 1 R, 5 RBI, 2 K
Spilborghs 1-5, 2 R, 3 BB, 2 K

The Phils just aren't getting out the Rockies' worst hitters.

Clearly, the only options we have are to bench Chase Utley and trade Ryan Howard. Maybe even send this Hamels kid back to the minors, he's got a big mouth.

MV - yes, because he's Chase Utley, and Chase Utley happens to be one of the best players in baseball, even if he has two bad days in a row.

Myno, good point. Maybe we could trade Howard and try to get Russell Branyon back.

ae: I know you're arguing for the *right* conclusion, but didn't Chase have two hits yesterday and one very well-hit out? I count one bad day.

This game was lost due to their inability to get the bottom of the Rockies lineup out in the early innings. Kendrick gets through the 8-9-1 of the Rockies order, the GS doesn't happen and Mesa probably doesn't pitch.

One game at a time. I hate the *way* in which the Phils lost the first two games. Gah.

Final comments on Cole (from me, anyway):

While I understand the risks (both organizational and personal) of Cole starting on 3 days rest, it is only one game.

Pitcher injuries occur because of prolonged abuse, not one game on 3 days rest before 5 months of the offseason. Cole has had all of September to rest; it's dissapointing that in a possible must-win game, he wouldn't even offer his services.

I backed Cole in September when, it appears, he wasn't even injured, because I thought the *prolonged* abuse of 3 or 4 starts on a tired arm was too much to risk. But this is a different scenario.

I agree with ae that it is really Cole's language that is more upsetting than the decision. Based on the numbers I posted above, Cole is better on 5 days rest than 4 days rest, so it's safe to assume he might not be at his best on 3 days rest. I have no real problem with keeping him for game 5. BUT, this should be an organizational decision, not a player decision.

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EST. 2005

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