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Saturday, September 08, 2007


I want to be the first comment on this thread, and I want my comment to sum up the Phils current state- LOSERS/CHOKE-ARTISTS!!!

uninspired describes yesterday's game alright...which is a real bummer given how hard this team has played all year despite being shorthanded in certain departments and having tons of injuries. but after the debacle in atlanta, it wasn't totally unexpected. you can't help but feel it's over, but if they're like every other phillies team in recent memory, they've probably got a 5-game winning streak left in them to get our hopes up before crushing it with a sweep by the nats.

RSB: Love the groundhog-as-mascot idea. The Phanatic's routine is getting old anyway, and remember what that groundhog's act is -- he scratches a lot, right? Perfect for a team that might as well have fleas.

For the record, the Phillies have more than the Padres to worry about. They are now behind 2 teams in the WC: Padres & Dodgers and tied with a third: The Rockies. That's the trouble with the WC: Save ground on one team, lose ground to 2 others. And for a team that's been repeatedly declared dead on Beerleaguer, that D'backs corpse is still pretty lively, no?

clout: Good luck starting a debate on that one. Most of us have given up on the season at this point. When your starters give you a chance to with only 2 of every 5 games, it's pretty much over.

that should read "to WIN" only 2 of every 5 games...

Clout, youre right, but, the Phils still have a chance (and a decent one) if they get off their butts and play baseball.

Remarkably, the Phillies have gone cold at the exact time as the team leading them in the Wild Card and to some extent the teams trailing them. Some of the teams have overlapping games (Pads vs. Rocks). The Phils really need to finish out this FIsh series. If they could do this, they would be 1 behind the sinking Padres. Of course that would also put the Rockies in the same position, potentially tied with the Dodgers (Who also choked last night). Coincedentally the Phils open up a series with, you guessed it, the Rockies, next week. So to some extent, assuming (as I have been) the pending Padres collapse, the Phillies still control their destiny to some extent in the Wild Card. Beat the Rockies, hope Milton Bradley stays healthy, and keep on plugging and this team is going to be right in it. With 10 games left with the Nationals, that seems possible to me, despite their struggles with the Nats.

@Tray: still clinging to those Padres?? D-Backs are proving that a team that "Can't hit" does not need to when you have a good rotation and the best (arguably) bullpen in the league. I of course do not agree with the sentiment that the D-backs cannot hit, but that is a whole different debate that we have precviously engaged in.

This one wasn't on poor Durbin. If the usual suspects make routine plays in the 2nd, we're still playing.

The funny thing was to hear Fish announcers talk about what an "excellent" fielding team the Phillies were while 3 unearned runs were scoring.

Durbin has only finished the fifth inning in 5 of his 9 starts. Nothing about his AAA performance indicated that he was ready for a promotion, and I think by now he has removed all doubt.

Actually no, he has only finished the fifth inning in 4 of his 9 starts.

thank you jimmy, shane, chase, ryan, aaron, pat, greg, carlos, chris c, michael, jayson, tadohito, even wes, abe, and chris r. good effort guys. i mean it. things looked bad from the start but you did what you had to and hung tight as long as you could; which was much longer than anyone could have expected. you might not know it yet but, for the most part, you all have a pass for at least one year. use it well.
now for the hard part, the pithchers. we started with six and ended with one. mr. moyer, you did all you could. i commend you for going out every five days and trying. you pitched as well as you could, and beyond that, you ran out every ground ball you hit. it did not go unnoticed. yet, in the end it was not enough. you gave the better part of your life to baseball. we thank you, but the time has come for you to call it a carear. the same can be said for flash and joe table. effort appreciated, but age is age. as for the young mr. hammels, mr. moyer's protoge, you spent most of the year as our crown jewel, but then at crunch time you ran and hid. you should understand that mlb postseason births are hard to come by and even golden boys need to lay it all out when the time comes. this is the east coast! this is not sunny socal. when its time to get your division, please be ready, sore arm and all. don't ruin your future, but don't run away as soon as you feel your own elbow. this is september baseball after all.
adam eaton, we owe you a ton of money, but not a ton of innings. you need to earn those. hopefully your contract does not earn you a spot in the rotation.
freddy and john, goodbye and no thank you.
ohh brett myers, you dufus you. million dollar arm ten cent brain.
kyle kendrick, great job. see you in clearwater. get ready. it is your spot to lose.
kyle, we have no beef. you handled yourself well. i will take you as a fifth anytime.
jd durbin, if spring works out for you, you can earn a bullpen spot. you too JC.
fancisco, geoff, ryan, kane, etc, etc, etc good luck.

If the Phils are gonna mail it in (and I'm not saying they will - but they didn't seem to be their ususal inspired selves last night) - if they're gonna mail it in anyway, why not drop all 22? It oughta move us up about 6 - 10 places in the draft.

Oh, wait... the draft is the Pitter Pat and Rube show! What am I thinking? C'mon boys, win it while you can!!!!

More seriously: regarding compensation for free agents. Lohse, Garcia, Lieber and Iguchi are listed. If someone picks them up (in a few cases we can only hope someone's that desparate) what kind of picks will we get? (We already have a supplemental between the 3rd and 4th for the unsigned Brandon Workman.)

You know I doubt Ennis can be as bad as the guy opposing him. Rick VandenHurk has posted a Durbin-like 6.84 ERA.

B Ruffin: worse than that. In his brief stop in AAA, he gave up 3 runs in 12 innings, which doesn't look too bad, until you notice that they6 were all on solo homers, and he also gave up 4 walks. I think there's potential for the Phils to light him up - if they can get motivated.

The silver lining in all this uninspired play, losing to teams you have beat, and blowing huge leads is that this should seal Cholly and Dubee's fate. If anything, that is big.

I will be down at The Bank today and tomorrow to inspect this flat team...hopefully they feel my presence and win the next 2. Their record in games I go to is pretty damn good, so hopefully that continues.

On the Cole news...I have a feeling it is too late. This injury (and Madson's)aboslutely devatstated this team and no one, but Kendrick (and maybe Loshe) has stepped up. In looking back at all the Phillie teams of my life, it is an aboslute embarrassment on how poor this staff and pitching coach are. Scary thing is that is requires a complete overhaul and do we trust Gillick & Co to get it done? Nope.

Wish me and our Sillies luck down at The Bank...they need IT vs. THE WORST TEAM IN THE NATIONAL LEAGUE!

Parker - in reply to yesterday. Sorry, I didn't tune in at home last night. Watched the game while out to dinner and was too aggravated to post. (not at you, at the Phils)

My point was that all of the clubs who have implemented the Moneyball mentality seem to be doing something right. Those clubs are: New York Mets, New York Yankees, San Diego Padres, St. Louis Cardinals, Boston Red Sox, Washington Nationals, Arizona Diamondbacks, Cleveland Indians, and the Toronto Blue Jays. All of those clubs have gone against traditional baseball thinking and have hired full time statistical analysts.

Honestly, it is a lot more time than I could spend pouring over such statistics, but since some guys love to do it, I don't mind reading their findings. All that I'm saying is, whatever system the Phillies are using, it hasn't been lost on me that a club who is boasting only one championship in 125 years might want to re-think their way of doing things.

yep, Eaton picthed pretty poorly last night, but if Howard doesnt throw the ball away its a different game

actually I mean Durbin, I am just so used to typing that about Eaton

curt: Yeah, Durbin was dazzling. No one can argue with allowing 5 hits, 4 BB, 2 doubles and a HR in 4 IP. Nice job!

I have tickets for tomorrow's game (Sunday package). Up until now I have not had trouble finding someone to go with when issuing an invitation. As of now, tomorrow's spare ticket is unused.

Such is the current perception of this Phillies team.

Hey Bill and Davey Boy, keep that little anecdote in mind in the offseason. Unless you bolster your pitching staff, we're all going to realize that the team has no chance of competing next year, despite Seattle Stew's pronouncement that 2008 is the year.

How you bolster the staff is up to you. You'll probably have to overpay for some free agent bullpen arms, and will be forced to overpay for a marginal starter.

Let's look at what you have coming back:

Moyer - good for maybe 10 wins, but on the downside and erratic; can't be counted on every 5 days anymore

Hamels - stud, but an injury risk; not willing to risk his health without a long-term deal in place (at least he's smart enough not to ruin his career for incompetent owners like you)

Kendrick - a nice find, good #4 or 5, you got lucky here because you really didn't have a clue he'd be this good (see remark above regarding your competence)

Durbin - young, possible head case, has an arm but you don't know what you're getting every time out (do you really want to count on that)

Eaton - my first reaction: the rational reaction: so far, probably the worst FA signing since you've owned the team; please explain what in his track record prior to this year could possibly have motivated you to give him the deal you gave him; you signed him to Brett Myers type money despite a below average career ERA+, with no recent improvement. do you really want to count on him next year?

Now the bullpen:

Myers - maybe too much of a head case to be a lockdown closer

Madson - decent middle reliever and possible setup man if not overused

Romero - has been decent #s for the Phils, but his long-term record is average could be a LOOGY

Anybody else?

Have fun trying to convince the fans and the talking heads at WIP that you're going to be capable of rebuilding the staff. You don't have a very good track record, so we'll be watching very closely.

BTW, Dave and Bill, I sincerely hope the Phils make the playoffs this year, but I'm realistic enough to know that with the pitching staff you've put together the chances are very slim and getting slimmer. Oh, and don't use the injury crutch - every other team has had their share of them.

Time for football in October. Again!

"whatever system the Phillies are using, it hasn't been lost on me that a club who is boasting only one championship in 125 years might want to re-think their way of doing things."

Mr. Mac, I don't think you can go back 125 years in your analysis. However, if you focus on the Giles/Montgomery years (the last 25), where the team has made one lightning-in-a-bottle playoff appearance, despite operating the franchise in the fifth largest market, your analysis is still valid. Clearly, they are not doing what is necessary to make the playoffs.

As much as his negativity grates, Howard Eskin is probably correct: This team will win nothing with this ownership group. Is it money? Probably not. Is it BASEBALL competence? Well, I think we all know the answer to that.

The failure of this team lies w/ Gillick. The 'pen has been a total flop, yet he refused to make any moves. There were several pitchers who cleared waivers who couldn't possibly be worse than Mesa, Condrey, Castro, etc. Gordon is finished. Also, where's Julio Mateo? Surely he could get an out or two.

Dear Mr. Giles & Mr. Montgomery,

I have decided not ot renew my advertising contract with your ball club next year. I run an honest, hard working, loyal company, and feel that it would be a conflict of interest to continue our relationship.

The money that the loyal fans put out to see the product that you and your upper management run onto the field night, after night, is in sharp contrast to what my corporation believes in. I also feel my value system in giving the people a fine product for their dollar has also been compromised.

I feel that players one through seven in the line up, generally speaking, are good men. However I do have a hard time understanding the 3B position however, especially after watching numbers 20 and 17 hold it down so well in years past. The Helms and Nunez fellows that you employ, well, in my opinion, flat out suck.

Also the area of the field that you call a mound, certainly seems to have produced quite a bit of discontent amongst the loyal following you have at CBP night after night. Why does this mound area remind me of the mound that my dog leaves after a rather large meal and a vigorous walk? If I were running your squad, I would be sure to never dial #2 on the keypad. Those Spanish speaking fellows who answer it, seem to habitually find ways for you to lose. Yet Mr. Gillick, who is in your employ, forces Uncle Charlie to dial it anyway. Such a pity.

In closing, I feel my dollars would be better spent, say perhaps at the Wachovia Center, where the ice skateing club seems to have been quite embarassed about their poor showing last year and have taken measures to right the ship as they say. All the best in the future and may the special group of young ballplayer's enjoy their stay in Philadelphia until a club with a bigger payroll sweeps them away.

One last parting comment. Has it ever occured to either of you that if you put a winner onto the field that these frivolous give-a-way days that you keep having, will no longer really be needed. That is why there are Chucky Cheese franchises and carnivals. Tally Ho.

the phillies ownership is an embarassment to this city. they half assed their once in a generation ballpark by putting in the worst location possible, skimping on all architectural elements possible (see fake brick), and most importantly booby trapping it with absurd dimensions.
beyond that, they are too stupid to see that they are the largest unshared baseball market in america. they should have a red sox sized following. they should market this team for all it is worth and then pour a fraction of that money back in and be the powerhouse they should be. this is the greatest sports city in america. people show up and get behind any team that is in contention.
they are more concerned with not upsetting anyone and being pleasent people than winning. for christ sake, fire someone. this team does not have a winning tradion, yet they let everyone who ever worked for the phillies stay around forever. dallas green is still here, john vocuvich was here forever, both amaros, mike arbukle has been around for well over a decade, larry bowa was employed by the club for nearly 30 years, and the list goes on. why? what do these people bring to the table? what is the purpose of such blind loyalty?

Since we're doing valedictories, Harry Kalas, please retire soon. You are and were one of the best in the country, but time waits for no man, and you are not getting any younger. You are starting to slip a little now, not too badly, but a little. Please don't hang around until people are talking behind your back. Anyway, it can't be much fun working with the two dorks you are stuck with. Harry, make next year a victory lap, throw a big party, then tell wheels to kiss your ----.

Mr. Mac, that about nails it. The Phillies and CBP = the Chuck E. Cheese of baseball. The Phillies have diligently studied the minor league model for success - no, not in terms of development and player performance, but in creating a soft huggy distracting carnival atmosphere to lure the folks in.

The 'fake brick' is an especially telling touch, don't you think? It's all about appearances, not actual quality.

The Diamondbacks can't hit, don't pitch all that well, and are proving nothing to me besides the fact that every so often a bad team can massively outperform its real abilities, mostly thanks to luck. Nevertheless, they can still be caught.

As for the wild card/division thing, while our chances are slim, I'm sure you'd admit by now, clout, that our chances in the division are even slimmer.

brio, it is becoming clearer by day that the GM is not the issue. The one constant the last 25 years has been the Giles/Montgomery led ownership group; that would be Claire Betz, Alexander, J. Mahlon and William Buck and John Middleton, the faceless cowards who hide in the background, care only about revenue and profits, and let Giles and Montgomery screw up the baseball operation year after year.

Remember, these were the silent partners that let Giles run a team that had a losing record for 13 of 14 years.

Would owners who really cared about winning and had any backbone allow that to happen?

Wouldn't owners who really cared about winning and who saw the BASEBALL "success" that Giles/Montgomery had brought to the franchise make the necessary changes?

This fan base lets the faceless cowards off the hook. The only way real changes might occur is if the Bucks, Middleton and Betz start to see their names on banners and posters with disparaging comments attached.

@Tray: "Don't pitch all that well."
That's kind of an untenuous argument. They have five relief pitcher with ERAs under 3.30. They have one of the best starters in the Majors. The other four tend to keep them in games. Even though their offense reaks,(reaks!), I would not say that they have just lucked into the division lead. They did indeed pitch their way into it. That does not mean they cannot be caught. But someone has to beat them - which means, basically, getting to their starters before their bullpen puts the lights out.

BTW: Wouldn't it be nice if someone ever said that about the Phillies?

Maybe we need a Betz, Middleton, Buck poster contest, with all the contenders appearing periodically in the stands.

They do have a good bullpen but who are their starters, 2-5? They've actually let up more runs than every team in that division but Colorado. Though maybe that's a somewhat decieving stat, because they don't have the benefit of pitching to their own awful lineup.

The Dbacks can defintely pitch. They have an OPS+ of 112, which is second in the NL to the Padres. Even so, they've been outscored on the year, which a) shows how bad their offense is and b) means that normally, they'd be due to regress. The problem is that with only 20 games left, it'll be hard for them to regress quickly enough. So my guess is that the Phillies will have to go on a nice run to make the playoffs, something like 16-6. Can they do it? It'll be tough with their pitching and they really need to take care of the Marlins today and tomorrow and the 7 against the Nats to have a realistic shot.

I meant ERA+

Line-ups are up.


Rollins 6
Victorino 9
Utley 4
Howard 3
Burrell 7
Rowand 8
Dobbs 5
Coste 2
AA-pitcher du jours 1


who cares, really?

Tray: I agree that the chances for the division are just about gone. I am long on record as saying they will not win the Wild Card. Too many good teams have to lose for that to happen. If there were only 1 or 2 teams battling us for the WC it might be a different story. I do find your excuses for why you've been wrong on the D'backs amusing, though.

I know you all can't get enough of him, but it's really nice not to see Werth's name in that lineup. Good to see Rowand isn't going to miss any time.

In fairness, the Inquirer did a pretty story story recently on the reasons why CBP is a band box. It has nothing to do with the dimensions. It has to do with the local wind patterns, which were blocked by the bowl-shaped Vet but flow freely through CBP, and the heat and humidity in the summer.

P.S. One point worth mentioning with regard to the D'backs: Their stadium is one of the best hitters' parks in baseball. Which means their offense is even worse than it looks and their pitching even better. This suggests that good pitching has more value than good hitting. Anyone ever hear that before?

RSB: On the radio they were saying this is the first time the regular lineup 1 through 8 has been in place since June 5.

I'm not sure Dobbs or Coste should be called regulars but maybe they were just referring to the middle. However, that's what Franzke said anyway.

Chase, by the numbers is MORE of a hitters park than the Zen - but they have not had too much difficulty getting good pitchers.

Ooooo good start for Ennis.

Andy, it's an idea that certainly can't hurt.

Jason, I suggest you post a thread on the topic and we get it circulated on the other Phillies blogs. This could actually be fun and serve a greater purpose.

Let's publicly embarrass the faceless cowards.

woo-hoo everybody h...

Oh, wait. Florida's batting.

I'm not sure I buy the argument that CBP's dimensions aren't the problem. I saw a study on the Hardball Times recently that used Hit Tracker data to eliminate the effect of wind and found that CBP was tied for 6th. Maybe atmospheric effects have a small effect, but there's no doubt: the park is just small.

Btw, here's the study:

If they moved the plate 10 inches to the right, Ennis would be throwing nothing but strikes.

Werth doesn't make that play.

If that first inning doesn't scare you then I don't know what does.

Phil: I believe the dimensions are identical to a number of other stadiums that are not hitters' parks.

Ennis up around 30 pitches, which means it will take a miracle for him to go 3. I also think his K/BB ratio is about 1:1. I think we'll be seeing Mesa, Condrey and Kane Davis again today.

with this lineup the phils should get a bunch of runs today.

we're Phillies Phans; we're not scared of anything our pitchers do.

I should've said strike/ball ratio above. Just cked with gametracker and they say 15 strikes, 13 balls.

Really think they'll bring the Kanester back again today?

I cannot believe how good the Phils are making this awful Marlins' pitching staff look.

clout, Conlin had an article within the last couple of weeks about a website that kept data on park dimensions.

Conlin article here:

Website here:

My faorite quote from the article:

"Prepare to be amazed at the amount of leftfield and rightfield in the Money Pit less than 350 feet to the fence."

The Diamondbacks have yet to win that division, you know. I think I'm long on record as saying that we'd miss the playoffs and win about 86 games, but if we were ever going to have a chance, it was going to be through the wild card - and that's because the wild card winner will finish with fewer wins than the Mets. There are a lot of teams to chase, but if you finished with 89 or 90 wins that wouldn't matter. Of course, we're not about to finish 16-6.

Utley hit a ball hard, it just went right to the 1b. Rollins had a good at bat. Victorino looked overmatched, which is not good against this guy. Apparently Vandenhurl is supposed to be a good pitcher though (or at least has good stuff: We've herad that before). I think he features a serious curveball and a mid-90's fastball. It seems like I heard that he was touching 97-98 earlier in the year, but had little control.

Nice play by Ryno.

Tray, I can buy your hitting argument with the D-Backs, but I don't think that you can say with a straight face that they cannot pitch.

Nice comeback by Ennis there. Perhaps he is settling in. Does anybody ever with this staff? I know I don't.

I said they don't pitch "all that well." They're a good pitching club but not a dominant one, and not one of the best in that division.

Tray, don't tell me the Padres are better? Giants? Rockies? Dodgers? Not a chance.

A pitching "staff", Peavy does not make.

All of those teams except for the Rockies, yeah. I mean, just look at the runs allowed column on the standings. Interestingly, VandenHurk strikes out a little over 9 per 9 - if he had enough innings to qualify, that'd be fifth after Bedard, Peavy, Kazmir, and Santana.

Watching that Ennis at bat was hilarious. There was almost no chance he would even make contact during that AB.

This crowd is so unbelievably flat today. You wouldn't even guess the Phils were still mathematically in the playoff hunt. There is no way the Phils are going to be any benefit from playing at home today except for batting last.

I know you're stats-adverse, so just look at the names. The Giants start Cain, Lowry, Lincecum and Zito. Zito's been bad by his standards this year, but he's still league-average. Dodgers have Penny, Lowe, Billingsley, and a great bullpen. The Padres don't just have Peavy, they have Young, Maddux, Hoffman, Germano's decent, and their bullpen's down but no one in it has an ERA over 3.59 except for the mop-up guy. Arizona has Webb, a guy who's third-to-last in the majors in walks per innings in Davis, a guy who gives up tons of home runs in Livan, Owings, who might be good one day but right now is thoroughly mediocre, and their fifth starter is, um, Edgar Gonzalez.

Tray, I might buy the Giants being equal to the D-backs as far as their rotation goes. (Lincecum, Zito, Caine, Lowry DL, Insert name here). That is a good staff on paper, but Ziton is underperforming, Lowry is hurt, Caine is inconsistent, and Lincecum is a rookie and may get shut down. So if the argument is based on people actually pitching, as opposed to, on paper, the D-Backs are clearly better.

Padres: Peavy, Maddux, Germano, Young: hurt/innefective, Insert name here). As I have said before, Young is finished. It is just a matter of time before they shut him down for the rest of the year. Maddux is old, and was innefective last year at this time of year, as well as the year before. The league has figured out Germano and he has been completely ineffective latery. So that leaves you with Peavy as a good starter, and he just got jacked around to the tune of 6 ER in 5 or 6 innings (It may have been 8 ER, I can't remember). If Peavy doesn't give this team quality starts, I don't see who does, on a consistent basis.

Dodgers: (Penny, Lowe, Billingsley, Loaiza, Wells). Penny seems to be legit, but has faultered in the second half his entire career except for this year. One might ask, at what point does he hit that wall this year? Lowe has been getting hit a lot more lately. Billingsley, although good recently, is a rookie, and is prone to extreme inconsistent streaks. Loaiza is so good he was cut by a team that needed pitching. Wells: see Loaiza. So that leaves Penny and Lowe (Arguably) as legitimate stoppers.

D-Backs (by way of Review): (Webb, Davis, Hernandez, Owings, Insert name here). Webb, possibly the best pitcher in the National League. Davis is consistent, and a lefty. Hernandez is a guy that is always tough down the stretch and can hit. Owings is a rookie, but has nasty stuff. He has dominated at times this year, and could start in the outfield for some teams with the bat.

Rockies: Not going to address them. It is obvious.

Tray: Hoffman doesn't start and never has.

Clout: which parks have idential dimensions and aren't hitters parks?

Again, when comparing pitching please adjust for park factors. The Padres play in the most extreme pitcher's park in baseball, the Giants in the second most extreme. Dodger Stadium is also a pitcher's park. Arizona is a hitter's park. Adjusting for stadium, the D'backs pitchers are at least the equal of those other teams.

AWH: I do remember that and that's a good point. It's not just distance to the fence but how much of the fence is at that distance. But the Inquirer article was pretty convincing on the wind and atmospheric conditions.

Dear Mr Montgomery and Mr Giles,

Is there any chance that you might be interested in selling your ball club? I know a highly motivated gentleman who might be thinking of purchasing a team. He used to be president of a team in the NBA, was let go because he wanted to can some inept people who under performed their duties and has been itching to turn another sorry ass team into a winner. He believes in starting from the top and fielding a winner. Please get back to me ASAP. Many feel it is a worthwhile idea.

Pat Croce



Que Davethom:

Uh oh, Gillick's not gonna like that. I think Coste just earned himself a spot on the bench for the next week.

Cue, oops, not spanish, there.

Phil: Oakland, for one.

prediction - Ennis is exhausted from beating out that hit, craps the bed next inning and gives all these runs back. any takers?

Dbacks 113
Padres 112
Giants 109
Rockies 107

Since the 1st inning, Ennis strike/ball ratio has gone from 1:1 to almost 2:1. Last 3 IP he's thrown 31 strikes, 18 balls.

I guess I jinxed him.

Well I'm glad that Owings could start for some teams in the outfield with the bat. He's not very good. Nor is their rotation. Nice bullpen though.

Anyway, I might've left Ennis in. I mean who wants to see 5 innings of this bullpen?

Clout: Then how do you explain the difference in park factors in the hardball times study? That takes atmospheric effects out of the equation and with the exception of CF, CBP is smaller. I concede that the posted dimensions are almost identical, I'm just skeptical that those are the actual dimensions.

Ennis didn't look bad after the first. Unless Hamels comes back which I highly doubt, I think we'll see him start again this year.

Well, the evidence says otherwise Tray.

OK, this guy was claimed off waivers from Tampa Bay, we need to score more runs here.

Perhaps Pat Gillick can explain to fans how he makes his scouting decisions, and how, HOW in the world he judged Rod Barajas to be a superior player to Coste.

Even on the stolen base base, which Oliva had a huge jump on Ennis, he damn near created a play at second when he made that throw from his knees.

Gillick has some serious self-examination to do at the end of the season.

So, Gillicks scouting is bad based on one player? What about Werth, Dobbs? I mean, even Alfonseca has been better than most expected. Yeah, bad lately, but overall he has been, ok, based on what he was last year. I've said it once, I'll say it again, does he have to bad 100%? I'm not even a fan of Gillick, but some of this is ridiculous.

Should be "bat .1000"

The evidence?? Maybe the way you twist the evidence says otherwise. For instance, Owings "is a rookie but has nasty stuff. He has dominated at times this year." Billingsley has way better numbers, but of him you write "although good recently, he is a rookie, and is prone to extreme inconsistent streaks." Maddux is just "old" but Hernandez is "a guy that is always tough down the stretch." Well which one has given up 29 home runs this year and which one has given up 12? Which one has the 4.79 ERA? Arguing with you is like talking to a 9/11 conspiracy theorist.

parker, the Coste error hurt the team in more than one way. The Barajas money could havve been used on RP. Even small mistakes have a way of compounding.

Besides, you conveniently mention Werth and Dobbs, but no mention of Garcia, Eaton, Matt Smith...should I go on.

On balance, Gillick's grade for this year is a D+ at best.

Remember, the core of this team - the reason they even have a winning record - Howard, Burrell, Utley, Rollins, Myers, Hamels, Madson, Victorino - were all here before Gillick arrived.

Incidently, Chooch and Coste are also Ed Wade era acquisitions.

Besides, parker, you needn't defend Seattle Stew, Alden will show up sooner or later to do that.

Well, if homeruns were everything, then that might be conclusive, Tray. How about, having the best record in the division, and having the worst hitting team in the National League, while playing in a hitters park? Somebody is pitching good. So it's just the bullpen right? How many of those innings have been pitched by them? My guess is not near as many.

Then why didn't Wade bring up Coste? It occurs to me that Gillick is in fact the only GM that ever gave Coste a chance. Coste should love Gillick.

Oh okay, so we ignore the fact that Maddux's ERA is over a run lower than Hernandez's, that Maddux has walked 21 all year to Livan's 69, that opposing batters are batting .300 off Livan and .275 off of Maddux, and that Livan has given up more homers than anyone in the National League but Woody Williams, because Livan's team has the better record. That makes so much sense.

I still don't buy the "Barajas' money could've been spent elsewhere" line. The Phils mgnt probably woudn't have said "hey, there's 3mil more money now, lets throw it around". They'll keep it.

AWH: Incedentally, Gillick has been here two years, so not many of his minor league acquisitions have had enough time to make it to the majors and make an impact. And before you say that he has not drafted any talent into the organization, please tell me your basis for evaluation of that talent. Some people have jobs in which they evaluate baseball talent, and that is all they do. They make mistakes. What makes you so dead on with the evaluations? What makes you so sure that you can see the future?

So, Tray and Parker, is this debate about which team's pitching is better, or which one we should root for so we can catch the other? Because if it's the latter, good luck with that.

If it's the former, Parker, you should know that your "old" Mr. Maddux is currently ranked among the top 30 pitchers in baseball by Value Over Replacement Player. So your opinion seems contradicted by at least one significant fact.

Oh and do you know why Wade never called up Coste? Coste entered our system in 2005, and that season he played catcher all of 9 games. I mean, think just a little before you talk.

Quite a bit of work for Victorino today.

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EST. 2005

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