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Tuesday, September 18, 2007

Comments

I want to repost this Jason comment from the last thread because it's worthy of discussion:

"The fact that certain pitchers in the bullpen are allowed to exist to waste our time and the rest of the team's time should tell you all you need to know about management. They don't care. How on earth can a guy like Mesa, or any number of others, continue to have jobs? Last bullpen acquisition was Mateo, yet to appear. Before that, Romero. That was months ago. In the meantime, it keeps getting worse. And nothing is done about it.

If I'm Rowand or the other leaders on the team, now would be the time to call Pat Gillick to task on this. How in the hell can he possibly get off scott free for this mess?

Why would Rowand ever want to sign back here?"

If I'm a position player on this team I have to ask the same question. We are playing our hearts out and this chance may not come around again. And yet our GM makes no move to upgrade a bullpen that, as Sam Donnellon wrote in today's Daily News, "would make Camden Riversharks hitters drool."

It is an absolute slap in the face of the position players and the fans. If nothing is done about this bullpen in the final days, it will destroy this team in the end, whether by Myers-Romero-Gordon going down by overuse or by the pitiful efforts of the human garbage that Manuel is forced to use when those 3 aren't available. And Gillick should never be forgiven for this.


On the Phillies' web site, they list pitchers for four of the next five games, but not the Thursday game in Washington. This is Lohse's spot. Does anyone have any insight about this situation?

Mesa's line score from last night looks harmless. He faces four batters, opening with a double, followed by a ground out, sac fly, and another ground out giving up a run to the guy who hit the double. What doesn't show up in his line score is that the bases were loaded when he came in and they all scored! What a load! Mesa should be glued to his seat in the bullpen or released.

Clout, Couldn't agree with you more. The position players have basically played their hearts out all year and done a great job. Often they have to come back from a 4 or 5 run deficit before the game has hardly gotten underway. No lead is ever safe. If the bats have a down day, it's a certain loss. They never have the pitching pick them up with a 2-1, 3-2 win. This is totally demoralizing and sooner or later the team is going to implode.

I fear the whole nucleus will drift away over time if they don't fix this problem. Utley is locked in I suppose, but Rowand, Howard, Rollins - why would they ever want to stay around for the long haul?

My nomination for funniest comment of the year on Beerleaguer is from clout from the last thread: "I picture Mateo inside a trunk in the clubhouse banging the top to get out. Gillick sneaks in and places a padlock on the trunk, then hauls it to a dumpster while giving the high sign to Mesa." Great stuff!

Utley, Howard, Rollins, Rowand, Burrell etc. are all human, so, I have to believe they look at the pitchers with some disdain. They'd probably never admit it, but they just have to, it would be only natural.

Living the midwest, I got the game on the Cardinals feed. The Cards announcers were shocked that Myers wasn't available last night, saying that at this time of year in a pennant race, it shouldn't matter how much work a reliever had the previous day, previous series, etc.

As much as I bash Cholly on a regular basis, I think he did the right thing. I think he learned from overusing Myers earlier in the year and he was probably right to give him the night off, even in a 2 run game with the tying run on base. It's a war, not a battle. Hopefully, tonight we'll be happy that he saved those bullets. I'm sure I'll continue to bash Cholly as we wind this season down, but it's only fair to give him credit where credit is due.

Last night's game and the comeback of the Cards can be attributed to only one man - Pat Gillick.

Last night's game was punishing, but it all came out in the wash.

There's no reason to believe that ANY of those stiffs who pitched last night will see significant time in the final week of the season, and certainly not in the post-season.

I'm perplexed as to why Mateo isn't with the big club. But other than him, what moves should be made? I'm all for stapling Mesa's uni-pants to the bullpen bench, but the waiver wire or the organization isn't exactly brimming with better alternatives.

The best alternative is to stick with Geary (gasp), Romero, Gordon, and Myers in close ones...and hope the bats continue to tear the cover off the ball.

Willard Preacher -- I'd be a lot more comfortable with the decision to hold out Myers last night if it weren't the result of pitching him with a 4-run lead in the 9th on Sunday against the Mets. Having Brett unavailable to bail him out last night was a hole Cholly dug himself.

Josh: That is certainly true, but you can understand Cholly's thinking: Do I bring in Myers with a 4-run lead and beat the Mets or do I trust this human garbage bullpen to hold a 4 run lead so I can have Myers ready for the Cards?

But other than him, what moves should be made?

Josh Towers and Kyle Farnsworth have both cleared waivers and should be available for very little (Towers) or basically nothing (Farnsworth). sure, neither one is that great, but they're a hell of a lot better than Mesa. (there's also Jose Contreras, who has pitched in relief a couple times this year, but is making $10M next year.)

I was feeling fine last night - up 11-0, then even 12-3. Then the score started getting closer and I started getting sick. Headache, sick feeling in my stomach, and sweating actually sweating until the final out. At that point I was fine. The pennant race may be slowly killing me...and I'm 25.

Scores like 12-3 are the reason why rosters expand in September. Great chance to give young players some action. I don't know how it happened, but this year the Phillies have decided to fill their expanded roster with quad-A rubbish.

They pay the price in two ways. Not only are 12-3 leads insecure in the hands of burnout veteran middle relief, their young pitchers with talent, guys like Happ and Bisenius, who would do a better job than Mesa, miss out on gaining some late-season experience.

Re-posted:

Sophist, it is funny that you said that about the Cards playing with a bunch of Memphis Redbirds players. The Cardinals fans were right. I was at the last Phillies series in St. Louis (June 22-24). I had been to a Memphis Redbirds game about 3 weeks earlier. During the 3 game series, 5 players played for the Cardinals that I had seen play 3 weeks earlier in Memphis. With Ankiel being up, that makes at least 6 that were playing in Memphis.

Also of note: At the game I saw in Memphis, James Loney and Matt Kemp were in the lineup for the Las Vegas 51's.

So while the Cardinals fans are indeed right, it is hardly something new that they should still be complaining about. It has been that way since late June.

Lake Fred: If you watched the game last night, I think you would have a different opinion of what Mesa did. IMO, the damage that resulted with Mesa pitching to Pujols with the bases loaded and no outs was about the least amount of possible damage possible. I'm conceding that Pujols gets a hit off Mesa there. The ultimate problem in the inning was Condrey's failure to get one out in an 11-2 game. That is where the blame lies. I think Mesa could have at least not allowed one of the first two batters to reach there. It was the bottom of the order, pretty much AAA players batting. Oh, wait, Condrey is AAA material. It all makes more sense.

Ok, moving on from last night's disaster. Hamels is supposed to throw about 75-80 pitches tonight. Let's say that gets us to 4-2 going into the bottom of the 6th. Who pitches from there? Geary, Romero, Gordon, Myers? Or will Charlie refuse to leave Romero in for more than one batter? Discuss

Scary as hell to think that the Phils playoff hopes live and die hinging on the performances of career-AAA pitching (the likes of Kane Davis and Condrey). If I'm Utley, Rollins, etc. that is EXACTLY why I'd think about leaving town if management can't commit to improvements.

I wonder what the relationships are like between the position players and the pitching staff (especially the relievers). Can't be too comfortable.

"Scores like 12-3 are the reason why rosters expand in September. Great chance to give young players some action. I don't know how it happened, but this year the Phillies have decided to fill their expanded roster with quad-A rubbish.

They pay the price in two ways. Not only are 12-3 leads insecure in the hands of burnout veteran middle relief, their young pitchers with talent, guys like Happ and Bisenius, who would do a better job than Mesa, miss out on gaining some late-season experience."

Couldn't agree more. Let's say the game does get tied and goes to extra innings last night. All Charlie had left was Durbin and Ennis. How does a playoff-hopeful team, in the middle of September, have only 2 relief pitchers left after 9 innings? Yes, I know it was a crazy game. But, this isn't June. You basically have unlimited rosters. To only have 2 available pitchers left is ridiculous. Again, that isn't Charlie's fault. You can only pitch who you have available.

About Happ and Bisenius.... who knows, they may not be any better than what the team has now. But, the Phils obviously liked Bisenius enough to keep on the opening day roster to start the season. He had a injury this year and didn't pitch as well because of that. But, he finished the season healthy and is supposed to pitch in winter ball (I believe). And, after a slow start, with an injury, Happ finished up the season strong, with numerous quality starts and was downright dominant in many appearances. How can either one not at least be on the roster now?

"I wonder what the relationships are like between the position players and the pitching staff (especially the relievers). Can't be too comfortable"

Did you see Rollins reaction when Pujols cleared the bases last night?

He snapped the ball back into the infield. He was pissed. No "reading between the lines" was needed with that one.

Denny, I'm sorry I missed that. I wonder what he said to them in the clubhouse after the game.

A win is a win. I'm not going to get too worked up about how it happened. The offense did enough to keep us from using Romero, Gordon or Myers. They needed a day off and they got it. Sometimes, it's up to the bats to get the job done and they did it this time. We know the rest of the bullpen sucks. Yesterday I suggested Romero, Gordon and Myers can have a day off the next time we have a 7 run lead. I'd like to amend that... they can have a day off only when we amass a 10 run lead.

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