Beerleaguer takes upper management, 'pen to task

The Phillies defeated the Cardinals 13-11 yesterday, but all is not hunky-dory in the bullpen, where burnouts like Jose Mesa and Clay Condrey once again turned a commanding lead into a sticky situation.

The fact that certain pitchers are allowed to exist to waste our time and the rest of the team's time should tell you all you need to know about Phillies management. How is it that junk like Jose Mesa, or any number of others, continue to have jobs? The team’s last bullpen acquisition was Julio Mateo, yet to appear, even though his career to this point indicates he’d be no worse than their third-best reliever. Before that, they signed J.C. Romero. That was months ago. In the meantime, it keeps getting worse. And nothing is done about it. Why? Winning is obviously secondary.

What else could it be? If I'm Aaron Rowand, who homered twice yesterday and made a game-saving catch in the 8th inning, or any of the other leaders on the team, players who’ve busted their humps all season and are still short, now would be the time to call general manager Pat Gillick to task. At the very least, they should start billing the front office for frequent on-the-mound couseling sessions, pictured above. Why would a guy like Rowand ever want sign back here, knowing the team doesn’t do all that it takes to win? How in the name of all that is holy can Gillick get off scott free for the bullpen? It’s the single biggest reason why they’re not on top, as everyone predicted, last October. If the middle relief manages to bridge the gap to Brett Myers, it’s by accident. The clouds open and temporarily blind the hitter, or some other deus ex machina.

Scores like 12-3 are the reason why rosters expand in September. Great chance to give young players some action. For some reason, the Phillies filled the expanded roster with quad-A rubbish. They pay the price in two ways. Not only are 12-3 leads insecure in the hands of burnout veteran middle relief, their young pitchers with talent, guys like J.A. Happ, Josh Outman and Joe Bisenius, who would do a better job than Mesa, miss out on gaining some late-season experience. Revisiting the original question: How is it that junk like Jose Mesa, or any number of others, continue to have jobs? Could it be they'd rather limit service time of young players than make the post-season? Nah.

Twelve to go. A game and a half out of the Wild Card, and 2 1-2 behind the stumbling Mets. A miracle, considering the calamities of upper management.

Comments

[denny b.]

Agree 100%.

Management doesn't care. They sold 3 million tickets and have a nice playpen to make money. Winning is not a priority. If it was, a few of their young pitching prospects, that might actually be able to pitch, would be up and career minor leaguers and old guys who are way, way past their prime (if they even had a prime) wouldn't be pitching in critical September games. Charlie is not a great manager, we all would probably agree to that. But, its not fair what he has had to put up with this year. You can't fairly blame him for this team possibly coming up short.

This team should be a World Series team this year. The National League was/is up for grabs and, even with one of the worst bullpens in team history, and a couple of starters that should have been benched weeks ago (yet continue to get starts), this team is just 3 games from having the best record in the league.

Put just an average bullpen together, and find just 1 more starter that could give you a quality start every-now-and-then, and this team would be running away with the NL East and the favorite for the WS.

Its sad.

[HitMan]

I heard the Saint Louis announcers say last night that the Phillies' run production is the fourth best in major league history. I have no idea of whether that is true, but if it is and they fail to make the playoffs, then firing Gillick won't be enough. Criminal prosecution would be more like it. It is unimaginable that upper management has so little interest in making the playoffs that they will not, at the least, bring up Mateo and swing a deal for a decent middle reliever. Or failing to do that, they could vastly improve the bullpen by giving Mesa and Alfonseca an outright release.

[J. Weitzel]

The late innings overshadowed another fine outing by Kyle Kendrick, who's making a habit of getting through the first few innings unscathed. The kid can definitely pitch. What I like most is he knows exactly who he is and how to win with his abilities. Double-digit groundouts again, including that key twin-killing in the 5th. He and Burrell's second half are the best stories of 07.

[king myno]

The most offensive thing I can find in this whole situation, besides every time Mesa steps to the mound, is that no media member has seemingly taken Gillick to task for acquiring Mateo and then seemingly stashing him away. Not to sound all high-and-mighty and ethical, but I'm about to graduate Boston U with a degree in journalism, and I can't fathom what my first question would be if I ever had the "pleasure" of interviewing Pat Gillick. I don't care what kind of BS story he spins to cover it up, at least he would know that people are publicly talking about it. I usually respect Philadelphia journalists, but in this situation, I do not.

[king myno]

Hahaha well, I ruined my journalistic integrity with those dual seemingly's, didn't I?

Also, "can't fathom what else", not "what". Jeez.

[denny b.]

"We only had Durbin left in the 'pen," Manuel said, then cackled, "I'll see if we can get on the phone, get some more call-ups for tomorrow."

Who thinks Charlie is only half-joking. He probably is asking for help from the FO, and is not getting it.

[denny b.]

"People just throwing questions at me, left and right. I went to the mound once and the look I got from Jimmy and Chase," he said. "I mean, 'What is going on here?

I can only imagine what guys like Jimmy and Chase, who are having, likely, the best seasons for a double play combination in Major League history, are thinking watching this. Probably about the same way most of the fans here feel. The front office has failed us.

[loctastic]

Holy hell their bullpen is terrible. I mean, wow. God damn.

I recognize that Gillick may not have had any useful free agent options. But I'm not understanding why we don't have every minor league pitcher we have who can throw a strike on the roster. I mean, I know that's 3 guys. But those 3 guys are better than Mesa/Condrey/Davis.

Jose Mesa! Oh my GOD!

[loctastic]

On a positive note, I want a Kyle Kendrick jersey. Can someone put in a good word to Santa for me? Thanks.

[Sophist]

parker - re: the Memphis Redbirds players as an unjustified excuse. I agree. I think the whole year, and the past two weeks in particular, has been tough on this Cardinals team. Obviously. The fans are certainly in excuse mode, trying to figure out why their beloved team isn't getting it done. Clearly, the team has no hitters - except Pujols - and no pitching - except Isring and Wainwright. But for fans that love every player on the team, maybe even Miles, they want it to be something else: Injuries, the Memphis Redbirds. But the truth is, as you point out in regard to AAA players, every team, even some successful ones, has injuries, bullpen problems, and AAA players getting time.

The good news for the Phils is that our offense gets those numbers on a consistent basis, and our bullpen problems aren't widespread - they aren't consistently bad - and we have a few more good starters than a team like the Cards. The Cards can't, and shouldn't, score 11 every night, and their pen is what we saw last night. They were resting all their best after one of the most important head-to-head series of the year. This team is depleted, and the Phils could easily score double digits every night.

[loctastic]

Put just an average bullpen together, and find just 1 more starter that could give you a quality start every-now-and-then, and this team would be running away with the NL East and the favorite for the WS.

I can't really complain about the rotation. They at least tried to improve it in the off-season, and again with Lohse at the deadline.

[Sophist]

Make that "they *weren't* resting all their *best relief pitchers*.

[curt]

Everyone needs to ask management the same question every day: Where's Mateo?

Instant BP upgrade.

[AWH]

Jason, great post.

However, I must take you to task for your treating management on this team with kid gloves.

You should have much more critical, and not in a nice way. Yes, I know you have guys like me and clout here to constantly rip Giles, Montgomery, Gillick, Amaro and Co. And yes, the nickname I have for them are not nice, but, why should we be?

We have lived through 20 YEARS of Phillies piching that has been at the bottom half of the league for virtually the entire time. That's unacceptable for a team in the 5th LARGEST MARKET.

Jason, they're going to whine about the injuries - trust me it's coming.

You mention the young arms in the minors, but there's more at work here.

They played games with Borowski and tried to get him on the cheap, made a half-hearted effort to sign Percival who has a 2.06 ERA.....................need I go on.

Your question as to why Aaron rowand would re-sign here needs to be extended to Ryan Howard and others. Why would he sign a long-term deal with an organization that's not committed to winning? Why would Cole Hamels? Why would Brett Myers in when his 3 yr deal is up and he won't yet be 30 yrs old? Why would any free agent or player currently on the roster, who may be able to walk anytime soon?

I know you need to maintain some sort of decorum in your posts. BUT, you were far too nich to this incompetent group of owner/managers.

[Bridoc10]

To paraphrase Mike Schmidt, "The thrill of victory and the agony of reading about it the next day."

Look...last night was embarrassing. But let's remember that Cholly's top FOUR relievers were not available. He pitched the stiffs against a pretty solid lineup...and they were lit up. Clay Condrey sucks. Jose Mesa is hideous. But there is a definite school of thought at work here in using veteran players. Even a casual fan can see that Mesa is washed up, but Happ and Bisenius have never performed in these situations. At least Mesa has.

I'm NOT defending ever using him again, mind you. I'm just trying to keep a little perspective in this conversation. The Phils won the game!

[Jon]

Mesa should have been released months ago! Hell, he should not have even been persued. Gillick and Amaro should have gotten off their collective asses and made some kind of trade. Even when Mesa's ERA was lower, he was still getting hit hard. It was only a matter of time before he blew up. And man, has he ever blown up...

I'd bring up Mateo right now. Take the damn PR hit and get over with it! At least the team is on the road right now.

[Jon]

Man, that was supposed to read "get it over with."

Damn bullpen...

[from the district]

I also cannot fathom the absence of Mateo or Bisenius.

I do object to the notion that the failure of the bullpen has anything to do with the perceived greed of the ownership. There is really no correlation. Its not like they are paying Mesa or Condrey anything. Not sure what they are paying Alfonseca, but since he was useful earlier in the season, I'm not sure if I would dump him yet, I just wish he was way farther down in the depth chart.

This doesn't have anything to do with "not caring about winning" I don't buy that these guys don't want to win. Furthermore, there is no reason why a team with this salary shouldn't be able to win. This is the fault of incompetent general managing/managing.

Anybody want to venture a guess as to how much of a hand Manuel has in keeping Mesa around?

At this point aren't you taking more of a PR hit without bringing Mateo up?

I don't believe that there are many options out there at this point, but doing nothing at this point is mind boggling.

That being said, I don't think that the players are feeling as badly about that win as many posters here. Bottom line is that they won and they have Cole going tonight with Romero, Myers and maybe Gordon available. The Phillies won, and though they are still in must win mode, the Mets are now too. The core of this team, I believe, is much more resiliant than to loose sight of the fact that they won yesterday.

[Joe in Haddonfield]

What's worse?

a) the fan/media backlash from calling up an alleged wife beater or

b) the fan/media backlash from falling short while Mesa/Alfonseca and the rest of the clowns packed in the bullpen car throw away an amazing offensive season

Get every pitcher in the system at AA or above with an batting-average-against that's got a WHIP near 1.00 and march them out there.

My fear is that it will be too little, too late and SD has pitching. That trumps all.

[Bridoc10]

2.5 out of the division with 12 games to play, and 1.5 out of the wild card in a two horse race, and it's too little/too late?

I don't get it. Last night was an aberration.

I want Mateo, too. I wouldn't mind Farnsworth or Towers. Hell, I would have preferred Durbin last night to Mesa or Davis. But the bottom line is another win for the good guys, and another game up on the Mets.

[from the district]

I think people are also overreacting over the attractiveness of this organization to players in comparison with others. The players will want to sign if they show them the money and because there are other good players on the team (Rollins and Utley are going to be here for a while). There are more teams worse than the Phillies than better than the Phillies. Why would they want to sign with those teams?

And when did it become such a ubiquitous opinion that we want to resign Aaron Rowand?

[D. Patrone]

I've been bashing Gillick and the lacks of moves he's made for 2 years now. Don't tell me you phans are phinally starting to see it? Borowski, Percival, Aubrey Huff ... they all should have been here.

And more players will leave than will come in. Rowand and Taguchi will walk. You know what the OF will be next year? Burrell, Vic, and Bourn. Now power other than Burrell. When Burrell leves after next season, no power at all.

Everyone has their opinion. Mine is Burrell should be extended at a lower number for 3 years and Rowand should be re-signed RIGHT NOW! Get that done. Then upgrade 3B and take care of the pitching in the off-season. Won't happen though. CHEAP! CHEAP! CHEAP! They want a payroll closer the 80 million than 100 for next year. This team is gonna score 900 runs this year and miss the playoffs. AGAIN! Mark me words. J~ posters are right. Stop using tact and really give it to the owners and Gillick. They deserve it.

[from the district]

it boggles my mind, with all the things we have to complain about concerning the management of this team that we need to resort to complaining about things that they haven't even done yet.

[Bridoc10]

FTD.

I fear you and I are in the minority on this site.

[Ben Keeler]

I have bashed Gillick as much as anyone, but I bet he traded for Mateo for this year and upper mgt. is not letting him pitch. Why else would Gillick have traded for him if they didnt plan to use him? I question alot of his moves, but Gillick obviosuly wants to win - I bet he would put Mateo on the roster in a second if he was allowed.

lets go nats, pirates, and giants!

[Alby]

Aubrey Huff? Don't we have basically the same kind of player in Jayson Werth, except WErth is younger, faster and has a better arm? Granted, it might be just a hot spell, but his OPS is nearly 100 points higher than Huff's.

Otherwise, I agree with your rant.

[ae]

AUBREY HUFF???

[Andy]

@ftd:
The evidence of the lack of desire to win by ownership/upper management, is most clear in the drafting and failure to sign of Brandon Workman this year.

The organizational pitching has been weak for years. It's why the Phils are calling up mudders like Ennis and Davis and have to call up people like Durbin to start: there's no one else left.

With the third round pick, a possible prospect RHP was chosen. Those choosing him knew ahead of time that he had received a full scholarship to Texas. They also had a very clear idea of what kind of money it would take to sign him. He projected as a lower pick - 5th? 6th? round - but they chose him in the third, presumably to make him fit the slot. But then they did not offer him what they knew it would take. They failed to get it done.

My main complaint is about the wasted draft pick. Yes, there will be a compensation pick between the third and fourth rounds next year - but the Phils lost a year in getting a third round pick signed. Now every time we look back at people drafted after the third who could have been picked we'll be wondering.

The question is: why didn't it get done? If it is not about money vs. desire to win, then what is it about? In so many areas, with the orgnaization, this question keeps popping up - free agents, drafting, scouting, development - has the upper management of the organization really shown a desire to win equivalen to that of its very ambitious and talented foot soldiers?

I think not.

[parker]

I am really confused, Mesa is getting lambasted here today, when Condrey was the one who put them in the horrible situation to start with.

Lets not forget that Rollins also comitted an error in that inning that would have resulted in an easy double play.

I'm not defending Condrey in any way, he was horrible, but anyone who says that Rollins was mad at the pitchers should review the game. If not for his boot, it would have been 2 out, no one on base.

THis still goes to my point about Mesa last night, he gave up one hit to the best hitter in the league. Kind of hard to complain about that. Condrey on the other hand gave up 3 to a buch of AAA players. Big difference in my book.

[from the district]

d. patrone, aubrey huff would not have been a very good signing. and of course taguchi is going to walk, we already have a second baseman. thirdly I wouldn't endorse signing Rowand unless its because we have gotten some good pitching for Victorino or Bourne. otherwise the money is better spent on pitching because I don't believe Rowand is going to be able to replicate the kind of year he is having offensively, and he has already lost half a step in center. Do you want to be paying him 15 million a four years from now? That maybe what it takes.

[Andy]

@ftd
OTOH I completely agree with your assessment of Rowand versus pitching. Even the loss of Rowand would leave the Phils on top of the NL in scoring runs (particularly if Howard takes off-season conditioning more seriously). Meanwhile:

It's. All. About. The. Pitching.

FA money needs to go to pitching.
Trades need to acquire pitching.
Every effort needs to be spent on (guess what) pitching.

[BENTZ]

Well, Howard won't win the MVP so that should help cut down on the off-season banquet circuit.

[D. Patrone]

The District~

You're right, it make take more than what the Phils are willing to pay to keep Rowand. That may be a gamble I might be willing to take. They won't though. That's my point. We're going to have an OF with plenty of speed but very little pop.

As far a Huff is concerned, I would have taken a shot on him because I believe he could also play 3B. Werth is a nice player and I like him. But I am not thrilled with an OF of Burrell, Vic, Bourn/Werth offensively that's all. There should be power bats at all for corners and behind the plate. I like Ruiz. With Rowand, at least you have power at 2/3 outfield positions. IF Rowand is brought back then Vic or Bourn may be able to bring something of value in return. If not, then there's the OF for next year. Like I said, everyone has opinion. One thing everyone can agree on though is that if Gillick had done his job, we'd be in first place,heading to the playoffs and wouldn't be talking about this right now.

[CJ]

A win is a win. I'm not going to get too worked up about how it happened. The offense did enough to keep us from using Romero, Gordon or Myers. They needed a day off and they got it. Sometimes, it's up to the bats to get the job done and they did it this time. We know the rest of the bullpen sucks. Yesterday I suggested Romero, Gordon and Myers can have a day off the next time we have a 7 run lead. I'd like to amend that... they can have a day off only when we amass a 10 run lead.

[BENTZ]

True in a way about the corners, but you have to remember that the Phillies have extraordinary power up the middle with Rollins and Utley - especially Utley for his position. So you can afford to lose a little elsewhere.

[from the district]

d. patrone -
your are right about the Gillick point.

agree to disagree on Rowand, and time will tell who is right.

but you can't just assume that not signing rowand = would have wanted to but was too cheap. That disregards the valid opinion of a lot of people that Rowand will not be worth what it will take to sign him.

I have often voiced my displeasure at the opinion that we need power in the outfield and third because those are power positions. That view takes away the most distinct advantage we have - that we get 45-55 home runs and 200 rbi's from middle infield positions. That means we can afford to put speed and defense in traditional power positions, thus saving us money and giving us an ability to be more discriminate when choosing players. The Phillies are one of a few teams who could afford to field an outfield containing both vic and bourne. Its not like those two players aren't valuable, they are just less valuble at their positions. But that is to our advantage!

[RSB]

That was plenty righteousness from Jason, AWH. Just because he isn't parroting your tired posts, repeated and re-worded in a hundred different ways throughout the season, doesn't mean he isn't sufficiently taking management to task here.

Gillick & co. obviously don't believe young pitchers are capable of making contributions in the heat of a playoff race. Which explains perfectly why Fabio Castro and Francisco Rosario were on the mound in the ninth inning yesterday, the Phillies virtually begging to be handed perhaps the worst loss in anyone's memory.

This isn't just a matter of ranting bloggers who don't know the real workings of baseball personnel. This is manifest and rampant incompetence, as deep and plain as the cavernous bags under Gillick's eyes.

[RSB]

That was plenty righteousness from Jason, AWH. Just because he isn't parroting your tired posts, repeated and re-worded in a hundred different ways throughout the season, doesn't mean he isn't sufficiently taking management to task here.

Gillick & co. obviously don't believe young pitchers are capable of making contributions in the heat of a playoff race. Which explains perfectly why Fabio Castro and Francisco Rosario were on the mound in the ninth inning yesterday, the Phillies virtually begging to be handed perhaps the worst loss in anyone's memory.

This isn't just a matter of ranting bloggers who don't know the real workings of baseball personnel. This is manifest and rampant incompetence, as deep and plain as the cavernous bags under Gillick's eyes.

[parker]

Joe in Haddon: I don't know if you have read the running debate about San Diego's pitching (Honestly I'm not even suggesting that you should), but it is overrated.

Tray, good thing you didn't take the bet, San Diego's "Murderer's Row" put up a total of 3 runs on Van Benschoten. Obviously not a complete measure of futility, but certainly tilting the scales in its favor. About the only thing that is more futile than the San Diego offense, sadly, is the Pirates' offense. They were hot for a month and then they realized who that they weren't facing the Phillies or Mets bullpen and became severely depressed. At least that is my theory.

[Jon]

From Paul Hagen's latest article:

http://www.philly.com/dailynews/sports/
20070918_Phils_could_have_schedule_advantage.html

Amaro update

The Astros are expected to make a decision on their next general manager by the end of the week and there continue to be signs that Phillies assistant GM Ruben Amaro Jr. is a leading contender to replace Tim Purpura.

YES!

[J. Weitzel]

Presenting your next Phillies GM: Mike Arbuckle. And as many of you know, I'm a closet Arbuckle supporter.

[AWH]

RSB, my posts may be tired from time to time, but where Phillies management is concerned, I am never wrong.

P.S. It is nice, however, to see you "parroting" my tired posts about "incompetence".

[AWH]

Actually, Jason, I'm not an Arbuckle supporter.

It was he and his staff who first drafted Adam Eaton, and, IMO, it was their erroneous evaluation of Eaton that led to Gillick signing him.

I'll give credit to Arbuckle for the position players on the team. Rollins, Utley, Howard, Burrell, et.al. - they are all homegrown.

However, if pitching is what wins championships, I see nothing in Arbuckle's track record of evaluating, drafting and developing pitchers that gets me excited about what he'll bring to the table.

Just look at the performance of the staff at the MLB level. Arbuckle's "talent stream", or lack thereof, is partly responsible for it.

[Malcolm]

king myno: What's your name?!

[attytood will]

LOL, imagine what Jason and everyone would be saying today if they'd LOST! The Phillies -- "winning angry!"

[Jack]

Patrone- I agree. We should resign Rowand, re-sign Iguchi to be a utility infielder, we should upgrade at 3B by signing A-Rod when he opts out of his contract with the Yanks, and then focus on the pitching, trading Carrasco, Bourn, Costanzo, Golson, and Ruben Amaro III for Johan Santana, and then getting Clemens out of retirement to pitch for US this year. Finally, we might have a team that can compete, if only this management would get their heads out of their asses and make these easy moves. Oh, and I forgot trading Victorino for Aubrey Huff, because he has some power at a corner position, where you it's written into law that you need power. It's like me and Patrone are the only people who read the rulebooks around here.

[Willard Preacher]

"Bottom line is that they won and they have Cole going tonight with Romero, Myers and maybe Gordon available."

You know things are bad when Gordon, in his current state, is a STRENGTH in your bullpen.

"But there is a definite school of thought at work here in using veteran players. Even a casual fan can see that Mesa is washed up, but Happ and Bisenius have never performed in these situations. At least Mesa has."

So, when a 'washed up' bullpen gives up 11 runs in the late innings, its better than guys who haven't been in a pennant race doing it? I guess I learned something new today.

[Malcolm]

Adendum to king myno: I figured it out by looking at your page. I've seen your name before, but I forget if you wrote for the Freep or not. I graduated in '06, but not in JO, instead, Film & TV.

[ae]

You know things are bad when Gordon, in his current state, is a STRENGTH in your bullpen.

actually, his last five appearances, since that meltdown against Atlanta, have been very good. 5 innings, 3 hits, 7 K, 0 BB. and he stranded both of the runners he inherited.

[J. Weitzel]

Mine wouldn't be the strongest endorsement for Arbuckle, but call it a hunch that given free rein he would do okay.

[Bedrosian's Beard]

The problem is, I don't see the GM getting "Free rein" with this team. Ownership has to sell.

[control13]

I think the key phrase here is "given free reign"

Does Gillick have free reign? It seems not. I'm kind of perplexed as to why he took the job to begin with, unless he's OK with less than "free reign", within budget constraints.

[control13]

BB:

Agreed, but seemingly not going to happen in the forseeable future.

[RSB]

Arbuckle? Yeah, based on the job he's done with the farm system, that's the man we want for the job. Notice how other teams have long since stopped pursuing him as a GM candidate.

Not that I doubt your prediction in the slightest, J.

[Dan]

taguchi plays for the cards...we got IGUCHI...i think if this team is going to win rowand is going to be a part of it...odds are he gets paid and his production drops off next year...after all, 2007 has been his best season ever, by far...i know we all want to sign pitchers, but have you seen the list out there??? its awful...unless livan hernandez lights your fire

[Andy]

Dan
the list is bad; the need is great. Everybody will be overpaying for Linebrink, etc. I just expect, however, that Phils management will pay Rowand, swing a deal to get a 3B and sign one of the real losers on the list. (Plus make a run at Carols Silva - which may be okay.) (Maybe.) And then they'll say, we've improved the team!!!!! Come buy tickets!!!!! And we'll know that we still don't stand a real chance because there is no pitching.

It's all about the pitching.

[CJ]

In 10 of Gordon's last 11 appearances (apart from the Atlanta implosion), he's allowed just 5 hits and 2 walks in 10 innings, and 1 run while striking out 8.

Is it good or bad that Gordon and Myers imploded on the same day? I suppose that's the only way we lost that game... but had one of them saved their blow up game for the next appearance, we likely would have lost that game, too.

[from the district]

dan - aye, there's the rub

we may all talk like these guys have an easy job, but they don't.

[Andy]

And CJ, Gordon's "implosion" was on cheap hits. Flares that fell. His stuff was actually good that night, too. (The same cannot completely be said of Myers on that historic eve, however.)

[TK]

I just had a somewhat crazy thought...

Maybe it's a blessing in disguise that Gordon was out for so long this year? Now he's a little fresher than he would've been and he can thus be a solid setup guy for the stretch run?

I use the ?'s cause I'm unsure of this actually being true, but it's possible, right?

[Dan]

it takes a clever GM to swing deals...it also takes a well-stocked minor league system, which we clearly lack (at least those which are big league ready)so next year we'll prob be talkin "value village" again

lets just forget about all this until the seasons over...clearly, the bullpen should be stocked with more arms (mateo, bisenus etc((who seemed to have a spot in spring training his stock must have fallen like crazy))..

we can only play with the 25 we got, as maddening as they are at times...im right up there with the pessimists in here...but we got a shot so lets all jump on board...and then talk smack in 2 weeks when we fall short again...

[control13]

Gordon's Atlanta "meltdown" didn't involve many hard hit balls as I recall. So on balance, he's pitched better. It does concern me that his back tightened up sunday. That can't be good.

[CubeHostage]

wow, really entertaining posts today...

on the Rowand re-signing debate:
SIGN HIM NOW! GIVE THE MAN A CONTRACT! DON'T BE DAFT!

those of you claiming that his production will drop off next year because he's only playing for a contract need to re-evaluate his numbers. this isn't a career year for him(although it's a great year). it's actually statistically comparable to 2005 when his was with the White Sox. it seems to me that he's not having a career best year now, but rather that he had a career bad year last year in 2006.
secondly, you've got to sign him for his righthanded power. i know with Burrell's resurgence, it seems like a bit of a luxury, but if Pat gets a hangnail next season, you can beat that his production will plummet again. Rowand is our insurance.
and thirdly, all of you focusing on acquiring pitching pitching and more pitching need to take a second look at the free agent market. it's Carlos Silva and that's pretty much it... our best bet to get some decent pitching is via trade. and if Rowand is secured, then Bourn or Victorino become mighty attractive trade bait...

[kdon]

You have to love the combined cognitive dissonance of the Beerleaguer culture:

1) We need pitchers!!!!
2) Sign Aaron Rowand!!!

[Dan]

cube....in 2005 Rowand hit .270 with 13HR and 69 RBI....he has blown that out of the water this year...this year hes hitting .316 with 26HR and 87 RBI in fewer games no less....how that is comparable is beyond me...nonetheless i do hope he is re-signed because his intangibles (see: leadership, WS ring and face plants) are awesome...

[curt]

Unfortunately, someone will overpay for Rowand, and it won't be the Phillies. (We only overpay for mediocre/old/injured pitching.)

[CJ]

The lineup next year without Rowand:

SS Rollins
CF Victorino
2B Utley
1B Howard
LF Burrell
3B Dobbs/Helms
RF Werth/Bourn
CA Ruiz/Coste

I'd rather spend the Rowand money on pitching. This team's budget will not climb enough to justify spending millions on Rowand at the expense of our pitching staff.

[Jack]

He meant 2004. Those numbers are similar. Don't have them offhand, I assume someone can find them in a second.

[AWH]

kdon, it's not cognitive dissonance if ownership is willing to increase payroll............................................................................................................................................never mind.

[AWH]

...................never mind.

[AWH]

Prediction:

Next year Rowand will be patrolling CF in Fenway Park.

[Alby]

Dan: Actually, we can play with more than 25 after Sept. 1. That's why people are bitching about Happ and Bisenius not being in the bullpen. They clearly could help more than Mesa. I would further call for 86'ing Joe Table and replacing him with that Braves castoff we had at AAA, what's his name, Bubba something. Hell, he's got to be a better choice for a start than Adam Eaton.

[Alby]

CJ: I really don't like that 3B platoon. The "pitching" automatically improves with a real third baseman. I still like Lowell.

[CubeHostage]

Jack: thank you. i did mean 2004. i just rushed the post cause my boss was calling...
here are rowand's lines for 2004 and 2007 (thru last night's game)

2007- .316 avg, .529 slg., .381 OBP, 87 RBI, 26 HR, 100 runs in 149 games and 561 ABs

vs.

2004- .310 avg., .544 slg., .361 OBP, 69 RBI, 24 HR, 94 runs in 140 games and 487 AB

[CubeHostage]

very consistent if you factor in that he played in fewer games in 2004... does anybody know why? did he miss time on the DL?

again, i think this signing is extremely important to free up Vic or Bourn for a trade. that is where we get our pitching help...

[CubeHostage]

Dan: and of course i totally agree with you on Rowand's intangibles... his leadership has left an indellible mark on the character of this team. sadly, AWH, faceplants are not appreciated in Boston or anywhere else as much as in Philly, and that WS ring, well, maybe the Phils wouldn't have faltered down the stretch these last few years if they had a few more guys, like Rowand, who'd been there and knew what it would take...

only time will tell!

[msb]

The only way I would keep Rowand is if we are planning on sending Bourn or Vic and other prospects to a team in exchange for a starting pitcher. Otherwise, I feel all money should go to pitching.

[Dan]

agreed, Cube.

And Alby, I obviously know the roster expands in September, i think you got my drift re:25 man roster...it is eggregious that no one else has at least gotten a shot...can't someone get some answers out of stand pat on this???

i'm all for trading bourn. But really, are we going to get that much for a guy whos only showed that he can do one thing well at this level?

My original point was that we will have plenty of time to debate which offseason moves we should make...especially now that the eagles might be 6-10 this year...so lets just enjoy the ride for the next two weeks...i know i have.

[CJ]

Alby: You may not like it, but Helms signed a multi-year deal. You think they're going to eat that money? And in this platoon, Helms would only start against lefty pitching. His OPS+ this year (and it's a down year) is 101 against lefties.

I don't like Helms as a regular 3B either... I just don't see us spending the money here, especially with Helms already signed.