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Monday, July 30, 2007


No worries. I'm sure Rich Dubee will straighten this lad out.

Please, I invite someone, anyone to convince me that this guy is an upgrade on anyone in the Phillies' rotation, including J.D. Durbin. His last winning season was in 2003, and he's never had an ERA under 4.00 in seven major league seasons. Explain to me how this is the type of pitcher who can give a contending team an 'edge'.

If all they're giving up is a Michael Dubee type, then fine. Otherwise, it's a total waste of time at best.

They gave up 23 year-old Double A southpaw Matt Maloney.

Potentially radical thought...

Maybe Gillick isn't finished with Lohse. Would a package of Durbin/Kendrick and Bourn get us something substantial now that Gillick has seemingly found his 4th or 5th starter?

RSB: I don't know if he's definitely an upgrade over Durbin, but I think he could be. Durbin has never had an ERA under 6.30 in a season and has been cut a half dozen times. Explain to me how Durbin is a sure thing by comparison?

Sounds like the scouting report for Eaton (or Durbin as far as that goes).

Question for Beerleaguers: IF Phillies make the playoffs, who are the 3 starters?

HAMELS, MOYER, & KENDRICK would be my 3 choices.

I am pretty confident no one would have picked the last 2 in spring training provided we make the playoffs, pretty amazing actually if the Phils pull it off.

JB: I find it hard to believe the Phils go less than 4 deep as a playoff rotation unless they get desperate and have to rush Hamels back out there.

That's too much.

Clout, I have no 'love' for Geary. I know that what he did in the second half last season could easily be seen as an aberration - except that I watched him pitch some lights-out set-up work in important games for two months last year. He didn't make many bad pitches. I'm not saying he'll do that again, but why say it's not a possibility?

And here's the question you continue to glibly ask: "since you don't think they need to make a move, then you think they can make the playoffs as is, no? Or would you prefer they miss the playoffs again?"

I'll answer with a question of my own: how in the world can you honestly believe that this kind of 'move' is going to increase the Phillies' chances of being a playoff team? Lohse is garbage. Sure, he might pick up a few impressive wins along the way - and so did Durbin. The rest of the time, they're going to get hammered. So while I'm not saying Durbin is the answer, it's rather impossible to understand how Lohse, with the hideous numbers he's put up this year, will be even a shred better. This is NOT an improvement - and in the meantime, the Phillies lost a pitching prospect.

Not sure what to think of this deal. I guess on the bright side they give little but it feels like we basically picked up another Adam Eaton.

RSB: What do you see in J.D. Durbin that no one else here does?

if maloney for lohse is correct - there is no way you can complain about that deal.

BAA .280, Whip 1.34 Era 4.58.

Those are numbers that get you wins with this offense.

33 Walks in 131 innings is the big stat, I think. Thats a perty darn good walk rate. We have solid defense out there but a small home ball park so you just cant give up walks. Look what KK has been able to do because he throws strikes. This is a solid deal if it turns out to be true.

hideous numbers he's put up this year, will be even a shred better. This is NOT an improvement - and in the meantime, the Phillies lost a pitching prospect.

I wouldn't go as far as to call his number hideous. He's on one of the worst teams in the league...or was, at least. And his ERA is below Eaton's.

The Phillies lost a decent prospect, but no one here can honestly say that Maloney will be a difference-maker in the majors.

Another inconsistent pitcher for this rotation. Yawn.

I like Maloney better.

I have been one of the most vocal about not trading away our future for a rent-a-player like Lohse. With that said, I do think Lohse is a slight upgrade over Durbin. Durbin has bigger upside in the long run if he can harness his ability, but for now Lohse is a slightly better option. Giving up Maloney is questionable. It looks like he had a future as a 4th/5th starter in a year or two, but you never know with "prospects" and he far from can't miss. So I know this next statement will make Clout smile and smirk- this was an ok trade.

Lohse's NL-only numbers this year:

112.7 IP
3.59 ERA
1.23 WHIP
69 K; 5.52 K/9
24 BB; 1.92 BB/9
2.88 K/BB
11 HR; 0.88 HR/9

maybe it's just me, but that looks better than just about everyone in the rotation not named Cole Hamels. and before everyone flips out about CBP, the Great American Ballpark isn't exactly Safeco.

RSB: Durbin has started 4 games for the Phillies. Two good, two bad. So your projection is based on two games, while ignoring the rest of his career?

I think signing Savery made Maloney expendable. Now HE can be the 4th or 5th starter in a year or two.

Clout: I know you can read better than that. Would you like me to say it again?

"So while I'm not saying Durbin is the answer, it's rather impossible to understand how Lohse, with the hideous numbers he's put up this year, will be even a shred better."

If Durbin can have quality starts against two of the top teams in the NL, it might just stand to reason that he'd have a few left in him down the stretch as well. But this isn't about defending Durbin. It's about asking HOW LOHSE IS AN UPGRADE.

clout - You said "ERA is a meaningless stat for relievers.", and I do (to a point) agree that it has MUCH less value to a reliever than to a starter.

But if that's the case, what is a meaningful stat for relievers? If you use WHIP, Geary had a WHIP below the NL average in 2005 and 2006.

I think lohse will be solid, if he can keep at at 2 to 3 runs over 6 innings, I'll take it. Besides, you have Moyer to help Lohse with the mental side of things.

from the district: Please don't confuse o'neil & RSB with facts!

clout - and what about Lohse's career? What exactly do you see in *Lohse* that no one else does? Tell me what the great big difference is between Lohse and Durbin. Please. Go on.

*Mets are set to acquire Luis Castillo for 2nd. He's ok, but I can't see him putting up better #'s than the Easley/Gotay platoon they've been working.

As I posted on the previous thread, the one thing the Phillies farm system has is pitching. Maloney would rank 4th best among pitching prospects and you can make a case that Mathieson and Happ are better, which would make Maloney 6th best.


Who, in your opinion, are the top pitching prospects now?

Savery has to be right up there, no?

Where do you find the stat on his ground ball ratio - I see that being extremely important at the bank. Does anyone know it? has the Braves getting that true?

Upon further review, maybe I don't care about Maloney a whole lot, but Lohse is extremely underwhelming. A trade being made is always exciting to talk about, but Lohse is being made into a savior already.

I'll be happy if Lohse proves me wrong.

And Clout, is Lohse consistent?

All I said was "Another inconsistent pitcher for this rotation. Yawn." Seems to be a FACT to me. LOL.

To be honest, I'm just glad they didn't give up Bourn. Though hopefully I'm not speaking too soon. Arguments with clout aside, I can't fault the Phillies for making this move - but I still fail to see how anyone expects a guy like Lohse to make any kind of impact on this team's chances.

Considering the market and what we gave up this is not a bad deal. I assume Lohse takes Madson's spot on the 40 man roster? I am usually the first to criticize, but if the lineup can still crank out the runs we can make a run at the playoffs, which is really all you can ask for.

Lohse is a league average pitcher; he certainly not hideous. Lefty starters are hard to come by and giving up Maloney seems like a hefty price for someone who will likely only have 11 starts as a Phil. I understand the move, but I am not sure Lohse provides much if any of an upgrade over Durbin. I am with Carson -- this is an OK trade. If anything if gives the Phils some much needed depth.

I still think this may be only the prelude to a larger deal.

Call it a gut feeling.

RSB: Gladly. Please look at the post by ae above. Also look at his past 5 starts. These are facts, however, so feel free to ignore them. You usually do.

stjoehawk: A reliever's job is to 1. hold a lead or 2. keep the other team from widening their margin if you're losing. So I look at those things first. Then I want to see how many of his appearances were scoreless, since 2 or 3 bad games can ruin your ERA. I also look to see how many inherited runners he allowed to score since that goes on the ERA of the starter. Finally I want to see his splits against lefties and righties to see if he can be trusted against all batters (which you want from a closer or setup guy) or should be spotted one-way only.

o neil: And ae's post wasn't a fact?

RSB: Lohse is an upgrade because he is a known quantity. (we have no idea what Durbin is gonna do) I truly believe that if the Phils can score runs like they have been that Lohse we win with this team. That is what Gillick is banking on. Lohse has shown what he can do, and has done it for several years now.

With the stats posted above, there is a good chance that he can win a good amount of games down the stretch because of our offense. If the offense can't get it done, Phils aren't going anywhere anyway.

All they have to give up to do it was a prospect that has little chance of being any better than Lohse is now.

I'm not saying its earth shattering, but it makes the team better, in my opinion.

"Where do you find the stat on his ground ball ratio - I see that being extremely important at the bank. Does anyone know it?"

It can be found on the ESPN player pages.

Over his career, his GB/FB ratio is 1.01:1. He was a FB pitcher in his first 3 years, a GB pitcher in the next two, a FB pitcher for MIN in 2006, and a GB pitcher for CIN in 2006, and a FB pitcher so far this year.

Who says Lohse is a savior?!?!?!?

This team needs arms... and we don't have much in the way of prospects to get the best on the market without giving up someone we don't want to or can't afford to give up.

I think Lohse can help. But only time will tell.

Phuture Phillies gives a not great review of Maloney for those that don't know much about him:

so are we losing much?

the other side of this move is that I assume it puts Durbin in the pen. I think that could be a good move for him and for the team - I think he has the stuff to take on Madson's role. the question of course will be if he can maintain his composure, but that's no less true of him as a starter.

I think that's the point, CJ. No one is saying that he is, though others are claiming they are!

When does Lohse pitch? Wasn't he due to go tomorrow night for CIN?

clout: Ah... you were talking about ERA for relievers. I understand your point now.

I think it is a good trade - it gives us depth without giving a way a top prospect. However, we still need another arm in the bullpen. What would The D-Rays want for Al Reyes? Probably too much as they always ask for too much.

Prices seem to be coming down. The Mets are getting Castillo for two prospects (ie. non-prospects), we got Lohse for Maloney (a nice prospect but not Carrasco or Bourn).

Remember Juan Pierre-Castillo 1-2 punch by the Marlins? Reyes-Castillo - yikes! The key is that the Mets don't get pitching and we get another arm for the bullpen. If we can get a starter for maloney, tell me we can get someone better than Condrey or Mesa for another similar type prospect.

Rumor is that Mets are trying hard for Blanton....

I said he's underwhelming, which is my opinion and his overall numbers show that. He's also a bit of a headcase, which is the same as the guy's he's replacing. At this point, I hope for the best from him, but I don't need you lumping me in with what someone else says.

Bridcoc: Yes, I didn't include Savery because he hasn't pitched a single pro inning yet, but he almost certainly makes the top 5. That would push Maloney down to 6 or 7. As I said on last thread I like Carrasco, Outman and Drabek better (assuming he comes back healthy). You can make a case that Happ or Mathieson is better, again assuming they come back healthy, which would put Maloney at #6 among pitching prospects. I also like Drew Carpenter and Edgar Garcia as sleepers, although would not rate them higher than Maloney right now.

Can anyone tell me who there gonna cut donw the roster to fit him in? Maybe.... cut Barajas?

I am not in favor of the Lohse trade because I think the Phils don't have a legit chance for the playoffs.

That said, Lohse is an upgrade over Durbin. Durbin was a nice story and has "ok" stuff but do you think he will be able to stay healthy and post an ERA under 5.00 for the next 2 months? I doubt it.

BTW, Eaton hasn't been on the disabled list yet this year, he's due so Lohse can fill his roll.

Here's my point: How can competition for the 5th starters job with a guy who's bounced from organization to organization with no success a bad thing?

If Durbin keeps the job then Lohse can be long-relief or injury insurance. If Lohse keeps the job than Durbin can hold that role.

Right now, if a starter goes down, like Kendrick or Eaton, we've got no one.

MG: So because you believe they don't have a chance, they shouldn't do anything? Even if it's giving up a couple of middling prospects?

Here's the defense of the trade as I follow it: Lohse is a known commodity. We know he isn't very good. We also know Durbin isn't very good, but in fact he might be even worse than Lohse because he hasn't been not very good over a long period of time.


word is Barajas will be cut soon. but my guess is Condrey gets sent to Canada to play on the Lynx.

CJ: your point about depth and insurance is the only defense of this trade which resonates with me.

RSB: what about the statistics?

Kyle Lohse is a significant upgrade over both Durbin and Eaton and keeps him away from the Mets, so it is a double move.

"The New York Post reported that the Mets could take a run at Kyle Lohse after the dealine by hoping he clears waivers and can be dealt without another club claiming him. Other pitchers who could be moved in that scenario, the Post reported, are White Sox righty Jose Contreras and Baltimore's Steve Trachsel."

He is a better exerienced 4-5 guy than Conteras, Trachel, and Jennings. This is not an ace. The key with this guy is to yank him with the long reliever if he is not on his game.

Giving up Matt Maloney, is significant, however they have about a dozen minor league pitchers of this value at the moment.
"Maloney, Matt, LHP (age 23) Grade = B
On paper, Maloney should be an A++. He put up a sparking 2.03 ERA in 168.2 IP in 2006, allowed only 120 hits and struck out 180 batters, en route to helping lead the Blueclaws to the SAL title. However, there are some problems, in my view. First, he was 22 the entire year, on the high end of the prospect spectrum. College pitchers should dominate at low A, and Maloney did. The second problem, which ties in with the third, is his walk rate. He walked 73 in the 168.2 IP, which is a lot of walks. This ties in with the third problem, his mediocre stuff. He has a deceptive delivery (but it looks max effort to me, which could be a problem), and he relies on his slow curveball to get outs. The problem is, at higher levels, batters are less likely to swing at breaking balls out of the zone. Most guys with fringe stuff are pinpoint control guys, like Kevin Slowey and Jeremy Sowers, and scouts even question their success at higher levels. For a guy with an 86-89 MPH fastball, even for a lefty, I think he’s going to need to really refine his control at the higher levels, or he’s going to hit a wall quickly."

It shows that the Phillies believe they can make a run this year. These are shrewed, mature moves. Adding Tadahito Iguchi (the best 2B man available at low cost) to the best 4-5 starter available without giving up the future, is good news for the franchise.

These are not automatic slam dunk moves, there must be a bit of luck with these things for post seasons to be achieved, but I am very happy with both moves.

Do not forget that the trade of little Dubee, should foreshadow and portend bomber Dubee's departure (and the non-stop random injuries to the pitching staff) this winter.

Stand Pat just did. He stood Pat. He did not give up anything projected to be significant to our future, and acquired two average-above average pieces for this year.

CJ - Exactly! This gives us a little depth and it doesn't cost us much. Maloney wasn't going to pitch here before end of 2008 or 2009 and I like Outman, Carrasco, Happ, Castro and Segovia better.

Plus if we can sign those two other draft picks that are thinking of going to college, we make our system stronger.

But we still need more depth. Remember, Mesa was willing to go to minors when we signed him so if we got depth we could send him or geary back to canada.

Alden's back!

and he likes a Gillick move!

I think Gillick has come thru for us nicely here, getting Iguchi & Lohse for very little.

If SirAlden is endorsing it, now I know for sure this is a worthless move!

district: yeah - what about the statistics? What do they tell you? Because Eaton can win with an ERA around 6, it follows that Lohse can win with an ERA of 4.50? Okay. All our problems are solved.

RSB: I'm amused by the way you keep ignoring the stats that show Lohse is about a league-average pitcher so that you can say he's "garbage," "isn't very good," etc. Rather than insisting this is so, why don't you look him up and tell me which stats indicate to you that he's not immediately the second- or third-best starter on this team.

Durbin's two good games came in two of the best pitcher's parks in the league. We won't be back there until next year. He's easily a bigger head case than Lohse. And all Gillick gave up for him is a guy who's probably three years from taking on any kind of major role, and that's if he makes it at all.

While I realize you, and the rest of us, would like to get a much better starter, we have nobody to offer. I guarantee you the top two Phillies prospects would not be worth nearly what the best Atlanta prospects fetched from Texas.

In short, this was about the best I expected Gillick to do. I don't see where the trade requires a "defense," because your attack on it is toothless -- it amounts to you feeling blue because you would have liked a bigger trade, not because there's anything wrong with this one.

Not a great deal, but ok. I hope Gillick isn't done.

A 4.58 ERA in a bandbox is pretty decent these days, RSB. And just 3.59 against NL teams. From my perspective though, whether or not he's an upgrade over Durbin, which I'm not so sure of - yeah, Durbin lost some velocity once upon a time, but he still has a plus curve and a live enough fastball with movement, and decent control - he's clearly an upgrade over Eaton. Similar kind of a pitcher, good stuff, bad head, but he mixes in more good outings with his bad ones. The real question to me is whether you want to keep Durbin or Eaton in your rotation. Sure, Durbin has the potential to blow up, but how much worse than Eaton could he get? I don't think Eaton is ever going to put it together, so if you could find some pitching-desperate team willing to swallow his contract, that would help us out in the long term.

what about Chad Bradford with the O's - doesn't he have a big contract or something. Wouldn't he be an upgrade for our Pen and give us some depth. I'm betting he can be had cheaply if someone wants to pay his salary.

Alby: Besides ignoring all the regular stats, RSB ignores the run support stat. Lohse's been averaging fewer than 4 runs per start to work with. That ain't gonna happen here.

RSB: How about the fact that he's got a better career ERA than Durbin? How about the fact that he has a significantly better career K/BB ratio? How about the fact that Lohse has a better career WHIP than Durbin.

Are you really being seduced by a couple of starts from a guy with just five career starts?

I'm NOT saying Lohse is a savior. I'm saying there's a good chance that he'll be a better 5th starter than Durbin through the rest of the year. The Real Deal will likely have a harder time getting through lineups now that the league has some good tape on him.

On top of that, Lohse provides depth that is NON-EXISTENT right now. We're one injury away from bringing Happ back up. I don't think any of us want to see that.

This all assumes that Kendrick is a sure solution as the 4th starter and Eaton as the third starter. A team with that many questions can't pass on a major league ready arm in a trade for a middling prospect.

Tray: Eaton is no day at the beach but he's on pace to win 15 games. Let's wait until he stops winning to yank him from the rotation.

Yeah, there's no way Eaton goes anywhere unless he gets injured.

I can't believe I'm agreeing with SirAlden here. I feel so....dirty.

Alby - yup you are exactly correct. This helps the team without hurting the future what is not to like.

However, I would kind of like Gillick to go all in and trade a prospect or two for someone who could have an impact. But the reality is if he can give us a little more depth, Burrell keeps hitting, Gordon and Myers don't go back on the DL and Utley returns by 3rd or 4th week of August, we have a very good shot.

Tray: "...if you could find some pitching-desperate team willing to swallow [Eaton's] contract..."

Um, Tray, I think you just described the Phillies. We're the most pitching-starved team in MLB.

Incidentally, I think this trade was made with more than this season in mind. If Lohse pitches the way I expect -- Cory Lidle level, basically -- I imagine Gillick will offer him a deal to keep him, and console himself with a draft pick if he leaves.

Damn RSB, Alby just tore you a new one.

Since when did you look at wins and losses clout? Isn't that directly attributable to some astronomical run support? A factor totally beyond his control (except for the fact that he's a good hitting pitcher) and that could change any minute? The last time the guy even went seven innings was June 11th.

Considering the trade market, this is about as good a move as the Phillies could have made (without giving up Vic or Bourn). A trade-up, is exactly that - a trade UP. Whether or not he's got 5 Cy Youngs coming in his career or he winds up in a Venezuelan prison for dumping gasoline on his ranch workers, you have to look at Durbin for what he is and to do that, you have to put the Kool-Aid down for a minute. Sure, he could be the pitching version of Chris Coste, but recent history being considered, it's not very likely. That being said, he should be able to really focus his efforts on improving the bullpen. If he's that good, he will and it sure will show, since the bullpen has been "garbage" all year.

Lohse isn't Lidge or a big name starter, but the move helps fill in the puzzle pieces without having to mortgage the future. This was a good SAFE move for Pat. He hasn't given up on this season yet, and he sure hasn't sold any key pieces for the next few years.

What amuses *me* is how anyone could think a pitcher of Lohse's caliber is any kind of difference-maker. If the argument is whether he's 'league-average' or whether he's garbage, I guess I'm old fashioned: what I see, again, is a pitcher who's *never* had an ERA below 4 and hasn't had a winning season since '03. Isn't 'league average' .500? Is Lohse not 6-12? Has he not allowed 5 runs or more in 8 of those losses? Even on a better team, doesn't he still project to lose more than he wins? So he's better than Eaton. La de da! Who the hell isn't? And no, Alby, I wasn't hopping for a 'bigger trade'. I was hoping for no trade at all, if the results were going to net fringe players like Lohse.

Here's my whole thing with the trade... I think its the best we could do right now unless Bridoc is onto something else with this just leading to another deal. We didn't give up Bourn, we didn't give up Carrasco so what ar epeople skepticial about? This is more about depth then anything that we are just getting a quailty arm which is really what the Phils need right now.

Let's get them Cubs tonight too!

I'm kinda surprised the comments have been mostly all positive regarding Lohse. I guess i'm remember wrongly, but wasn't he getting panned up until the point of the trade, now's he's a good pitcher? Is this a case that he's better now that he's *our* player?

Sweet deal. We'll never know whether it helped the team, but it will quiet the crowd and we still have all our young ballplayers.

Could this be a move that helps scout some of the NL Central teams coming up in the schedule, along with all other reasons stated?

I hope I am onto something else, but even if this is it, I'm ok with it. Note I said "ok" and not "ecstatic."

Lohse is an upgrade, at least in terms of experience, over both Kendrick and Durbin. Mahoney is a decent but not top prospect.

Credit where it is due to Gillick and company.

1. Hamels
2. Moyer
3. Kendrick
4. Lohse
5. Eaton

Bullpen of:
Long man: Durbin
Garbage time: Mesa and Geary
With a solid 4 of: Romero, Alfonseca, Flash, and Myers

I would still like the Phils to trade for a bullpen arm but if we dont make a trade that just might be solid enough with our offense to make the postseason

Let me make this simple- Kyle Lohse is like Cory Lidle...6-7innings of 3-5 run ball. Enough to win with this offense behind you. RSB, if Lohse actually had run support this season his won/loss record would be much better. His 4.58 era is better than Eaton, Moyer, and Durbin. I don't think he's a top of the rotation starter, but at this point in their careers he's better than Durbin, and a solid 4th/5th starter plus one more decent bullpen arm might be all this team needs to get into the playoffs.

The Lohse move doesn't do much for me, then again Maloney never really excited me either. Hopefully he pitches like a decent veteran starter down the stretch.

Gillick better not be done though. This team clearly needs at least one more arm in the pen, if not two. I'd like to see Damaso Marte and/or Chad Qualls traded here. Jon Rauch is a nice pitcher too. Also, Matt Thornton doesn't have the best numbers this year, but I'd take a chance on him coming in from the pen from the left side.

The singular most disturbing thing I see with this is that everyone is so caught up in Lohse's ability (good or bad) that not a single poster took the bait and make a Dick Pole joke. Does Jason have to put it in bold next time?

RSB, he's a difference maker because he makes a difference - that is, he's better than what we have. And on our team with our superior offense and, believe it or not, superior bullpen (to the Reds), he'd be projected to win more than he loses. If Eaton can be 9-6 with a 5.83 ERA, this guy can certainly win games for us.

Preacher- I was going to do a "Dick Pole" joke but Rusty Kuntz told me to chill.

Anyway, enough bashing Jose Mesa. I am not a fan of his, but he has been serviceable for us this season. 3.00 era and a 1.00 whip...that's good for a reliever, especially our relievers.

Gillick said he wanted a 5th starter... most of worried that would have cost us a Bourn or a Carrasco. It didn't. Gotta figure that's a plus.

Is it in an upgrade? Yes, slight.
Did we lose a Top 5 prospect? No.
Durbin to the Bullpen? He's seems better suited for the bullpen, doesn't he???

I'm good with this. I'm just worried that something else is coming that would be considered a panic move. Gillick's last 2 moves were hardly a panic move (ala Myers/Lieber bullpen moves in the beginning of the year.) They seemed like solid baseball decisions.

That's a good thing.

I say that considering that we only had to give up Maloney to get Lohse, that makes it a better trade than if we had to give up Bourn or Carrasco. I think Lohse was only a poor choice if we had to give up a lot to get him.

No, Lohse is not a big name. He's marginally better than Durbin, and only because of his experience. What you have to consider is that since the price was relatively small, this is a decent trade.

I have to think we need another good arm in the bullpen to have a real shot to do any damage in the playoffs. And that's assuming we can even get there. I'm hoping Pat's not done, but I hope he continues to only make smart moves.

Lohse has wins against the Cubs and Brewers this season with an ERA under 2.00 against both. As long as we keep him out of Cleveland (ERA 33.75) he should be fine.

Lohse is an upgrade. Maybe not a big upgrade, but he is better than Durbin, and Maloney will never make it past AAA. Durbin got shelled except for 2 starts, this is a good move, not a great one or a "stop the presses" one, but it will help. Why anyone would trash this move is beyond me. RSB - who out there is better that the Phils can realistically get?

Barajas, Condrey or Mesa are gone as a result of this trade. Lohse is an upgrade compared with all of them. Nuff said.

Here's what Jayson Stark writes about Dotel... kinda makes you wonder:

"So the field of bidders hasn't exactly grown. In part, that's because the Royals have asked for a top-of-the-line prospect back. But it also hasn't helped Dotel's value that he has pitched so sporadically. He still has worked only 23 innings all year. He has appeared in only three games over the last 12 days, despite the presence of a throng of scouts hanging out in Kansas City to watch him. And he has a 9.00 ERA in those three outings, allowing seven baserunners in three innings."

RSB: Isn't 'league average' .500?

There's so much wrong with that statement I can't even begin to address it. I guess people were wasting their time trying to show you his WHIP, his ERA+, all those stats that actually indicate a pitcher's quality independent of things like run support and home parks. Lohse was a well-regarded Twins prospect at one point who fell victim to inconsistency -- a guy not unlike Cory Lidle. In case you hadn't noticed, if this rotation had five league-average pitchers, the Phillies would be leading the division by a comfortable margin. As it was, their best pitchers are Hamels, who's in his first full season, and Kendrick, who's still wet behind the ears.

I disagree with the rotation above, because I think Moyer is No. 4, and only Eaton's dreadfulness keeps him from being No. 5. At this point, I'd rate Hamels, Kendrick and Lohse the three best starters. Difference-maker? What the heck does that mean? Sure, it would be nice to have the Braves' problem set, where your biggest hole is at 1B, the easiest position in baseball to fill. I think they screwed up, trading a guy with a much better chance than Bourn of being a future star, for a guy who's going to be league-average at 1B for a year plus two months (if they don't trade him next year at this time, that is). I'd have played Saltalamacchia at 1B and seen what he could do. Lots of people think it's great to roll the dice. I've been to enough casinos to know the best strategy is often leaving the money in your pocket.

Perhaps they don't have him out there because they rarely have save opportunities and he's the closer? Are they supposed to use him in just any old inning because a throng of scouts is there?

I simply disagree with the idea that Lohse is an upgrade. Sorry. If the argument is that the bats make Lohse a capable enough pitcher, then the same argument goes for Durbin. They're 3-1 in his starts.

So I guess he takes Durbin's start on Thursday afternoon? Set your Tivo's, gentlemen..

Condrey gets shipped back to Ottawa for the 49th time this season is my prediction.

Jayson Werth is almost ready to come of the DL and Phils are scrambling to make a roster spot for him. Hopefully that means the exile of Rod Barajas. The Angels need a catcher and I think Gillick should call Art Moreano up and start the process just like Kenny Williams did in regards to the Iguchi trade.

Righto, RSB. Keep ignoring those stats. Go with your gut instead. You simply disagree, with "simply" being the operative word there.

Dotel, by the way, scares me not at all. He's been a mess ever since the A's acquired him and tried him as their closer.

2007 Hamels - Kendrick - Moyer - Eaton - Lohse

2006 Myers - Hamels - Moyer - Lieber - Wolf

There's probably an upgrade somewhere in there...

Shouldn't Werth have to be better than someone currently on the roster to get his job back? Sorry, but Barajas has more value due to his ability to actually, rather than theoretically, play catcher. I'd ashcan Werth before Barajas.

Pre All-Star break Eeyore list.

#1 - Clout
#2 - Bay_Area_Fan
#3 - RSB

Post All-Star break Eeyore line-up.

#1 - Bay_Area_Fan
#2 - RSB
#3 - Clout

Good to see Clout is getting some sun, and reading about our re-invigorated minor leagues, and payroll structure straight-jacket being removed now that our GM is shrewd and mature.

The loss of Madson is significant, here is hoping the GM pulls off a hat trick and adds good reliever.

curt: What does 2006 have to do with anythign? We're not battling the 2006 Phils to make the playoffs.

But that's for raising a completely irrelevant point to shoot us off into a meaningless discussion.

Tray: Your absolutely right about Eaton. But the sonofagun has been lucky and I don't want to lose that.

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EST. 2005

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