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Monday, July 30, 2007


Reinserting Geary into pressure spots will guarantee late-inning losses. He cannot be used that way. He and Condrey pitch middle relief, Alfonseca takes the 7th, Gordon the 8th and Myers is the closer. When the team is behind, use Mesa.

I'd still prefer a starter and I've yet to get answer from all the posters who think the Phils can't get an upgrade over Durbin: Just what do you think Durbin is going to do the rest of the way? Carson? mm? Billy Mac?

I agree with you. Geary would be right down at the bottom for me. Let's hope Cholly sees it that way, but I somehow doubt it.

I'm with Clout, as far as the bullpen order goes. And as far as starters, an upgrade over Durbin would be nice, but like some said yesterday, I'm too sure some of the names floating around are that much better.

Stark also said last night that there is no decent pitching available at the trading deadline this year. That combined with the fact that we would have to give up Bourn or Victorino for junk, he didn't seem to think the Phils would be making a move at the deadline. August might be a better bet (and that's where the Phils were more active last year).

The only good news that Stark shared was that he is assuming the Phils will move or cut Barajas when Werth comes back.

Great back cover lead Sports Section story on Chris Coste by Sam Donnellon in today's Philadelphia Daily News.


Clout- if Durbin gets the chance to start the rest of the way, I would expect a 5.5-6 era from him. Not good. However, most of the starting pitchers names floating around would do about that same. Look at Eaton's "success" in Philly. That's what would probably happen to a Lohse, Kennedy, Woody Williams, Contreras, Reyes, Trachsel, etc. I do not expect good things from Durbin, but I also would not expect good things from a replacement starter for him unless that man was named Noah Lowry or someone like that. I'm not willing to trade good young cheap players away for old expensive has-beens. Now, if you can possibly get Kyle Lohse for organization nothings then do the trade, but not at the expense of a Bourn or some of our actual pitching prospects.

Well, the good news about Geary is that he had 17.2 innings and zero walks. That's great, considering he went down there to work on his command.

The bad news is he had given up 18 hits. But a 1.02 WHIP and a 2.01 ERA, which isn't terrible.

I haven't seen any Ottawa games so I can't say how he's really pitched.

i think we ought to declare a blog-wide holiday the day that rod "no-block" barajas is shown the door.

From the previous thread to answer Clout~

Because that's what Wade did. He depleted the farm system and also lost draft picks for the signings of Thome and Bell. I'm not saying any of the prospects her moved were even above-average. But as it turns out, teams want propects in deals and we have none to give. Heck we don't even have much to bring up. Gillick is trying to re-build the system as we all know.

Linebrink got traded for 3 prospects and some SD players are upset with the deal. As you recall, Rowand was rumored to go for Linebrink. Right now, the Phils couldn't make that deal and with the injury to Madson, Linebrink would look awfully good.

My point is whether good, bad right or wrong Gillick has precious little to trade and we all know the areas in which the team needs help. He didn't sign any guys for the 'pen in the off-season. And yes I wanted guys like Huff or Nixon. I fear we'll miss the playoffs again and right now this team should be leading the division. Gillick won't be able to fix the problem areas and we'll all be disappointed ionce again. When Rowand leaves and maybe Burrell we'll have no power bats in the OF and the 'pen could still be a mess. And the rotation needs help. Sad isn't it?

18 hits in 17.2 innings is not bad at all. If those stats are accurate, Geary has been good in AAA. Not saying he should be trusted in close and late situations again, but Cholly's insane bullpen management knows no rules of common sense anyway.

It took an injury to Utley to get Gillick on the phone for some help (coupled with the thought of Nunez as an "everday" 2B). Hopefully, the same can be said in this situation, as Geary in the Madson spot is just as frightening as the thought of weak dribbler after weak dribbler from Nunez.

Barajas being shown the door and Coste staying on the roster???? Is this the bizarro Phils?

Farnswoth got cheaper. Apparently, he had a run-in with Posada (Farnsworth's fault) and he almost blew a big lead yesterday.
Farnsworth has better stuff than anybody but Myers, but he is a nutcase. However, with Madson going down, we might need him as a lightning-in-a-bottle piece.
He could be a disaster character-wise, but he could also just need a change of scenery. If only the Spanks waited on Molina and waited on patching the hole at 1st. Would've been nice to package Barajas & Helms.

DPatrone: I'm confused. You concede that the prospects Wade gave up in trades were crap, yet he "depleted the farm system"? I do agree with your larger point that Gillick made his job much more difficult by not addressing the bullpen in the offseason.

Carson: I beleive Lohse will be considerably better down the stretch than Durbin. Let's see if I'm as wrong on this one as I've been about Victorino's steals.

This team just can't seem to catch a break, at least when it comes to injuries. I think Manuel overused Madson but at the same time who else did he have to go to that was more reliable. Geary is going to be the same bad relief pitcher he was before he was sent down. I would've been sold on a good relief staff if madson didn't get hurt. Now with him gone they are better but may be not good enough to get to the post season.

Durbin is going to be the key the rest of the way. If he ptiches well then they have a good shot at making the post season. No trade is going to improve the rotation at this point.

From what I've seen so far (which isn't much) Taguci may be a pleasent surprise and will fill the Utley role well enough until the Phillies hero returns.

I'd consider Fansworth b/c he's a great open field tackler (see previous bench clearing brawls where he has participated).
He could potentially be a 2-sport star in Philly as the Iggles might need to fill a hole at OLB - I'd take Farnsworth over Gocong.

So the loss of Madson, an enigma who has been more brutally beaten, berated, criticized and ripped than anyone not named Burrell or Manuel on this board means that the Phils post-season chances are diminished? What a finicky group.

I see it as as a good thing. 95% of this board has been looking to upgrade this 'pen via trade and now Gillick almost HAS to do something. The only bad part is that Madson will not be part of the trade.

There's too many wishy-washy types posting on this board. Bottom line is that pitching (from top to bottom, starter to reliever) needs an upgrade. If that is going to happen in time for this 'playoff push,' then something must be done now!! In order to do something, unfortunately that means that one or more of the current beloved Phillies will have to go. I understand that this is a team full of very likable guys, however, teams aren't very receptive to deal when Barajas, Helms, Mesa, Nunez et al are the only available players. We need to poop or get off the pot. This whole mentality of "if Durbin, Kendrick, etc. can pitch like they've been pitching, we're in this" is very wishful thinking. I've rather have more talented players than likable guys over-achieving. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned that way.

I agree with clout (I can't believe I just typed that ;-)

We need to bring in an arm and we need to bring it in now. It's not just because I don't trust the KK/Read Deal combo. It's because if one starter arm goes down, then what? Is it really Happ again? Are you kidding me? At least Madson could have started in a pinch.

Let's bring in a guy like Kennedy and immediately put him in the bullpen. We can give KK and the Real Deal a chance to keep their jobs, but at the moment they stumble, they become long-relief/spot starter in Kennedy's place.

Now, I'm not saying I want to trade Bourn for a guy like Kennedy, but Gillick's got to find a way to do something. It seems like every time things start to come together, another guy gets hurt.

That all sounds nice Willard (and i basically agree with you), but the question is what can you get for one of our beloved guys? I think we (almost) all agree that if you can get a solid pitcher (a good step above Towers, Lohse, Kennedy, Jennings, Farnsworth etc.), then trading Bourn, or a nice package would be ok, but would you really trade something you perceive as valuable, like Bourn, straight up for any of the guys above? The writing on the wall says that's what's available.


I understand that the injury forcing a need for a trade could be considered a "good thing," but there's no way to argue Madson getting injured is good for this team or bullpen.

I don't think you'll find me dogging him anywhere on this site. Since his rocky start the first two weeks of the season, here's what Madson's done in his last 33 appearances:

2.39 ERA, 1.24 WHIP, 36 Ks in 49 IP, Opp BA .231, Opp OPS .626, 2-0 recrod with 1 save

Losing Madson hurts this team more than anyone will likely get back in a trade.

Paging Brad Lidge. Paging, Brad Lidge.

Houston doesn't trade Lidge with Wheeler gone.

We need a starter period. If we are lucky enough to make the playoffs which is a huge IF, The four man rotation of Hammels, Eaton, Moyer and KK/Real Deal is a joke in a 5/7 game series. If just making the playoffs is good enough then stand pat, but if we are really trying to win it all then at least a number 2 starter is needed.

Hell, I'd even take Qualls from Houston if they don't want to part with Lidge. Damaso Marte would be very nice too, probably even better than Qualls.

CJ, comb through the archives, in particular the ones during the "Hot Stove" time period, and let me know what the general concensus on Madson was coming into this season. I think that the best compliment that he can be given on his 2007 effort is that it wasn't as bad as everyone anticipated. Then again, when you hold him up to his colleagues in the bullpen, he REALLY shines.

I'm not saying Madson getting injured is necessarily a good thing. I'm saying that the circumstances that really put the pressure on Gillick to make a trade is a good thing. I, personally, think Madson is serviceable. I also think that considering the alternatives on the bullpen phone he looks a lot better than he really is.

P. O'Neil, I would not trade Bourn straight up for any of the names mentioned in your post, but not because of fair trade value. My personal opinion is that with this Phillies team's core as is, there is a much better chance of them winning a World Series in a year or two (i.e. Bourn could be needed) than this year (for that playoff push that may come up short, yet again).

We need at least one starter and one reliever. Two relievers would be even better, but Gillick only has so much to work with.

From Donellon today:

"There were times I felt badly for Rod Barajas, the boos cascading down upon him really the only opportunity for fans to vent frustration over Coste."

No. The boos that cascade down upon Barajas are because he sucks.

@JW -- it's PODRES... Are you saying he wouldn't last with an over the top motion because he was being used as a reliever as opposed to a starter? I'm confused. Or would he say, that's not the way you pitch regardless... because I thought over the top is the way you are SUPPOSED to pitch... it's when pitchers lose that, they lose command. SEE Adam Eaton.

Secondly, is anyone else seeing a pattern here with our pitching staff. And I don't mean OVERUSE. Madson said he was having a shoulder problem and trying to pitch through it. Something Garcia tried to hide. It's possible that Myers had something going on before Barajas dropped the ball.

Are the players just manning up and lying to Dubee and Manuel about how they feel? Or are Dubee and Manuel completely IGNORANT of how their pitchers... look and feel???

I must admit, I got a big kick out of the boos Saturday night for Barajas when he pinch hit for Durbin. The message couldn't have been clearer and couldn't have been staged any better. Coste just hit a three-run jack. The crowd went nuts, but it wasn't enough to drown out the boos for Barajas, the very next batter, who struck out swinging. Davthom couldn't have written a more perfect script.

When you don't block home plate because you are scared of getting hit that is when you get booed, not because we want Chris Coste in there.

Willard: I'm not disputing there are some on this list that dislike Madson and have since the start of the season. Hell, there's people who dislike J-Roll on this list... so it's not hard to find angst.

My point is that Madson has been far better than "serviceable" since the middle of April... and I'm not just saying this now that he's been hurt, I've been a supporter of Madson just about all season long.

Mike Cunningham

Madsen seems to be more over the top then most pitchers. Releasing the ball at "10 o'clock" is more common.

Tim: I agree... booing Barajas isn't as much about Coste as it is about Barajas' incompetence. The return of Myers is a reminder of how Barajas dropped the ball... literally.

Count me in the camp that DOESN'T think the sky is falling if Madson is done for the year.

This team has gone two months without Myers

oops...posted too quickly.

...without Myers and Gordon. Geary was a dependable reliever the past two seasons before laying a large egg this season.

If - and this is a BIG 'if' - Cholly uses the pen the right way, this team should be fine with Pulpo pitching the 7th, Flash the 8th, Myers the 9th.

Imagine if we can get a Marte or a Dotel (imagine getting rid of nothing too substantial on our big league roster...)...

Braves acquire Texiera. Uh oh.

Link please, Mr. O'Neil.


All I'm saying is that Wade traded away a lot of minor league players to get deals done or lost draft picks for FA signings that's all.

BTW Teixera to the Braves is a done deal. He plus a pitcher for Slatalamaccia and 2 two prospects. That's my point. We don't have anything to pull a major deal off.

Not only Tex but also Ron Mahay, he who has a 2.77 era. So just like we knew they would, they acwuired a slugger and help in their bullpen. The Phils are using Mesa as their closer. Scary! Pick up bradford and Joe Kennedy. Move Kennedy to the pen where he has pitched mutch better but you have him in case Durbin struggles. Can probably do both without giving up Bourn.

The Phils are using Mesa as their closer.

Jeez...the Phils used Mesa with a four run lead against a BAD team.

Did you want Myers in there pitching in a non-save situation, fresh off the DL?

I didn't.

P O'Neil: Where'd you see that?

Exactly Bridoc. That's part of the reason Myers got hurt in the first place. No need to put him in back to back games just off the DL. If Cholly did that, people would've been up in arms.

source on Teixeira trade.

Those are exactly the situations when Mesa should be used. Then, and when down by at least three runs.

Otherwise, let him ride the pine. I had secretly hoped that he would be shipped out when Myers came back, but with Madson gone, he is a serviceable mop up guy.

The Braves ALWAYS do something. The Mets will too, I'll bet. What are the Phils doing? "Standing Pat" of course! All of the players we have mentioned in threads seem to be very easily attainable for very little. But Gillick has already made his 1 deal and that's 'cause he had to.

Bridoc10 - he was set to come in with a 2 run lead before Coste got a 2 run single. If Manuel had uses wE5 Helms or Bad-arajas, Mesa was closing in a save situation

Should be a good deal for the Braves, although I'm not sure why they weren't interested in playing Salty at first. He's a great prospect and he's major league ready. There's also a big question about whether the Braves have any chance of re-signing Teixeira after this season. He's a Boras client and asking for BIG money.

This shows the Braves are playing for now, and they had to do something to try and halt this slide. It just shows you what a team can do when they have a farm system with prospects to deal. Thanks Ed Wade... your legacy lives on!

Further Mesa and Alfateseca should have pitched in the 5 run lead the day before not Myers and Gordon. Dubee and Manual mismanage and burn out their pen by consistently using the wrong guys in the wrong situation

"All of the players we have mentioned in threads seem to be very easily attainable for very little. But Gillick has already made his 1 deal and that's 'cause he had to."

You saying the Phils could've gotten Tex for cheap or what? Who can the Phils get?

D. Patrone: "All of the players we have mentioned in threads seem to be very easily attainable for very little."

What do you mean by this? Not Teixeira, of course, who cost a small fortune in prospects. Are you referencing the bottom of the barrell pitching help available? I'd like to know who you knwo they are "very easily attainable for very little." All indications are that the pitching available is very costly right now relative to their actual value.

I hate the idea of just making a deal so you can say we made a deal.

I would NOT trade Bourn, Carrasco, or any of the other names being bantered about for the guys on the block at the moment.

Standing pat, while frustrating, is the smart move in this environment.

Tex is isn't a free agent until 2009. The braves will lose Andrew Jones next year so they'll be fine paying the $10-12 million Tex will receive from arbitration. Plus word is that Texas is paying about 1/2 of Tex's remaining salary in 2008. The braves know how to do things.

Mets will get some pitching, maybe Castillo and are trying to get Payton from the O's but I'm sure the O's owner will nix that similar to the way he nixed Tejada trades last year.

The Braves are in a more desperate situation than the Phillies, in my opinion.

They are about to lose one of their top players this off season, and their pitching staff is getting old.

It can be argued that their window is closing a little faster than the Phillies'. Hence, they are willing to pay a small fortune to get a guy like Texeira.

Bridoc10: Yes, if the deal is Carrasco for Lohse... then standing pat is the absolute right decision.

We have a team with GLARING holes and significant injuries. To deal one of our top two or three prospects or a guy contributing this year for a player who may very well be a downgrade from what we've got would be a colossal mistake.

I have to say, I think this trade is possibly the best possible outcome for the Phils, if you assume that the Braves were going to make some kind of power move.

Teixeira is moving from a great hitters' park to a solidly pitcher-friendly park. he's undoubtedly an enormous upgrade over what they're getting at 1B now, but his impending FA status means the Braves either sign him to an enormous long-term contract in the offseason (probably forcing them to settle for a second tier OF to replace Jones) or - unlikely - take the compensation picks. they're giving up several highly-rated prospects, which deprives them of cheap players and/or trading chips in the future.

don't get me wrong, the deal is certainly a good one for the Braves (just how good depends on which two pitchers they sent over), and very possibly makes them the favorites for the division. but I don't think it's as calamitous for the rest of the NL East as it could have been.

Bridoc10 - you are over valuing our prospects and buying into the hype. Bourn, Carrasco and Outman are the guys to be careful with. But we can improve by trading the Segovias, Happs and single A or lower guys. There are teams that want to dump salary, we can assume salary the way we did with Gooch and the way the Yankees did with Abreu last year. We got a variety of names, none of which are future superstars.

The Mets are 3.5 games above us and they are the best in the National league. In other words despite our problems we are 3.5 games from being the best in the Nat'l League. If we try and do it with Mesa, Geary, Condrey, Alfonseca - we're done. There are things we can do without trading Bourn and Carrasco including trading Ruiz if needed.

Slocs: It looks like we were both off by a year... Teixeira will be a free agent after the 2008 season. The long-term contract will still be an issue THIS season however as Boras begins his quest to make Teixeira a $25 million man. There is some thought that Boras was planning to put pressure on whatever team signed him to get a long-term deal done now. The threat is if it doesn't happen, he'll cost that much more on the free agent market after 2008.

oops, correction: Teixeira is not an FA until 2008 as slocs pointed out.

ae - I agree that Tex's numbers won't be as good in Atlanta but we won't be a free agent until after next year.


yeah, if you can trade Segovia for a reliever upgrade like the Dubee deal, but you actually have to find a team that wants him. His #'s are terrible.


The names you mentioned are the ones I want to hold onto. Not coincidentally, those are the players the other teams are asking for.

If you can get a helpful arm or two for J.A. Happ or Zach Segovia, or even Carlos Ruiz, I would do that in a heartbeat.

CJ - agreed, Boras will be causing problems but he'll still be under contract after arbitration in 2008 so he'll have to play.

I guess I don't disagree with what people are saying about Bourn and Carrasco - we can't trade them for a Kennedy or Lohse or Towers but we can trade other prospects for those guys. The big question is do you step up to the plate and trade Bourn and a top pitching prospect for Blanton of Oakland. He would be a difference maker and be here a long time.

It probably turns out that Madson probably should have gone on the DL for a much longer time in July. Yeah, Cholly overused him but I don't place any blame on Cholly for this one. Who else was Cholly supposed to use before Gordon and Myers got back? Sad thing is that this might be career-threatening to Madson.

I haven't been the biggest fan of Madson at times. Madson has decent stuff but seems to wilt at times especially in games late that are tied or the Phils are only up a run.

Still, Madson had been pitching very well the past month. Geary might pitch well out of pen but he will be exposed again if he is placed in difficult situations. Now, if the Phils are going to make a run they need at least one solid bullpen arm and a starter. The only way they get both is to give up a lot and I am firmly against that.

Yeah, Gillick didn't get the job done this offseason but the injuries can have killed this team. Gillick and Amaro can honestly state that injuries derailed this season (while overlooking their inadequate job of addressing the bullpen this offseason and some questionable signings).

Getting rid of Barajas will help me forgive some of Gillick's inactivity this past offseason.

The big question is do you step up to the plate and trade Bourn and a top pitching prospect for Blanton of Oakland. He would be a difference maker and be here a long time.

Is that kind of deal even possible? Does Oakland need a top of the order speedster like Bourn?

If they do, and it is, I would make that kind of deal.

MG: It's almost a shame that if the team falls short that the GM's office will blame injuries. Failure to prepare in the offseason helped lead to the bullpen injuries we've seen. I can't blame them for Howard or Utley, but with the offense we've had this year, we've been able to maintain good enough production when necessary.

Quick question:

If this team makes the postseason, do we give Gillick/Manuel/et al credit?

By reading these comments, you would think the Phils were buried in the standings and not surging to withing 1.5 games of the wild card and 3/5 games of the division lead.

I think Oakland is the wrong team to deal Bourn to. you're better off going with an old-school type GM who is going to value Bourn's skillset more than a guy like Beane. (at least that's my assumption.)

Honestly...i don't undersantad this. Who are we going to get who is really going to help this team, not just at a run at the playoffs this year, but subsequent years to follow.

I'm hearing alot of "we have to do something' but who do we move, and for who do we move them?

I'm interested. Let's seriously talk about some scenarios. If you were Pat Gillick(Not defending him), what would you offer and for whom?

Give the players the credit if they make the playoffs.


No I'm not talking about Tex. I'm speaking of the Joe Kennedy types. Right now guys like that may help the team. Also, I'm not saying make a deal just to make one. I'm saying we need help a some areas. I'm no expert and don't have a crystal ball, but I'm betting Gillick does absolutely nothing. Who cares if they talked to Fla. about Willis? They weren't getting him anyway. What you'll hear from them is "we tried but.....".

Bridoc: I guess it depends on how this season finishes.

Can you really give Manuel and Gillick credit for this spectacular offense? For that, I tend to give credit where it's due... the players.

Can you really give them credit for Kendrick and Durbin? They've clearly outperformed expectations at this point.

Can you give them credit for Barajas and Werth? I suppose Dobbs and Alfonseca were good signings, but they haven't been difference makers.

Sure, they get a little credit, but the talent on this team often succeeds in spite of the manager and GM.

D. Patrone:

But not even the Kennedy types are "very easily attainable for very little." That's the problem with the market as it stands right now. There are numerous teams with pitching needs but the price being asked for the talent available has virtually closed the market.

CJ~ You may be right. Like I said, I don't have a crystal ball. WHat I do know is that if the pitching isn't upgraded we're done.

"Can you really give them credit for Kendrick and Durbin? They've clearly outperformed expectations at this point."

But if you don't give credit for players who are outperforming expectations, doesn't it follow that you shouldn't punish them for players who have underperformed expectations?

stjoehawk: Valid point. I suppose it depends on the coach. If you have a pitching coach (like Mazzone or Duncan) who historically get pitchers to outperform their career averages then those coaches deserve credit. When you have Rich Dubee, you really have to ask yourself if the talent is performing well in spite of the pitching coach.

I checked out the remainder of the Braves schedule. I have to say, it looks to me as though it is MUCH easier than the Phils. They do not have the Dodgers or the Padres - they have Houston and St. Louis. This Tex trade worries me - it is a HUGE upgrade for them. I know we have to worry about the Mutts as well - but this is going to be tough. I hope Gillick can pull something off - a solid 8th inning guy - and Chase comes back soon!

But if you don't give credit for players who are outperforming expectations, doesn't it follow that you shouldn't punish them for players who have underperformed expectations?

My point exactly. This is a flawed team, and Gillick and company deserve the much-written about criticism for those flaws. In April, when the team struggled mightily, that criticism was just and warranted.

Now, the team is playing it's best ball all season. Why the criticism? Can't we just enjoy the ride?

stjoe, I think that's true - up to a point. you can criticize management for something like the Garcia fiasco because they (arguably) should have anticipated his injury, either by observing his decreased velocity or through medical tests (i.e. an MRI). you can criticize them for thinking Eaton was an ace in the making, because there was no reasonable basis for that expectation.

honestly, I'm not sure there's a single player on our roster who has underperformed reasonable expectations. Helms, possibly, but he's been very inconsistent throughout his career, and his 2006 numbers were obviously outliers.

"Now, the team is playing it's best ball all season. Why the criticism? Can't we just enjoy the ride?"

It's Philly. To paraphrase Mike Schmidt, where else can you get the thrill of a 5-1 homestand and the agony of reading about it on the next day?

I'm willing to give credit to Cholly for:

* Keeping the team playing hard in the face of injuries
* Getting the kids to play

Bridoc: DO you honestly think this team can make the playoffs without making a move?

The Braves have just traded away a guy (Saltalamachia) who will prove far more valuable down the line than the guy they got. Teixiera is a poor man's Chipper without the defensive versatility (insert sarcasm emoticon here). I agree with the poster who said Atlanta is in a far more precarious position long-term than the Phils are; basically, this buys them another year of contending, but at the cost of a guy who could have been a cornerstone for years. Foolish trade, IMO.

Clout: That's a loaded question. I don't think they have a better than 5-1 chance of making the playoffs even if they DO make a move.

Alby: If Teixeira is the difference between making the playoffs and not... it's had to call it foolish, especially considering Salty played a position at which they already had a young All-Star. Especially if they re-sign Teixeira at a reasonable amount, he's relatively young and a stud.

I guess we'll have to wait and see the short-term and long-term benefits of the deal.

er.. had = hard.

CJ, I'm assuming there's no way they re-sign him at a reasonable amount. There's word Boras intends to ask for $25M a year. He won't get it, but I don't think Atlanta will cough up the $90M/5-6 years it will take. I don't think as highly of Teixiera as many do, and I think Salty will prove a better player in the long run than McCann will. As for Tex putting Atlanta in the playoffs justifying the trade, I doubt that would do it for me if I were a Braves fan. They're always in the playoffs; they rarely reach the WS.

"honestly, I'm not sure there's a single player on our roster who has underperformed reasonable expectations. Helms, possibly, but he's been very inconsistent throughout his career, and his 2006 numbers were obviously outliers"

Which is why it is difficult for me to critisize this coaching staff for what they've done. besides Manuel's very bad in game strategy - getting guys to perform above expectations is the coaches jobs. This is arguably more important than strategy because good play overcomes bad strategy most of the time.

There is plenty of Dubee that goes on around here, but name the pitcher that you think he has damaged Don't we just have bad pitchers? (many of whom are pitching above expectations?)

insert "Dubee bashing that goes on around here"

Alby: When did the Phillies last make the playoffs?
If Tex puts the Braves in the playoffs, regardless of what happens going forward, how is that a bad deal?

DO you honestly think this team can make the playoffs without making a move?

No. But the move doesn't have to be made at the non-waiver deadline and at the expense of our (probable) future center/right fielder or one of our top prospects. In recent seasons, Cory Lidle and Jaime Moyer came after the deadline.

I would give the Phillies about a 40% chance to make the playoffs with its current roster and assuming the health and effectiveness of Myers and Gordon, and assuming Chase heals quickly.

ae? At no point did the Phillies think Adam Eaton (the second time around) was an ace in the making? Or are you talking about when they drafted him in the first round?

Eaton's salary (which is not an ace's salary) was comenserate with his career numbers, his years of service, combined with the market, combined with the premium for pitching in CBP. Eaton was not brought in as a top of the rotation guy.

Alby: I agree with much of that. I think Salty's ceiling is much higher than McCann's... and why not move one of them to first? Salty should crush it in the Texas bandbox stadium. I also think Atlanta will have a hard time keeping Teixeira because they've had their budget significantly cut back in recent years... and using Jones' money may not help much because they'll still need a CF. Long term, I don't like the Braves deal. Short term... we'll see how much it helps.

I wish there was plenty of Doobie being passed around here.

bridoc: I give the Phillies a 10% chance of making it with the team as is. But I do agree a waiver deal is possible.

We shall see.

I give Gillick major props for getting Gooch to keep Chase's spot warm until he returns.

I may be one of the few posters on here who still thinks he's a decent GM, despite the Jayson Werth and Rod Barajas debacles.

I feel bad that Madson is hurt, but I don't think his loss will affect the won-loss record of this team. He was mainly the innings eater on losing efforts or extra inning games.

I had this horrible thought that would cause Phillies fan to riot at CBP. I envisioned Gillick trading Coste for his bullpen help.

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EST. 2005

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