Report: Madson felt a tear, may be lost for season

Reliever Ryan Madson has been placed on the 15-day disabled list after physically feeling his pitching shoulder give way in the eighth inning. Geoff Geary has been called up from Ottawa. [Link]

Madson told the Philadelphia Inquirer his shoulder had been bothering him for a couple of days, but thought he could pitch through it. This is Madson’s second trip to the DL though you wouldn’t know it based on his innings; he’s up to 56 innings and had been heavily taxed lately.

Injuries can happen anytime, anyplace, but with Madson, you could see it coming. Can’t you just hear a pitching guru like Johnny Podres saying he’d never last with an over-the-top motion like his? Madson came up as a starter, looks like a starter and nearly has starter stuff. Instead, he’s been the Phillies' primary bullpen horse for almost four complete seasons, where you’d typically find some scruffy fireplug filling the role, not a 6-6 gazelle.

Last night on NBC-10 Sports Final, ESPN’s Jayson Stark said the Phillies had been trying to trade Madson. The time to do that might have been last off-season when a rebuilding club, like Washington, could have given him a second chance as a starter. It would have been easier to make that deal had the team added bullpen depth. All three pitchers who were penciled in as the top three relievers – Tom Gordon, Geary and Madson – have missed time with injury or were sent to the minors. Four if you count Matt Smith. Five if you add Brett Myers.

Speaking of Charlie Manuel, does he share some blame for abusing Madson’s arm? Probably a little, and here’s another familiar theme where the lines of communication didn’t appear fully open between a hurt pitcher and the coaching staff. Ineffective starting pitching, extra-inning games and so fourth can’t be predicted and led to a lot of bullpen abuse, however Manuel has kept his starters on noticeably shorter leashes lately, almost like one-in-three starts, including Adam Eaton on Thursday and possibly J.D. Durbin on Saturday.

Despite his demotion, rest assured Manuel won’t hesitate in reinserting Geary into pressure spots. Expect this to be the final straw for the front office. It had appeared the Phils would do nothing at the deadline, but now they simply can't stand pat and must find bullpen help immediately.

Comments

[clout]

Reinserting Geary into pressure spots will guarantee late-inning losses. He cannot be used that way. He and Condrey pitch middle relief, Alfonseca takes the 7th, Gordon the 8th and Myers is the closer. When the team is behind, use Mesa.

I'd still prefer a starter and I've yet to get answer from all the posters who think the Phils can't get an upgrade over Durbin: Just what do you think Durbin is going to do the rest of the way? Carson? mm? Billy Mac?

[J. Weitzel]

I agree with you. Geary would be right down at the bottom for me. Let's hope Cholly sees it that way, but I somehow doubt it.

[P O'Neil]

I'm with Clout, as far as the bullpen order goes. And as far as starters, an upgrade over Durbin would be nice, but like some said yesterday, I'm too sure some of the names floating around are that much better.

[Ribbies]

Stark also said last night that there is no decent pitching available at the trading deadline this year. That combined with the fact that we would have to give up Bourn or Victorino for junk, he didn't seem to think the Phils would be making a move at the deadline. August might be a better bet (and that's where the Phils were more active last year).

The only good news that Stark shared was that he is assuming the Phils will move or cut Barajas when Werth comes back.

[davthom73]

Great back cover lead Sports Section story on Chris Coste by Sam Donnellon in today's Philadelphia Daily News.

link:
http://www.philly.com/dailynews/sports/20070730_Sam_Donnellon___Coste_writing_brilliant_ending.html

[GM-Carson]

Clout- if Durbin gets the chance to start the rest of the way, I would expect a 5.5-6 era from him. Not good. However, most of the starting pitchers names floating around would do about that same. Look at Eaton's "success" in Philly. That's what would probably happen to a Lohse, Kennedy, Woody Williams, Contreras, Reyes, Trachsel, etc. I do not expect good things from Durbin, but I also would not expect good things from a replacement starter for him unless that man was named Noah Lowry or someone like that. I'm not willing to trade good young cheap players away for old expensive has-beens. Now, if you can possibly get Kyle Lohse for organization nothings then do the trade, but not at the expense of a Bourn or some of our actual pitching prospects.

[loctastic]

Well, the good news about Geary is that he had 17.2 innings and zero walks. That's great, considering he went down there to work on his command.

The bad news is he had given up 18 hits. But a 1.02 WHIP and a 2.01 ERA, which isn't terrible.

I haven't seen any Ottawa games so I can't say how he's really pitched.

[bathtubhippo]

i think we ought to declare a blog-wide holiday the day that rod "no-block" barajas is shown the door.

[D. Patrone]

From the previous thread to answer Clout~

Because that's what Wade did. He depleted the farm system and also lost draft picks for the signings of Thome and Bell. I'm not saying any of the prospects her moved were even above-average. But as it turns out, teams want propects in deals and we have none to give. Heck we don't even have much to bring up. Gillick is trying to re-build the system as we all know.

Linebrink got traded for 3 prospects and some SD players are upset with the deal. As you recall, Rowand was rumored to go for Linebrink. Right now, the Phils couldn't make that deal and with the injury to Madson, Linebrink would look awfully good.

My point is whether good, bad right or wrong Gillick has precious little to trade and we all know the areas in which the team needs help. He didn't sign any guys for the 'pen in the off-season. And yes I wanted guys like Huff or Nixon. I fear we'll miss the playoffs again and right now this team should be leading the division. Gillick won't be able to fix the problem areas and we'll all be disappointed ionce again. When Rowand leaves and maybe Burrell we'll have no power bats in the OF and the 'pen could still be a mess. And the rotation needs help. Sad isn't it?

[Bill]

18 hits in 17.2 innings is not bad at all. If those stats are accurate, Geary has been good in AAA. Not saying he should be trusted in close and late situations again, but Cholly's insane bullpen management knows no rules of common sense anyway.

[Willard Preacher]

It took an injury to Utley to get Gillick on the phone for some help (coupled with the thought of Nunez as an "everday" 2B). Hopefully, the same can be said in this situation, as Geary in the Madson spot is just as frightening as the thought of weak dribbler after weak dribbler from Nunez.

Barajas being shown the door and Coste staying on the roster???? Is this the bizarro Phils?

[Reed]

Farnswoth got cheaper. Apparently, he had a run-in with Posada (Farnsworth's fault) and he almost blew a big lead yesterday.
Farnsworth has better stuff than anybody but Myers, but he is a nutcase. However, with Madson going down, we might need him as a lightning-in-a-bottle piece.
He could be a disaster character-wise, but he could also just need a change of scenery. If only the Spanks waited on Molina and waited on patching the hole at 1st. Would've been nice to package Barajas & Helms.

[clout]

DPatrone: I'm confused. You concede that the prospects Wade gave up in trades were crap, yet he "depleted the farm system"? I do agree with your larger point that Gillick made his job much more difficult by not addressing the bullpen in the offseason.

[clout]

Carson: I beleive Lohse will be considerably better down the stretch than Durbin. Let's see if I'm as wrong on this one as I've been about Victorino's steals.

[Tim from Williamsport]

This team just can't seem to catch a break, at least when it comes to injuries. I think Manuel overused Madson but at the same time who else did he have to go to that was more reliable. Geary is going to be the same bad relief pitcher he was before he was sent down. I would've been sold on a good relief staff if madson didn't get hurt. Now with him gone they are better but may be not good enough to get to the post season.

Durbin is going to be the key the rest of the way. If he ptiches well then they have a good shot at making the post season. No trade is going to improve the rotation at this point.

From what I've seen so far (which isn't much) Taguci may be a pleasent surprise and will fill the Utley role well enough until the Phillies hero returns.

[Crazy Jon]

I'd consider Fansworth b/c he's a great open field tackler (see previous bench clearing brawls where he has participated).
He could potentially be a 2-sport star in Philly as the Iggles might need to fill a hole at OLB - I'd take Farnsworth over Gocong.

[Willard Preacher]

So the loss of Madson, an enigma who has been more brutally beaten, berated, criticized and ripped than anyone not named Burrell or Manuel on this board means that the Phils post-season chances are diminished? What a finicky group.

I see it as as a good thing. 95% of this board has been looking to upgrade this 'pen via trade and now Gillick almost HAS to do something. The only bad part is that Madson will not be part of the trade.

There's too many wishy-washy types posting on this board. Bottom line is that pitching (from top to bottom, starter to reliever) needs an upgrade. If that is going to happen in time for this 'playoff push,' then something must be done now!! In order to do something, unfortunately that means that one or more of the current beloved Phillies will have to go. I understand that this is a team full of very likable guys, however, teams aren't very receptive to deal when Barajas, Helms, Mesa, Nunez et al are the only available players. We need to poop or get off the pot. This whole mentality of "if Durbin, Kendrick, etc. can pitch like they've been pitching, we're in this" is very wishful thinking. I've rather have more talented players than likable guys over-achieving. Maybe I'm just old-fashioned that way.

[CJ]

I agree with clout (I can't believe I just typed that ;-)

We need to bring in an arm and we need to bring it in now. It's not just because I don't trust the KK/Read Deal combo. It's because if one starter arm goes down, then what? Is it really Happ again? Are you kidding me? At least Madson could have started in a pinch.

Let's bring in a guy like Kennedy and immediately put him in the bullpen. We can give KK and the Real Deal a chance to keep their jobs, but at the moment they stumble, they become long-relief/spot starter in Kennedy's place.

Now, I'm not saying I want to trade Bourn for a guy like Kennedy, but Gillick's got to find a way to do something. It seems like every time things start to come together, another guy gets hurt.

[P O'Neil]

That all sounds nice Willard (and i basically agree with you), but the question is what can you get for one of our beloved guys? I think we (almost) all agree that if you can get a solid pitcher (a good step above Towers, Lohse, Kennedy, Jennings, Farnsworth etc.), then trading Bourn, or a nice package would be ok, but would you really trade something you perceive as valuable, like Bourn, straight up for any of the guys above? The writing on the wall says that's what's available.

[CJ]

Willard:

I understand that the injury forcing a need for a trade could be considered a "good thing," but there's no way to argue Madson getting injured is good for this team or bullpen.

I don't think you'll find me dogging him anywhere on this site. Since his rocky start the first two weeks of the season, here's what Madson's done in his last 33 appearances:

2.39 ERA, 1.24 WHIP, 36 Ks in 49 IP, Opp BA .231, Opp OPS .626, 2-0 recrod with 1 save

Losing Madson hurts this team more than anyone will likely get back in a trade.

[Jon]

Paging Brad Lidge. Paging, Brad Lidge.

[ae]

Houston doesn't trade Lidge with Wheeler gone.

[Don]

We need a starter period. If we are lucky enough to make the playoffs which is a huge IF, The four man rotation of Hammels, Eaton, Moyer and KK/Real Deal is a joke in a 5/7 game series. If just making the playoffs is good enough then stand pat, but if we are really trying to win it all then at least a number 2 starter is needed.

[Jon]

Hell, I'd even take Qualls from Houston if they don't want to part with Lidge. Damaso Marte would be very nice too, probably even better than Qualls.

[Willard Preacher]

CJ, comb through the archives, in particular the ones during the "Hot Stove" time period, and let me know what the general concensus on Madson was coming into this season. I think that the best compliment that he can be given on his 2007 effort is that it wasn't as bad as everyone anticipated. Then again, when you hold him up to his colleagues in the bullpen, he REALLY shines.

I'm not saying Madson getting injured is necessarily a good thing. I'm saying that the circumstances that really put the pressure on Gillick to make a trade is a good thing. I, personally, think Madson is serviceable. I also think that considering the alternatives on the bullpen phone he looks a lot better than he really is.

P. O'Neil, I would not trade Bourn straight up for any of the names mentioned in your post, but not because of fair trade value. My personal opinion is that with this Phillies team's core as is, there is a much better chance of them winning a World Series in a year or two (i.e. Bourn could be needed) than this year (for that playoff push that may come up short, yet again).

[Jon]

We need at least one starter and one reliever. Two relievers would be even better, but Gillick only has so much to work with.

[Malcolm]

From Donellon today:

"There were times I felt badly for Rod Barajas, the boos cascading down upon him really the only opportunity for fans to vent frustration over Coste."

No. The boos that cascade down upon Barajas are because he sucks.

[Mike Cunningham]

@JW -- it's PODRES... Are you saying he wouldn't last with an over the top motion because he was being used as a reliever as opposed to a starter? I'm confused. Or would he say, that's not the way you pitch regardless... because I thought over the top is the way you are SUPPOSED to pitch... it's when pitchers lose that, they lose command. SEE Adam Eaton.

Secondly, is anyone else seeing a pattern here with our pitching staff. And I don't mean OVERUSE. Madson said he was having a shoulder problem and trying to pitch through it. Something Garcia tried to hide. It's possible that Myers had something going on before Barajas dropped the ball.

Are the players just manning up and lying to Dubee and Manuel about how they feel? Or are Dubee and Manuel completely IGNORANT of how their pitchers... look and feel???

[J. Weitzel]

I must admit, I got a big kick out of the boos Saturday night for Barajas when he pinch hit for Durbin. The message couldn't have been clearer and couldn't have been staged any better. Coste just hit a three-run jack. The crowd went nuts, but it wasn't enough to drown out the boos for Barajas, the very next batter, who struck out swinging. Davthom couldn't have written a more perfect script.

[Tim from Williamsport]

When you don't block home plate because you are scared of getting hit that is when you get booed, not because we want Chris Coste in there.

[CJ]

Willard: I'm not disputing there are some on this list that dislike Madson and have since the start of the season. Hell, there's people who dislike J-Roll on this list... so it's not hard to find angst.

My point is that Madson has been far better than "serviceable" since the middle of April... and I'm not just saying this now that he's been hurt, I've been a supporter of Madson just about all season long.

[VOR]

Mike Cunningham

Madsen seems to be more over the top then most pitchers. Releasing the ball at "10 o'clock" is more common.

[Mike Cunningham]

@vor. thanks

[CJ]

Tim: I agree... booing Barajas isn't as much about Coste as it is about Barajas' incompetence. The return of Myers is a reminder of how Barajas dropped the ball... literally.

[Bridoc10]

Count me in the camp that DOESN'T think the sky is falling if Madson is done for the year.

This team has gone two months without Myers

[Bridoc10]

oops...posted too quickly.

...without Myers and Gordon. Geary was a dependable reliever the past two seasons before laying a large egg this season.

If - and this is a BIG 'if' - Cholly uses the pen the right way, this team should be fine with Pulpo pitching the 7th, Flash the 8th, Myers the 9th.

[Malcolm]

Imagine if we can get a Marte or a Dotel (imagine getting rid of nothing too substantial on our big league roster...)...

[P O'Neil]

Braves acquire Texiera. Uh oh.

[Bridoc10]

Link please, Mr. O'Neil.

[D. Patrone]

Clout~

All I'm saying is that Wade traded away a lot of minor league players to get deals done or lost draft picks for FA signings that's all.

BTW Teixera to the Braves is a done deal. He plus a pitcher for Slatalamaccia and 2 two prospects. That's my point. We don't have anything to pull a major deal off.

[P O'Neil]

mlbtraderumors.com

[Slocs]

Not only Tex but also Ron Mahay, he who has a 2.77 era. So just like we knew they would, they acwuired a slugger and help in their bullpen. The Phils are using Mesa as their closer. Scary! Pick up bradford and Joe Kennedy. Move Kennedy to the pen where he has pitched mutch better but you have him in case Durbin struggles. Can probably do both without giving up Bourn.

[Bridoc10]

The Phils are using Mesa as their closer.

Jeez...the Phils used Mesa with a four run lead against a BAD team.

Did you want Myers in there pitching in a non-save situation, fresh off the DL?

I didn't.

[CJ]

P O'Neil: Where'd you see that?

[P O'Neil]

Exactly Bridoc. That's part of the reason Myers got hurt in the first place. No need to put him in back to back games just off the DL. If Cholly did that, people would've been up in arms.

[ae]

source on Teixeira trade.

[Bridoc10]

Those are exactly the situations when Mesa should be used. Then, and when down by at least three runs.

Otherwise, let him ride the pine. I had secretly hoped that he would be shipped out when Myers came back, but with Madson gone, he is a serviceable mop up guy.

[D. Patrone]

The Braves ALWAYS do something. The Mets will too, I'll bet. What are the Phils doing? "Standing Pat" of course! All of the players we have mentioned in threads seem to be very easily attainable for very little. But Gillick has already made his 1 deal and that's 'cause he had to.

[Slocs]

Bridoc10 - he was set to come in with a 2 run lead before Coste got a 2 run single. If Manuel had uses wE5 Helms or Bad-arajas, Mesa was closing in a save situation

[CJ]

Should be a good deal for the Braves, although I'm not sure why they weren't interested in playing Salty at first. He's a great prospect and he's major league ready. There's also a big question about whether the Braves have any chance of re-signing Teixeira after this season. He's a Boras client and asking for BIG money.

This shows the Braves are playing for now, and they had to do something to try and halt this slide. It just shows you what a team can do when they have a farm system with prospects to deal. Thanks Ed Wade... your legacy lives on!