Game chat: Phillies visit with old friends out west

Mike Lieberthal spent more games behind the plate than any catcher in Phillies history. Tonight, he sits opposite his old team for the first time.

The Dodgers are cutting Lieberthal a one-year, $1.15 million paycheck with a club option for 2008, but from a baseball standpoint, his career is hobbling down the home stretch. Barely getting time behind All-Star catcher Russell Martin, the Dodgers have given him just 48 plate appearances, which he’s turned into 10 hits, two walks and an RBI. It’s a cheerless, but common swan song for a beaten down veteran catcher, whose career started right out of high school when the Phillies made him a first-round pick in June of 1990. Should he decide to hang up the cleats after ’07, or should the Dodgers deny his option - which is likely - he’ll still finish with at least 150 homers, 600-plus RBIs and over 1,150 hits, virtually all of it in red pinstripes.

By all accounts, he was popular with teammates, and according to the Inquirer, still keeps close tabs on his ex-team. He does this in spite of the ho-hum farewell he received from fans, and the blunt way in which the team announced he was no longer in their plans beyond '06 (the right decision, no matter how it was handled publicly). Lieberthal’s legacy in Philadelphia is that of an offensive-minded catcher, overshadowed somewhat by his perceived laid-back attitude and the fact the team never reached the post-season during his tenure.

Ironically, his worst statistical season could turn into his best chance at a post-season. Same for Randy Wolf, who turned down a multi-year offer from the Phillies in favor of a one-year tryout with his hometown Dodgers. Although he’s been slowed by soreness in his left shoulder and hasn’t been himself since May, the former Phil was on pace to set a career high in strikeouts before a trip to the DL. He’s expected back at the end of the month. Wolf, who pitched for the Phils from 1999-2006, was an all-star in 2003. Unlike Lieberthal, I would have liked to see him stay in Philadelphia.

Tonight’s matchup: Jamie Moyer (7-7, 4.43 ERA) versus Brad Penny (10-1, 2.39 ERA). Penny’s ERA is third lowest in the NL behind San Diego’s Chris Young and Jake Peavy. The Phillies enter the game 46-45, five back of the division-leading Mets and 3 1/2 back of the second-place Braves. The Dodgers are 52-40 and lead the tough NL West by 1 game over the Padres. In spite of everything, the Phillies are still tied for the best record in the NL since April 21.

Comments

[Ben Keeler]

I think we would all take Lieby over Barajas if that is any consolation to him. Hopefully when the Dodgers come to the Bank in August Lieberthal gets an AB and gets a standing O which he certianly deserves.

[AWH]

I wonder what it would have taken to keep Lieby? Less than the $3mil it's going to cost for Badrajas? Any thoughts?

For that matter, would Wolf have stayed in Philly if they had offered him the same deal they gave Eaton?

Just asking.

[AWH]

To complete the question, what do all you Gillick apologists think of the Badrajas Eaton "upgrade"?

[s97]

Here's a project for next year:

Clear out the "vacant lot" beyond CF and put the whole area including the brick wall in play. It'd put CF at traditional 1960's distances of 420ish, create the "Brick Monster", and thus give the PR department something to use to distract from the upcoming offseason move (free agent Kip Wells: 4 yrs/11M per yr, and no lost draft picks!). No seats would be lost either, so the preservation of capital continues unabated.

Picture: http://www.andrewclem.com/Baseball/CitizensBankPark.html#place

Other than dead center, CPB has similar dimensions to Connie Mack/Shibe which was not described as a bandbox.

It doesn't fix the left field issue, but again it's a perfect distraction, isn't it?

[RSB]

The least they can do is make the fences higher.

[ae]

I'm no fan of Barajas, but he's clearly better than Lieberthal. is he $1.35M better? I'd say so.

Barajas was a bad signing more because Coste could have easily replaced his offense and defense, not because we should've kept Lieberthal.

[joe]

the park ain't the problem, the pitching is.

wolf was offered eaton's money, lieberthal was not.

they wanted to go to the west coast, to be around family.

[Ben Keeler]

ae, wow.

"I'm no fan of Barajas, but he's clearly better than Lieberthal"

I dont think it is that clear.....

[JB]

A's trade Jason Kendall to Cubs tonight, Barajas value has gone up tonight.

Hard to imagine the Cubs paying the remaining $8.4 million on the last year of his contract ($13.4 million this year with Pirates paying $5 million) and supposedly they are receiving a minor-league LH pitcher in return.

[clout]

VOR: What did Padilla do last year? What did the Rangers give up for him? Think about this.

[clout]

s97: Your comment: "Other than dead center, CPB has similar dimensions to Connie Mack/Shibe which was not described as a bandbox" raises a fascinating question. There are many parks with similar dimensions that don't play like CBP. Why? The answer is microclimate. It is why the official NWS temperature at the Phila. airport is always 5 degrees different than anywhere else. There are wind patterns and temperature variations near the river that impact CBP. They had less impact at the Vet because it was enclosed on all sides.
When the articles were written in the first season about why it was such a hitters park, given the dimensions, one of them mentioned these factors, particualrly how it changes in the hot summer months.

[clout]

JB: On the ESPN Cubs broadcast they said the Cubs are paying some of his salary for next year. The A's sent cash in the deal to also pay some. One guy the Cubs gave up, Blevins, is not a prospect. The other guy, Bowen, is a decent backup catcher, but he's a placeholder until Kurt Suzuki is ready. This gives me hope the Phils might get something useful for Barajas.

[Alby]

I dunno, Clout. This is Bowen's third team this year, having been included from San Diego in the Barrett trade. Blevins is a 17th-round pick. How can you see this meaning we might get something better than that for Barajas? Granted, he has better power than Kendall and is owed less money, but doesn't have the game-calling skills.

[ae]

Ben, I think it's about as clear as it gets. Lieberthal's more immobile than Burrell and he's boasting a .222/.271/.244 line. Barajas at least draws a few walks and hits a few HR. given we're talking about two really bad hitters, but Lieberthal has literally nothing left in the tank.

[clout]

Alby: Well, maybe it's wishful thinking, but if Kendall can get a decent backup catcher and organizational filler maybe the Phillies can get a mediocre middle reliever, which would be an upgrade from most of their bullpen arms.

[clout]

Where's billy mac with the lineups tonight?

[kells]

Chase is clutch as usual

[Alby]

Though FTD got plenty of criticism on the last thread for his defense of Gillick -- or rather his attack on those who attack Gillick -- but I wanted to answer something that didn't get much comment: the idea that "Pat Gillick has won a World Series, and you haven't."

I'm flummoxed by that line of reasoning. If that's how you feel, FTD, why visit a blog like this at all? It's one thing to call for patience, but the idea that a GM is beyond criticism because he once won a World Series -- and twice more failed to, it should be noted, and at this stop apparently won't even make the playoffs -- strikes me as bizarre.

[RSB]

I know I always make this point when the Phillies play at LA, but I just have to say that I do not in any way comprehend how people can listen to Vin Scully without wanting to gnaw off their own limbs.

[timr]

I'm only watching on Gameday, but it looks like Moyer is stuggling, huh.

[RSB]

Way to play that carom, Pat.

[attytood will]

Same here, watching Gameday, not looking good for Moyer.

If Moyer is cooked, and he has been mostly unimpressive the last few times out, then what realistic hope do the Phillies have? If the only reliable starters are Hamels and Kendrick, why not start selling off Rowand and the rest, including the league-leading hitter for July.

[John]

Why no Abe tonight?

Also, is it safe to say that Moyer's NL honeymoon is over?

[madubbs]

Oh well, 3-1 with brad penny on the mound...

Good night everyone, work early tomorrow,
if they score more then two against penny i will be thrilled tomorrow...

Maybe when i wake up Mark Cuban will be the owner and we might actually win next year..

[curt]

We're really down to 2 effective starters, neither of whom is shaving yet.

[RSB]

Looks like Moyer forgot to pack his smoke and mirrors for this trip.

Why no Abe is a good question. He used to be an automatic when Moyer started. If Manuel wanted Dobbs in there, he should have put him in LF. But Burrell hit a homer off Penny in 2005, so we can't have that.

[curt]

It's been a week or so - Cholly has forgotten that Nunez is with the team.

[joe]

grr.. if born was in, we would have been out of that with only 1 run.

[RSB]

This is a park where defense really comes into play, and even moreso with Moyer pitching. The Dodgers are going to put the ball in pay. Manuel should have gone with Bourn and Nunez here. It's kind of ridiculous how he'll start Bourn 5 out of 6 games and then turn around and do the same with Burrell. Same with Nunez/Helms. Bourn needs to play. I don't think it's a matter of Burrell being hot and cold so much as Manuel not making up his mind who he wants out there.

[MG]

Burrell is an absolute statue out there. Gets my vote for worst LF in the NL and he definitely would be in the running for the entire MLB.

How can a guy be only 30 and has zero range?

[joe]

ug.

'nite guys.

[RSB]

Can't blame this one on CBP. Moyer has been awful.

[Bridoc10]

Say g'night, Gracie.

10,001 didn't take too long to arrive.

[Reed]

Looks like a picked the wrong day to stop sniffin glue

[curt]

Sure glad Gordon is back.

[J. Slocum]

Moyer is old and didn't get enough sleep with the late fly, looks like it. Mesa will be making an appearance around the 6th. Penny doesn't look as sharp as normal but the defense has been stellar. This dodgers team is going to be good for a long time. I still think the Phillies will score 6 runs tonight but the Dodgers will probably score 9 or 10

[RSB]

Jean-Paul Sartre said, "Hell is other people." Since he isn't alive to hear Vin Scully prattling on endlessly about the Phillies' 10,000 losses with the Dodgers up 6-1 in the third inning, I'd like to suggest a new interpretation of Hell.

[J. Slocum]

Ruiz is struggling, nice to see him snap it here

[RSB]

Can someone find a stat of what percentage of pitches Greg Dobbs swings at with RISP? Has to be at least 90%.

[J. Slocum]

i'd pinch hit for moyer and try and get on the board

[RSB]

Can't believe Manuel is letting Moyer hit here. What the hell do you have 7 relievers for.

[J. Slocum]

big strike zone for Penny, makes it tough.

[Bridoc10]

That made no sense to me, either.

And Moyer didn't even take the bat off his shoulder.

[J. Slocum]

Exactly, why did Moyer hit when you got a bunch of relievers

[Ben Keeler]

Dobbs has really tailed off....cant remember a big hit he has gotten in a long time now.

[bathtubhippo]

well, only 6 runs allowed in 3 innings. moyer has been better than our BP.

[curt]

Cholly would rather lose 6-1, not 12-1.

[slackerjoe]

Horrible decision there.
That was our chance to get back in the game.

[AWH]

ae, not to nitpick, but Bad-rajas is a $1.85 million "upgrade". You have to include the 500k buyout, unless you intend to bring him back next year.

[Bridoc10]

At least Penny has thrown a bunch of pitches...maybe they can get to the LA bullpen?

[Ben Keeler]

At least we know with Durbin pitching tomorrow the bullpen will get used though

[curt]

Somehow, I doubt Wolf & Lieby regret not being a part of all this 1 more time.

[P O'Neil]

Who cares about Barajas? There's bigger problems with this team, than the backup catcher.

[bathtubhippo]

barajas ought to get us a boatload of bluechip prospects, assuming that he is worth his own weight in prospects.

[kells]

Considering the late start yesterday Moyer should have flown out on Saturday. I've done the Philly/LA flight at least 8 times. It takes at least 1 full day to get adjusted.
RSB:At Dodger Statium-I agree that both Nunez & Bourne should be in the lineup. Burrel has hit the ball hard but that 1rst inning single has to be caught by Burrell- even Whells said so. Dodgers have a great lineup & Defense. Pierre & Furcal really took Moyer out of his game.
Mets losing 2-1 Hopefully it stands.
Although I keep trying to stay optimistic-but out starting pitching is atrocious..

[J. Slocum]

Penny is in his grove. See that Burrell at bat. Ugly! never took that bat of his shoulder and all three pitches could have been smacked.

[curt]

I guess Madson & A.A. will finish this one out, right?

[bathtubhippo]

now i just feel bad for the old guy...

[kells]

10-1 game over. Terrible error by Howard.

[J. Slocum]

they know their first ball hitters, throw one out of the strike zone.

Oh god. So many balls we are just missing while so many balls we hit are just gobble up.

Again, first pitch. Freaking throw one out of the zone. Who scouted the hitters. Dubbee stinks - he needs to be jettisoned along with Steve Smith.

[Mike Cunningham]

This one is on Manuel...

10 runs and Moyer is still in this one. Fantastic.

Ridiculous

[davthom73]

P O'Neill -- I'm actually encouraged by your last post -- as your defense of Barajas earlier this season has at least now given way to your current "who cares about Barajas" theme.

But I think you're badly off the mark by looking at the $3-million club commitment to Barajas as being merely a "backup catcher" issue.

To the contrary, Gillick's supposed "upgrade" of the catcher position by signing Barajas has now been revealed to have been a serious misjudgment of player talent -- and a needless waste of the team's financial resources -- money which could well have been used to upgrade the starting and/or relief pitching on the team.

And after that last home run -- the re-signing of Gillick's pal Jamie Moyer doesn't look so great now either.

[bay_area_phan]

O'Neil. Yes, there are bigger problems with this team than Barajas. But Barajas is sort of a microcosm of everything that Gillick has done wrong as a GM. He went out and paid $2.5M for a horribly, over-the-hill catcher that he didn't need because he didn't trust the young guy and because the .330-hitting Chris Coste doesn't have an aesthetically pleasing throwing style.

[RSB]

Charlie, are you sure you want to take Moyer out here? I mean, it's only 10-1. Talk about a quick hook.

[J. Slocum]

how much you want to bet Manuel uses at least 4 pitchers tonight. The game is over. Just throw out Condrey out there for the rest. At least my prediction was right, we would see Mesa in the 6th.

[P O'Neil]

I don't think signing of Barajas was the dumbest thing out there. It made some sense at the time. I care nothing for the guy, either way. This team is floundering and (some) people spend more time debating the backup catcher role It's comical.

[curt]

Tomorrow night's game is not even worth turning on. Gonna be a long week.

[J. Slocum]

Cholly maybe you should have pinch hit. We all saw it Moyer had nothing, the only chance was to out score them. Leyland, Larussa, Pineila, etc. would have all pinch hit there because they want to win. Charlie just doesn't think.

[J. Slocum]

Looks like we'll be sellers by the end of this week. So frustrating! But that is Gillick for not doing anything 3 weeks ago. We have got no shot, time to dump whatever we can. Number one person to dump - Eaton - everybody wants pitching then someone will want this bum.

[Mike Cunningham]

And Moyer is getting no breaks... YOu know he's going to give up the long ball... but you don't put your best defense out there???

But for the most part balls are going to be in play often and you need to have your best defense in, especially when you have the best/2nd best pitcher in the league. You know you aren't going to get a lot of runs to begin with... so speed and defense is going to get you to win the ball game. Ridiculous.

Moyer not flying out is on him. He prefers not to fly out early because he doesn't want to be isolated from the team. Which I appreciate. But on a west coast trip with the mid-to-late game yesterday... he should have been in LA on Sat as someone had mentioned.

[J. Slocum]

unbelievable how big the strike zone is, this should have been great for Moyer but he just didn't pitch a smart game.

The team has quit

[J. Slocum]

Again, the strike zone is huge!

[curt]

Blue wants to go home. Good idea.

[P O'Neil]

Barajas is 31 or 32 and was ok the last 2 years. Prior to this season we had an unproven Ruiz and journeyman catcher/infielder in Coste who's older than Barajas and was less proven. Again, Barajas doesn't do much for me, but gimme a break.

[davthom73]

Could tonight's debacle be the occasion for Chris Coste's first major league pitching appearance?

Coste's AAA pitching stats: record: 1-1; 4.50 ERA, 5 games, 8.0 innings pitched; 5 strikeouts, 2 walks, and a 1.00 WHIP.

link:
http://www.thebaseballcube.com/players/C/Chris-Coste.shtml

[J. Slocum]

the phillies hitters aren't even trying, just like yesterday just swinging away. You can't hit a 9 run homer!

[kells]

Ben:I agree about Dobbs. He has fallen back to earth. I think scouts finally realize that if you don't throw him a fastball he will pop up or strike out.
Ruiz also has been diapointing. I would not be opposed to Coste playing the remainder of the West Coast trip.
Brad Penny=Brett Myers. We miss him badly. If he is not inserted into the rotation eventually the Phills are finished.
Gotta give the Dodgers credit-They have a great team. Their Defense would have made 3 outs the Phills failed to convert.
1)Pop up to Burrel in the 1rst
2)groundouts to Utley(1rst) & Howard.

[J. Slocum]

that's it. I'm turning it off.

[J. Slocum]

kells: you are right about defense. This is a game for Nunez and bourne to be playing. But you need Utley and Howard in there.

[Ben Keeler]

I would pitch Gordon tonight. Anyways, does it seem like everytime the Mets lose, the Phillies do as well?

These are the games I really start to detest Franzke....his comments with LA during blowouts are so hard to listen to.

[bathtubhippo]

i say we let coste and dobbs both take a crack at pitching in the majors tonight. there's still time!

[J. Slocum]

great at bat by Helms...

[Mike Cunningham]

Not defending Helms... but that pitch was unhittable... ridiculous strike zone tonight.

[Whelkman]

bay_area_phan:

Don't forget Coste's aesthetically unpleasing swing. Last season I heard all sorts of nonsense like, "Coste's swing is awful! That guy can't be coached; he's too old!" as he hit a respectable 7 HRs in less than 200 ABs with a batting average of .328. Meanwhile, $500k-per-HR Pat Burrell is repeatedly described as having one of baseball's most beautiful hacks. I guess it's just me, but I'd rather have slugging numbers than a batting stance that looks great on posters.

[bay_area_phan]

For all the talk about Ed Wade's bad contract decisions, at least he overpaid for good players in Thome, Abreu & Burrell. But look at the guys who, thanks to Gillick, are under contract for next year: Moyer, Eaton, and Gordon. That's roughly $20M in wasted salary in 2008 -- and Ed Wade didn't have anything to do with it.

Has anyone else noticed how SirAlden disappears into his hole during these massacres? I didn't see him on the board last night & I haven't seen him yet tonight.

[Whelkman]

P O'Neil:

Barajas' signing would have made sense only were Coste or Ruiz traded for something of value. But, as it stands, we warehoused a dirt cheap major league caliber player when this team screams for resources in other areas.

3B was a position that needed addressing, but not in a kinda-maybe fashion. I think even unknowledgeable fans would appreciate Nunez perhaps platooning with some throwaway stiff if it meant all free funds were diverted to pitching. As it stands, this team needs neither Barajas nor Helms as much as $5 million in additional pitching, though, the way we scout pitchers, I doubt it would be put to good use, anyway.

[Whelkman]

Has anyone else noticed how SirAlden disappears into his hole during these massacres?

I believe they call this the "Larry Bowa tunnel retreat stratagem".

[Whelkman]

bay_area_phan:

Speaking of wastes of cash, don't forget Garcia, unless you're holding out hope that, for once, one of our injured pitchers returns to form before he becomes an all-star for some west coast team.

[RSB]

"Pat Burrell is repeatedly described as having one of baseball's most beautiful hacks."

By who, Pat Burrell's mother? Burrell has one of the butt-ugliest follow-throughs in the majors.

[Whelkman]

Back, in those brief moments, when Burrell performed (comparatively) well, ESPN liked to show his HRs in slo-mo while commenting on his ballerina grace. Even when belting 'em out of the park, Burrell's jerky follow through seemed excessive. But sexy poses sell 8x10s, so what's a stud to do?

[Ben Keeler]

Great start to the trip of death. Comforting knowing Durbin gets the ball tomorrow.

[bay_area_phan]

Whelkman, I was talking about guys who are still under contract for 2008. Horrible as the Garcia acquisition was, at least he's off the books after this year.

[Whelkman]

bay_area_phan, I thought Garcia was extended to '08 but I was incorrect. My bad.

[kells]

My guess is that Gillick fell asleep by the 6th.
I doubt it would have mattered, but as I said earlier tonight-Moyer should have been in LA on Saturday. The last game before the All-Star break was Sunday July 8th.I know he is an old-school & non-selfish player(opposite of Clemens) but why not let let him stay with his family in Seattle then meet the team in LA. Making the trip east made no sense! I doubt his teamates would have cared because he is a class act.

[Ben Keeler]

No I dont think anyone would have cared. Maybe he will be ready for his next start in SD at least.

[MG]

I have to total disagree with everyone on this thread who questioned Cholly for leaving Moyer out there tonight for as long as he did. Sometimes you just have to concede a game in order to better position yourself for victory down the road.

With Durbin starting tomorrow and not having an off day until next Monday, Cholly probably realizes that he is going to have to heavily utilize his pen this week. Moyer is a veteran who painfully took one for the team tonight.

I was also glad to see that Cholly only used Mesa and Romero to close out the game. No sense wasting Madson or Alfonseca in a total route.

For once this season, Cholly finally demonstrated to me that he is actually think a few games ahead instead of only that night's game. I doubt it will last though.

[MG]

People are also making too much of the travel issue with Moyer. Travel alot back and forth between the East and West Coast.

It is always the 2nd day that is the worst, not the first day.

[RSB]

I don't know, MG. That's Brad Penny, and that was their last shot at him. Moyer was not sharp and had already given up 6 runs. It's too early in the ballgame to concede.

[Ben Keeler]

Who knows if he hits for Moyer what would have happened. Helms probably would have just K'd looking or something. They werent going to win tonight. Even if Helms or whoever hits a slam and it is 6-5, tough to see our bullpen holding it so the offense could strike again to take the lead.

Eaton could have PH. That is about all that guy is good for. Oh, and for Pinch running late in games for Burrell at 3rd base against the Mets in June.

[Ben Keeler]

I know "Helms hitting a slam" is obviously absurd, just saying.