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Friday, July 20, 2007

Comments

from last thread: MG, trading Moyer might be a good idea in theory, but I doubt that it has any basis in reality (just like trading Burrell). even if there's no NTC in his contract, you can be sure that there's an informal agreement not to trade him without his express consent.

and as I pointed out before, a guy who's pitched the way Moyer has the last few weeks has no value, even in this trade market.

To follow-up from last thread . . .

Ae: Thanks for the info. about Baseball Prospectus. I wasn't aware that they factored in any kind of roster analysis. I just assumed that their probabilities were based purely on relative position in the standings. I'm usually pretty careful about not making factual assertions unless I'm sure of them, but this time I got lazy.

CJ: I was surprised to see your criticism of Crazy Jon, because I had always sort of assumed that the two of you were the same person.

As for Crazy Jon's suggested roster moves, Costanzo is hitting a robust .242 at Double A, with strikeouts in more than 1/3 of his ABs & a ton of errors. Just what the Phillies need: another rotten fielder who can't put the ball in play. Golson is still young & took a giant step forward this year, but his OBP is still a meager .317 -- and that's only at Single A. And, assuming Romero had any value (which he doesn't), why would you want to trade him? Although he's wild, he has been one of our better bullpen arms since we acquired him.

I think ae is right on Moyer. Additionally... I would assume we wouldn't be moving Moyer without his permission because it could have a damaging impact on our ability to bring in future free agents. You don't want a reputation of treating respected veterans this way. Moyer didn't come to Philly with the expectation that he'd be moving around every year to the next contender on the list.

I like the Phils' chances a lot tonight. For whatever reason, Germano has pitched poorly this year at Petco Park. Plus, it looks like teams are beginning to have more success against him as they have more game film/better scouting reports.

If hitters can get in front of Germano at all in the count, they will do very well except him since he doesn't have a good fastball or an offspeed pitch that hitters have to fear.

As for Eaton, he actually has pretty decent career numbers at Petco. I am not worried about him giving too many walks to a Padres' lineup full of hackers and free-swingers (except for Giles). More worried about Eaton giving up some extra base-hits tonight like he has the past few games.

I call it Phils 5-3 tonight. Key matchups:

1. Rollins/Victorino vs. Germano
2. Eaton vs. large alleyways at Petco

ae - I don't think Moyer has much trade value if any. I would be happy if Gillick would just be able to move his salary at this point.

I'm sure Germano is happy he got waived, he's in a better situation. He should be thanking the Phillies.

This one goes out to all the Eeyores, and Ed Wade lovers, and Pat Gillick haters who have not been able to see what this Hall of Fame GM is up to. Note to RSB: you seem to be coming around.

Here is a post from MG to me in yesterday's Beer nuts: Phillies sign first-round pick Joe Savery thread.
"This one goes out to SirAlden: -Good thing the Phils didn't seem Dotel last offseason. He wouldn't have helped this club or been a useful chip to trade".
So let's take a look at people who would have wanted us to sign Octavio Dotel, and analyize their vitriol towards my giving a balanced voice to the Pat Gillick haters (I often disagree with Pat Gillick but I admire his decision making process).
So sit down in the GM chair – choose to throw GM Pat Gillick out of the window (instead of the gang or seven owners), and ponder the pluses and minuses of signing Octavio Dotel (or any other of the weak group of Free-Agent Reliever in last winter's class).
Your assistant comes in and says "just got off the phone with Octavio Dotel's Agent! And we have him! We have 10 minutes to sign him boss, or he signs with the KC Royals.
"Great work kid! Good job, what is it going to take?" says GM MG
"Well GM MG his agent says we can have him for $10.6 Million Dollars over 2 years. Just say the word and we have him! But hurry! GM MG!"
"OK $10.6 million dollars, do we lose our #1 Draft Pick to the KC Royals? "We are going to Draft someone like this LHP Joe Savery that guy from Rice who was a top 3 pick, but had minor shoulder surgery, we hope he can be a Hamels type pick, remember he was available because he had broken his arm".
"No GM MG he is not a Type A or Type B Free-Agent!"
"Good – Good… let's take a look at his stats….what as his ERA and WHIP last year to merit $10.6 Million Dollars over 2 years? What did he do in 2006?" says GM MG
"Well… not so hot his 2006 ERA 10.80 and his WHIP 2.90."
"How many innings did he pitch?" says GM MG
"He pitched 10 innings last year…"
"OK let's go look on baseball reference and see what they say…"
http://www.baseball-reference.com/d/doteloc01.shtml
"Hmm… he was good in 2004, in 2005 he harmed the Oakland A's pitching for them, lets read the quote…. "The Oakland Committee to Impeach Octavio Dotel has sponsored this page - Our stance is that Octavio Dotel is the worst closer of all time and a disgrace to the Green and Gold. September 23, 2004 - the day the 2004 season really ended for Oakland"

"wow they love him like our fans love Jose Mesa! Well that should not a a problem, Dallas Green has been scouting him, we might sign him next year on the cheap after someone releases him." "so 2004 good, 2005 bad, 2006 10 innings pitched and ERA of 10.80, WHIP of 2.90."says GM MG.
"Ok lets fire up the WAY FORWARD MACHINE shhhh it's a secret lets see Octavio Dotel's stats until the All-Star Break of 2007, what will we get for 2.5 Million Dollars paid out to him for the first half?" says GM MG
"20 innings pitched WHIP 1.40 BA 278 vs. Lefties, and BA 238 vs. Righties, $125,000 dollars per inning pitched. The WAY FORWARD MACHINE sometimes is very inaccurate though…."
"Boss the phone is ringing it's Octavio Dotel's agent. The 10 minutes are up!. What do we do?"
"Sign him! We don't need to amass the payroll flexibility the way Pat Gillick was doing it so that when talents like 3B Miguel Caberra, or Johan Santana when they become available next Fall we will be ready. We are never going to sign them! Our minor leagues suck and we won't have prospects that people will want in trades."
"Wait boss are you sure? Gillick has 4 first round picks in his first two years because he refused to sign half-assed free agents, when Ed Wade had 1 first round pick in the previous three years. Everyone is saying that the Rookie Leagues, Low A Lakewood, High A Clearwater, have league All-Stars on them now, and by August 2007 they will begin to dribble up to AA Reading thanks to Gillick, that guy you threw out the window."
"Nawh… do you know how few minor leaguers ever make it to the show? My decision is final – In with me and my ideas Ed Wade was not all bad, and out with Gillick and his measured delayed gratification, give Octavio Dotel the money, our bullpen really sucks.What's 10.6 Million dollars of others people's money anyway, it's ok if we get like the St. Louis Cardinal's who can't sign anyone because their payroll is all used up for the next 5 years" says GM MG.

I can't decide if SirAlden is mentally ill or just putting all of us on.

sir alden -

that is some mighty fine sh!t that you're smoking. you should share.

Check Eeyore Clout is in the sign Octavio Dotel camp and Ed Wade is cute camp. Check.

Check Eeyore Clout is in the sign Joe Borowski,and lose LHP Joe Savery, and Ed Wade is cute camp. Check.

"Brevity is the soul of wit" - Shakespeare

SirAlden you make me laugh. Hilarious stuff.
Here are a few facts:

1. Dotel has pitched well this year for the Royals
2. Signing Dotel would not have cost the Phils any draft picks
3. Dotel signed a 1-year deal at $5 million. He does have a player option at $5.5 million for next season but the Phils could have voided it.
4. Signing Dotel had nothing to do with signing Savery. The two events are totally unrelated.

Summary: Phils could have taken a 1-year flier on a relief pitcher with tremendous upside who wouldn't have cost them a draft pick or been on the payroll beyond '07.

So basically it came down to the Phils pocketing extra money and bring in crap like Mesa.

Counter to what you say Sir Alden, you hero Gillick has behaved a lot more like Ed Wade than you would care to admit, especially if he makes a few desperate trades this year in an attempt to make the playoffs.

if nothing else, i am really impressed with siralden's tenacity.

I'm certainly not in the Sir Alden camp when it comes to Gillick's handling of our bullpen (which was a miserable failure)... but I would not have advocated bringing in Octavio Dotel going into this season and I can't imagine there was a lot of support for it.

In 2005, Dotel blew 4 of 11 saves before shutting down for the season. In late 2006, he managed a 10.80 ERA in 10 innings after returning from injury. That's a 6.39 ERA in the 25.1 innings he pitched over two seasons for a 33 year old reliever. There were better missed opportunities than Octavio Dotel that don't require 20/20 hindsight.

"But years of forfeiting draft picks for signing high-priced free agents like Jim Thome, David Bell and Jon Lieber left the Phillies with fewer picks in the top three rounds than any other team from 2000 through 2004. Thus, the farm system is bereft of major-league-ready prospects at the highest levels, hamstringing the Phillies in their search for pitching help.'

http://www.delawareonline.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20070720/SPORTS01/707200382/1002/sports

SirAlden: You do realize that the land mines left in front of Pat Gillick by previous GMs does not excuse his complete carelessness in addressing the problems with our bullpen, right?

We all agree that Ed Wade sucked. We all agree that he made mistakes that will haunt us for years... but Pat Gillick has failed us as well.

1) The only move he made in the offseason was to sign Antonio Alfonseca. It's a move that turned out okay, but it's clear that wasn't enough.

2) Pat Gillick miscalculated the market when he traded for Freddy Garcia. First, he left us with damaged property and second, Gillick beleived he could trade Jon Lieber for bullpen help. It was a miscalculation that has cost us dearly... in more ways than one. It became a domino effect that hurt every part of our pitching staff. Gillick was wrong. He failed us.

Now it's up to him to correct it. Let's see if he can find that magic that helped him turn his past teams into playoff teams. I'm still waiting...

SirAlden: I listed more than 30 relievers who either changed teams in the offseason via trades or waiver moves or were free agents and thus available to the highest bidder. Any one of those relievers, including Dotel, would have made a difference in some of the 15 or 16 games the bullpen has blown this year. Only a tiny handful of them would've caused the loss of a draft pick.

These facts, as well as those posted by MG, are real. You don't acknowledge them, you pretend they don't exist, but, nevertheless, they are real.

clout: I'm curious... based on Dotel's resume, were you an advocate of adding him to our bullpen before the season? It's easy to say he could have helped us now... but it was a scary prospect based on his last two years and his injury.

CJ: Dotel was hurt in 05 and 06. Do good pitchers ever hurt their arms, have surgery and then return to previous form?

The Phillies problems are not ALL about draft picks.. How about all the $$$ they're NOT spending in Asia, the Dominican Republic,or on the teams they DO own. Going cheap on scouting (Arse-buckle)plays just a big a role as expensive type A free agents.. The Phils have a 95 million dollar payroll... They'd be better off spending SOME of that on development

clout: Fair enough. Although he was bad before he got hurt in 2005 which means we would have go back to 2004 for evidence he could help this bullpen. Even Alfonseca had a good year in 2004 and his signing was accompanied by a great deal of horror! :-)

Given up on by the Reds, Germano in his last three starts is 1-2 with a 6.35 ERA.

He was never able to relieve in the minors, and when the Phillies tried to sneek him through waivers they had 6 Starters in front of him, and the Phillies were higher on Kendrick, A.J. Happ, and J.D. Durbin.

Here is hoping that for Germano's family he has a Hall of Fame Career with pin-point control. In the minors he was servicable but never lights out.

Shane Victorino was lost and not taken back by the Dodgers in the Rule 5 Draft, franchises make mistakes, but when you must look at the snap shot of what was happening at the moment of the decision, and cross reference it against LONG TERM performance.

Until Victorino met Davey Lopes and learned how to steal he was not a sure thing. He is a sure thing in CF and the jury is out on his production as a right fielder.

SirAlden:

I hear what you're saying on Germano... but why not send down other marginal pitchers who had options but were kept on our active roster? It's not like many of them had earned their roles.

July 19th - Phillies inked Dominican shortstop Carlos Valenzuela, paying him a reported bonus of $200,000

Not to revive what's hopefully a dead topic, but I really doubt, davthom, that Gillick has some kind of grudge against all non-Gillick players.... probably nearly half of our roster (and all the marquee names) are "non-Gillick players"... so why should Gillick resent Coste in particular? Because he's "cynical" and doesn't like the fact that Coste got married on the field? That seems ludicrous. Perhaps Manuel played Ruiz those games to help him work out of his slump.

Let me say this. I think losing Germano was a bad thing. But could anyone have foreseen keeping him on the 25 man roster in the bullpen, which is where he would have to have been for the rest of his Phillies Career? Not just 2007, but 2008 and beyond.

Even Geary has some options left.

SirAlden:

Ok, you win. There's no way I can ever respond to everything you just wrote so, instead, I offer a concession. You're right. Gillick's a genius. He's the greatest GM any professional sprots team has ever seen. Before his career is over, he'll not only lead this team to 3 World Series titles, but he'll also cure cancer, end hunger, and bring lasting peace to the middle east. You have been right all along and the rest of us are just a bunch of numskulls.

Clout we are only talking about Octavio Dotel here.

I have continual proven your 30 pitcher list to be bogus.

Name one pitcher the Phillies should have signed, that wanted to sign here that we did not try to sign.

Then name one trade we should have made and show me the talent we could have included that would have been better than what the team accepted for that pitcher.

Until then Eeyore Clout. "You are the WEAKEST LINK!"

SirAlden: You need to go back and read the posts I made about Germano when we traded for him and the posts I wrote when they cut him, keeping inferior pitchers on the active roster.

Germano was a very good back of rotation prospect, better than Kendrick and way, way better than Sanches, Segovia, Matt Smith etc. etc. This was not a secret and just a little bit of research reveals this.
In any event, losing Germano does not even rank in the top 5 of bad Gillick personnel decisions.

Bay...Pat Gillick is GM ing like a grown up.

Are you in the should have signed Octavio Dotel camp?

Bay are in you in the sign Joe Borowski,and lose LHP Joe Savery, and Ed Wade is cute camp?

SirAlden: Joe Borowski?

I'm confused... signing Joe Borowski would have cost the Phillies their #1 pick?

SirAlden: There's MORE THAN 30 pitchers they could've dealt for, signed, claimed on waivers! Dotel just happens to be one of them. Wow, are you an idiot.

Germano was never a reliever ever.

SirAlden: Joe Borowski leads the AL in saves. But, no, he couldn't have helped this team. I really hate to see someone make such a fool of themselves.

SirAlden, I'll thank you not to defame me by insinuating that I'm 'coming around' to any sort of even moderate agreement with you. You are unobjective, ill-informed, and a waste of everyone's time.

Dotel is doing well now, but didn't he miss the first month and a half of the season? He would've been a very risky signing. With his risk and $$, this team (Gillick or Wade or whoever) wouldn't go near that. We can be disappointed about not getting him, but it makes a little sense.

Yes signing Joe Borowski would have cost the Phillies their #1 pick LHP Joe Savery.

Was a Type A Free Agent.

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?p=1343042

Everyone raise you hand if you think we should have done this.

Let's see...
Eeyore Clout
Eeyore bay_area_phan
Eeyore MG

hope you don't mind if I put this here:

Hey guys and gals, I'm going to give a Wheels T-Shirt to the person that is the closest(over or under) to guessing how many times that Chris Wheeler will mention the size of Petco Park during the 3 games left with the Padres. Entries will be accepted up until midnight tonight.

don't put your email in here, just put your guess in the comments section on my blog

That's funny, Alden. The Indians signed Borowski, and they sure as hell had a first round draft pick. Oh, but what are facts to you.

SirAlden: I'm in the "They should have signed a few relievers" camp. It did not have to be Joe Borowski and, in fact, I've gone on record several times on Beerleaguer, saying that, based on the medical information they claimed to have, they were probably right to pass on Borowski.

As for Joe Savery, would it be fair to wait until he actually pitches a game or two before you start holding it up as some sort of coup? His college numbers were good but hardly earth-shattering and, when I watched him pitch in the college WS, he got lit up pretty good & seemed to have very ordinary stuff.

Sir Alden.. I'd just like to say your original short story of a post absolutely ridiculous but fantastically entertaining. Are you a 12 year old kid or 90 and senile? I guess we'll never know.

Also, I have no problem with the Phillies not wanting to take a chance on someone like Dotel(the crapshoot theorem). And I've always felt Clout's list isn't very informative in that it ignores a lot of the realities of the situation(what were we gonna trade for some of those guys, who actually woulda signed here, maybe the investment didn't make sense since alot were hit or miss). But I am open to arguments either way.

And finally.. it's a moot point. We HAD Borowski signed, and for not that crazy of an investment. But for some unknown reason he is the only guy we've ever decided to actually do a physical on. Unlike Dotel, he proved himself LAST year. And any concerns we had we could've handled better, and maybe salvaged a one year deal with him.

SirAlden: Here's a challenge for you, and a relatively simple one. Name one move by Pat Gillick that you think was a bad move, and do it in 5 words or less.

I impose the word limit because, literally every time you've ever hinted that a Gillick move didn't turn out so well, you've immediately followed up with a string of caveats. With a 5-word limit, you've got enough words to identify the bad move (i.e., "the Barajas signing;" "the Abreu trade;" "the Freddy Garcia fiasco"), but not enough to add a caveat.

To show my objectivity on the subject, I will begin the exercise by naming one GOOD Pat Gillick move in 5 words or less: the Jamie Moyer trade. There. Now it's your turn.

RSB: I did some checking...

"A team losing a Type A free agent gets the first-round pick of the team that signs the player, as well as a supplemental pick. A team losing a Type B free agent receives only the signing team's top pick. In both cases, a team selecting in the top half of the draft rotation cannot lose its first-round pick. The loss of a Type C free agent provides a team a pick between the second and third rounds."

the Indians didn't lose a pick for Borowski because they chose 13th; the top 15 picks are automatically protected.

ah, or what CJ just posted.

Sir Alden: As you worship Gillick for his strategy and call everyone stupid for wanting to sacrifice the pick that brought us the great Joe Savery, you ignore one thing. GILLICK HIMSELF was willing to give up his first round pick to get Borowski. If it weren't for medical reports that haven't proven worth a darn yet, then you'd only have our supplemental pick to worship. What do you say to that???

(haha, i've done it, i've outsmarted a 12 year old)

The Indians signed Borowski, Fultz, and Dellucci - all type A free agents. They did not lose a type A free agent to another team. Yet they retained the rights to their first round pick in '07.

ae: okay, I didn't see your post until after it was too late.

Ae beat me to the punch. The other thing is that you only get the compensatory draft pick if you offer salary arbitration to the player & he declines (remember the whole Placido Polanco episode, where Ed Wade offered him arbitration, expecting him to decline, and he accepted?). The Marlins did not offer Borowski salary arbitration so, if I understand the rule correctly, we could have had both Borowski and the pick that became Joe Savery.

That's a good point, Brian. It's kind of like when he lauds Gillick for not giving out mega-contracts, then turns around and lauds him for trying to give a mega-contract to Soriano, then finally lauds him for deciding NOT to give a mega-contract to Soriano.

BAP: I saw someone else mention that, but I haven't been able to find anything to suggest arbitration is necessary. I'll keep looking.

ae: you mentioned a thread ago about arbitration after 6 years. My understanding is that the team still offers it and anyone can still accept arbitration, they just often don't bc they can get more money long term on the open market. But the team does need to at least offer it if it wants the draft pick compensation. Before six years the player HAS to accept it, but afterwards they only sometimes do (unexpectedly with Polanco and Millwood).

According to this website, the Florida Marlins received NO compensation for losing Joe Borowski. Not even a sandwich pick.

That must mean signing Borowski would not have cost the Phillies Savery.

Your response, SirAlden?

http://philadelphia.phillies.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061202&content_id=1749466&vkey=news_phi&fext=.jsp&c_id=phi


This is from the Phillie' website, back when they offered arbitration to Dellucci. It kind of explains the process. I assume it's accurate.


Read Carefully:

IF THE PHILLIES SIGNED Joe Borowski because they were drafting in the second half of the first round they would have lost their 1st round pick used for LHP Joe Savery.

If a team loses a Type A free agent, then they get a conditional first-round pick from the signing team plus a supplemental first-round pick. Here's what the "conditional" part means: if the signing team drafts in the second half of the first round, then the team losing the player gets their first-round pick, but if the signing team drafts in the first half of the first round, then the team losing the player gets their second-round pick.

Because Cleveland was in the first half of the first round they lost their second round pick. Now it gets tricker, one team cannot lose multiple picks the pick goes for the highest rated Type A player, in this case the team getting the Indians 2nd Round pick was the New York Mets (from Indians for type A Hernandez)since Borowski was rated lower the Florida got screwed.

The same thing happened to us we got Pick 37 in the supplimental draft - Philadelphia Phillies (for type A Dellucci) and 107. Philadelphia Phillies (from Indians for type A Dellucci).

If the Indians had picked from 16-30 in the draft we would have gotten their first round pick.

Because the Indian's signed multiple TYPE A Free Agents from the same team, we got screwed as Florida was with Borowski, and got nadda for losing Fultz.

IF THE PHILLIES SIGNED Joe Borowski because they were drafting in the second half of the first round they would have lost their 1st round pick used for LHP Joe Savery.

Yes signing Joe Borowski would have cost the Phillies their #1 pick LHP Joe Savery.

Was a Type A Free Agent.

http://www.sportingnews.com/yourturn/viewtopic.php?p=1343042

Everyone raise you hand if you think we should have done this.

Let's see...
Eeyore Clout
Eeyore bay_area_phan
Eeyore MG
Eeyore RSB

Clout

Name one pitcher the Phillies should have signed, that wanted to sign here that we did not try to sign.

Then name one trade we should have made and show me the talent we could have included that would have been better than what the team accepted for that pitcher.

Brian - I think you're right; all those salary rules do my head in, but on second glance it looks like they would have to offer Rowand arb to get a compensation pick.

I still have a hard time believing that it would be an issue or that the Phils wouldn't make a token offer. (the Polanco situation was a complete fluke, it's just not relevant.)

SirAlden,

You're wrong. The article doesn't say anything about Borowski. It says, with regard to Dellucci, "Because they offered [arbitration], the Phillies will receive draft-pick compensation from the Indians." You only have to give up a draft pick if you offered the guy salary arbitration. The Marlins did not offer Borowski arbitration, so the Indians didn't have to give up any draft picks to sign him. Here's the article.

http://indians.mlb.com/news/article.jsp?ymd=20061204&content_id=1749984&vkey=hotstove2006&fext=.jsp

RSB "That's funny, Alden. The Indians signed Borowski, and they sure as hell had a first round draft pick. Oh, but what are facts to you."

Read the above post Eeyore.

IF THE PHILLIES SIGNED Joe Borowski because they were drafting in the second half of the first round they would have lost their 1st round pick used for LHP Joe Savery.

Alden: The Marlins did not offer arbitration to Borowski, meaning that the team which signed him did not have to surrender the first-round draft pick. Pretty important detail you seem to have glossed over there.

Not offering rowand arbitration would be momentally idiotic. Even if we didn't want him for the low risk of one year, as it has been mentioned, we could trade him.. anyway, that's why we will def offer it to him.

Or monumentally idiotic... maybe both.

What is this damn fascination with reciting Eeyore over and over again?? It's damn near sickening, like some kind of bizarre fantasy...

Anyway, the Phils really need to take this one tonight. Actually, tonight and tomorrow are pretty much "must wins" right now, cause nothing is guaranteed when the Phils play the lowly Nats and Bucs next week.

Lohse just gave up 7 to the Fish in 6+. Is this really the pitcher y'all want Gillick to give up Bourn for?

Alden, consider yourself to be the Pete Rose of Beerleaguer. People would regard you more respectfully and seriously if you could say even once, that you might have been wrong.

Well, 7 runs in 6 innings sounds like an improvement over Adam Eaton.

Can't believe Hagen endorsed trading Bourn. What's he looking at here that I can't see?

Curt: For what it's worth, Lohse has been awful against the NL East this season. He was also lit up in three straight starts against the AL West. Tonight's line included three unearned runs, by the way, as well as home runs by Cabrera and Uggla, and a two-run double after Lohse's own throwing error. He is what he is, but I don't see anything better available out there.

RSB: He sees a guy who has trouble getting around on the fastball and swings like Bake McBride (who, it should be said, stuck around a long time despite a swing ling a rusty gate). That said, I'd keep him unless a much better pitcher than Kyle Lohse was available (someone on the Bronson Arroyo level, for example).

Before all of this everyone-against-Sir-Alden thing started, some people at the beginning of this thread suggested trading away Moyer - that would be a horrible idea on many fronts. First and foremost is what he brings to the table as mentor for Hamels, Kendrick, and Myers. Maybe at this point in his career he should be a fifth starter, but the issue is that he is mismanaged by Manuel and Dubee and good for a solid 5-6 innings every time out, just not still good in the 7th as they seem to think. As well, having also been a fan of the Portland Trailblazers in my life - you can not count the value of high character guys on a franchise - they bring everyone up with them.

man, i love jroll, but it really seems like he is trying too hard to hit for power again...

Typical Whells:Toeing the company line & defending Gillick screwing up the Germano transactions. Phills really needed condrey on the roster.
I do think the Phills will roll tonight.
Tis the only park in baseball that contains Eaton's pitching.

Also on the pitching front - during the Cubs-Giants broadcast yesterday they had a graphic showing the winningest pitching duos in the major leagues this season - low and behold who was in 3rd place - Cole Hamels and Adam Eaton with 19 - the Cubs announcers were shocked that the highly-criticized Phillies rotation had such a good duo. It just goes to show that all that ultimately matters is wins, so here's hoping the Phillies score at least 6 and get Eaton to #9.

Did I see a reference somewhere to SirAlden being a law student? One shudders to think. The quality of his reasoning, his rhetoric and his grasp of the facts all leave much to be desired.

You are wrong, Sir, about Borowski; if no arbitration was offered, no compensation was required. If it were possible, I would trade Savery for Borowski right now. Draft picks, however, cannot be traded until a year after they sign.

You are also wrong about the Phillies preferring Durbin over Germano. Germano was claimed by the Padres March 19 off waivers. Durbin was claimed by the Phillies April 13 off waivers.

I still don't understand why you pitch to Howard with RISP/2 outs. Rowand is a far less dangerous hitter, it's a far more favorable right/right matchup, and it sets up a force.

agreed, verdeforce. here's hoping the good guys' bats getting the best of the night, while eaton gives up his textbook six...

I went back and checked the rule and both things are true: You lose your first rounder by signing a Type A free agent only if your pick is 16th or higher. SirAlden is correct on that.

It is also true that if a free agent's previous team does not offer arbitration, that team is NOT entitled to compensation. Several posters have said that the Marlins did NOT offer arbitration to Borowski. If that is true (and I didn't research who the Marlins offered arb) then he wouldn't have cost any team a #1 draft pick, including the Phillies. Which makes SirArlen wrong. Yet again.

This is going to be a long night if Eaton doesn't stop bouncing that breaking ball.

that is one of those little things these guys have been missing..

Barajas didn't flinch. Amazing.

Great job by Eaton on that pickoff.

and just like that, they make it back up. i feel so stupid cause bad start after bad start, i always think there is some hope with eaton. i wish he would just stay focused for a game...

Germano doing a good job of working the corners, low in the zone, mixing in curve and change with his not-so-fastball and working quickly to keep hitters off balance.

Just for the record, even Bourn wouldn't have reached either of those doubles to left field.

Helms playing thirdbase reminds me of the dancing Hippos in Fantasia.

cb: Just imagine how Eaton's managers have felt over the years. They see the 93 mph fastball and the killer curve and the maddening inconsistency and the fat pitches belt-high middle-in.

I've been reading the Alden posts for the past couple of wks about Borowski wondering when someone was going to figure out the arbitration thing. It was just to fun to watch. I do remember that Dotel wanted to go to a team where he would be the closer. So I don't think the Phils had much of a chance at signing him. If we don't keep Myers in the pen next season getting a solid closer has to be our #1 off season move. The Germano move was really bad. Not because anyone thought he would be this consistant. But because of the players that were kept who had options. Just poor roster management by our "Adult" GM.

Homeplate ump is brutal tonight.

Memo to Eaton: Throw strikes. Please.

Typical Eaton. Gets ahead of Bradley 0-2 and gives up hit.

Nice defense on the left side tonight, eh?

With Eaton's alleged "great stuff", how come batters contact everything he throws ?

puzzling, clout. just when you think eaton may have started to figure things out, he implodes. same story each game. i don't get it. someone was saying something about his arm dropping. i just don't understand it other than the fact that he must just stink...

That "hit" by Bradley is a double-play ball if Nunez is in there.

Well, there's one we'll be seeing on the blooper reels for a decade.

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EST. 2005

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