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Sunday, July 15, 2007

Comments

clout, I'm reposting your comment from the previous thread because I think it's important enough to have the Gillick psycophants on this site see it again:


AWH: The time for bullpen help was long before Percival. It was in the offseason. Here's some of the more than 30 relievers who changed teams or were free agents:

Brian Bruney, Joe Borowski, Bob Wickman, Rafael Soriano, Eric Gagne, Ron Villone, Jon Coutlangus, Chad Bradford, Rudy Seanez, Hideki Okajima, Kyle Snyder, Brendan Donnelly, David Weathers, Aaron Fultz, Justin Miller, Kevin Gregg, David Riske, Justin Speier, Octavio Dotel, Chin-Hui Tsao, Ambiorix Burgos, Lenny DiNardo, Heath Bell, Russ Springer, Ryan Franklin, Al Reyes, Jesus Colome."


That done, we don't disagree. My point was simply if this team was really concerned about winning instead of putting fannies in the seats, they would have found some way to bring in Percival at this point, as the bullpen is in desperate need of help.

I think they're too concerned about 'paying above slot' for someone like Percival. They don't want to tick off the powers that be at MLB.

That, and they're just plain cheap.

I read the yankees are interested in Barajas!!! Yippee, yay! Dump this bum! The link is broken into three so cut and paste back together:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/07152007
/sports/boras_taking_a_rod_into_
tratosphere_sports_joel_sherman.htm

How about Barajas for A-Rod and Mariano Rivera?

My opinion is that there just is not a lot of pitching out there in Free Agency that 1) is really available and will prefer to sign in Philly and 2) is going to make an impact and be successful over the length of the expected contract and worth losing a top draft pick.

Here is a list from http://www.mlbtraderumors.com/2007/03/2008_mlb_free_a.html for this upcoming Winter.

Lets take a look before the Eeyores start whining that Pat Gillick isn't working hard enough to sign pitching or trading for pitchers in their walk years before the trade deadline (even though the Phillies upper minors AAA and AA are basically bare of top prospects to trade for them because the previous management GM Wade and ownership Mongomery had a philosophy which for years did not value and therefore lost top draft picks). Please note that our rookie leagues and low minors, low A and high A, are now strong thanks to Pat Gillick's philosophy that both being an adult and having long term success lies in understanding that instant gratification is a disease.

http://phuturephillies.com/ and http://www.philliesdraft.com/DraftReports/DraftReportsYearByYear.html

Here is the list from mlbtrade rumors:

Starting pitchers: (28) Carlos Zambrano (27), Curt Schilling (41), Jason Jennings (29), Freddy Garcia (32), Kenny Rogers (43), Jon Lieber (38), Bartolo Colon (35), Joe Kennedy (29), Tomo Ohka (32), John Thomson (34), Kip Wells (31) ,Wade Miller (31)
Livan Hernandez (33+ lol), Randy Wolf (31) $9MM club option for '08, Paul Byrd (37) - $8MM club option for '08, Jeff Weaver (31), Tom Glavine (42) - $9MM player option for '08, Kris Benson (33) - $7.5MM club option for '08, Jaret Wright (32), David Wells (45), Eric Milton (32), Kyle Lohse (29), Matt Clement (33), Rodrigo Lopez (32), Josh Fogg (31), Byung-Hyun Kim (29), Odalis Perez (31) - $9MM club option for '08, and Brett Tomko (35) - $4.5MM mutual option for '08.

Relievers (10) Closers: Mariano Rivera (38), Jason Isringhausen (35) - $8MM club option for '08 , Bob Wickman (39), Francisco Cordero (33), Armando Benitez (35), Eric Gagne (32), Todd Jones (40). Middle Relievers: Scott Linebrink (31), Jorge Julio (29), Kerry Wood (31).

So who meets your criteria for 1) and 2)? Please feel free to agree to add or subtract, and agree to disagree with my list.

Here is my list: Starting pitchers: Carlos Zambrano (27), Curt Schilling (41), Freddy Garcia (32). Closers: Francisco Cordero (33), Eric Gagne (32) Middle Reliever: Scott Linebrink (31).

So of the (38) pitchers (28+10) My list contains only six (6) names, and remember that all 30 Clubs in MLB will be competing for them..
Carlos Zambrano (27) Is the only real star, will get a 175+ Million Dollar Contract, everyone will be going for him, I hope we get him. Almost impossible.

Curt Schilling (41) A marginal Hall of Fame candidate who blew his arm out for us, to get us past the hated Atlanta Braves and into the World Series, he was with the Phillies for 8.5 of his seasons and could go into the Hall as a Phillie if he returned and helped us to the World Series. He wanted to return 4 years ago. Myers was begging for his idol to come mentor him, but Wade/Montgomery were not interested in seeing Schilling quotes tearing them apart daily in the Inquirer. A real sleeper because of Shilling's Ego.

Freddy Garcia (32) Garcia was craved by the Phillies going back to his days with Seattle when Pat Gillick was his GM . Here's hoping his injury does not prove to be career ending, and we resign him.

Francisco Cordero (33), a 1.35 WHIP Type Reliever, Washington wants to trade him and is playing chicken waiting for the best prospect.

Eric Gagne (32), a great reliever, the only human to ever have 2 Tommy John Surgeries, had two compressed disks in his back last year allowing him to pitched a total of 2 innings for the Dodgers before getting a one year 6 million dollar contract with the Rangers. He is reportedly on the way back to LA where he has always pitched until this year.

Scott Linebrink (31) A great set-up reliever working in the largest ballpark in baseball. Has been with the Padres for 4.5 years. The Padres would not trade him for Rowand in the off-season, why would they now? They want to sign both Linebrink and Rowand this fall. Wouldn't you?

There just is not a lot of pitching out there in Free Agency. Pitching in last decade has become the rarest of commodities. Refusing to sign trash is wise, even if everyone just wants you to do something! Building within your own farm system is best. We could sure use at least one of these starters and one of these relievers, if we were able to do that we would be signing 33% of all the decent talent while the other 29 teams fought for the other 4 guys. Not easy. If we pull that off it will be a great.

Who would you add to this list and why?

~ sometimes the things you don't do are the best decisions you will ever make ~


what a ridiculous reliever carousel we have going on here, and all for the right to be jose mesa's caddy.

SirAlden
Nedlaris
larisden
magpsden
Paldgsir
PGaldesi
Pgildesi
PGillesi
PGillisi
PGillici
PGillick

Oops. there goes that decryption software again!

I like how Alden can't tell the difference between Francisco Cordero and Chad Cordero.

priceless.

If the Phils can manage to get rid of Rod Barajas without eating his entire salary and get minor league fodder to boot, that'd be a miracle.

Gavin Eaton, oops I mean Adamn Eaton needs to shut down the Cards today...get as far above .500 as possible.

SirAlden, Glad to see you're already laying the ground work for your Gillick apology posts of 2008.

I have to say that, in a way, this is your most bizarre post to date. We just got done playing the All Star Game and you already know where all the marquee free agents are headed next off-season & you also know that none of them want to play for the Phillies. But the single most bizarre part of your post is that you think we should resign Freddy Garcia. Besides being bizarre, this is yet another example of your inconsistency. How many times this year have you told us that the Phillies were right not to go after a particular relief pitcher because he was coming off an injury? Yet now you want us to resign our injured starter who won all of 1 game for us this year & had a 5.90 ERA?

I really hope that some day we get a post from you which says, "Joke's over, guys. I've just been yanking all of your chains for the last 2 seasons." If you are serious in these posts, then I have serious concerns about the state of your mental health.

yep, Eaton does need to get them a win tonight headed into what I think is the week that will determine if this team makes a run for it - next week 3 in LA and 4 in SD. If they could somehow comeback 4-3 from that trip, I think I would get my hopes up too high.

HA.....and yeah, anyone saying we should resign Freddy Garcia should have their ISP address banned.

Slocum, thanks for the link!

I would like to point out one thing in
Sherman's article that was very very disturbing to me:


"July 15, 2007 -- No other player has a multi-year contract that averages better than $20 million except for Alex Rodriguez, whose 10-year deal is worth $25.2 million on average annually. Yet, it has become all but accepted fact that when Rodriguez decides his contractual fate this offseason by either extending his deal with the Yanks or opting out to go elsewhere, that he will average $30 million a year or more. And one AL executive knows why.

“Scott Boras is so brilliant,” the executive said. “He is willing to put out a number that is absurd and stick with it, and wait until others come to his level. No other player besides A-Rod is in the 20s and now he is asking for something in the 30s. That is $10 million more than anyone besides A-Rod has gotten. This is the same negotiating tactic [by Boras] as always and it is brilliant. In a way, he is teaching everyone to become comfortable with the $30 million number to the point where no one even blinks any more. Brilliant.” "


If A-Rod, at the age of 32, gets $30MM/yr., how much will Ryan Howard get assuming he continues to produce the way he has? He won't get A-Rod type money, but will this Phillies ownership group even be competetive?

I'll give credit where it's due, because if A-rod gets that type of money, Chase Utley's contract is utter highway robbery as far as managemnt is concerned.

But, this does not bode well for the team's overall competetivennes in the future.

Will they be able to afford Cole Hamels if he stays healthy, and #6?

The other thing this says to me is that they won't be resigning Aaron Rowand, so enjoy his play while he's still here.

AWH: This is why it is imperative for the Phillies to pull out all the stops when they have a chance to win. It could be many years before that chance comes again. The odds of this core of young star players staying together here when they reach their free agency years is slim and none.

Forgive my departure from the topic of today's game, but I was in my neighborhood supermarket in Brooklyn yesterday, and as I was walking by the ice cream, I noticed for the first time that they carry Phillies Graham Slam. This is rather funny because my neighborhood is all Puerto Rican and all Mets territory.

When I saw the ice cream though, and later as I watched the game on MLBTV, I remembered how much I miss having Scott Graham in the booth. The guy had the rich timbre of an old timer and the enthusiasm of a genuine lover of the game. It was truly sad to see him go this year--one of the off-season's lowlights that should have foreshadowed the frustrations that would come, with both the broadcasting team and the team wearing pinstripes.

As long as he's broadcasting, I'll never get sick of listening to Harry, but he's not going to be around forever, and I thought the barely-40 year old Graham was the future voice of the Phightins.

Supposedly he still lives in South Jersey, and he seemed genuinely crushed to be let go. I can't imagine the current Harry/Sarge Franzke/LA shuffle forming into a permanent cohesive broadcasting lineup. Is it possible that the Phils might sign Graham back in the next few years? He still hasn't found a full-time job as far as I know.

If that's the case and the Yankees want Barajas, how about getting something for him besides payroll relief? The Yankees need him, and the move would leave the Phillies short on pitching depth. This shouldn't be treated like a dump.

not to denigrate Howard, but nobody in baseball's going to give him even $20M a year when he hits free agency. he'll be what, 29? 30?, every GM in baseball knows that his player type does not age well, and he's just not that versatile.

comparing him to a guy like Rodriguez, who's easily the best position player in baseball, is a joke.

too bad the yankees don't have a surplus of bullpen arms

ae, no one compared him to A-Rod. Can you read?

clout, we agree that there should be more urgency from ownership. Sadly, as I and many others including you have posted, this ownership group is content to be "competetive", whatever that is.

MLB did not do the Phils any favors by moving this game until 6pm. The Phils have a 5 hour flight to LA after the game to begin a week long west coast swing.

Jason: In theory, I agree with you. But it's hard for me we to believe that Rod Barajas would command anything more than the type of minor league roster filller that Gillick got in all of last year's mid-season trades. It would be difficult to characterize such a trade as anything other than a salary dump.

However, there are pure salary dumps & then there are roster-clearing dumps, which make room for a superior player. A trade of Barajas would fall into the latter category. For that reason, I'd be all for it, even if we got nothing in return.

The actual relevant excerpt from Joel Sherman's "Hardball" column piece in today's New York Post, as referenced by J. Slocum above, went this way:

"If the Yankees make trades this month, they plan on using their veteran relievers and/or lesser prospects (think Matt DeSalvo) to try and make incremental upgrades at backup catcher, first base and their bench. They believe that free-agents-to-be such as Mike Myers and Luis Vizcaino could be replaced adequately by Triple-A options such as Sean Henn and Chris Britton, and that eventually Jeff Karstens and/or prospects Joba Chamberlain and Ross Ohlendorf could be moved from the rotation to the pen. A trade of Myers or Vizcaino to the pen-hungry Phillies for another free-agent-to-be, backup catcher Rod Barajas, fits the current Yankees thinking."

link:

http://www.nypost.com/seven/07152007/sports/boras_taking_a_rod_into_tratosphere_sports_joel_sherman.htm

I could live with either of those guys for Barajas. We might even be able to sign the guy for next year.

JW: I would take Cory Lidle's ashes for Barajas. He's hurting the team by even being here.

AWH - yes, I can. thanks.

ae, then please show us where anyone made a direct comparison of Howard to ARod?

AWH, bad day?

One reason (although not a justifiable one) why Rod Barajas has shown so little desire to play aggressively for the Phillies this season can be found in Barajas' red-faced FA signing circumstances, as recounted in the following excerpt from a December 24, 2006, New York Daily News article which I just ran across:

"For all the foolhardy deals being made by baseball owners, there always seems to be at least one flip side each winter in which a player grossly miscalculates his value. . . . (T)his winter's biggest blunder (involved) free-agent catcher, Rod Barajas. The 31-year-old Barajas hit .256 with 11 homers in 344 at-bats for the Rangers last season and, as a first-time free agent, instructed his agent, Gregg Clifton, to get him the best payday he could - as a starting catcher on a team with a legitimate chance to win. Clifton obliged by bagging a two-year, $5.25 million deal from the Blue Jays that included an additional $500,000 in performance bonuses, all of which Barajas signed off on in a letter of agreement pending a physical. But just as Blue Jays GM J.P. Ricciardi prepared to announce the deal, he got a call from agent Dan Lozano of the Beverly Hills Sports Council, who had previously represented Barajas, informing him that the deal was off. Lozano said that he was once again representing Barajas and wanted to reopen negotiations. Outraged, Ricciardi told Lozano to take a hike with his client and turned around and re-signed Gregg Zaun (who wound up supplanting Molina as the Jays' No. 1 catcher last year) to a two-year, $7.25 million contract."

Having blown that deal with the Blue Jays, Barajas was then signed by Gillick to his $3-million deal with the Phillies ($2.5-million 2007 salary and $500,000 club buyout).

link:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/2006/12/24/2006-12-24_tools_of_ignorance_catcher_gets_biggest_.html

krang, i agree with your broadcasting sentiments, but i dont see any way the phillies would hire someone back they had fired previously

I'll drive Barajas up the Jersey Turnpike to the Bronx tomorrow. I'll even spring for the gas & a Big Mac w/ supersized fries for Rod.
Ruiz & Coste can do the job. Unfortunately Gillick will refuse to admit he made a mistake & keep him on the roster.
davthom-Unfortutely I can see Coste being demoted tomorrow if Gordon rejoins the team.
Disgrace-I hope I'm wrong. After Charlie started Coste for 3 straigt-I'm sure Gillick called him into the office & set him straight. Gillick doesn't want the CBP faithful to have a chance to cheer Coste.
FU Gillick.

The weird thing about Barajas is he was born in California, but grew up a Phillies phan, idolizing Mike Schmidt. He still stinks, however.

Oh -- and the above-mentioned New York Daily News piece also said about Barajas' FA signing fiasco, "(j)ust wondering, though, how Barajas) is going to feel when he realizes that he still owes Clifton a commission on the $5.25 million he walked away from with Toronto, as well as the one he has to pay Beverly Hills for the lesser deal."

Was this scenario part of the recipe for Rod's bad 'tude this season?

Oops. That should read "catching" depth.

I would be perfectly fine with Myers for Barajas. Vizcaino would be a small upgrade over a healthy Rosario.

kells -- You hit it on the head when you said above, "(a)fter Charlie started Coste for 3 straigt-I'm sure Gillick called him into the office & set him straight. Gillick doesn't want the CBP faithful to have a chance to cheer Coste."

That is exactly what is going on here -- and it became crystal clear when Coste didn't catch Hamels yesterday.

FU Gillick!

If I may treat SirAlden's list of FA-to-be pitchers more seriously for a moment -- despite his Cordero confusion -- it really does lack quality. I'm not apologizing for Gillick when I say I doubt they'll have a shot at the few top-tier guys. I'd love to see them sign Schilling if he's healthy, but ownership wouldn't stand for it. I don't think any of the mid-level guys will be worth the money; if we had to go after one, Clement might be the most intriguing name there.

On the other hand, Alden is wrong about all of the pitchers on that list representing the loss of a draft pick. Bartolo Colon, for example, is having his second awful year in a row; he's unlikely to require compensation.

What this means, IMO, is that solutions from outside the organization will require skillful trading rather than merely opening the checkbook.

Jason, I just looked up Luiz Vizcaino to remind myself exactly which Vizcaino he is. I remember him now. I'd like him better than Myers except I suspect he's pitching hurt -- a horrible K/BB ration, by far the worst, and worst walk rate, of his career. When he was healthy, he was a lot better than Rosario.

Alby: You're right: Vizcaino has been a decent reliever and would be a definite upgrade over several options in the current bullpen.

The geniuses at MLB and ESPN obviously didn't look at the weather forcast for tonight's game. I just checked it, because I'm getting ready to head down to the ballpark.

By 7pm isolated thunderstorms move into the area.

Idiots.

Braves just finished up the sweep vs. Pittsburgh. With games against Cincinatti & St Louis upcomming-my guess is the Braves will overtake the Mets by next weekend.

I respect the Braves, but screw the Braves!

I'd take Barajas for Myers or Vizciano. I actually can't believe the Yanks would do that trade. Then again my bias against Rod is so strong in the negative aspect that the ghost of Steve Howe would look like an upgrade over that fat ass waste of roster space.

Clout is a propagandist like George W. Bush. He continues to lie that Irac had any connection to 911. Here are his lastest lies in his 2007 offseason bullpen list.

Brian Bruney, Joe Borowski, Bob Wickman, Rafael Soriano, Eric Gagne, Ron Villone, Jon Coutlangus, Chad Bradford, Rudy Seanez, Hideki Okajima, Kyle Snyder, Brendan Donnelly, David Weathers, Aaron Fultz, Justin Miller, Kevin Gregg, David Riske, Justin Speier, Octavio Dotel, Chin-Hui Tsao, Ambiorix Burgos, Lenny DiNardo, Heath Bell, Russ Springer, Ryan Franklin, Al Reyes, Jesus Colome.

Let's sort the list. First he does not mention who we could have offered in trade with our upper Minor Leagues AAA and AA having been destroyed by Wade/Montgomery's philosophy of losing top draft picks for marginal relievers. A philosophy Clout wants to continue. Clout conveniently never tells us who we would have lost to swing these trades.

Pitchers we would have had to trade for: Bob Wickman acquired in trade mid 2006 was not available over the winter, Rafael Soriano, Brendan Donnelly, Kevin Gregg, Ambiorix Burgos.

Make a trade thread and include who we would have lost to swing the trade. I will support you if you start a "try to sign pitching from Japan thread", Hideki Okajima signed from Japan as friend of Dice-K, we could not have signed him.

This leaves:
Brian Bruney 1.49 WHIP this year LOL!
Joe Borowski LEFT: .305 BA VS. RIGHT: .316 BA LOL!
Eric Gagne pitched a total of 2 innings last year for the LA Dodgers 2 herniated disks, only human to have had 2 Tommy John surgeries and signed a 6 million dollar contract
Ron Villone 37 years old 1.57 WHIP last year LOL!
Jon Coutlangus 1.47 WHIP this year, claimed waivers (from SF) DFA 3/06 LOL
Chad Bradford a bust this year 0-4 .355 BA VS. RIGHT: .275 BA 10.5 Million
Rudy Seanez 38 years old 1.70 WHIP last year LOL!
Kyle Snyder 1.65 WHIP last year LOL!
David Weathers great experienced guy, had been with Reds for 3 years, resigned, both the Phillies and the Red Sox tried to sign him.
Aaron Fultz WHIP 1.52 last year LOL!
Justin Miller WHIP 2.143 in 2005 did not pitch in 2006 LOL!
David Riske average guy – average stats, his strikeout total has noticeably declined over the past two seasons, he also is known for allowing home runs at crucial situations that ended up costing his team games, played a minor role with the Red Sox in 2006, mainly appearing in blow-out games before being traded.
Justin Speier not signable, 18M contract Walnut Creek, CA boy signed with LA Angels, 16.0 innings pitched on DL
Octavio Dotel 2.90 WHIP last year LOL!
Chin-Hui Tsao 1.91 WHIP last year LOL!
Lenny DiNardo 2.08 WHIP last year LOL!
Heath Bell 1.68 WHIP last year LOL!
Russ Springer good pitcher 38 years old Type A Free Agent would have cost #1 Draft Pick LHP Joe Savery for only one year.
Ryan Franklin 1.77 WHIP last year LOL!
Al Reyes in 2005 he tore the ligament in his right elbow which required reconstructive surgery he did not pitch in 2006.
Jesus Colome WHIP 1.59 in 2005, pitched only 1/3 of an inning in 2006.
.
Great List Clout you are a propagandist and an obfuscator, repeating inaccurate information over and over. Weathers and Speier were not signable just like Randy Wolf, I would not have lost our #1 draft pick for only one year of 38 year old Russ Springer, Eric Gagne pitched a total of 2 innings last year for the LA Dodgers 2 herniated disks, only human to have had 2 Tommy John surgeries and signed a 6 million dollar contract I would have tried to sign him, don't know if he was signable.

So there we have it, 1 or maybe 2 guys Springer and Gagne that all 30 teams were chasing not the 27 on your list. Typical Clout Lies.

These guys are not the answer to our loss of 650 innings from Garcia, Lieber, Myers, and Gordon. Some of them would have lost our #1 Pick LHP Joe Savery. Put a few good pitchers in your argument and stop posting trash of people with WHIP's worse than Adam Eaton as examples of pitchers we should have signed.

Alby you are right only some of the free agents will lose draft picks I just listed 6 guys I liked to begin discussions.

I also wanted to point out that there are alot of pitchers who are not exciting.

My point all along has been that this off-season Gilick tried the way each one of us would have tried to sign good pitching. However, the talent was so thin, he refused to give up draft picks which I believe is much to his credit.

2007 Jun-Reg Joe Savery P
2007 Jun-Sup Travis d'Arnaud C
2006 Jun-Reg Kyle Drabek P
2006 Jun-Sup Adrian Cardenas SS
2005 Jun-Reg None - - - - - - -
2004 Jun-Reg Greg Golson OF
2003 Jun-Reg None - - - - - - -
This is Gillick's Hand - 4 first round picks in 2 years after 1 first round pick in 3 years!

I would sure as hell have to change my name if this stiff is traded that sucks!

Lineups

Barajas and Dobbs starting tonight.

Phils
1. J Rollins, SS
2. S Victorino, RF
3. C Utley, 2B
4. R Howard, 1B
5. A Rowand, CF
6. P Burrell, LF
7. G Dobbs, 3B
8. R Barajas, C
9. A Eaton, P

Cards
1. D Eckstein, SS
2. S Schumaker, CF
3. A Pujols, 1B
4. C Duncan, LF
5. S Rolen, 3B
6. J Encarnacion, RF
7. A Kennedy, 2B
8. Y Molina, C
9. A Wainwright, P

SirAlden: Why do you keep throwing 2006 stats out there. What are those relief pitchers doing in 2007? Talk about distortion!

Your feeble, distorted defense of Gillick's off-season inaction will find no takers on this site. There were relief pitchers available who could have helped this team this season. One of them could've made the difference between going to the playoffs or staying home again. If that's not the GM's fault, then nothing is. Most of them would not have required losing a draft pick, you moron! End of story.

By the way, the awful horrible Ed Wade, who you say ruined the minor league system, was responsible for Howard, Utley, Rollins Bourn, Victorino, Ruiz, Outman, Carrasco, Happ, Kendrick. I will be interested to see if the payoff is as good under your beloved Pat Gillick.

CJ: Am I being too negative here? Flag me if I am.

It's funny. You'd think that with all the time Sir Alden spends dragging up inane statistics for middling relievers, he'd at least put SOME effort into sentence structure and punctuation.

SirAlden,

First of all, that's the second time I've seen you imply that Justin Speier went to Anaheim becaues he's from Walnut Creek. Walnut Creek, which is 10 minutes from my house, is 365 miles from Anaheim -- which is greater than the distance between Philadelphia & Portland, Maine.

Second, David Riske is not an "average" reliever. He is one of the best setup men in baseball, by any statistical measure -- regardles of whether you use 2006 stats or 2007 stats. And he could have been signed for less money than they're paying Rod Barajas, and without giving out one of those multi-year contracts that you find so offensive.

Third, let's apply your own logic to some of Gillick's signings. You say we should not have gone after Gagne, because he had only 2 IP last year & was coming off an injury. I assume you feel the same way about Jayson Werth, who didn't play at all last year? You also cite a slew of relievers whose WHIPS were not to your liking last year. So how do you feel about the Jose Mesa signing? His WHIP was 2.14 at the time we signed him & he had the same WHIP as Aaron Fultz last year. What about the Adam Eaton signing? His 2006 WHIP was higher than several of the guys on your list, PLUS, to sign him, Gillick had to violate two of your most cherished rules: don't pay guys a lot of money & don't sign them for multiple years. So, applying your own criteria to the signing, I assume you would agree with me that this was an idiotic move in the extreme?

As if responding to our conversations yesterday, here's props to ESPN for focusing on Howard, Utley, Hamels, and Rollins as the 4 stars of the future of this team just now in their opening montage. I think the best thing to fix Rollins' image in comparison to Reyes would be to move him to the #2 hole ala Jeter - his production fits better there and it makes more sense with him following either Bourn or Victorino then followed up by Utley and Howard.

As I said yesterday - we are lucky to have Rollins to Utley to Howard hopefully for years to come as the premier shortstop combination in the game.

While listening to ESPN radio during the pregame, Buster Olney read an email that he had just recieved from a scout who was at the CWS/BAL game today, saying that he clocked Contreras between 87-91 (if I remember that correctly) and that the Phils (along with several other teams) had a scout in attendance.

verdeforce: I think J-Roll would be superb in the 2 hole. Vic strikes out too much for a leadoff guy, but Bourn could do it.

DC fan: Contreras would not be my first choice (or even in my top 5), but coming in new to the NL he could have some success. He certainly would be a huge upgrade over Durbin.

I know Joe Morgan gets a lot of criticism for his announcing and today he did call Eaton a lefty; but I will always love how he played for our '83 World Series team and I love that he just echoed my point that J-Roll was by far the most deserving player that did not get invited to the All Star game this year.

I'd rather it be Bourn, but they'd have to play him everyday....

I don't disagree Clout, but I just wanted to pass along the tidbit, which Olney reported as something fresh.

Looks like we'll see our first test of the second half. How do we respond after giving up two runs?

These first 30 pitches are murder for Eaton - maybe they should have him throw longer warm up sessions before each start?!? ;-)

some guys arms don't work that way... it's weird, and if you warmed him up hard, he'd come up short and only be able to go 3-4 innings every start.

not ideal.

praying or the first 30 pitches may be the best bet.

Thanks for that recap, Verdeforce - I don't have cable, so I appreciate your description of ESPN's coverage.

As for your suggestion that Rollins move to the 2 hole: it might be a perfectly sound baseball move, and even eliminate some people's grounds for criticism of Rollins as a leadoff hitter, but I doubt it would suddenly catapult Rollins into the esteem nervous white baseball fans reserve for Utley. There's more going on than a sober, race-blind assessment of skills going on.


To follow up from my post from yesterday, I'm not on a mission to convince anyone that race and culture play a role in Phillies fans' reception of Rollins. I just wanted to throw the question into the conversation, and I appreciate the thoughtful responses that people made. We can disagree on how much race (or culture) is a factor in deciding who is a fan favorite. But those who claim that at this is a color-blind society are either willfully naive, or they live in a different America than I do.

The only thing that will prevent the 10,000 loss on national TV will be if that massive thunderstorm comes before the 5th inning.

Ironically, the ESPN broadcast has focused on racial issues in baseball for the last half inning, albeit in relation to Gary Sheffield and Kenny Lofton's comments about Joe Torre being racist towards them.

Great hustle by Victorino - bases are now loaded for Utley.

Oh well - ground out by Utley. Kalas is headed to join Morgan and Miller in the booth for the next inning.

I like Victorino's game, especially in ESPN games and think he might be next year's 6 or 7 hitter. If Rowand leaves to greener pastures (monetarily) in K.C. or Chi-town and the Phillies are unable to unload Burrell - I would think Bourn would play center and Shane would be kept in right because of his arm with Werth as the first benc option.

Its weird, as a Phillies fan, I think the thing I'm most proud of is Harry Kalas. Kalas puts these ESPN guys to shame.

another quality start from eaton

and another. pure gold!

how in the world does eaton get paid $8.5 million per year?

siralden, any good flyball pitchers out there on the FA list for gillick to acquire this offseason?

In Vegas this weekend and Eaton is going to help me recoup from losses from the blackjack table. Wainwright at +120 was just too attractive to pass up and I knew Eaton was guaranteed to give up at least 3 or 4 runs today.

Mesa with a 1-2-3 inning? Hard to believe it, Harry. It's almost a lock now that we'll loose.

I was out at a function and saw on my cell phone on mlb.com that Coste had replaced Barajas at catcher. What were the circumstances of that substitution -- was it a simple double switch, or was it something else?

If some of you read every word of this blog, you'll recall that I was expecting my first child this season, well she was born during the All-Star break and in spite of all of this talk about 10,000 losses, I've enjoyed that she's never been alive for a Phillies loss. Alas, it looks like tonight may end that joyous dream that they would continue winning and never lose again....

I do have 3 questions about this unwanted attention on the team - has any team won 10,000? how far away is the next closest baseball team to 10,000? and which team is that?

Pretty simple - Barajas had the last at bat of the previous inning and Eaton gave up 2 gopher balls so they brought in Coste so that Condrey wouldn't be up to bat to start the next inning.

Bases loaded and only one out for Gillick's greatest acquisition so far - let's go Dobbsy!

I don't think anyone on this team, not even Ruiz, has worse at-bats with men on base than Greg Dobbs.

Davthom, do you get text alerts if Coste gets put into a game or were you just following the game on your phone?

Another solid game by Eaton and his personal catcher, Rod Barajas. Two great pickups.

Pretty sad our 2nd best starter is Kyle Kendrick. Nothing against him, but he shouldnt be our 2nd best starter.

i guess this is going to be 10,000 tonight.

They may lose this one 10,000-0.

this is really really sad

Verdeforce -- Thanks for the explanation.

VOR -- The latter -- I was just following the game on my Sprint phone on the very limited Sprint version of mlb.com boxscore -- I don't get text alerts and I'm not in the "Iphone" club. My cell phone is pretty basic.

I typed that BEFORE Kennedy's HR -- jeez.

Looks like Sanches has his ticket out of here when Gordon comes back. Mesa is safe for awhile.

Boy this crap we have sent to the mound - nEaton, Condry, Mesa and Sanchez. It is criminal to the fans at the game that they are given no option to win the game. Also, Helms has returned to his usual choke status. Leaving a ton on base over the last three days.

Will the send Coste down and keep Brian "homers R Us' Sanchez when they activate Gordon?

"...Be sure to tune in for "Home Run Derby" tonight immediately preceding the ESPY's here on ESPN and ESPN HD."

Thank goodness "Flash" Gordon will be back tomorrow - this pen needs every bit of help - so for the west coast trip do we expect Gordon returns to the closer role with Alfonseca in the 8th and Madson in the 6th/7th role?

at this point Charlie should let Sanchez finish the game and rest the rest of the bullpen. Too bad, Anderson "only can throw a fast ball" was sent down, this is a good time for him to eat up some innings.

Coste getting it started.

Its just so effin fitting that the 10,000th loss is on national tv and its a blow out.

I think it would be awesome if davthom got an alert every time Coste got into a game or came up to bat.

Neither Condrey, Mesa nor Sanches has any business in the major leagues. They would not make the Devil Rays.

i think it would be awesome if the function davthom was at was the coste fan club monthly meeting.

gordon's not really going to help this club if he comes back and is just another pitcher that gives up runs. that's kind of what i'm expecting, anyway.

I just sit here and think just how much we needed Eaton to have a quality start and the guy is just a bum. If every one is looking for pitching, let's dump him and his salary.

Jesus, Sanchez is awful. Mesa seems to be rubbing off on the rest of the bullpen.

Checking in for the first time tonight. Anyone care to explain why I see 10 hits, six runs, four innings next to Adam Eaton's name in the boxscore? I'm about good and sick of his sorry efforts. That's what you'd expect from Durbin for god's sake. He's been pathetic. I was 100 percent incorrect in thinking he'd help the team.

Sanches has done an excellent job of keeping guys off the bases tonight.

Quote of the night Casey

Justinb Germano moved to 6-3 tonight with 6 1/3 shutout IP.

Joe Borowski picked up his AL-leading 26th save tonight. He now has 26 saves in 29 opps.

Percival's era has been pretty good so far since the Phils saved a couple hundred thousand and chose Mesa over him.

Phils look very undisciplined at the plate.

Eaton is really killing us and one would think he gets lit up at home but his home and away numbers are pretty similar (both ugly).

What stands out is that LH hitters are torching him and that he walks alot of them (LH / 46 inn - 29 walks, 11 HR, 7.33 ERA, 1.78 WHIP vs. RH / 57 inn - 19 walks, 6 HR, 4.37 ERA, 1.27 WHIP).

BUT his biggest problem is not getting ahead in the count.

When ahead in the count (40 inn) he has no walks & 0.64 WHIP. However when he is behind in the count (27 inn) he has walked 48 batters & 3.07 WHIP!!!!

This was retrieved from MLB.com stats and I am not quite sure how they really calculate it but it makes sense.

I believe his stuff is decent but where it hits the mitt is his undoing.

clout: sometimes the best moves are the ones you don't make. because we didn't sign borowski, we have sanches.

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EST. 2005

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